Poll

Did your MLCer say negative things to you about the OP?

Yes, while involved - a few things, but stopped
9 (37.5%)
Yes, while involved - a lot of things, but stopped
0 (0%)
Yes, while involved - and continues to do so
3 (12.5%)
Yes, while involved - but said them only to others, not to me
2 (8.3%)
No - and not to others, that I am aware of
10 (41.7%)
Yes, but only after OP was gone
0 (0%)
NOT at first but did later - yet stayed with OP for some time
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: Discussion Negative MLCer comments about the OP  (Read 730 times)

Online RedStarTopic starter

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Discussion Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2019, 09:15:14 AM »
My H moved from saying she was his soul mate that he had been searching for to " she only wanted a maintenance man and sometimes I think she is really thick" as well as calling her children "utterly dysfunctional" and eventually calling her a "paranoid nutcase" - all in the space of under a year and he still stuck with her for another 2.5 yrs after that.

I have no idea who broke it off... none!

Wow S&D! I have read your threads but this puts it very starkly. It is just such utter insanity! Can I say that I am glad he's not still pretending how great she was and came to his damn senses (well...to some fair degree anyway)?

It is also very interesting that you don't know that last bit.

At this point I can now imagine letting answers to some things emerge (or not) without making an effort to uncover them with direct questions. Which is not how I used to be. It can be a peaceful approach.

Offline Treasur

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2019, 09:16:52 AM »
I suspect that the pull to triangulation in an MLCer - and it does happen, even did with my vanisher who wanted my 'advice' on what he should do post-watchgate  ::)....but I know enough psychology bc of my trade to spot a triangle at 500 paces so no response from me  :)...is born of a couple of MLC bits of script.
1. They see us and them as somehow part of the same persona, so their reality should be ours.
2. Many are used to LBS who are good fixers and a bit of them wants an easy rescue from their own mess
3. They are often not very clear thinking, pretty self-centred and without much empathy...so sometimes they just brain vomit what they are thinking in a given moment without considering the effect or the audience.

Not all triangulation is conscious...actually even in normal life, mostly it is not. Until we get a little insight and start to see repeating patterns in our relationships with others.

The MLCer even in Monster imho is a lot less consciously dastardly or planfully manipulative than it feels when we are on the receiving end. Our fear makes them bigger and more powerful in our heads for a while perhaps. But most, even when they get a kick out of hurting us as some do sometimes, seem to just rollout a series of knee jerk emotional reactions. And many MLCer do show patterns of feeling like a victim, acting like a persecutor and rescuing an ow/om  :)

But the point I read in what Nerissa says is that once WE see that we are reacting as part of a triangle that doesn't serve us, the only way to change that is for US to step off the triangle.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2019, 09:23:07 AM »
My H moved from saying she was his soul mate that he had been searching for to " she only wanted a maintenance man and sometimes I think she is really thick" as well as calling her children "utterly dysfunctional" and eventually calling her a "paranoid nutcase" - all in the space of under a year and he still stuck with her for another 2.5 yrs after that.

I have no idea who broke it off... none!

This is a good point. I think they often start off with a fantasy in their head, not an OP, but just a fantasy. They find ANYONE to insert into that fantasy, and for a while they wear blinkers to the fact that person doesn't actually match the fantasy, but after a while they do start to notice.

In fact, I think the above survey should have had an option for them NOT saying negative things in the beginning but later starting to complain. I suspect that scenario as Song describes may be more common than the rest.
Beware fellow LBSes serving Kool-Aid. You will attract many who will tell you what you want to hear, but it may be very very far from the truth.

Online RedStarTopic starter

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2019, 09:40:24 AM »
They are often not very clear thinking, pretty self-centred and without much empathy...so sometimes they just brain vomit what they are thinking in a given moment without considering the effect or the audience.

Yes I think this is similar to what I meant by "out of the mouths of overgrown zombie teens." Stuff just pops out, whether actions or words, and we see this strange blend of child and the adult we thought was in normal control of him or herself.

Quote
And many MLCer do show patterns of feeling like a victim, acting like a persecutor and rescuing an ow/om  :)

Yes, yes, and yes. Mine was (is) doing them all at once, that's for sure.

