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Author Topic: Mirror-Work The difference of a bitter lbs and accepting what is

K
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I dont know why i thought of this , this morning. I have been watching alot of movies lately. like the title says the difference of lbs
  watch the movie  "A scorned woman "   The betty broderick story.. i see this movie and think she is nuts but can sympathize with her at the same time... the bitter lbs
The second movie  "its complicated" more of a comedy but lbs accepted and moved on.
Which do you want to be? I myself go back and forth. probably why im stuck.
 
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 03:38:01 AM by OldPilot »

W
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I see myself more of the "its complicated" where lbs accepted and moved on.
There are times though where the MLCer can come back and haunt you and start a cycle of "A scorned woman ". Its all "Grey" now as a LBS, there is no more "Black or White" I believe.
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Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. Is tolerated by LaFamiglia
2 Sons - 20 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

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I'm somewhere in the middle.. I'm not bitter but haven't really accepted it's over so I haven't moved on.. I'm in my own fog I guess! I think there's difference as well between what we understand intellectually and what we feel  :-\
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H - 43 (40 @BD1)
M - 43 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose, "we have problems")
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H and OW are together, presume PA  - 3rd June 2019
H gets engaged with OW (we are not divorced) - Oct 2019

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change"

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Accepting bitterness is double loss. Accepting anger and coping with it, burning it away little by little, is the way to avoid becoming bitter.
I'd fight bitterness in every way because who it would poison would be only me. Don't want to and won't let to.
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"I've seen dreams that move the mountains, hope that doesn't ever end even when the sky is falling. I've seen miracles just happen, silent prayers get answered, broken hearts become brand new. That's what faith can do." Kutless

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Definitely "It's Complicated".

The MLCer has taken a great deal away from our lives. I want freedom to live a full and joyful life, because life still exists and there are many beautiful things to experience.

I understand better, that when all is going well in life, we don't really pay attention at all..but we do not understand that bad things happen, they happen to everyone at some time or another....

The pain is excruciating when our beloved ones have a MLC, but I am also grateful that it is not I who have to face those demons.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

A
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Quote
Which do you want to be?

You mean ‘which one are you’?  All the answers seem to point to that. 
I’m asking because I cannot wrap my head around the notion that anyone would CHOOSE to be bitter.
Maybe it’s just semantics.

Assuming that no one wants to remain in the poison of bitterness, the follow up question might be:

How does holding on to bitterness serve you?
If it does serve you, in what way?
It it does not serve you, how do you let go of it?

If I’m barking up the wrong tree, my apologies.

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Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

s
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I’ve not watched these movies but “it’s complicated” is on my list of movies to watch when I eventually get time ha!

I think, if were totally honest, most of us probably were bitter after BD. I know I was for probably the first 5 months after BD and I think that’s natural when I was in effect 26 years old at the time, at home raising 3 kids (6,4,1 at the time) whilst my Ex could pop in for a hour or two and live his fancy life with his Ow. Go on weekends away, etc etc. Ofcourse I was bitter but that didn’t last long. Around the 4-5 month post BD I hit the “what will he will be” mentality. I do believe in my gut H will want to return but who knows by then one or the magic mike men may have gotten my number and persistently started pestering for a date 🤷🏻‍♀️  I live my life for me and my kids. I do things for me.

I was bitter for a bit and I owned that. Now it’s time for me to own the next chapter of my journey.
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H - 35
3 children together D3 D6 D8 (D1 D4 and D6 at the time of BD)
Together - almost 8 years

BD & MLCer moved out - November 2017
OW discovered - December 2017
Moved in with Ow - November 2019
Ow met children - December 2019

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I would def be more COMPLICATED!

I was lucky in that I was never bitter.  There were times I said that it would have been easier for me if I could have hated the MLC man that walked out of our lives.

I couldn't.  I knew the day he walked that something was wrong.  I didn't know what, but my gut told me things just don't happen this way.  It is not normal.

I have no intent on moving on....I am however MOVING FORWARD!

I choose not to be bitter and scorned.  I am accepting life as it is now and living it to the fullest.  H has the opportunity to join my ride which is steady with no huge mountains to climb or stay on his rollercoaster.  Right now he is firmly planted in the front seat of the coaster...looking for the next thrill as the bottom is dropping out on him.  His choice.

Mine is to do the things that make me content.  Time with family!  Volunteering for charities and good causes.  Relaxing!  Supporting my LBS friends!

My choice daily is to be happy! 
Make the best of everyday!
Try to make a positive difference even if it is only in a small way!
Smile and laugh as much as possible!
Stay healthy through all of this!  Physically!  Mentally and Spiritually!
Most importantly...now matter how bad things may look..no matter how dreary things may seem...there is something good and positive in my life.  It is my responsibility to find it!
I got this!
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10.29.17 BD-Moved out to OW/A began in  6.17
3.5.18 OW moved away/H moved in with F
3.19.18  H moved home into spare room 
7.14.18  Moved to be with OW (another state)
9.4.18  Moved back-Living with Parents 
11.1.18  OW moved back.  H living w/her in D's basement room. 
11.18 - H started visiting on holidays
11.26.19 Call from H.  BIL died suddenly.
1.19 - H announced to my inner circle that he moved to sisters  inc all belongings
2.19  H volunteers to house and dog sit whenever.
Spring 19  H visiting house and doing chores on a regular basis

4.83 Started Dating
8.10.85  Married

D -29 Married with 2 children  Lives Local
S - 27 Engaged in Prof School across country
3 Dogs (he left them all behind - taking care of them but not really visiting or interacting with them yet)

S
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Accepting, not bitter - have never been bitter, just sad at his choices.
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H:56, I am 54
BD: March 2014, Left Sept 2014, Back Nov 2014
Left again in February 2015.  Asked for D on 9/22/15
Said he was "sure" he wanted a D in Dec 2015; 
Admitted long term affair - May 14, 2017 - says he is in love with the "symptom" but wants to build a relationship with me with "clear expectations" WHATEVER THAT MEANS!  Settlement Agreement signed 9/20/17.
Divorce final 3/14/18.
NC - by choice - 1/2018

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I talked about this with my SO..Again we do not see ourselves as bitter or jaded towards relationships with the opposite sex or let's face it we wouldn't be in one.

