Author Topic: My Story  Growth For A New Half Century  (Read 1464 times)

Offline xyzcf

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My Story Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2019, 12:07:58 PM »
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Re: I Survived...We Survived...It Can Happen III
« Reply #69 on: Today at 10:18:31 AM »
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Xyzcf, I have no problem with messages of hope. Never had. I do have a big problem with a old timer who also is a mod saying what you said.

You basically said that everyone who does not "wait" for the MLCer has given up and that a single reconciled marriage is worthy more than all of us who will not reconcile for a number of reasons.

I also have a big problem with you saying that LBS give up and that is why the marriage did not reconcile. Given many of us have MLCers who have been in crisis for 2, 3, 4 times the time BB's wife spend in MLC, and that all of us wanted the marriage at first, that is offensive.

The truth is, a MLCer with a short/mild crisis is one thing. A MLCer whose crisis has been going on for nearly a decade or over a decade and/or is violent is another thing.

I love hope, I love reconnection and reconciliation stories, but BB's and others with short timelines have nothing to offer me in terms of hope. Had Mr J crisis been that short things would had been different.

As far as I know, it is the MLCer who gives up on the LBS and marriage. That some are still there for those people is a miracle that a MLCer should forever be grateful for.

Yes, for the most part we are wasting our life when it comes to think there will be a reconciliation. Most marriages will not reconcile. We are not wasting our life because we keep living.

As a nurse, you would say a terminally ill patient that there is hope? When I took my grandmother to hospital for the final time, if any nurse or doctor would had told me that, given that I knew exactly what was going on, I would feel insulted. I knew that time she was not going to make it. There is hope and the is lying/hidding the truth.


I am answering Anjae's comments to me on BBHelp's thread here:


Anjae, I did not say what you are inferring.

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You basically said that everyone who does not "wait" for the MLCer has given up and that a single reconciled marriage is worthy more than all of us who will not reconcile for a number of reasons.

My thoughts about if one marriage is saved because someone did not give up hope is because I don't care about the stats, how "many" marriages reconcile....even one marriage that is reconciled is worth it to me.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not say, taking what I said out of context. I am sorry that you have interpreted my meaning that somehow I think that one marriage reconciled is more important than anyone else's....I did not say that...but a saved marriage is important from my own religious view....there is way too much theology for me to get into as to why I feel so strongly about this. I expressed my view, you disagree...fine...does it really need to be rehashed a second time? You have already indicated that you were insulted, I did not respond because we certainly don't need this type of argument over and over again between us on various threads.

I have seen people diagnosed with "terminal" illnesses survive....a very good friend of mine had a couple of weeks to live and was started on an experimental protocol for her cancer over 20 years ago...she is alive and very well. Another friend was told she would die in 6 months, she refused all medical treatment and lived for 4 years...so yes, as a nurse I will always be ready to give people hope. So many time  I hear doctor's give a timeframe for how long someone will live and those timeframes in my experience have never been right.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2019, 04:11:30 PM »
This is what you said: "If one marriage is reconciled because someone read BBhelp's story and it allowed then to have hope, that that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses and ultimately give up on God."

It clearly says if one marriage is reconciled because someone read BB's thread and the thread allows them to have hope that is more worthy than everyone who gave up on their spouses. There is nothing about stats on that part.

It is not a question of interpretation, but of what is written and that is what is written is clear. It may not be what you intended, but that is what is there.

The thing is, many of us didn't gave up. We stood, or hoped, for years down that things would change, they didn't. Most people aren't going to stand and stick around for a marriage that no longer is. Even because many are divorced.

I get the stats thing, but facts are facts. Most HS members will not reconcile, for the reasons we know. Several old timers are in new marriages/relationships, some, like Learning and In It, very happy and with no desire to return to a marriage that, in comparison, wasn't that good.

Many newbies and mid timers will be in new relationships, or decide to be on their own.


One reconciled marriage is also worthy to me, but not more worthy than everyone else who made another decision.

The thing is, I don't think marriage is that important unless it is a good marriage. My parents never divorced. At a point, their marriage was awful and we, the kids, suffered a lot. It would had been far better if they had divorced. Or never got back together when my dad returned from political exhile. A bad marriage is not worthy and not all marriages can, or should, be saved.