(Though I have disallowed the persecution of me by stepping OUT of the way. He can persecute the urchin all he wants. I know she will get on his nerves eventually--well, more than she already has from the beginning. But, like Shock's sis once did, he chooses to overlook OP's red flags.)

I was just thinking this the other day as I happened across a presentation on the drama triangle. And I was like...if this person had displayed ANY of this when I met him, I would have run the other way. This is what is so WTF. But I guess he was doing his best to seem emotionally healthy. Can't fault him for that, I suppose. And maybe he was, just for a while.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:55:50 AM by RedStar »

Online RedStarTopic starter

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2019, 09:44:38 AM »
In fact, I think the above survey should have had an option for them NOT saying negative things in the beginning but later starting to complain. I suspect that scenario as Song describes may be more common than the rest.

I was waiting for someone to mention a missing poll question...there always seems to be at least one! I'll see if I can add it. I had the one where it's only afterward, but yes, S&D's was during.

Online RedStarTopic starter

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2019, 10:00:02 AM »
I think they often start off with a fantasy in their head, not an OP, but just a fantasy. They find ANYONE to insert into that fantasy, and for a while they wear blinkers to the fact that person doesn't actually match the fantasy, but after a while they do start to notice.

And this too does seem to be so characteristic, the cart-before-the-horse order it seems these particular people appear to employ. It's not the way we usually think of cheaters in the normal world going about it, I don't think. But who knows...maybe some of them do it that way too.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2019, 10:13:06 AM »
I agree with what you write 1 T,  and my journey towards detachment has been as long as yours at least - and I’m not there properly yet.  The simplicity of my claim is too simplistic for the chaos, as you say, but people who are emotionally healthy don’t triangulate - well we all can triangulate to some degree within families, but not to destruction usually.  So I’m not saying they are doing it deliberately or that it is painless for them.  I think mostly they are doing it unconsciously and are very unhappy, but unconsciously it is serving a purpose of which they are unaware.  A destructive purpose that comes from experiences in childhood and often the generations before.

I think my belief is that what I wrote  is the stark reality.  That if they were mature and whole they would see they are in trouble and do something.  I have. You have.   So has just about everyone in here.   But spouses are not healthy.  We can try and help them and rescue - whatever - there can be few in here who were more likely to consider themselves indispensable to their spouses than I, or who focused more on their spouse than themselves than I. But it was a mistake. 

In order to save ourselves we have to look at the unvarnished facts of our life and decide how to act.  It took me an age to accept that I wasn’t different and  during that time I neglected myself, I didn’t look at my own dysfunction since I wasn’t the one having an affair and leaving, and i under parented   and I relied more than is fair on friends to support me and I moped around and wailed and felt terribly sad for myself. I had a breakdown according to my T and am still traumatised. She said I was quite unwell.  Many of us are and need kindness.

Although your H divorced he is  still Very attached to you and keeping you quite close, thus continuing the triangle.  It isn’t a criticism, just an observation.  I’m not suggesting you are remaining on the triangle - you understand  your interactions and responses and your emotional involvement.

The comment I made about acknowledging a compulsion and not knowing why they have it... well my H said it to me and I replied ‘doesn’t that tell you you need help?’  When, a year later I mentioned the conversation  to my academic tutor at university - his words were the same.  Yes, they are logical statements applied where there is no logic, but his words were to encourage me to see the truth of my circumstances.  They were aimed at me not my H.  He is letting me know my H is off with the fairies and not much I can do.

 More recently he said, obliquely, that’s he has in the past told clients in bad relationships he cannot work with them until they are out of the bad relationship as we cannot focus on a relationship and do Psychodynamic work on ourselves.   He is not my therapist, he is my tutor, so he can be direct with me in a way he could not  if he were my therapist.   but my pastoral tutor and my own therapist, and my ‘group process’ analyst,  all university teachers would prefer to see me move towards my own health and autonomy than try to understand the illogical. 


 They are not going to rush me - in fact my therapist said half way through the year she had been concerned that my studies would push me faster than I was ready for but that doesn’t seem to have been the case, even though after almost two years of therapy,  I am only at the start of my own analysis because I’ve spent so much time worrying about my marriage that she has been supporting my mourning and holding me together.