 Now bitter towards our exs?

Their are some things we have on our list about them we consider unforgivable. Therefore these would stand against any re-connection reconciliation. Does that make us bitter? Just because we want nothing to do with people who chose to inflict as much pain as they did? I think not.

You forgive yourself first for accepting such terrible treatment, then forgive them and have nothing more to do with them.

 For me acceptance of a situation doesn't mean you have to make an effort and actively participate in their lives, or have them in yours.
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« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 09:30:40 AM by in it »
There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

K
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My point was not neccessarily  to choose. I wanted to inform those who have not seen these movies ,to watch them.  It makes you take a look from the outside,  of how your behavior could make things worse or better for yourself.
At first i was crazy betty, not lighting stuff on fire or running my car into the house but a fair share of craziness. When i watched this movie I thought to myself , shes nuts why would he take her back. But like all of us , she was just trying to make her h see what he was doing. breaking up the family and how unfair it was for the younger ow to get everything betty and her h worked so hard for.
What im trying to say is that watching these movies made me see the difference in one lbs being bitter and the other accepting (gracefully) , Maybe these movies will help some lbs see the difference. It makes you take a look at your own behavior.  I hope im  making sense.
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I have only watched It's Complicated that I found very funny, but I wouldn't want to the woman who is sleeping with her now married ex-husband.

Bitterness just eats us up.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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I saw the Betty Brodrick movie. And yes she did appear crazy she spent her whole life raising a family and working. Him going on to get an education then he  decides he wants a new shiny.

I now see her and see a grief stricken woman..she lost everything because of his decisions.

I don't watch many movies with this kind of theme. It was years ago when I watched it.

I think some people, myself included, had some pretty dark thoughts that come from a place of pain during BD and D.
We just don't act on them.

This time for me it's a whole lot different.

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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

b
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Interesting conversation.  I just need a clear definition of "bitterness"...

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1. They desire to make someone else suffer. A bitter person might spew their inner hurt and anger by saying and doing things that hurt the feelings of others, exhibiting ruthless verbal and emotional cruelty.
.

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Here are five habits of bitter people, and how you can avoid developing them!

•Feeling Jaded. Becoming jaded or cynical from something you've experienced can only lead you down an empty and lonely path. ...
•Holding Grudges. ...
•Being Jealous. ...
•Seeking Attention. ...
•Being Negative.
.

I have ( and at times still do ) battled with feelings of bitterness . Maybe its a close cousin of anger. There is no point in me saying anything other than the truth , bitterness has been an issue . I do believe with all my heart that it will destroy any possibility of a happy life, happy relationships , marriage ...all of it. It is a huge enemy and I am very aware that I need to work diligently to change that about myself...and I do work at it . I think ( maybe) some personalities are more prone to holding hurt longer or have little emotional resiliency and just come from a long long line of feisty angry take-no-sh&t women. I come from a loooong line of such women. My mother had ZERO empathy ( never saw any), never complimented , never really "connected " or listened and the 1st time I remember her touching me was when I gave birth to my 1st daughter. She hugged me. I guess I am saying that all I really was modelled was angry , grudge-holding women . No matter what I have to do...that CANNOT be me.

I have to teach myself what others did not. Almost like re-parenting. I need to practise gentle words, softer attitudes, looking and noticing beautiful things , complimenting my kids more often , purposefully recognizing "stinkin thinkin" and work to change it . I cannot imagine letting bitterness win. I do not want to live like that and have discussed it with my therapist. She suggests that perhaps my own self-preservation, defensive mechanisms , fear etc ...keeping pushing people away with anger because I am terrified of being hurt again... Aren't we all?

I think ( for me ) it is a process that I am working thru. I have had little success at "choosing" to be happy ..when I was in such despair. I admire those who say " I choose to be happy and positive" and actually successfully do exactly that ...no matter what . I am still "practising" .

I was watching a documentary a few weeks back about a lady that was an extreme hoarder. She was refusing any intervention or help. Her children were interviewed and said that the father had abandoned the family for an OW 10 years ago and the mother became a hoarder and a recluse. She refused to talk about her husband and what he had done to his family.  A friend told me a big story about her cousin who was a very happily married , high functioning mother of 3 children under 5 . They all adored her husband . He was discovered having a long term affair and moved out once he was confronted. The women sank into a bottomless depression and rarely got out of bed, bathed or functioned at all. The extended family took turns staying with her ( she could not care for the children) until they could no longer do that .The wife was admitted to a mental health facility and the family delivered all 3 children to the father and his OW. Well, that lasted 2 months and the OW left . So the dad returned to the family home with the children and is hoping to repair his marriage. His wife remained in hospital for a very long time.

It is life altering for some people and they suffer greatly and just can no longer function in any capacity. I would assume they had huge abandonment or rejection issues that simply exploded once this happened and life would take a very long time to normalize. Others cope in very different ways and ride this painfull time thru with different emotional strength. All of it is a painful shi$show. But I know that bitterness cannot be part of my future .

I do not believe you can easily "choose" how or who you want to be. The emotions are so extreme, the hurt and shock are so profound and for some suicide is the only option. For some the process of recovery is very long indeed and thru this healing we can start to make better choices as to " who we want to be now". As I find calmer places in my life, safer in my heart and in my own skin , I can make better choices about how I want to live my life .
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Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

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Bitterness for me comes for bitter, someone who is bitter, unpleasant, negative, angry, a constant moaner, someone who is not pleasant being around.

