[Anjae]

How is MammaBear, gosh she was funny...

Good for all we know.

I do not believe that any gracious god would not want us to grow and learn our entire lives, and I think that being an LBS opens the door to explore other relationships and learn from them, so that if or when you are ready to accept your spouse back, you will also share that, and KNOW even deeper that you choose each other, with all knowing intention, not because it is your only default.

The way I see it, one can grow both by standing for life or by being open to/have other relationships. There will be different types of growing, but both are growing.

I am not standing, never was. I dated and had a boyfriend. I didn't grow that much with those things. But I did grow a lot when on my own by choice. The choice was not because of Mr J or his MLC, it was for me. I needed time just for myself. The dating and boyfriend didn't brought much growth, I think they brought regress, and if I keep dating I wouldn't learn much since dating was more or less the same thing everytime.

There is a lot of growth possible on our own.

The dating was fun, very, very fun, but was keeping me stuck in the fun. The boyfriend was nice, but was a going nowhere relationship. Nevertheless, an important one and the necessary one at the time. If I learned anything with the dating and the boyfriend is that I become even more picky than I was before.

Most men don't have interest for me other than as friends. I quickly tired of them, so they would not do for something serious and long lasting.

I am not good to play mummy and nice wife, and many guys seem to be after that. I also don't stick around for people that can't intellectually interest me. And lets not mention physical intimacy. When you've had filet mignon most are MacDonald's burger. But I am certain the magical unicorn will one day show. 

Not sure I would share much about the dating and boyfriend would I have reunite with Mr J. Probably all I would have to say would be: the dating was fun, the boyfriend OK, the physical intimacy not that good (or I may omit that part).

I am far more like you, Stayed, LP and Nah than like Mitzpah, Onward, Serenity and others. Or was. At a point, that me wasn't working for me anymore. Somethings needed ajusting and tone down.

Tone down does not equal not saying things, just changing the way/tone they are said. And learn to adjust the message to the situation/person. Something I wasn't good at all. I was as blunt as one could be, here and in real life. Can't say it helped much. If anything, mostly in real life, is caused damages. Preventable ones. A bit of diplomacy would had worked far better.

The whole you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A concept that used to be alien to me, but that, in fact, works.

The big growth for me here was to be a little less like I used to be, but remain myself, findind more balance. It was not easy at all.

Now I think I am middle ground, going a little to my old self at times, and that is good.

[The lighthouse]

I've just reached the 7 year mark as a LBS so I suppose I could be described as an old timer now.

after 4 years on this board, my lived experience is that bullying behaviour is defended with the rationale that  “well, that’s so-and-so being so and so, and sure they are tough some times, but they also help, so that’s OK”.  Which basically excuses the behaviour because the end justifies the means.

But the end does not justify the means.

Particularly not on a forum where many people have already suffered relationship trauma, and have had to learn to discern signs of abuse, including emotional abuse.

Make no mistake, a personal attack is emotional abuse.

What’s a personal attack?
The Urban Dictionary has a pretty good definition, which identifies it as a logical fallacy that demeans your opponent instead of refuting their argument.

Personal attacks include challenges that question someone’s intelligence, values, integrity, motivations, decisions and so forth.

I think it is more than fair to say some of the conversation on the recently closed thread was replete with personal attacks.

I would also argue that using any means possible to get someone to do something in the way and timeline you think they should does not come from a spirit of helping others; it speaks to imposing one’s own will and choices on others.

It is stated over and over and over again on this forum that we cannot save our spouses: that we need to let them go.

It follows, then, that the same detachment to an outcome or timeline and letting go of the need to have LBS’ follow a particular path to healing would also apply.

There is tremendous room for many different views, and experiences and approaches on this forum.  But I for one continue to hope that behaviour that is unkind, judgemental, psychologically damaging or personally attacking and/or demeaning is seen for what it is without excuse or encouragement.

I agree with every word Onward!

The excuses and encouragement of a select few forum members from others saddens, sickens and angers me more than whatever was said to start the conflict.  Again, as so many times in the past, this all started with one person airing their views.  Coming back to defend and explain themselves should have been enough, but there are some that swarm to conflict like bees to honey.  They are always the same people and I doubt that will ever change, especially when people then come along to defend the behaviour.  Very sad indeed and I for one will never respect that.

NO-ONE can understand or judge anyone because we do not know or live anyone's lives but our own.
If someone is asking for support we need to give it.
If someone is asking for advice we need to give it BUT temper it and remember what a responsibility that is because the person maybe particularly vulnerable at the time of asking and also remember that we were once that vulnerable, even if we don't feel that now

IF someone is asking for 2x4's or even if you feel the need to give them and its what the LBS may need that we do it with sensitivity and responsibility and ensure the person is PREPARED they may be in boxing gloves not fur gloves..

