[xyzcf]

I will not argue with you Anjae.

I have as much education, knowledge and experience to base my observations on as you do or any other member of HS.

I have stated my views.

You do not have to keep pointing out that you think I am wrong, as you do to so many other posters.

I actually do know  personally male LBSers whose wives have been severely sexually abused as children.

This thread is not a DEBATE thread. It is for members to share information that they think other HS members would find useful.

Stop turning everything into an "I know better than you" drama.

[Anjae]

I have as much education, knowledge and experience to base my observations on as you do or any other member of HS.

Indeed. That is why I asked you. If you are presenting your ideas, you surely have how to back them up.

You do not have to keep pointing out that you think I am wrong, as you do to so many other posters

I didn't say you were wrong. I asked for backup on your ideas. I tend to supply back up on why I think something is the way I do.

I actually do know  personally male LBSers whose wives have been severely sexually abused as children.

I said on my post some MLCers were certainly abused, including sexually. It does not mean all, or most, MLCers were. Many people were sexually abused and never had a MLC. Why?

Why is it so hard to answer why and thinking which is the reason, or reasons that lead some that are abused to have a MLC and many that are abused not to have a MLC?

I certainly do not know better, but I tend to present facts, evidence and use neuroscience/neurobiology. If people are going to claim MLCers were abused as children, including sexually, I think it would be a good idea to be able to back it up with something palpable.

Otherwise, it is saying MLCers, and that includes myself, Mr J, my cousin that had MLC, my aunt that had MLC, all the real life MLCers I know, all the MLCers of every LBS on HS were abused, maybe even sexually, even if they were not.

I really would like people to answer instead of becoming defensive.

As indicated by the white balloon with the word discussion, this is a discussion thread. Or a green icon one, since both icons are on the thread. In any case, we have always discussed on this links/blogs/articles threads as well as on discussion and green icon threads.

Why is it that of late we cannot discuss and debate and people bring up ideas, even certainties, and then do not answer when asked about them?

You surely understand how upsetting it is to have people saying MLCers are all abused people when one is a former MLCer and no such thing happened.

[xyzcf]

I have NEVER said that all MLCers are abused people. The evidence of so many stories here does indicate that there are some childhood issues.

I base my theory on Eric Erickson's 8 stages of psychosocial development.

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

We share information and as I have previous stated we have vastly different ideas about MLC.

As I said, I will not argue with you.

[Anjae]

Everyone has childhood issues. It still does not explain why some have a MLC and others don't.

Maybe you haven't exactly claim all MLCers have been abused, but writting things like MLCer are abused people is more or less the same, isn't it?

And Brain does it a lot. He says MLCers are abused people. Not some, or a few MLCers.

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

I did. And I stand by it. MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD, not even those who have been seen my a professional and they surely do not tend to be diagnosed with dissociative disorder (a very rare controversial diagnose for the reason I have previously explained).

If you read the threads, as I am certain you have, you know MLCers tend to be diagnosed with depression or bipolar. And that there are several LBS that were diagnosed with PTSD. It does not mean a few MLCers aren't diagnosed with PTDS or C-PTSD, but some is not most or all.

It wasn't meant to be encouraging but I thought it might be enlightening for those who wonder why MLC takes so long.

I don't know what this means to you/how do you read it. But after Brain's post with the image, to me it reads as the explanation for why MLC takes so long is PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder, even if most MLCers are not diagnosed with those issues.

If most MLCers are not diagnosed with such issues, does it make sense to claim those are the reasons why MLC takes so long? I would say it does not.

I pointed the fact out, I would expect Brain would debate the matter/explain/supply further information or back up for the afirmation.

I am not the one posting PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder is the reason why MLC takes so long. How does Brain knows? Does he has our MLCers diagnoses? Does he has the diagnoses or former MLCer, mine and my cousin's ones included -I was diagnosed with situational depression, my cousin with depression, schozophrenia, borderline, bipolar, psychosis, but never with PTSD, PTSD or dissociative disorder.

Depression aside, my cousin had none of those things. Threrapists and doctors simply did not recognise MLC. He has been fine for years and back to normal.

Same for claiming MLCers are abused people. A thing, as I said, Brain does a lot and has done over the years. With what proof?

Why does Brain uses his diagnose and how much it has taken him and applies it to others, as he did on reply #134? Our MLCers aren't Brain. They do not have his issues.

No one, not even the worlds's best neuroscientist/neurobiolgist/therapist/psychiatrist knows what causes MLC and why, for some, it takes so long. Someone posting the certainty of why MLC takes so long seems odd.

[barbiedoll]

MLCers do not tend to be diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD,

.

Do you have stats or evidence that this has been proven ? Or where you got this information from?  Is this factual or just your opinion based on your own observations?  Just curious.

[Anjae]

I have HS threads since its start (thousands), thousands of threads on other MLC forums and real life.

Most people don't tend to say their MLCer have been diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD or dissociative disorder and I do not know any real life former or current MLCer (and I know dozens) who was.

I am certain someone/a few on HS has a MLCer that was diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD, but that is not what LBS tend to say their MLCer was diagnosed with, if they were diagnosed, something.

Not all MLCers have diagnoses. I am talking about professional diagnoses, not what we thing it may be/they may have.

There are several LBS that were diagnosed with PTSD/C-PTSD, Treasur being one of them.

No one has any stats concerning any aspec of MLC. But we have thousands of threads  (and not only on HS) and real life experience.

I would say that is more than enough considering many books and articles about MLC were written based on a sample of one and no one seems to question or be upset with it.