I understand someone may be bitter at BD, or for a while after BD. Or after some other life shacking event. However, someone who remains bitter over time, or all their life, is someone who is not happy, healthy and in a good place. And someone I do not want in my life.

As a general rule, MLCers are bitter. At least towards the LBS. MLCers tend to be a pool of darkness and negativity.

The hoarder woman and the woman who had to went to hospital both suffer from different types of depression. That is a little different than bitter, even if depressed people can be bitter.

Bitterness that does not goe away like anger that does not go away, can be a sign of depression or another serious illness.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

b
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barbiedoll

I agree with what you were saying as i have a huge fear of abandonment/anxious attachement style. This is literally killing me . I can barely function I feel like.  Its interesting the first 5 years or so of our relationship it was the exact opposite of who i am today. I had tons of friends was always busy and the wife didnt like it if i wasn't with her 24/7.  Over the years it changed and I became that person that she was. Now that she wants a D it has literally torn me apart to where I can barely do anything. I was in counseling but it didn't do anything for me.
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S
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As Anjae says - there is a difference between bitterness and reactive depression.

In my view Bitterness is proactive - depression is not.  We can still be depressed but not bitter and equally we can be bitter and not depressed. 

Most, if not all of us will have gone through the first 3/4 stages of grief over and over again soon after BD. We will have cycled wildly and learned new behaviours about ourselves that we did not know we could have.  I venture to bet that all of us have felt anger and all of us have been through reactive depression.

Bitterness usually IMHO comes after that.  Bitterness is holding a grudge. Bitterness is wishing to punish the people who hurt you by being bitter so that they know they P****d you off. Bitterness manifests as perpetual quiet anger, hurtful direct words, sense of self righteousness and also perpetual need to be right even if you are wrong.  Bitterness ultimately becomes a choice after a period of time.  Feeling bitter and being bitter is also different.
All feelings are transitory - they flow through your body creating thoughts which then wash over and out.

Holding onto those bitter feelings because it makes you feel justified or worthy turns you into a bitter person. Being bitter is part of victim mentality.  Yes we were all BD'd - yes we all became victims of MLC but that is where acknowledging that we have been unfairly and unjustly turned aside has to move onto understanding who we are and could be.

Bitterness serves no purpose other than it can propel you forward negatively. 

Choosing not to be bitter is not easy and neither is it easy to switch overnight.  This is where we have to learn to recognise our own language, our own behaviour and our own instinctive patterns.   It's almost as if we have to ask the question " Am I the person I want to be and If I met me in the street what would I think of me?"

If we know that any part of that answer is negative then perhaps we are holding onto a grudge - perhaps we are still feeling victim and perhaps we are still playing the blame game as in " If MLC hadn't happened I wouldn't be like this."

The acceptance has to come from acknowledging and understanding what has happened and that it was nothing to do with you and then accept where you are in your emotional journey. Then you will be able to assess whether you are feeling bitter or being bitter and if you don't want to be there - then self growth is the key.
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BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

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  • How I long for your precepts! Psalm 119:40
I have run from bitterness - it is so easy to let it take root :(

In Hebrews 12:14-15 we see:
Quote
14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

I think that acceptance and forgiveness uproot this in us.

Holding grudges or anger in our hearts will allow bitterness to take root.

Bitter people are not nice to be around and can be hurtful to all who get close.

And yes
As Anjae says - there is a difference between bitterness and reactive depression.

In my view Bitterness is proactive - depression is not.  We can still be depressed but not bitter and equally we can be bitter and not depressed. 

Most, if not all of us will have gone through the first 3/4 stages of grief over and over again soon after BD. We will have cycled wildly and learned new behaviours about ourselves that we did not know we could have.  I venture to bet that all of us have felt anger and all of us have been through reactive depression.

Bitterness usually IMHO comes after that.  Bitterness is holding a grudge. Bitterness is wishing to punish the people who hurt you by being bitter so that they know they P****d you off. Bitterness manifests as perpetual quiet anger, hurtful direct words, sense of self righteousness and also perpetual need to be right even if you are wrong.  Bitterness ultimately becomes a choice after a period of time.  Feeling bitter and being bitter is also different.
All feelings are transitory - they flow through your body creating thoughts which then wash over and out.

Holding onto those bitter feelings because it makes you feel justified or worthy turns you into a bitter person. Being bitter is part of victim mentality. Yes we were all BD'd - yes we all became victims of MLC but that is where acknowledging that we have been unfairly and unjustly turned aside has to move onto understanding who we are and could be.

Bitterness serves no purpose other than it can propel you forward negatively. 





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BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

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Ok maybe I'll ask this question of everyone.

Would you consider it being bitter if someone wanted nothing to do with an ex again? Can't a person not be angry, mad or bitter just done?

I'd find it hard to believe if someone told me they still had some kind of relationship with every single relatives they have or friend they have ever met in their life. Don't people grow and can grow apart? Have little in common. It wasn't a big fight, it just ended?

No one here has ever had a friendship/relationship (relative or no) that there was no way of getting along with that other person. Or they (or you did)  did something distrustful and it ended?
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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Would you consider it being bitter if someone wanted nothing to do with an ex again? Can't a person not be angry, mad or bitter just done?

No. Bitter is bitter, not wanting anything else to do with an ex is not wanting to have anything else to do with an ex.

Most people, regardless of why their relationship broke, don't want to have anything else to do with an ex.

A person can not be angry, bitter and just done. In fact, if a person is still bitter and angry they aren't really done because they still have strong feelings. Done is more like Indifference.

Many relationships, friendships, etc. end. They are meant to end. In many cases, they end and that is it. It is not even a case of being done, it just ended.
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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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I agree the opposite of love isn't anger and hate..those are still emotions.
It's indifference, that is the opposite of love.
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There are two ways of spreading light:
Be the candle; or the mirror that reflects it

Don't ask why someone is still hurting you; ask why you keep letting them.

