Author Topic: My Story Babe carries on...  (Read 2574 times)

Offline Nerissa

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My Story Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #140 on: March 17, 2019, 08:31:22 AM »
Bion has a point, but he clearly was able to think clearly again and link things

Is it very cheeky of me to say that he got better through talk therapy, Anjae ?  😉

Offline Anjae

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #141 on: March 17, 2019, 08:47:46 AM »
No. But talk therapy really does not work for many. It does nothing on the lymbic system and it does not work on abusers. And, as a general rule, it does not work on trauma. So, either his trauma wasn't that big/deep or because of his profession talk therapy worked for him since he already had tools to know what was affecting him and deal with it. Or it was luck.

Given his profession, Bion, would probably get better even without therapy. As did many who suffered WWII. Therapy was not available for the many working class people (and others) who endured WWII. It was not even much of a thing in most of Europe or the UK - and probably not a thing at all in other parts of the world. In the past therapy was mostly for a handful of well-off people.

And now that therapy is much more common, it does not seem to be of much help. There has never been so many depressed and unhappy people.

To me, talk therapy and its many fancy theories does more harm than good. The whole ego, self, id, anima/animus, complexes and the rest of the lot is interesting, but is just fancy talk. The neuro part is not taken into account. In essence, the theories are an attempt to describe external signs of complex things that happen in brain and body.

Or a way of trying to excuse a lifestyle, as in the case of the Jungs.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online TreasurTopic starter

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #142 on: March 17, 2019, 08:54:00 AM »
Interestingly van der Kolk says after 9/11 the experts all said what was needed was psycotherapy and CBT. What research showed later was that what people said had actually helped them most was...in order of best...acupuncture, then massage, then yoga, then EMDR.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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Offline Anjae

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #143 on: March 17, 2019, 08:58:34 AM »
Interestingly van der Kolk says after 9/11 the experts all said what was needed was psycotherapy and CBT.

Of course they did.  ::) They still say the same. Regular therapy and psychiatry are stuck in the past.

What research showed later was that what people said had actually helped them most was...in order of best...acupuncture, then massage, then yoga, then EMDR.

Never tried acupuncture and will never try EMDR. Massage and tapping helped me a lot. Trauma sticks to our nerves and muscles, etc., talking therapy is not going to do much, if a thing. But anything that includes touch in main points, muscles, nerves, etc. will help. Neuro 101.  ;)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nerissa

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #144 on: March 17, 2019, 09:09:41 AM »
Trauma victims are not freed by going over the past again and again. Nor are they freed when someone else hears their story and understands. Memory work is important, so that the lost time is no longer as terrifying. But completed narratives don’t fill the gap. They just help give the gap a beginning and an end. The real work is investing in the world now in all the ways people do: living, loving, working, building, making, doing. Sensory therapy, such as massage, or yoga, is often helpful, for it emphasizes the experience of the body now.



I just found this quotation.  Here is the full  Article: 

http://www.traumatheory.com/freud-from-a-trauma-perspective/

I do agree with your point Anjae, but I also think therapy is absorbing findings in neuroscience and also neuroscience sometimes finds evidence that means talk therapy was always on the right track. Ultimately, I believe we know ourselves through relationship . And also that we heal through relationship. And that can be living in the world, but for many in our fragmented society, it might be through a relationship made in thterapy.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:11:40 AM by Nerissa »

Offline Nerissa

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #145 on: March 17, 2019, 09:17:48 AM »
A listener is needed not in order to tell or retell the victim’s trauma, but to express an interest in other parts of the traumatized person’s life, the parts that remain infused with vitality, ones which can be invested in new narratives, and a new life.

Much trauma theory gets it backwards

Much trauma theory gets it backwards, imagining that the task is to recover an original experience of trauma, one that cannot be put into words. No, the task is to help the traumatized live a new narrative, a new life. Needed is reentry into the experience of going-on-being so the trauma survivor can let go of an overly narrativized trauma. Or rather, let go of a trauma narrative that has become a perverse transitional object, substituting for one’s own going-on-being.  I believe that this is what Maurice Blanchot means when he refers to “the danger that the disaster acquire meaning instead of body.” (p. 41)


....And this...

Online TreasurTopic starter

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2019, 09:39:47 AM »
My sense is that it is a both/and. Different activities address different things.

Van der Kolk says clearly that post-trauma we need a safe human place and that if we have that it can prevent us from being overwhelmed to the point of PTSD. And we need to tell our truth and to be heard so that needs someone to listen and witness.  And our brain needs a bit of rewiring bc trauma changes how it works.  And that most of all, trauma is not a past story but a current wound to be healed so we can find ourselves again and an inner sense of 'home' in our physical self.

