[Nas]

 Also, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion that there is no comparison and that we are all hurting. And I’m entitled to my opinion, which is that there is a very big difference between clingers and vanishers,  between those who are financially abused in those who aren’t, between those who deal with personality disordered affair partners and those who don’t...etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
  And of course we are all going to make comparisons between our situations. That’s what happens when you have so many different situations, so many different personalities and so many different opinions. The trick is to keep it a conversation and not an argument when making those comparisons. But to simply say that we are all hurting in the same way is not correct. A person who is not been financially abused has no idea how a person who has been financially abused feels. A person who has not ever been physically assaulted has no idea how someone who has been physically assaulted feels.

 I personally have been given advice by well meaning people who have chastised me for my approach to my situation, when their situation is the exact opposite. Specifically, I have been told more than once by more than one LBS who has a financially responsible MLCer That I need to get over my “bitterness” about my financial situation. These are the kind of things that I think we all need to agree that we don’t know how we would feel unless we were actually going through this specific situation.

[xyzcf]

Sadly isn't this the case?  How many times do,you read a post and shake your head in disbelief xyzcf?

Actually, I shake my head when posters do not seem to understand that there is something really wrong with their loved ones, I shake my head at how so few people are faithful to the sacrament of marriage and I shake my head at children who are being exposed to new partners on both parent's side.

That is however my own personal world view...it's not a surprise to people who have known me for a very long time here.

I however do not have the right to expect that others will share my beliefs, although I am convinced that there would be more reconciliations if people could wait it out..no proof of that but just common sense to me....that if there is nothing to come back to, then that would deter the MLCer from even making an attempt. That if the LBSer is hateful towards their MLCer, common sense tells me that they would not ever wish to return.

That is pretty different from people who feel that they need to feel they are losing us if they ever try and return. One belief really isn't right or wrong...

Yes, let's get back on track by all means.

[BrenM]

 I personally have been given advice by well meaning people who have chastised me for my approach to my situation, when their situation is the exact opposite. Specifically, I have been told more than once by more than one LBS who has a financially responsible MLCer That I need to get over my “bitterness” about my financial situation. These are the kind of things that I think we all need to agree that we don’t know how we would feel unless we were actually going through this specific situation.

Nas - If I do not have experience in a specific situation, or if I have the exact opposite situation, I read the thread and respectfully do not comment.  I cannot comment - I have no experience to contribute and any post would be meaningless to the LBS.

You will notice that I comment frequently about Vanishers, financial abuse and abandonment of kids.  These are my areas of experience....NOT EXPERTISE but experience based on my story.

I think we all have seen comments that we just shake our heads at.  Posters medically diagnosing Mlcers with medical conditions and even recently a LBS going through current major reconnection issues a couple of posters questioned the Mlcers  sexuality perference - I am sure this knocked the socks off the poor LBS.  A poster can offer a suggestion but not be enforceful and show respect and compassion about the situation at hand.

[Thunder]

I guess just reading this thread lately I don't see where "HS" has gone off track. Not at all.  Just some "threads" that have gone off track. 

The vast majority of the threads on HS are just fine and very supportive of everyone.

Maybe if you find a thread, or a certain poster negative, ignore it/them and find more positives threads to follow.
Lord knows we have enough of them.   

[Ready2Transform]

This healing process isn't linear, just as the issues facing most LBS aren't static. Any input is good input because I think most of us have on some level dealt with not being heard. If you're reading, if you care - that's good. Of course no advice will be perfect. But I agree that compassionate opinions that don't try to shove advice down someone's throat are good (but I don't think that really happens that often here).

I would say a fair number of us were, or even are, accommodators. AND controllers. So by even holding back here so we don't "rock the boat" or hurt someone's feelings, or present any form of conflict or contrast, just perpetuates something that likely hasn't worked for us. Standing itself, especially with clingers, has a certain amount of accommodation built into it while we detach and allow them to process through whatever is happening with them. I like seeing people find a voice. There's no right or wrong here. And everyone is an adult who can handle way more, I believe, than we give them credit for. I mean...look what we're living through! If someone says something about your spouse or your stand or any choice you make that you don't agree with, it's an opportunity to speak your peace or ignore them. I don't think it's our job to bubble wrap everyone so no one gets offended.

The forum "is what it is" (sorry) because it is a collective. If it's changed, it's just part of how it's evolved. It may not be exactly as I found it almost seven years ago, but there's a lot less desperation, I can tell you that. And that includes me! And I thank this forum for helping with that.

[Nas]

 Absolutely love the bubble wrap analogy and it is perfect for this situation.

I’d also like to suggest that if someone gives someone else advice and you find yourself having an uncomfortable reaction to it, you have been triggered for a reason and it is very good excuse to look within and try to figure out exactly why you were triggered. And I am using the universal “you” here, not speaking to anyone specifically.

[nah]

I however do not have the right to expect that others will share my beliefs, although I am convinced that there would be more reconciliations if people could wait it out..no proof of that but just common sense to me....that if there is nothing to come back to, then that would deter the MLCer from even making an attempt. That if the LBSer is hateful towards their MLCer, common sense tells me that they would not ever wish to return.

I have said this before,... Xy, I think you are incredibly strong and I think you are 100% right.

I wasn't strong enough, I couldn't do it.  I believed at the time if I shoved in his face that I could move on quickly without him that he would come crawling back with his tail between his legs.  I foolishly thought that he would quickly see the errors of his ways and become a better man to win me back.

It doesn't work that way very often, does it?