At some point you have to get sick of going through the same sh!t.

Women are NOT rehabilitation centers for badly raised men. It is not your job to fix ,parent, raise or change him.
You want a partner not a project.

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A person can not be angry, bitter and just done. In fact, if a person is still bitter and angry they aren't really done because they still have strong feelings. Done is more like Indifference.


I see it more like a choice, I choose to consider myself as done and not standing. I still have feelings, probably always will, they come and go, positive and negative.
Angry sometimes but not feeling bitterness, at least I don't recognize it and try never become bitter as it's like "losing twice" to me.
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"I've seen dreams that move the mountains, hope that doesn't ever end even when the sky is falling. I've seen miracles just happen, silent prayers get answered, broken hearts become brand new. That's what faith can do." Kutless

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What an interesting exercise in self reflection. :D

I know when I describe other people if they are bitter or not. The most bitter person I ever met was my mother. She has spewed the same sludge for 32 years. I see bitterness akin to victim hood as they seem to go hand in hand. But similar to Barbie I wanted to really define what bitterness was and look at myself in this situation.

Looking back even after bomb drop I think my feelings have been:
Anger: due to injustice, betrayal, lack of help
Sorrow: loss of my marriage, dreams, best friend
Questioning: was it real, was it all a lie....
Hope

And if I am really honest, sometime there has been a smidge of relief and wonder. What else could be out there? What are other people like? What have I been missing that I didn't even know?

All the different emotions and I still can't find bitterness. The closest I can remember would be BD day, when I found out about the call, and I was so pissed I threatened to march to his work to talk about it there because he was hiding from it. I was tired of hiding from the whole thing, I packed all his clothes into totes to send to MIL until he got himself sorted. But what I was feeling was FURY, and it burned hot before dying off to shock and sorrow.

For a small time after I would think about things like writing a letter to his work to get them both in trouble, or plastering her face all over the centre as a skank...outting them on FB....egging her house.... Lots and lots of crazy ideas, but I never acted on them. I am not sure if those are considered part of bitterness or more a residual anger lingering. I lean toward the latter.

Barbie I thought your post was really great and insightful. That bitterness is probably a very deep thing, with how we are programmed, and how we deal with it as a person.

My mother is a very bitter woman, she has been bitter her whole life. Don't get me wrong she has every right to be. She has all the horrible things that can happen to a woman happen to her over her life time. I can completely understand why she is the way she is. But I also see that her bitterness keeps her lonely, in pain, and she never truly feels loved. Ever. She still lives in what happened between her and my father on a daily basis, and he has been dead for over 4 years now (and they split when I was 3!).

I wonder if my ability to see that, and see her pain, is what helps me not to fall into it.

Ok maybe I'll ask this question of everyone.

Would you consider it being bitter if someone wanted nothing to do with an ex again? Can't a person not be angry, mad or bitter just done?

I'd find it hard to believe if someone told me they still had some kind of relationship with every single relatives they have or friend they have ever met in their life. Don't people grow and can grow apart? Have little in common. It wasn't a big fight, it just ended?

No one here has ever had a friendship/relationship (relative or no) that there was no way of getting along with that other person. Or they (or you did)  did something distrustful and it ended?

I agree with Anjae that you aren't done if you are bitter. You are stuck in a perpetual reliving of the harm that was done to you. Every single day that you wake up thinking about what happened to you just hurts you more. Every plot you come up with, every idea to get them back...to make them pay... You are never done because you never let it go, and it eats you up piece by piece.

Personally I have very little to do with old friends and family. As a kid I had a few best friends but we moved a lot so none ever lasted as long distance friends. My family is about as dysfunctional as it gets. I managed to repair some of my relationship with my father before he died. My mother has a list of problems including bitter victim hood, bipolar, and a selfish streak that is almost impressive. We have never been close because we are so very different. I remember as a child I would have done anything for my mother, but she would not have done the same for me. That broke something that will never be fixed. I do not feel anger or bitterness to her, I just feel indifferent or apart. I love her because she holds the title of mother, but I wouldn't say she ''feels'' like my mother. I get occasional phone calls where I am akin to her therapist, she never asks about how I am doing...even knowing my situation. My sister is basically satan reincarnated so...when I left the only time I have spoken to her is my dad's funeral. I likely won't speak to her again until my mother's. After that...probably never.

I effectively cut my whole family out of my life, but I didn't do it out of bitterness or anger. I did it because I was done. These people had caused me so much pain in my childhood, and would continue to do so if I allowed it. We have extremely different views on the world, values, and...perspectives. It was easier and safer to be alone than be with them. So I left. I do not think it was bitterness, as I wish them no harm, and hope each one finds their own happiness...but I just couldn't tolerate anymore pain from them. Effectively I feel indifferent to them for the most part, and I am sure if one passes I will be sad for a time...but it honestly will not be something I am crying over years later.

In terms of distrustful I could fill up an entire 15 page forum with it. But I suppose one of the big things my mom did to break my trust even further than it was  ::) was when I got married. I left my mother over 3K so that her and my satan sister could buy dresses and fly out for my wedding. I made the mistake to assume my mother would want to see her oldest child (and likely only one to get married) on her wedding day.  :o I knew my mother ''would never have the money'' so I gave it to her. She sent links to pick out dresses, asked about flights, asked where they would stay....and then she used all the money to get herself into a new rental house instead. She never came to my wedding even though I had gave her the money. I can not tell you how much that hurt, for years afterwards. Still I did not become bitter toward her, it made me angry for a time because I was hurt, but then I just reset to indifferent.
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I left my mother over 3K so that her and my satan sister could buy dresses and fly out for my wedding. I made the mistake to assume my mother would want to see her oldest child (and likely only one to get married) on her wedding day.  :o I knew my mother ''would never have the money'' so I gave it to her. She sent links to pick out dresses, asked about flights, asked where they would stay....and then she used all the money to get herself into a new rental house instead. She never came to my wedding even though I had gave her the money. I can not tell you how much that hurt, for years afterwards. Still I did not become bitter toward her, it made me angry for a time because I was hurt, but then I just reset to indifferent.
This is horrific beaut, im so sorry. They say that you can choose your friends but not your family  :-[
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For a small time after I would think about things like writing a letter to his work to get them both in trouble, or plastering her face all over the centre as a skank...outting them on FB....egging her house.... Lots and lots of crazy ideas, but I never acted on them. I am not sure if those are considered part of bitterness or more a residual anger lingering. I lean toward the latter.