So I agree that we need time and I have experienced that I cannot move faster than my ability to let go; that I can ‘see’ reality sooner than I am capable of acting on it; but that doesn’t change reality or what I have to do for myself eventually.

Im not sure that therapists don’t understand mlc.  Their  responsibility is to us their clients not the mlc person and no professional therapist will diagnose the mental health of someone they haven’t met (even though they privately may  recognise certain issues).  And then, although mlc is a useful phrase to cover a grouping  of similar behaviours and symptoms, I think that if mlc people were to go to (good) therapy, there would be discoverable reasons for their behaviour, some of which, it’s painful to learn, will involve the dynamics of the relationship with us.   As you rightly say, there is no point dragging an mlc person to therapy if they don’t actively want it, but these reasons will be specific to the individual.  They just appeared at mid life for reasons we all know from each other’s stories.

So if I come across as unsympathetic and rigid, I don’t mean to.  It’s taken me an age to detach.  I see our spouses as hurting and treatable but only if they want it and I’ve only recently accepted emotionally that I can’t provide the help.   They aren’t insane and have capacity to make choices however unwise but now my H s choices are not mine to worry about.  I’m picking up on threads  which speak to where I am on my journey and using all of you to explore that and appreciate hearing all of your ideas and experiences too.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:18:24 AM by Nerissa »

Online 1trouble

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2019, 10:54:43 AM »
Nerissa,

If I came across critical I apologise

Just to be clear, my MLC'er would have totally disappeared had I also mirrored his contact (or lack of it) BUT I had a therapist that encouraged me to maintain some contact, not constant but just now and again,

And I remember reading some stories where a MLC'er had said I would have totally disappeared in the fog if it wasn't for the link to home....I want to clarify though in case any newbies are reading this, that I totally believe now, with more experience less is more on the contact front and it took me time to realise that he progressed a lot further and did far more processing when left alone.

I absolutely agree with you regarding the experiences of childhood as I believe that MLC has routes in stunted emotional development and childhood trauma/experiences and emotionally remote parenting …..and I also agree if they were emotionally mature they would be able to navigate midlife and traumatic events far better and not go into crisis.


I think you are being very hard on yourself when you said you moped around for a long time, I would argue that this is one of the hardest things anyone would have to cope with, because it is so misunderstood and therefore the understanding of society, the medical profession, employers, family friends is not so readily available as it would be to someone who was bereaved for example.  We are blindsided, this is not a normal break up, there are no warning signs there is no slow decline of a long term relationship.  I am not surprised your therapist thinks you had a breakdown, I am surprised it doesnt happen to others and I am surprised I am still standing with everything that has happened, not just MLC but everything else that I have had to contend with healthwise and otherwise since.

I can understand the comments of your academic tutor regarding not being able to help someone in abusive or controlling relationships and I think the same logic can be applied to a MLC'er and the OW/OM, but to an LBS I do think its more complex than that.

Yes a MLC'er is being abusive in the touch and goes and the anger and all the stuff we read on here but in many ways the LBS is not actively being controlled they are having problems coming to terms with what has happened, seeing the person they love in front of them but acting like an alien and that is something that messes with the mind and is completely different from any situation anyone in real life can comprehend unless they have been there and lived through it

And of course all of your therapists, friends family and everyone in real life would prefer you to concentrate on yourself but then I think they just do not comprehend this is a bereavement and a massive shock to us so NO I don't think any therapists understand. would they say these things to a person suffering a bereavement from a shock accident where there was no body and they have lost the person who was their world and then found out that person was also having an affair...?(thats the nearest analogy I can come with that covers what we are dealing with) 

And depending on the training of the therapist (psychodynamic being one type of therapy) some therapists would realise the person in front of them may have to come to terms with whats happened before they can then move onto what they are going to do about it and then talk about themselves.  Yes their responsibility is to their client but surely you have to examine how and why your client is thinking what they are thinking and feeling what they are feeling so you can help them realise when some of their thinking and feeling is possibly flawed and not serving them well and I don't think, as I said before they fully understand the trauma of what has happened AND some therapists as I have read on here and absolutely shocking.....

But sorry I absolutely disagree that someone in the eye of the storm of MLC would be able to be helped by even the best therapist or top psychiatrist its like talking to someone high on drugs in the throws of an addiction, you would not penetrate the addiction
Its my opinion that you can  help someone pre MLC as they are starting to feel numb BUT only if there is no OW/OM on the scene AND its very very hard to recognise the beginnings because its all under the surface...….

