Author Topic: Discussion An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!  (Read 3050 times)

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Discussion An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« on: July 02, 2019, 10:15:41 PM »
Nah asked a question on the last thread and wanted a yes or no answer from Shocks Sis.  A poster replied:

I believe the intent of the question is to provide justification for LBSes to condemn MLCers for their actions.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 

So an LBS needing to justify condemning the actions of a MLCER is ridiculous to me.  She already has every right to do that without any more Justification than what the MLCER did."

J is paying everyday for the consequences of his actions.  He is currently in the hospital having his second hip replacement at 54, a direct result of some things he did while in his MLC.  The children haven't called or come up to visit him.  But he's not angry or wallowing in self pity about that.  He accepts it as a consequence of his actions.  He's sad.  He's hurt.  But he's happy for any crumbs they toss his way.

I think what J said is just another version of what Shocks Sis is saying much more artfully.  Sis know that what you say has helped others and that your truth may not always be understood or liked by all, but it is your truth and that's something no one can take from you. 

Btw for those of you who don't know J was a very high energy MLCER over 9 + years.  To all you ladies and gentlemen with in home wallowers I don't know how you all manage and much long overdue respect for you all.  I used to think having a Wallower would be easier based on the theory of green grass but I'm sure if I'd have had a Wallower I'd have lost my mind, figuratively naturally, but I can't imagine anything more annoying to me than a Wallower. 

We all have our own truths.  How we manage to accept others right to have a different view is easier when ego is not involved and when we are mature enough to remember not all things are black and white.  Shades of gray can be lovely as well. 

Lp


« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 03:20:04 PM by OldPilot »
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Whyus

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2019, 10:39:22 PM »
I didnt intend on writting on this Thread but These 2 Posts jump right out at me...

I am able to stand and treat my wife with compassion because I know that she didn't choose to go through this crisis, to have an affair. to move in with the om, and to divorce me. I know that my wife never has She has! and never would deliberately hurt me, and I know that my wife still loves me.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 
This sounds more like it! No hiding behind the fog or blaming everything on the fog. Sure its there but they all made choices and knew exactly what they were doing and what Impact it would have on others.
I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. W is actually getting People to accept/Tolerate them.
2 Sons - 19 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Offline Granite

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 12:41:35 AM »
After reading several posts, which to me, displayed an utter lack of compassion and an abundance of anger I was left feeling disheartened as ShockSis words have gifted me a clearer view of my Wife’s crisis.

By serendipity a few moments later I found myself watching the first episode of a tv show, “The Brain with Brian Eagleman”, that helped me understand not only why I viewed certain posts and concepts one way, while others viewed them differently, but how my Wife in crisis might view things so differently now than before.  It echos Lawprofessor’s post, but with a bit of science which made it more real for me.  The episode also includes information on the perception of time which I found fascinating.

For those that don’t agree with another persons thoughts, feelings or words and I am guilty of that too, I now understand it is not my place to dismiss them, nor devalue them.  It is their reality and to do demean it is insulting to both of us.

ShockSis,
   You hear people say, “It wasn’t easy, but if I helped one person it was worth it”.  Well I hope you now know it was worth it, because I can’t explain exactly how, but your words and presence helped me to fully understand what is going on with my Wife and how best to handle this time for myself and as well as her.

Offline Keep believing

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 01:31:22 AM »
I have to disagree with the statement , addiction and mlc are totally different. I too am a recovering alcoholic.  Here is  my thought. Did i choose to drink?  yes to some point.
Did i know it was wrong ? yes. Was  i hurting others ? yes.
Did i justify ? yes. Did it make me feel good when i drank?  yes. Did i care what others said ? . no  Would i hang out with those people who judged me and said i had a problem ?  no  I ran from people who judged me an alcoholic.
Did i hit a bottom ? yes  emotionally.  I hated myself , my life.
Did i have regrets when recovering ? yes  Was I shameful  ? yes
When I think about the past (which I hate to think about) does it repulse me ? yes
What made me want to quit and change?   I was losing my h.

Very Very similar

Oh and by the way , if i didnt have the drink (addiction) I would get very angry.

Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2019, 09:48:19 AM »
I didnt intend on writting on this Thread but These 2 Posts jump right out at me...

I am able to stand and treat my wife with compassion because I know that she didn't choose to go through this crisis, to have an affair. to move in with the om, and to divorce me. I know that my wife never has She has! and never would deliberately hurt me, and I know that my wife still loves me.