Lingering residual anger, I would say. Nothing wrong with, early on, have that type of thoughts. We want justice, to make them suffer and maybe even revenge. All normal human feelings. The only problem is when they still exist years down the road.

Agree with Song, there is a difference between feeling bitter, that can be a thing of the moment about any matter, and being bitter.

LBS aren't supposed to erase all human feelings, we all feel less good things, often non-MLC related, at times.
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Lingering residual anger, I would say. Nothing wrong with, early on, have that type of thoughts. We want justice, to make them suffer and maybe even revenge. All normal human feelings. The only problem is when they still exist years down the road.


Agree, recognizing anger and coping with it is important phase in any divorce (or any R breakdown)  when not mutually agreed. Denying it won't make it disappear for good but creates bitterness.
Anger is considered as 'negative' feeling, but actually it has an important role from getting emotional distance from our ex's. I see anger as very pure and honest feeling which has to be accepted and at least somehow dealed with and not letting it turn inwards, against oneself.

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I effectively cut my whole family out of my life, but I didn't do it out of bitterness or anger. I did it because I was done. These people had caused me so much pain in my childhood, and would continue to do so if I allowed it. We have extremely different views on the world, values, and...perspectives. It was easier and safer to be alone than be with them. So I left. I do not think it was bitterness, as I wish them no harm, and hope each one finds their own happiness...but I just couldn't tolerate anymore pain from them. Effectively I feel indifferent to them for the most part, and I am sure if one passes I will be sad for a time...but it honestly will not be something I am crying over years later.

This makes me so sad and at the same time so grateful.
My sister and I are very close and close enough to be honest, say it like it is and each of us has the other's back.  I was brought up in a small family and the values instilled in me were about kindness and respect (sometimes to my own detriment where I later discovered led to a needing of self worth). I only have  and ever had one aunt and my two cousins and I are now much closer both geographically as well as emotionally as we have aged.  Our parents died a few years apart over 22 yrs ago now.

I find it so sad that so many of you on here did not have a happy childhood and did not feel valued or treated with respect at any age.  I almost cannot understand (MLC aside)  why mothers or fathers would treat their children or relatives in such a way. I do understand that there will always be issues that may be driving that but as a mother myself I couldn't treat my daughter the way your mother treated you Mortes.  I just don't get it. It's so wrong, just so wrong.

I am also full of admiration for those of you (and sadly it seems that there are many of you on here)  who made the decision to break with toxic people in families and to face your future head on regardless of such family conflict.  All respect to you all.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 02:18:47 AM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
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I have 3 cousins who are all sisters. Their mom left when they were young, and they were raised by their father...they are so close. Best friends whose children have grown up together.

I truly wish that could have been me and my sisters, but it just never was or could be. I often wonder why that is. Why some siblings are so close, why we aren't. I suppose just like people deal with situations based on their personality.....the environment shaped us as siblings. We could have bonded through the trauma and gotten stronger, but the things that were done to us divided us. There are some horrific things I could tell you about those days, but suffice it to say my father thought it amusing to pit us against each other almost like fighting dogs in a pit....and punish us all as a group for one person's mistakes. It was never going to be possible for us to bond meaningfully. I loved my sisters so much when I was a kid, in fact probably until I was in my 20s.

My youngest sister is only a half sister, so she was often with her mother and we were the step kids.

My satan sister thinks everything bad that happened in our childhood is my fault...she finds fault in everything I do. She was mad I was there, was mad when I left, hell she even tried to say something that happened to her daughter was my fault and I had been living here for 12 years.  :o :o  She is just mad at the world, and still is.

But I would have loved to have a best friend/sister. To go shopping at the mall, and talk about boys, and fight over nail polish. It always seemed so nice.

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Is throwing a truth dart sounding like a bitter lbs?
My h cant handle them and gets very angry.  Maybe it is not a good idea but i feel if  i dont then h thinks im ok with some of the things he does. 
He recently went on vacation with ow and her 4 kids.  but doesnt have money now for d 19 knee brace for $700 she needs after surgery.  of course i said he was too busy spending money on someone elses kids. He says he doesnt spend money on them (ha ha) and they were just there on vacation but not with him . (great justification) 
So do i sound bitter? jealous?  or just realistic?
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I tend to let a truth dart throw itself...

But when I do use them it is in humour with just enough bite to make him think.

I think ''You are too busy spending money on someone else's kids'' does make you sound jealous. Next time try something like ''Yeah vacations will do that to you''.

You don't have to mention OW or her kids. Just a simple well placed fact. HE knows he spent it on a vacation and OW. You look like you are just being polite and agreeing that vacations are costly. He will do all the work for you.  ;)
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If you throw a truth dart use a neutral tone.

Morte is correct that when you make a point of sounding as though blame is being apportioned it makes you sound bitter.

EG instead of saying " Well no wonder you have no money if you keep spending it on OW/other things"

Say " I'm sorry you have no money; that's what happens when you keep spending it ." 

You don't need to say what on - he will know that. By stepping back and leaving it open the MLCer knows enough to accept that it's actually his problem.

You can be more direct with other situations. One of my favourite when H would monster about why he had to see OW and was throwing blame my or the children's way was " I'm sorry you feel that way but you know it's not true" and walk away.