I now feel if I stayed pleasant and focused on myself, not dating and drawing attention to what I was doing, we most likely would have had a better chance. 

But, my journey didn't turn out that way.  Instead as soon as I was let out in the world, I realized that there was so much that I hadn't experienced and jumped in with both feet.  Our paths went in different directions even further.  I truly believe thats why we don't often see many vanisher return stories, it's the LBS.  The Leaver is a freakin' mess, lost his high profile job, friends, family, everything he loved.  He walked out on me citing he missed a full house. This Thanksgiving it was him, his Mrs-tress and her mother as my son had to leave early.  Who knows what my daughter did, all I know is she wasn't with them. We are all separated now, no longer the close family we used to be.

If we still had a home we would have had no less than 20-something people. He knows he can't come back, he made his bed and now that's his life.  But me too, I can't go back,.. back to what?  Back with his family after all that was said and done on both sides (including me), back with "friends" that back-stabbed me in the worst way?  The house is sold, I live in another state, I'm married to another man.

Who knows if it would have been different if I just kept my head down and not said a word to anybody.

It's just not me, couldn't do it and honestly, right now, I'm glad I did it the way I did.

BUT... that's not to say it was the right way, just my way, for me.

[xyzcf]

I think you are incredibly strong and I think you are 100% right.

I wasn't strong enough, I couldn't do it.  I believed at the time if I shoved in his face that I could move on quickly without him that he would come crawling back with his tail between his legs.  I foolishly thought that he would quickly see the errors of his ways and become a better man to win me back.

Dear Nah, you made me smile...but no, I am not "strong"..no more so than any other LBSer I have met. A priest in a class I am taking talked about adultery and what a deep deep wound it is (and not just for the person who had been cheated on but for the person who cheated too)...as I used to scream at the beginning of all this...I did not know what to do with the pain.

I am glad you wrote the above..because often I was told that he really needed to think he had lost me or he'd just continue to "cake eat"......but that isn't a  certainty either.

Because the one true thing I do know, this is not about us and not about our marriages.

I have not had more success at reconciliation that others....it's really a crap shot....no rhyme or reason to why they come back.

I have distanced myself from him, don't contact him and have strict boundaries in place now that I did not before...I cannot allow him to hurt me again...the last time really tore me apart and that cannot happen again.....

He's still the clinging boomeranger he's always been (sigh) but regardless of a change in my behaviour, he's still in crisis...no improvement that I can see at all.

[Nas]

I would love to hear more about what the priest had to say about how adultery leaves lasting wounds on both the betrayer and the betrayed. (That goes against what all of my counselors have ever told me, although I’ve often disagreed with them.)

[xyzcf]

I would love to hear more about what the priest had to say about how adultery leaves lasting wounds on both the betrayer and the betrayed. (That goes against what all of my counselors have ever told me, although I’ve often disagreed with them.)

Sorry for the hijack but some people may find this interesting. My own thought is that adultery had pretty much been taboo throughout centuries and in many different cultures and religions throughout the world. Yet it has existed since the beginning of time..the difference being that our society doesn't consider it to be any big deal, let alone a sin.

Many MLCers, my husband included were very clear in their beliefs of remaining faithful to their spouses...the LBSer is really shocked that they would do this. Never ever would I have believed that he would cheat on us.

One speaker in this series I am attending spoke about several hundred years ago, if a man committed adultery and wished to be absolved of his sin, he had to do penance of 2 years living on bread and water alone AND he had to make it right with the one he cheated on...only after 2 years would he be absolved and be allowed to receive the Eucharist once more...it was very clear that he had to make reparation to his wife.

This priest spoke about how God's forgiveness is a given...it is a grace that anyone can receive. Indeed, we don't earn it, God freely forgives us for anything. But, repentance and penance are needed as he said to repair the deep wound that the adultery has caused...to both parties....indeed, a long time ago, when I asked my husband why he could not look me in the eye, he hung his head and repeated "shame, shame, shame".....

Anyway, now remember, this is a Catholic perspective and can only be applied in that context...when you go to the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) IF you are truly sorry for your sins, the priest, in the person of Christ if I understand correctly, absolves you of your sin and gives you a penance to do. If you have hurt someone, you would have to do something to make that right or you cannot be absolved of your sin. Without absolution you are not in a state of grace to receive the Eucharist.The priest talked about repentance and penance in this context and reiterated the deepness of this wound that adultery causes.

Then, this is the part that blew me away, he said that penance can also be done for the one who was wounded by the adultery, given up for the one who committed adultery...that is, I as well can do penance for my husband's  salvation..I must say that did not sit well with me since I have enough "pain" in my life to last me a life time...yet the more I think about this, the more it makes sense...for what did Christ do for us?

He, who was without sin, took all our sins and died for us.

I am no "expert" on this. The priest I am taking the classes with actually provides instruction to seminarians on spirituality. It is a 26 week course that has been offered to lay people to deepen our spiritual journey.

A lot of this is foreign to me since I am a convert...but I know that my parents, not Catholic, were very clear about the permanency of marriage, that adultery was wrong, indeed in their world, that premarital sex was wrong.

But we don't want to hear any of this...we have become too modern to "believe" these old fashion ideals.....

Again, for me, the MLCer is in great pain over many many things...in an effort to stop the pain, they "medicate" with anything that will put it out...not realizing at the time what a mess they have made, things they have done that they can never go back and undo..so once again..it makes sense to me that their wound might even be greater than our own.


PS...I am not trying to start a heated argument about these things..you either have these beliefs or you don't.