I asked my J his thoughts.  "Justification?  No LBS needs a justification to condemn a MLCER for their words and actions.  What I did and said deserves and deserved to be condemned.  I was responsible for each and everything I did.  I made choices.  OK yes, I had a fog, and maybe don't remember some of my choices.  But that's not a justification.  Yes, I was manic but that's not a justification. I blew up my life, my family's lives, my career, my home, and hurt many people.  To try to justify that with my being in a fog is to still try to duck responsibility.  I'm not about to go back and wallow like a child trying to spread blame so I might have a bit less.  That would mean I learned nothing from all this and I certainly don't agree or even need someone to put lipstick on the pig I was.  Everyday I live with the consequences of my actions which I take full responsibility for.  Geez I didn't just fall off a bar stool and accidentally have sex with another woman.  I made choices.  I knew those choices would hurt others but I didn't stop long enough to care.  And the times I thought about it hurting others, well I have to say I found ways to justify my decision to do what I wanted.  I told myself and others ex was OK with it, the kids would be fine, kids are resilient, ex hated me, I got along better and had more in common with young girls, anything to justify.  But if it was right I wouldn't have felt the need to justify.  It would have been self-evident.  I didn't really start to get better until I gave up trying to justify and spread guilt and stood up and carried my own baggage. 
This sounds more like it! No hiding behind the fog or blaming everything on the fog. Sure its there but they all made choices and knew exactly what they were doing and what Impact it would have on others.
I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Whyus, I see both sides. Maybe if the day comes, agreeing with MBIB will be a path towards forgiveness and healing. For now, agreeing with you makes the most sense to me as she's (my ex) shown no sign of demonstrating remorse or culpability.

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2019, 04:14:21 PM »
If I may Shock and sis, I just wanted to say on the topic of choice.

It's very complicated.  I don't believe anyone in their right mind would choose to live in a crisis.  No sane person I know.

So no they had no choice but once they are in the crisis they do have a choice, their not mentally ill, but here's where it gets tricky, the problem is in their fogged up brain they are not making rational choices.  They are making crazy choices.

Unless they are deemed certifiable insane, they have to accept responsibility for their choices just like anyone else does for their choices, but in their fogged up brain it's hard to make rational choices when they don't think rational.

There are consequences for making crazy choices, I'm afraid.

I feel the same way MB does.  My H did not choose to go into a crisis, he would never have purposely hurt me, I believe he still loves me, and he most certainly would not divorce me...but the truth is he did.

You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

Ok, back to you SS.   :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2019, 06:22:02 PM »
Thunder:
Quote
You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

And what if they just can't?

What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?

Do we deny ourselves the possibility of a possible lovely relationship because they cannot find the words to tell us they are sorry?

Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say.

Heartsblessing used to say that as long as there is love there is  hope.

The words "free pass" do not resonate well with me because I am one that really believes they have no clue what they have done to us.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2019, 07:15:04 PM »
And what if they just can't?
What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?


Xyzcf, I truly don't know the answer to that.
That's why I say I think this is complicated.

I guess what is a " lovely relationship" with them, if they can't show remorse or can't remember the pain they have caused us.

To me personally, a lovely relationship means the presence of love in the relationship allows us to feel protected and safe as if the other person is a safe harbor for us.  With them, we feel a sense of security and stability.
At least that is how I see a lovely relationship.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2019, 10:57:02 PM »
Thunder:
Quote
You just can't give them a free pass.  They need to eventually see what they have done and have remorse enough to pay the price for what they did.  Show that remorse by trying to mend the relationship they destroyed.

And what if they just can't?

Can't what? 

Can't say I'm sorry?  2 words.  I'm quite certain 2 words isn't much to want or even need to hear.


For some LBS's that would be enough. 
For others those 2 words wouldn't be near enough. It's individual to the person at this point.

Can't feel remorse?
Then there's a much bigger personality disorder.

Can't show remorse?
Again, either not done with the crisis or a much bigger personality disorder.

Can't face what they've done?  Then the likelihood is that:

1 they wouldn't come back in the first place
2 And even if they somehow decided to come back, they aren't strong enough to be a partner in a relationship which precludes the chance of a possibly lovely relationship I'd think.  It would be more of a parent child relationship not an adult reconciliation
.

What if they were so messed up that they do not even remember what they did?

I'm yet to hear of a single MLCER who doesn't remember any of what they did who has reached the end stages since that's exactly what the end stages are about in part. Even assuming total amnesia one can still apologize for having wronged another when told of the wrong.

A simplistic example would be a person becomes drunk.  They vomit in a friend's car.  While the person may not remember vomiting, it would be common courtesy to apologize when he becomes aware of the incident and attempt to right the wrong.  Should the MLCer be held to common courtesy?  Many, perhaps most, would say yes.