MLCers know; and developing truth darts takes time but the neutral tone is a must.
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You could always simply ask "I don't understand. You had money for a vacation, but not any for Ds brace? How did that happen?" Then they have to truth dart themselves.  But it has to be delivered in a completely neutral tone.

When ExH decided that S needed to be a resident of the state where ExH lives and S is going to school, I could no longer insure S on my car insurance. ExH monstered, telling me I was trying to punish S. I simply said, "You decided to tell S to become a resident of that state without discussing it with me or asking if there would be any problems. As a result,  $20,000 more was spent for tuition that didn't need to be spent and I am unable to insure S on my car insurance. You now need to find him insurance." All facts, all truth. Straight up. I paid none of the additional tuition. I'm not paying for someone else's stupidity, but note I didn't say that.  ;D

I definitely still feel bitter from time to time, but it's not my lifestyle.An interesting observation about MLCers I have known. They all seemed very bitter, as if it was some other entity that caused them all their pain when it was really their own choices that got them where they were. Are bitterness and blame bedfellows? Can you have bitterness without blame?
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Are bitterness and blame bedfellows? Can you have bitterness without blame?

Good question.  I would like to say yes but then trying to think about a situation where I have been bitter (before any MLC) and was that a result of blame.  Not always.  I was passed over at work for promotion and was bitter for a while but there was no direct cause of blame.  Looking back I know it was the right decision because I was better not doing that particular job (if that makes sense).
I have been rejected for roles and been a bit bitter (I know I would be better) but still no-one to blame.

However this level of bitterness is short term, transitory and essentially small fry and usually borne (as in my case) out of a need to be validated.

MLC LBS bitterness is up a few levels.....
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MLC LBS bitterness is up a few levels.....

As it should be!

When someone has repeatedly LIED to you after promising to love and honor you forever, it's a betrayal like no other.  I think even Mother Theresa would be rendered speechless.

We've all "earned" any bitterness that has ensued, IMO.  For me, I'll never be able to trust anyone ever again.  Bitterness?  Perhaps.  But also the sad reality.....
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MLC LBS bitterness is up a few levels.....

As it should be!

When someone has repeatedly LIED to you after promising to love and honor you forever, it's a betrayal like no other.  I think even Mother Theresa would be rendered speechless.

We've all "earned" any bitterness that has ensued, IMO.  For me, I'll never be able to trust anyone ever again.  Bitterness?  Perhaps.  But also the sad reality.....

You are right. We have earned the right to be as bitter as we like.

But it only holds you back, and keeps you stuck as a victim in your story.

Do you want to be the victim or the hero?
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Bitterness doesn’t feel good. Not at all. Feeling angry and resentful is life draining. No one “earns” the feeling of bitterness like a hard won prize.
The hard won prize is when we get to a place of moving past the bitterness. Doesn’t mean forget. Doesn’t mean forgive. But imho you can’t get anywhere good if you don’t jump the first hurdle of letting the bitterness go.
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Is throwing a truth dart sounding like a bitter lbs?
My h cant handle them and gets very angry.  Maybe it is not a good idea but i feel if  i dont then h thinks im ok with some of the things he does. 
He recently went on vacation with ow and her 4 kids.  but doesnt have money now for d 19 knee brace for $700 she needs after surgery.  of course i said he was too busy spending money on someone elses kids. He says he doesnt spend money on them (ha ha) and they were just there on vacation but not with him . (great justification) 
So do i sound bitter? jealous?  or just realistic?

That's about the worst thing a man can do, spending $ on someone else's kids when his own kid is in need!

I'm struggling with the same concept that you are; I so desperately want to get my husband to see and understand some truth, but because the truth is always something negative about him, the truth makes him angry, and if he gets angry at anything I say, then suddenly I'm a terrible person in his eyes, especially because nobody else is saying anything negative about him… Because no one else knows him well enough, or spends enough time interacting with him, to get past the veneer of formal politeness to see what he's really like. I don't know what the right answer is for your situation, but unfortunately for my own situation I mostly end up biting my tongue, because in the bigger picture, having as little negativity as possible in our interactions is the higher goal, rather than trying to get him to accept truth that he isn't ready to hear yet.
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Do you want to be the victim or the hero?

Interesting conundrum.

Because what separates a "hero" from a "sad sack?"  At least the term "victim" is finite, and clearly defined....
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« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 02:31:50 PM by megogirl »

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I think they win if we let bitterness infect our lives and how we see the world actually.
Perhaps not being bitter is a special kind of FU to crazy nasty people.  :)
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I think even Mother Theresa would be rendered speechless.

She may have been but she would also have been able to forgive. Mother Teresa had to contend with a lot and never lost her grace, dignity or compassion for others whilst retaining an inner steel core.

We could all learn a lot from her. 
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I know, I know...."love them anyway."

I've tried to make that my mantra for Standing.  But when he called OW "my girlfriend" in the (latest) police interview/report, that was the straw that broke this camel's back.

Unlike Mother Theresa, I just don't have the wherewithal to forgive any longer. 

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I think they win if we let bitterness infect our lives and how we see the world actually.
Perhaps not being bitter is a special kind of FU to crazy nasty people.  :)

I love this whole comment but especially the enlarged, boldened sentence.  There is some special kind of FU to crazy, nasty people about it.  I can't think of any better way to get even, then to survive this and LIVE WELL!  Oh yea... that's evening the score beautifully and with grace. 