And if someone is just posting and not asking for anything but just journaling then we have no right to go in with both feet and rip them apart because of some personal issues

Above all we must remember there are no points to prove here.....it should only be about supporting someone who is or has been through what any one of us may have gone through or are still going through
The outside world does not understand MLC , if we in turn don't understand or respect ,each other after all we have been through or going through then what hope do we have?
Temperance is a good word to bare in mind

Well said 1T!

Tone down does not equal not saying things, just changing the way/tone they are said. And learn to adjust the message to the situation/person. Something I wasn't good at all. I was as blunt as one could be, here and in real life. Can't say it helped much. If anything, mostly in real life, is caused damages. Preventable ones. A bit of diplomacy would had worked far better.

The whole you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A concept that used to be alien to me, but that, in fact, works.

The big growth for me here was to be a little less like I used to be, but remain myself, findind more balance. It was not easy at all.

Now I think I am middle ground, going a little to my old self at times, and that is good.

Yes I have seen this in you Anjae and for this you have my respect.  I have never felt that you are deliberately being personal or blunt to cause conflict or to hurt feelings.  I have always felt you have good intentions.

[LisaLives]

The way I see it, one can grow both by standing for life or by being open to/have other relationships. There will be different types of growing, but both are growing.

I am not standing, never was. I dated and had a boyfriend. I didn't grow that much with those things. But I did grow a lot when on my own by choice. The choice was not because of Mr J or his MLC, it was for me. I needed time just for myself. The dating and boyfriend didn't brought much growth, I think they brought regress, and if I keep dating I wouldn't learn much since dating was more or less the same thing everytime.

There is a lot of growth possible on our own.

You can grow a lot on your own, but you can never grow in a relationship without another person. 

I have had three "more than dating" relationships since BD.  I went on about 100 bad first and second dates, there are some funny stories there...  Three people made it to hometowns (but there were no beach excursions, and absolutely NO group dates).  And the things each of those men have taught me are beyond invaluable.  Things about me, that all guys are different, things about guns and hunting, IT, cars, insurance, and cooking, and all the things that are important to them, that had nothing to do with relationships.  Even all my dates taught me things like that.  One helped me get a job, and I think seven I am still FB friends with and love running into, even though we were not a perfect match.

I am in a wonderful, committed, hope to be lifetime R now. But, never say never, IF my H were to return, I would be a better wife to him the second time around, AND I would insist he be a better H, because I now know what that looks like.  I know some of you think your M's were perfect, and maybe they were, in your book, and maybe they were in his, until the day it wasn't anymore, but for sure, they leave to find something, and when they do, they find lots of things, whether it's a new career, hobby, or friend, and you will need to reconcile all of that. 

I have been posting on Shining Star's processing anger thread and she just made the observation that maybe getting unstuck means admitting her M is over.  I think that is a huge part of moving on.  Even if it's not growth in a new R, simply rearranging the living room means change that your spouse might not like, and there is a great fear in that.  I know there was for me, fear that if I changed too much, he might not want me back...  That's why standing does require a slightly different mindset, I think.  It doesn't have to, of course, but when, in the back of your mind, you are holding a place for a person, you can't fill that space with other people or things.  We do it with family and friends too, it's not a bad thing, but it is a "thing," for better or worse.  Love and light, ll   

[in it]

Lisa are you saying you would want to reconcile with your ex if he wanted to and dump this other relationship?
If so does the guy you are in this relationship with know that?

[Songanddance]

I am in a wonderful, committed, hope to be lifetime R now. But, never say never, IF my H were to return, I would be a better wife to him the second time around, AND I would insist he be a better H, because I now know what that looks like.

Umm confused.  Would appreciate you clarifying Lisa?  What I am inferring is that you are happy and content in your new potentially lifetime R and yet would reconcile with your H if he wanted to?   

Surely, in my very black and white thinking, your H wouldn't feature at all in your future because you now have a "wonderful committed and hope to be lifetime R"

Confused.....

[LisaLives]

I have no desire to reconcile with my ex, and I think I actually found a guy who will be with me forever.  But, I also thought that once before, so if life has taught me anything, it is never to say never. 

But more importantly, I am just trying to say, to others, that all situations are different, and that moving on to a new relationship, whether just to date, or with your whole heart and soul doesn't close all doors to reconciliation.  There are people who reconcile after 10, 20, or 30 years.  My H could have been on that duck boat in Branson the other day, and exH's wife could leave him next year for her next conquest... 