ANd you can help someone when they are coming out of it...providing again there is no OW/OM....because its like helping someone who wants to give up their addiction but is only half committed to it

I get your frustration of course I do, I wanted to lock my MLC'er in a room for a few years and stop him doing what he was and is doing BUT I have accepted FINALLY I have no control over this only myself

Sorry I don't agree with your comment about them making choices because I really do feel this is an utter destructive compulsion that once unleashed is unstoppable due to the parts of the brain affected   

BUT don't for any reason feel I am judging you, I am not, I am debating with you, I am not dismissing your views I learn from everyones views and I have so much to learn

Take care and I wish you wellxx


« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:58:56 AM by 1trouble »
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Online Mortesbride

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2019, 11:09:05 AM »
This is probably the first thread I have skimmed/skipped most of the comments on just to post.

Mostly because I don't want to waste my time reading all the drivel of MLCers about the OW/OM they are still choosing to be with. ::)

But I also appreciate someone may really need this answer so here goes my experience.

Directly after BD (like the week of) I asked him if he loved her...he sounded like he was going to be sick and said ''Love is an awfully strong word''. That was the last direct question I ever asked about her.

Since then he has come out with stuff in conversations, usually when he is spilling his guts to me...but always refers to her in a sort of third party way. He will just randomly say things like ''People are crazy'', or ''people are being difficult'', or ''he doesn't know anyone else who knows how to cook'' (besides me).

''It is exhausting entertaining them''.....or ''No one else get's my sense of humour. My jokes don't always go down well''.

I know in a way he is referring to her, yet he makes it seem as if he could be talking about anyone. He has never once said ''her'', ''my girlfriend'', ''OW name''...nothing.

She is ''they'', ''people'', ''friends''.

He has not posted anything on SM, nor has she interestingly enough. Pictures are hidden before the kids come for a visit, and he removes the key chain picture off her car key every time before he comes in my house.

I am still called ''Dearest'', ''Sweet heart'', ''The wife'', and ''Mommy''...... to my face anyway.  ::)

He has never as of yet called me by my name which I find super strange. Always pet names.

So I would say for the most part she is never mentioned. She is the dirty secret still hiding in his closet....yet sometimes complained about in the third person.
You know this is MLC when you have played emotional hot potato with a pair of crotch-less tights.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: Negative MLCer comments about the OP
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2019, 11:33:49 AM »
And I remember reading some stories where a MLC'er had said I would have totally disappeared in the fog if it wasn't for the link to home....I want to clarify though in case any newbies are reading this, that I totally believe now, with more experience less is more on the contact front and it took me time to realise that he progressed a lot further and did far more processing when left alone.


Thanks 1T.  I appreciate the discussion and your thoughts.  I also see the reasoning behind your continued contact.  I too have always had contact with my H and would not stop - I just cut down as i came  to realise I was suffering trauma symptoms And needed to lessen my attachment to him to help with that...  But to play devils advocate, if we maintain contact so they can come home, strictly speaking our actions are for their sake.  There’s nothing wrong with that, as our aim is to bring them back  but we should be aware of that and it’s possible negative  effect on us.

Also, regarding therapists and what they  understand, I am where I am because for two years I have had full validation of my circumstances and my feelings have been contained and affirmed completely by the professionals I have had contact with..  That is the reason - the main and perhaps only reason, I believe, that I am able to look more closely at my situation.  The words and holding I have received have been immensely powerful and curative.  I felt and feel wholly understood and I wish everyone could have that. 

I’m not sure what I wrote but I think I agreed that therapy is only any good if the person wants it.  To me that means being out of the eye of the storm or at least still in the storm but realising that help is needed and being in a position to be contained.  I could not be developed while grieving. All my T’s skills were used helping me to grieve as that was all I was capable of, but I knew I wanted to be contained and held.  That containment while in some form of breakdown is available to a person in mlc if they can see that far.  Change comes later after validation, acceptance  and containment.

That’s part of what can be confusing when writing here.  We are mostly at different stages of healing and development and our needs can differ because of that.  One of my fellow students commented last week that I am finding my anger.

 

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