So for me EMDR did the brain work and helps release the old unhelpful narrative.  HS and a couple of RL folks have listened to my truths without judging which helped me not feel like I was irretrievably lost or insane bc they could see me when I couldn't (although my progress was undoubtedly slowed by losing my normal support safe people)  My religious faith helped me fight to remember that tiny core bit of who I am and see it again, the Babe bit, along with how my father raised me. And my ongoing job now is to do all the other things that are Home work, the physical tangible things that are about figuring out and feeling what Home is and will be next.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 09:49:06 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

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Offline Anjae

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2019, 09:48:23 AM »



Talking therapy and psychiatry have been improving in incorporating findings in neuroscience, but at a very slow rate and, as we read in the stories of many on HS, often it is stuck in Jungian theory and other similar theories. I find Jungian theory beautiful, but it does little to heal trauma.

There is branch called neuropsychiatry that is interesting.
 
A relationship with therapy sounds very sad to me. One of the most sad things I have heard. There are real people out there to get in touch with. Not sure we know ourselves through relationships ... maybe.

Much trauma theory gets it backwards, imagining that the task is to recover an original experience of trauma, one that cannot be put into words.

But this is what talk therapy does. Recover the original experience of trauma and go through it over and over and over agains, constantly opening the wound causing more damage to body and brain. Talk therapy tends to focus on the source of trauma and explore, not guide people into a new, happy life.

A friend is enough to tells us that there is life, a new life, good things out there. Or/and HS for LBS. I truly cannot see why people need to pay someone to tell them what a good friend or relative can tell them. Same for listening. Speak with a friend or relative. Or, for LBS, HS.

I don't like standard talk therapy and never will. Not everyone responds to it and most men do not like it nor respond to it. The language is too complicated for the average man. In fact, for the average woman as well. Most people have hardworking lives, they do not know, or care, for fancy therapy lingo. They need practical simple solutions. And something that works quicly, not after years.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/09/our-goal-is-to-halve-the-male-suicide-rate-why-no-frills-therapy-works-for-men - On men and therapy. When my counsin had his MLC, he was taken to an endless amount of therapist and psyciatrists. None was able to reach him. Each psychiatrist would diagnose him with a different mental illness, each therapist would come up with a different theory and complex.

When my cousin hit rock bottom I took him to a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist. They bonded talking about cars, computers, gadgets, graphic design, etc. My friend didn't bring up any fancy theory, just looked for things that would interest my cousin. It worked.

I am not saying we don't need to speak. We do. Just that we don't need to go to talk therapy to talk about things a friend or relative can listen to.

If talk therapy, and most kinds of therapy, worked, the sucess rate would be high. Same for psychiatry. Psychiatry has appalling sucess rates and the same goes for therapy. People tend to end up back there. Which means it was not successful.

We need to find new and better ways of dealing with the many problems people face as well as with mental illness. The track record for cure in mental illness is very, very low.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online Milly

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2019, 09:53:12 AM »
Interesting discussion on the value of therapy. I do see an IC every week and I really feel she was fundamental in the progress I've made, but that might be because she's a Jungian therapist so a problem solver. It was like having a companion helping me make decisions. She is also helpful for my FOO issues.

I think you're both probably right in saying it's not having any effect on the trauma. Even my IC will tell me regularly that I'm in a state that trauma victims are in: constant alert of something about to happen.

Treasur, regarding whether to send the birthday message or not, I say no. Just because you've made such progress on your NC and I feel it would pull you back. I don't think enough time has gone by for your H to be in a different place than where you last saw him. He might not even have registered your NC yet. I feel that it would be good to leave him well alone for a long time before you show grace in sending any kind of greeting.

Of course you worry that he could be back in the suicidal place, but as my IC says, that's not your problem to resolve. Everyone does have a choice, even with suicide. And since he's fully immersed in Replay, a big splash wedding after finding out your fiancé is a thief, stinks of Replay, he's probably not suicidal at the moment.

How apt that on finding his OW was not this wonderful person, he then went on to marry her, as if she can help him forget about the thieving OW he's with. I'm not sure I've explained that well. What I mean is that he can't even seem to connect that his wife is the thief. He ran to Wife2 to forget OWTheThief.

I think he's still working really hard on having this marriage help him forget his sorrows.
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D24, D21, S14
OW Physical Affair. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 50 last year.

Online TreasurTopic starter

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Re: Babe carries on...
« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2019, 09:59:53 AM »
Actually that is what van der Kolk is passionate about. He believes that we turn our nose up at so-Called alternative therapies that have been around for thousands of years bc we are biased towards psychotherapy in the last 100 years or so, bc there are vested interests in certain kinds of mental health threatment and bc we are only just starting to learn enough about how the brain works in fields like neuropsychiatry to be able to scientifically 'prove' certain things that we just couldn't before. And if you can't prove something, it is pretty difficult to get funding for it.

I do think talking to friends and family is really important also bc it keeps you hooked into the rest of life. The sad truth is though that for some of us our RL support system is limited or destroyed by events and that sometimes in RL people can be a bit too close or a bit too affected as well to get what we need. I have no doubt at all that if my father had still been alive, I would not have developed PTSD bc he would have kept the world safe enough for long enough for me to get up on my feet. But that wasn't how it was.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD)
No kids.
BD Oct 15. OW since Apr 16?
H filed Jan 17. Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.

Grateful for any appearance of the tiny karma bus  
"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

 

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