Hugs Stayed
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L or C,  yes I think that is the worst thing a man can do is spend money on someone elses kids than his own.   My  d needs  a knee brace after her surgery. I am not asking him to pay for a concert or something fun for d.   All I can hope for is that trip made him feel so bad about what he is doing. like not being there for d. He left right after her surgery and was not around  the days after to help.  maybe drop off a lunch or something to that affect.  I took a couple days off, which I lost money for ( not that i cared) but he went on to spend money and take someone elses kids to get pizza while my d was in pain and nauseous.  SO firetruckING WRONG ! HOw can one not be bitter about that?
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I think they win if we let bitterness infect our lives and how we see the world actually.
Perhaps not being bitter is a special kind of FU to crazy nasty people.  :)

I love this whole comment but especially the enlarged, boldened sentence.  There is some special kind of FU to crazy, nasty people about it.  I can't think of any better way to get even, then to survive this and LIVE WELL!  Oh yea... that's evening the score beautifully and with grace. 

Hugs Stayed

Also, if they are able to accuse us of bitterness,  it justifies their decisions.  I don’t think eschewing bitterness has to include forgiveness, but it does take detachment, which is why it can be hard when our children are affected.

One thing I feel, more and more, is that we expect them to think like we do.  Since their actions are often quite bizarre, we need to begin to realise that a significant proportion of these people do. It think like us.  Perhaps this is a temporary state or perhaps more permanent.  But their wiring is working differently. There are a number of reasons why, to do with mental health through to personality adaptations or as far as diagnosable disorders.  But reaching out to point out their wrong thinking is NOT going to persuade them to say “Oh yes, now you mention it, my actions are wrong and I will change them”.

So truth darts applied rarely, and neutrally might just have a tiny effect eventually, but don’t bet on it.
Much better to apply all the strength we can muster into growing meaning within our own lives and families.  There are genuine reasons why they might come around eventually, but these are to do with guilt and reparation and often have to do with seeing that they haven’t destroyed us as,subconsciously, many of them fear.  Bitterness frightens them because it shows we are damaged.  (It’s more complex than that but for them to discover if they wanted)   That’s why detachment is pushed so hard here and is key for us whatever the outcome. 
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Hello,

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but he went on to spend money and take someone elses kids to get pizza while my d was in pain and nauseous.  SO firetruckING WRONG ! HOw can one not be bitter about that?

That's not bitter, that's outrageous. From my perspective, I always felt bitter described an overall resentment and anger that spilled into all aspects of life. In other words, the anger is not just directed at the cause, but in all interactions.

The worker at the job that is angry and mean to everyone, or the person hurt in a relationship that won't let anyone close to them ever again. To me, that's my definition of bitter.

In your situation, you didn't lash out at you daughter or yell at the doctors. You were justifiable in your anger at you h for his treatment of his daughter. His actions caused an appropriate reaction.

If I saw a stranger hitting a child, I would be angry and intervene. That's not being bitter. However, if I take that issue and assume all people hit children and live my life angry- that's bitter.

Just my opinion,

(((((Ready)))))
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Do you want to be the victim or the hero?

Interesting conundrum.

Because what separates a "hero" from a "sad sack?"  At least the term "victim" is finite, and clearly defined....

What separates a hero from a ''sad sack'' is their character. The ability to get up, even after being knocked down, and try again. To push forward even against the odds, as a team or all alone. To fight a battle no one thinks they can win. Doing whatever it takes to get the job done.

Every famous hero could be viewed as a victim. They always have a dark part in their story. Where the villain, or bag guys, or circumstance, knocked them flat out on their ass. It is what they choose to do afterwards that determines if they are the victim or the hero. The same is very true in life.
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I think they win if we let bitterness infect our lives and how we see the world actually.
Perhaps not being bitter is a special kind of FU to crazy nasty people.  :)

I love this whole comment but especially the enlarged, boldened sentence.  There is some special kind of FU to crazy, nasty people about it.  I can't think of any better way to get even, then to survive this and LIVE WELL!  Oh yea... that's evening the score beautifully and with grace. 

Hugs Stayed

Also, if they are able to accuse us of bitterness,  it justifies their decisions.  I don’t think eschewing bitterness has to include forgiveness, but it does take detachment, which is why it can be hard when our children are affected.

One thing I feel, more and more, is that we expect them to think like we do.  Since their actions are often quite bizarre, we need to begin to realise that a significant proportion of these people do. It think like us.  Perhaps this is a temporary state or perhaps more permanent.  But their wiring is working differently. There are a number of reasons why, to do with mental health through to personality adaptations or as far as diagnosable disorders.  But reaching out to point out their wrong thinking is NOT going to persuade them to say “Oh yes, now you mention it, my actions are wrong and I will change them”.

So truth darts applied rarely, and neutrally might just have a tiny effect eventually, but don’t bet on it.
Much better to apply all the strength we can muster into growing meaning within our own lives and families.  There are genuine reasons why they might come around eventually, but these are to do with guilt and reparation and often have to do with seeing that they haven’t destroyed us as,subconsciously, many of them fear.  Bitterness frightens them because it shows we are damaged.  (It’s more complex than that but for them to discover if they wanted)   That’s why detachment is pushed so hard here and is key for us whatever the outcome.

This.

Do you want to be the victim or the hero?

Interesting conundrum.

Because what separates a "hero" from a "sad sack?"  At least the term "victim" is finite, and clearly defined....

What separates a hero from a ''sad sack'' is their character. The ability to get up, even after being knocked down, and try again. To push forward even against the odds, as a team or all alone. To fight a battle no one thinks they can win. Doing whatever it takes to get the job done.

Every famous hero could be viewed as a victim. They always have a dark part in their story. Where the villain, or bag guys, or circumstance, knocked them flat out on their ass. It is what they choose to do afterwards that determines if they are the victim or the hero. The same is very true in life.

And this.
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Immediately following BD, I caught myself sticking a straw into a glass of poison of bitterness. 
It frightened me enough to seek to change my perspective and acquire different habits of thinking about what just had happened to me.  I searched on how to go about it.  I found the following in my MLC info folder.  It was a mirror for me.  It describes what I didn’t want end up to be.

Here it is for what it is worth.