As for MLC, I believe in it, that it does have a pattern and that most MLCers come out of MLC. But most people, HS or real life ones, will no be willing to take the MLCer back. Many MLCers cause to much damages.


What I meant terminal I meant someone like grandmother. Minutes, hours, couple of days at most. 4mg of morphine an hour (for someone who had not been given morphine before), a pulmonary edema that was not responding to meds. The only things that could had been tried were invasive methods that the team of doctors though would only cause more pain. Even if they, my miracle, managed to solve the pulmonary edema, they would never been able to reverse the last stroke with vascular epilepsy. Grandmother was in great pain before the morphine, was 96.5 years old and medicine had no solution for the effects of the stroke.

Doctors, and nurses, known when there really is the end. And sometimes, the end is the end. The other previous 4 times I took grandmother to hospital, including the one she returned from with the stroke with vascular epilepsy, I had hope. But during the last three months of her life it was clear the end was near and that even if there had been tiny neurological improvements, there wasn't enough time and it would not be possible to have her gaining movement. She was a soul, by then a sad one, she even often had tears in her eyes, something very rare in her, and she knew the end was close.

That 5th time I knew there was nothing to be done, other than keep her comfortable. It is important to know, and to learn, to accept the end in order not to prolong unnecessary suffering.

Would you say that there is hope to the spouse of the patient with FTD that there is hope? For now, there is no cure and it is not reversible. What hope is there? Presumably, his wife was already told by doctors what to expect.

My paternal grandmother has Alzeimer's. At least with conventional treatment, nothing will improve. We're seven grandchildren and the decisions have to be joint. My siblings do not believe in any sort of alternative treatment. The wife of one of them is a doctor, the girfriend of another is a doctor. They are adamant that there is nothing to be done. In that case, I happen to think a few things could be done, starting with changing care home - that one is OK, but, for me, not suitable.

Then again, I am also the person who thinks most mental illnesses aren't approached in ways that work. Or that work for most. However, most doctors don't want to hear about it. That said, some cases are too severe, the brain is too affected and we still don't know enough.

Regarding cancer, cancer is one illness where I think hope is very important and can make a huge difference. Even in strokes, providing they aren't the magnitude of grandmother's last one and/or the person is not her age.

Well, you're right, doctors often give wrong timeframes. The head of the  special area of the A&E when I took grandmother to hospital the last time thought she was going to die during the night. I knew she was not. Breathing and heart rate wore too strong (the 4mg of morphine per hour hadn't been startet). But I also knew she would not live more two days. And she didn't.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline xyzcf

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2019, 04:40:36 PM »
Sorry Anjae, I don't have time right now to answer all your points as I have to go to a class but I want to reiterate what I meant by "worth".

I was responding to whyus, who on many threads has pushed forth his belief that to give a LBSer "hope" is doing them a disservice. My point, and perhaps I was amiss in the wording, if hope allows an LBSer to still be there when their spouse gets through their crisis and their marriage is reconciled, that to me what is worth is continuing to have hope that the MLCer's crisis will end someday and may wish to return.

One marriage saved is worth it to me.

I do not at all condem people for their choice to move onto another relationship/ remarry or have a partner. For many reasons, that is not the right thing for ME and I write what I believe for me.

I personally would not want to be in another relationship and have to make a choice if my MLCer got through his crisis...that would be far too complicated for me....

I AM NOT SAYING THAT ANYONE ELSE'S SITUATION IS NOT WORTHY. I am not saying that at all. The "worth" to me, is that by having hope, marriages may be saved because the LBSer may still be around and willing to rebuild something new. The "worth" to me is that although my husband is not living up to the sacrament of marriage, that I will continue to do so..his crisis did not mean that I changed my mind about the permanency of marriage.

I said "that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses"...people like whyus who fear that giving LBSers hope means that their lives are not being fully lived, others who feel that somehow we are missing something because we do not enter into another relationship, who tell us that to GAL means we MUST allow ourselves to break our vows and find someone new...those types of comments are not in my mind helpful and may push someone to do something that they don't want to do...but after all, the whole world thinks divorce is fine and we are told that over and over again....