None of us have any idea what our future holds, and less what any other person's future holds, so I am living MY best life NOW, not waiting for some best idea of a future, not hitching onto anyone else's wagon, just living NOW.   Love and light, ll

[Thundarr]

And lo the prodigal son returns.  As part of the class of 2011 I’d say I qualify as an old-timer here, and pretty much in life in general as I start to get closer to 5-0 and am now a very proud grandfather.

My journey on here began in the early days, but before I made it to this little oasis I spent some time on the ridiculously confrontational DivorceBusting MLC page and the gone but not forgotten LifeTwo site where I met several friends who I stay in regular contact with today.  I thank God for RCR and HS along with all the wonderful people who I’ve gained even more respect for over the years. 

When I first arrived in July 2011 I was at a point where I thought I could tackle the MLC Beast using my experience and education in mental health.  I chronicled my journey through frequent postings and dismissed any naysayers who told me it was beyond my ability.  I honestly didn’t understand what I was dealing with or the limitations of this human condition, but my journey of discovery and exploration have made me infinitely better as a therapist and single dad.

I was here the night I came closest to ending my life.  It was the night I helped XW move into her new house and listened to her talk about how great the OM was, who I was in denial about, and had it not been for Stayed, Summer and several others who were on and who talked to me throughout the night I would probably have put a gun to my head.  I’m not ashamed to admit that now, and ironically I’m glad I went to that dark place because every time I meet with a suicidal client I can connect with them.  When you can honestly tell someone you know what it’s like to sit in the dark and feel that not even God cares you can reach them in a way you never could.  You can show them they’re not alone and that it does get better.  I’m a great therapist now because I’m genuine.  Not fake genuine but real since I have that life experience.  It truly is surreal.

There were many days that the postings of MammaBear, Little Chief, Wed and so many others were what kept me from going back to that dark place.  I laughed with them and loved hearing about their journeys even though they were as painful as mine as they could find the humor and silver linings I often didn’t see.  XW was about as textbook as they come but I didn’t see it at the time.  I laughed at the crazy stories about what MLCers say and do, such as the one who wanted the OW to sleep at the foot of the bed and help with chores, along with the times I had the old 2x4 from Honour, Doc, Stayed and whomever.  Fun times!

Today XW and I are in a good place.  Not together, may never be again, but in a good place.  The birth of our grandson has brought us closer and I would dare say we may even be friends.  She asks the kids about me shenever she’s with them and makes suggestions that seem to be out of genuine caring.  I still love her.  Always will.  But to me my stand ended when the kids told me they didn’t want her to come home.  I knew then that she had hurt them a great deal and that they had reached a point where they could verbalize it.  They no longer trusted or felt safe with her.  That’s changed over the past few months as she’s made more of an effort to connect with them, and is with them now ironically.  She volunteers to help out with transportation and financial things and puts effort into co-parenting.  Would I take her back if she ever wanted to?  Maybe.  I honestly can’t say for sure until that situation arises.  It would have to be a well thought out decision even though we are still considered married by our church.  I’m Catholic, btw, and HB is Pentecostal if I remember her telling me.  I’ve dated about 20 women, slept with eight, and talked to hundreds but none of them will ever be to me what XW is.

Anyway, sorry for the long post but want to say I’m proud to be part of this reunion thread of sorts.  Lots of great people here I never would have met if not for this site so that’s just one more reason I’m thankful for this journey. 

[Ready2Transform]

I read it as hypothetical. Most things posted on this site are hypothetical.

I've had those thoughts of, "What if 20 years down the road, we meet again and all of this is so far behind us?". Very unlikely, but speaks more of my desire to put distance between this situation and a happy future than to any doors left open. And after a few days of nasty emails, certainly, that door is locked and sealed in the short term! But I think even those of us not standing can understand it. Even Anjae has made comments about the what if of MrJ, and he was physically abusive and one of the longer term ones here.

[Thundarr]

Forgot to say hello to Ready2, Stayed, X, Confused, Anjae, LL, Wondering and all the rest who I’ve shared this journey with and especially OP (and his blasted “gift of time” references, lol).  I’m feeling nostalgic this morning since 2011 feels like 20 years ago now.  Lol

Also want to say I completely agree with LL about reconciliation.  No one I’ve been out or slept with has made me lose what I had for XW.  I guess that means it’s real, or possibly that I’m neurotic. 

[Thunder]

Thundarr, I remember when I came on the board and confused everyone by our similar names.   Took them awhile to figure that one out.    They called you Thunder and me Thundarr. 

I choose Thunder because it was the name of one of my favorite bands, btw.

Congrats on the new grandchild and glad you two have become friends.  Also much nicer for the kids.