———————
Persons harboring bitterness frequently display the following characteristics:

Verbal and Emotional Cruelty

A bitter person might temporarily purge their inner hurt and anger by saying things and doing things that hurt the feelings of others. Somehow, it makes the bitter individual feel better for a minute to see someone else suffer as they perceive themselves to be unfairly suffering.

Hatred

Sometimes feelings of anger and inner pain rise to the level of genuine loathing. The more chronic or intense the bitterness a person has, the more likely they are to develop feelings of hatred.

Implacability

Sometimes, there is simply no pleasing a bitter person. Although others might be manipulated at times into attempting to soothe the pain they’re in, the bitter person cannot really be placated by an external source because the root of their unhappiness is strictly internal.

Self-Pity

The bitter person often feels cheated by others and short-changed by life in general. It’s almost impossible for such a person to experience genuine gratitude because of how much they feel they’ve been denied their due. They often feel so sorry for themselves that it’s very hard for anyone else to feel sorry for them.

Antagonism

When a person is chronically bitter, they’re often in the process of looking for a fight. If no immediate opportunity exists for a battle, they might just provoke one. They’ll say or do something to get a ruckus started. After it’s over, they feel a little better, while almost everyone else is only embittered toward them.

Vindictiveness

Frequently on the lookout for perceived slights, bitter people often look for ways to get back at those they view as having neglected, abused, disrespected, or ignored them. Vengeful and spiteful, they seek to cause anguish in the lives of those whom they view as being insufficiently caring or concerned about them.

Pathological Pride

From the bitter person’s point of view, it’s the world that’s done them wrong and deserves the full expression of their righteous wrath. Bring their hateful behavior to their attention, and attempt to get them to see how it’s led to their alienation from others, and you’ll only find yourself proving their point about how uncaring, insensitive, and hurtful others can be.

Animosity and Resentment

It’s hard for the bitter soul to experience joy at the success or well-being of others. Instead, the bitter person views the good fortune of someone else as more evidence that they have not been given a fair shake themselves.

Infantile Narcissism

The bitter person simply cannot see beyond their immediate wants. They are inherently emotionally needy. And the intensity of their neediness severely impairs their capacity to be mindful of the needs and feelings of others.

From: https://counsellingresource.com/features/2011/09/19/high-cost-bitterness/
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:25:13 AM by Acorn »
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

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Oh dear, Acorn...it is like a set of MLC ingredients isn't it?
What an interesting list. Makes you wonder just how bitter our spouses are/were....
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

A
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MLC ingredients, they are.
I think they equally apply to LBS as well.
In fact, I had the thread title (...a bitter LBS...) in my mind when I searched for the article in my stash.

My thinking is that just as happiness and love are choice, so are bitterness and hatred. 
If I had thought ‘I cannot help being bitter’, I would not have searched the topic of bitterness. 
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 11:39:19 AM by Acorn »
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

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I don't much like the fact that I still often feel sad or lonely or miss my h and even sometimes a bit bewildered by being here and how awful it was. All of those feelings are infinitely better than this list or the kind of life this list would create.
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

N
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Oh dear, Acorn...it is like a set of MLC ingredients isn't it?
What an interesting list. Makes you wonder just how bitter our spouses are/were....

Just  what I was thinking!

I was also going to say that for me, the importance of being heard and my hurt recognises has been of huge importance in tempering this kind of reaction.  It wells up when I feel deflected or dismissed.  I’m not sure the power of empathy in helping us to heal, even when our reactions are not entirely sensible or reasonable, is not always fully appreciated.
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Acorn:
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My thinking is that just as happiness and love are choice, so are bitterness and hatred.

What a wonderful list!

I watched a CNN program last night called Chasing Life with Dr, Sanja Gupta. The episode I watched was about how in Norway, people are really very happy. There are a multitude of reasons (although the long darkness of winter and cold would not make me very happy) but it is a choice and an attitude. One thing that stood out, and what we say often to LBSers was the importance of getting your body moving, particularly good if you can do activities outdoors. All kinds of psychological benefits and physiological release of endorphins.

My MLCer told me he "resented me" and actually I think resentment and bitterness are similar. A few years ago, he smugly told me that he didn't resent me anymore...he had got beyond that. I am still puzzled as to what exactly he resented me for.
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"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

K
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Every single thing on the bitter list is my H!   and maybe im not bitter just extremely angry for right now! Who in the world can do that ! maybe if he was with ow,  but the kids too just topped the list of worldest biggest  @$$hole , deadbeat dad regardless of mlc.   The most selfish person I have ever known!
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L
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I grew up with an extremely bitter and jealous mother. She resented anything good that happened in my life. She was forever the victim for numerous reasons. She never let go of the reasons and could recount, starting all the way back to 1943, every way in which she had been wronged.

I swore I would never end up like her. She passed away about 4 years before BD, but she would have been delighted that my M blew up. She told me from the beginning of my M that it would never last. So she was sort of right, it only lasted 34 years. ::)

I am sorry for the way the M ended, but I continue to find my stride and be thankful for the things that I do have, and have had in my life.

Acorn, I really like your list. It really encompassed all the facets of a bitter person, and my mother ticked all of them. So sad to live life completely absorbed in the "why me" camp.

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Perhaps not being bitter is a special kind of FU to crazy nasty people.  :)

I am certainly giving that FU on a daily basis. It really does mess with their minds. LOL
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trying2bok

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Ouch, where was that list when I most needed it... hehehe!  It's not funny, but I just about killed myself with my anger and bitterness.  I started having anxiety attacks, unable to eat, sleep... oh my, I was one angry, bitter lady. 

I eventually came out of it, solely because I became "sick and tired of being sick and tired"!  It was rotting my soul from the inside out.  Not to mention the outside wasn't looking too good either, as I was skinny and haggard.

Great discussion... hugs Stayed
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Married 42yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
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