You are responding to something in my words that is not clear to me at all.....you are angry for what I have said....I promise you, I am not being derogatory towards you or anyone else....but the idea, that giving anyone hope is causing them to not be living a full life, THAT is what I was meaning.

I am sorry if you don't understand that and I am not sure how to make it more clear.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 04:46:05 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 05:41:34 PM »
Not angry, I am offended/feel insulted. Quite different.

I read your entire post more than once. I could not believe that you have wrote. It is/was so, so horrible.

You're trying to explain. But I cannot see how it changes "If one marriage is reconciled because someone read BBhelp's story and it allowed then to have hope, that is worth more than all the many others who give up on their spouses and ultimately give up on God".

Is pretty clear, is it not? It does not say "all the many others but those who are no long standing or are in new relationships, etc.. It says all the many others, which in that context means everyone who is not reconnected/reconciled/is a covenat keeper or who is currently standing (but we don't know if they will, or will not be, later on). Which means a good deal of HS members.

My point, and perhaps I was amiss in the wording, if hope allows an LBSer to still be there when their spouse gets through their crisis and their marriage is reconciled, that to me what is worth is continuing to have hope that the MLCer's crisis will end someday and may wish to return.

This is very different from what you wrote. Maybe the post on BB's thread it didn't come along well.

Hope, truth be said, will no longer matter for many because the MLCer's crisis is too long/too nasty, they meet someone else. Most of us will not be there when the MLCer is out of crisis and, sometimes, it has nothing to do with hope for the crisis to end. I doubt any LBS wants their MLCer to remain in crisis.

A marriage is worth saving for me if it is a good marriage. A poor or bad marriage is not. Nor am I certain if it makes sense for some LBS, like myself, to even think about taking back the MLCer. 

It is a fact people are missing something because they are not in a new relationship, they are missing a new relationship and having a partner, sometimes for many, many years. A new relationship may be quite important for some, and may not be of interest for some. Personal choice.

For me, it would be very easy. If I was in a new relationship and Mr J would come out of crisis, I would not leave the new person for him. He does not deserve me and he knows I will not leave a new person for him.

I am all for giving hope, but at a point, and depending of circustance, one has to become realistic. If a LBS has the desire to be in a new relationship, keep telling their MCLer may come back may not be the best advice. I am not talking about telling it to newbies. But people who are several years from BD, if they want a new relationship, why not?

There are too many LBS on their own. At times, I think, because we over insist people stand for something that doesn't have much chances and no longer exists - remember the old marriage is dead, and often there is a divorce, so, no marriage at all. Even without divorce, many do not have a marriage or a spouse.

You haven't changed your mind about the permanency of marriage, but many of us have, or will.

GAL means find something we like and makes us happy, not find someone new. If the person wants someone new, that is their choice. Again, I am not talking about newbies jumping into a new relationship.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline LearningIamOk

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2019, 05:20:34 PM »
As long as you are alive, there is always hope to reconcile the M. As Anjae said, it is a personal choice to Stand or move on at some point. I also agree that we should not be telling Newbies that the chances are extremely small that it will work out. They need a soft place to land, orient themselves in their new normal, and learn how to pick up the pieces of their lives.

For me, GALing put a whole new perspective on things, my life, my future. As RCR has said, Standing isn't still. I rediscovered things that I loved that were not part of my M. I let them go because xH had no interest in them, or found annoying. I used to love to fall asleep to music. xH wanted absolute SILENCE. I could do that again. I was able to reacquaint myself with me.

I think we do a disservice when we get the feeling that someone would like to give up their Stand, but seem afraid to do so for fear of looking like a failure. We have to make this a safe place for people to make personal choices that work for them. There is no shame in Standing, and there is no shame in deciding to move on, with or without someone else.

No one is more or less of a person because they choose a path that is right for them. We need to be able to validate everyone's choices so they can relax and live a life of joy. Life is too short to try to inflict our opinions about how others should live. We need to be the cheerleaders that are able to help those that come here keep going. That IMHO, is what our goal should be.
trying2bok

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 05:33:46 PM »
We really cannot tell newbies the same things we are able to tell mid or long timers. None of us would listen if someone tried to tell us the odds were tiny when we first got here.

Agree that standing isn't still. In many ways. Be is for someone who is a Covenant Keeper, since the person still carries on living, or for someone who may be standing, then stops, then goes back to stand again. Nothing wrong with any option we may choose to make.