On the other hand, it is profundly disturbing to claim MLCers, not most, or some, have been abused, including sexually, or suffer from this or that, even those who have been professionally diagnosed with something else or have no diagnose at all.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

Just for the record, regarding childhood abuse, my wife and I have both been going through what most on here would consider an MLC and I have good reason to believe both of us experienced childhood sexual abuse. That doesn't mean it's a causative relationship but I believe in my case that it is.

Treasur, my therapist and I were discussing earlier today how EMDR often produces residual benefits like you described. I did have two EMDR sessions with my first trauma therapist. After the first session ended I experienced rapid fire memories from my childhood occurring for well over an hour afterwards. It was very strange and I don't remember any of them but he told me that those memories were all being processed and stored as an after effect of the EMDR session.

Then my second EMDR session with my first therapist blew up and I wound up having a 30 minute out of body dissociative experience. Eventually, we learned that I have a form of dissociative identity disorder called OSDD Type 1b and she referred me to my current therapist. He specializes in treating patients with dissociative identity disorders.

I've learned from him that traditional therapy doesn't work for me because I have dissociated parts and these parts have to be included in the treatment. It's a little more complicated than treating PTSD. These parts each hold part of the trauma so treatment doesn't work if the traumatized parts aren't included. We've identified 8 dissociated parts and he has a treatment plan for each of them. Four of my parts are 6 years old or younger, 1 is 22 years old, and the rest don't have an identifiable age.

Sorry if I started something controversial. I'm just trying to share my experience. I've been through an MLC, I've experienced the fog, in fact I continue to occasionally experience the fog, and I've been diagnosed, am being treated, and I think I'm making progress. I believe my wife would receive a similar diagnosis but she hasn't seen anyone for treatment and she doesn't appear to be making any progress but she did bring me some cookies today.

BTW, I don't see Anjae's posts because I have her blocked but, regarding the sentence she wrote that Barbie quoted about MLCers not being diagnosed with PTSD or C-PTSD, I have to agree with Anjae for two reasons.

First, MLCers rarely seek treatment, generally preferring to self-medicate, so they are rarely diagnosed with anything.

Second, most therapists aren't qualified to diagnose and treat even relatively simple trauma related disorders like PTSD, much less complicated disorders like C-PTSD, OSDD, and DID. I'm very fortunate to be seeing the top two trauma therapists in my region. Both are teaching faculty and most of the trauma therapists in my region have been taught by them. Even so, my first therapist referred me to the man I'm seeing now because my case is so complex. His specialty is internal family systems therapy. Google it. It's very interesting. He's writing a book about applying IFS therapy to dissociative disorder treatment. Maybe I'll be in it.

You don't discuss, you started by telling MBIB basically that his posts don't apply to MLC.

This is part of XYZ's response to one of Anjae's posts. I'm referencing it to illustrate why I have blocked Anjae's posts. I seldom find anything worthwhile in Anjae's posts. Life's too short to spend reading posts that bring nothing interesting to the table. I hope that anyone who feels my posts don't apply to MLC will take advantage of their ability to block my posts.

Speaking of short, I have a class to teach in less than 7 hours so I guess I'd better wrap this up. Goodnight to everyone from all of my little parts. We're all going to bed now, even the part that's afraid to go to bed.

[Treasur]

Apparently there is a school of neuroscience looking at the relationship between developmental trauma, the brain and psychotherapy. https://www.psychotherapy.net/interview/allan-schore-neuroscience-psychotherapy and https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2016/may/why-bad-experiences-are-remembered-out-context

[Nerissa]

FOO issues alone cannot be the sole root of MLC. Many people with FOO issues never have a MLC. Even what I have managed to observe all MLCers have, anxiety, stress and depression cannot be the root. Many people have those things and never have a MLC. Those three things will lead to the type of thinking and actions we see in MLCers, but why do those things only lead some into MLC?

Because the environment acts upon inborn temperament, which differs in each of us.  Or there may be mitigating factors such as a grandparent or mentor who helps ‘right the boat.’

Anjae I think you are right to be cautious about therapy because, as described by my therapist, it is like a pyramid scam - swamped at the bottom with inadequate practitioner, with the better concentrated higher up.  Nevertheless, there is plenty of evidence that it works.

As for Freud - well he is not obsolete.  He died almost 100 years ago so his ideas are developed and superseded in some cases , but the UK NHS spends millions of its scarce resources on training therapists in Psychodynamic techniques which are still based very firmly on Freudian ideas.  His followers developed Object relations theory which is the basis of attachment theory.  Now developments in neuroscience are being integrated and the most famous practitioners of psychoanalysis and attachment combined with neuroscience are Alan Schore  at hospital of UC LA and Peter Fonagy, professor at University College London and Directornof the Anna Freud centre.

Mlc people aren’t being diagnosed with c ptsd because they aren’t presented to be diagnosed.  And if there were then maybe not to the right calibre of therapist.  Some
May well have it.  And there is no way of knowing what kind of childhood anyone had in reality because we aren’t present for the minutiae of day to day life.  Not would
Most of us recognise misattuned parenting if we did. Parents don’t have to be a usive to cause damage.

[FIRETRUCK]

Such a pity. I was reading this with great interest until the last couple of paragraphs from Brain. And wondered whether this
was his 6 yr old child posting.
You sounded rather superior Brain, and dismissive and unkind, in your dig towards Anjae. Ring a bell? Happy people don't feel the need to say things like that. Simple. So you've blocked Anjae because she seldom says anything worthwhile, yet here you are in agreement with her?
Firetruck