I think we do a disservice when we get the feeling that someone would like to give up their Stand, but seem afraid to do so for fear of looking like a failure. We have to make this a safe place for people to make personal choices that work for them.

This really is important. We are pretty good at supporting standers, but, at times, we may not be so good with those that would like to give up standing and, like you say, may think by stop standing will looking like a failure.

I am not talking about telling people "stop standing", but of someone who is no longer a newbie, who has thought things through and reached that decision. On the other hand, we have you, Readytofix, Nah and several others who have remarried or are in a new relationship.

And there is me, who I ais neither a stander nor in a new relationship and have no problems with whatever option a person picks. My only concern is for newbies and those who want to rush into a new relationship thinking the new relationship will solve everything. Just like with the MLCer, it will not.

That said, I agree that there should be pause before someone decides to no longer give the marriage/MLCers a change. Just like a new relationship, or no relationship, it has to come from a place of peace, not anger.

There is no shame in Standing, and there is no shame in deciding to move on, with or without someone else.

Exactly.

A life of joy sounds like an excellent purpose to me, regardless of the LBS choice.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline LearningIamOk

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2019, 06:28:24 PM »
I would NEVER tell someone to stop Standing. But there comes a time that it is ok to say to the LBS, depending on what the LBS is saying, that is ok to give it up if that is what they want. Maybe it should be done in a PM just in case we got our wires crossed.

And jumping into another relationship when there is no work done on fixing yourself, is just asking for trouble. No one makes you whole or complete but you. Once you are whole and complete, it's safe to let another person in.
trying2bok

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2019, 06:50:15 PM »
I think it can be done on the person's thread. It would have to be done in a respectful way, but I think it is possible.

And jumping into another relationship when there is no work done on fixing yourself, is just asking for trouble.

It is.

No one makes you whole or complete but you. Once you are whole and complete, it's safe to let another person in.

This!  That is why is so important for us to be on our own until we are whole, complete and ready. Otherwise, it will be a mess.

On the other hand, people learn by trial and error. So, if a LBS jumps into a new relationship too soon and it does not work out, that is fine. The person will have learned something and next time things will be different.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline AnjaeTopic starter

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 02:31:02 PM »
Just putting it here for future reference.

A year ago yesterday I saw Mr J here on a social situation by chance. He was DJing and I went to say hi. As he saw me, he gave a step back in the DJ booth, terrified. I went back to the people I was with and kept talking to them. When leaving he put an hand on my left shoulder and said "So, good night". E replied, bye.

Before I and the people I was with went inside I saw SIL and OW2. I chatted a little with SIL and smiled and said hi to OW2.

A month or so afterwards I got and e-mail from Mr J asking for my address. He had found some journals of mine and wanted to send them to me. He did it.

August 2018 I had to contact him by phone because of a big collective exhibition organized by the City Hall. The curators had tried to reach him, but he never got back to them. When I finally reached him, he didn't recognised by voice and asked who it was (I called from the landline, not by mobile) and soon turned monster. However, he said he had some materials that the curators were after that he had spend years telling me he didn't had. I know he come to see the exhibition even if he told me he no longer has an interest in such things.

It was not the same time people told me they had tried to contact Mr J and he either didn't reply to them or did once, said he would follow up and then didn't. No idea what that is so. He seems to follow up when it comes to his DJ sets.

Since he started contacting by e-mail once or twice a year in 2016 no more progress other than simple going nowhere contact has happened aside him using my given name in the e-mails rather than no name. The e-mails still end with Kind regards rather than kisses.

Last year, if it wasn't for the exhibition, I would had not contacted him. If I had mostly lost any desire to contatc him, August 2018 phone call made lose any remaining wish to do so.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline LearningIamOk

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Re: Growth For A New Half Century
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 05:07:29 PM »
Anjae, I think Mr. J takes the prize for being a Tunnel Enthusiast. ;D To be so ingrained in MLC behaviors makes me shake my head. It must be getting tiresome to be stuck so long in trying to make believe you are in a good place. Obviously, his fear of you approaching him speaks volumes about how little forward movement there has been with him.

What a horrible way to live life.
trying2bok

 

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