Do we deny ourselves the possibility of a possible lovely relationship because they cannot find the words to tell us they are sorry?

Who said anything about denying ourselves anything? And who said we are only speaking of words?  But neither is it required that the LBS has to settle for less than what they want or deserve simply because the MLCER decides to return home.  If what's offered isn't enough than it just isn't and that's not a foundation for a lovely relationship.

-Inability to find the right words to tell us they are sorry is different story.  For some the possibility of a lovely relationship is nonexistent if the other person is not able to communicate remorse.  Notice I said communicate.  We've watched for months and years Barbiedoll's frustration, hurt, and anger over her husband's inability to communicate in a manner she needs. He's said he's sorry. But would she say hers is a lovely relationship?  I don't know that answer.

Different people have different needs and needs change with time and circumstance.  No one answer sets the minimum or the norm. 

But again this discussion isn't framed from the perspective of only what the MLCER can do or feels comfortable doing but what the lbs needs.  Our needs matter.  And more than that it's about where the level of accountability lies and how that impacts our actions and decisions.

Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say.

Words and communication are part of actions.  I don't see a lovely relationship being able to happen or even possible without the ability to communicate and the desire of both parties to communicate in a way both understand. 

Simplistically I could write this whole post in Russian or in Farsi or Tajiki Farsi.  But what would be the point if the target audience could not understand


Heartsblessing used to say that as long as there is love there is  hope.

Quite true.  She also said a MLCER who makes the decision to return home will be willing to go to great lengths to return home because he will have made that difficult decision. 

However, none of this discussion is about hope or love.  It's about what the LBS feels about responsibility and accountability in relation to the MLCER.  Holding views on accountability does not mean one can't gave hope or no longer loves the MLCER. 

Are you suggesting that accountability and responsibility mean a person doesn't love another?

I'd suggest it's just the opposite.  Parents hold their children accountable and responsible for the most part.  Friends hold friends accountable and responsible.  If my friend were to hurt me, I still love him or her but I'd want an apology and validation that my feelings matter.

The words "free pass" do not resonate well with me because I am one that really believes they have no clue what they have done to us.

Having no clue what they've done to us is different than having no clue what they did, actions and behaviours.  It is not that far a stretch for a MLCer in the end stages to begin with the assumption they hurt us and I'm yet to see a single genuine return of a MLCER who doesn't understand that he hurt his spouse in some way.  His understanding may lack specific details, or awareness of depth but he is well aware his actions caused pain. That's a root cause of guilt and depression they face in later stages.


if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2019, 11:27:21 PM »
I agree with LP.
Some of our debate about MLCers responsibility may be bc (as Acorn's pink tutu themed recent posts talk about with a fine BS excuses checklist lol) we are hunting for a way to excuse the unacceptable bc we want to be able to accept them back in our lives if that happens. And much of what they do is horrific and unacceptable in a decent normal relationship.

Explain and excuse are different imho.
If someone hurts me and is unwilling or unable to show that they feel bad about it, or to acknowledge the damage, then put simply they will probably do it again bc my feelings don't matter enough to them. I don't know how to even have a decent friendship with someone like that let alone a 'lovely' relationship.
It isn't about love, it's about respect to me. And normal healthy adult behaviour.

I remember being completely gobsmacked by my h's lack of reaction when I got death threats. It just wasn't normal...but it was how he reacted. Do I know what he felt or why he reacted that way? No I don't. But if a man can spend two decades of his life with someone and show no concern at all about them being threatened or killed, can live with it well enough to be ok or can justify it? Then that is a very disordered kind of human being....not my job to excuse or justify it. And the fact that even years later he has never acknowledged it or the impact of it in any way? Says much the same. If he can live with it comfortably for the next few decades or deny the simple facts? Again, much the same. Not a healthy human. Can I understand why it would be horrific to look at and take responsibility for? Yes I can...tbh it took a lot of courage and grit for me to accept as real...but if my xh ever wants to be a healthy human again, he will need to strip off his own pink tutus as Acorn would say and accept the unacceotable reality too. And his actions and reactions bc no one else is responsible for that but him.

I suspect there may be a difference between the crisis and post crisis version. And ShockSis's posts show that her perspective is rather different from the MLC version who didn't care when her h called her at 2am needing help bc he had been beaten up and was injured. But she still did what she did then and her h felt what he felt then. My xh saying sorry won't change the fact that I slept in my clothes for months, actually barely slept at all, bc I was afraid of the house being set on fire in the night.

And it isn't about grovelling...just someone who can say I did this, it hurt people and that matters enough to me to accept that I did and try to make amends if I can. A healthy MLCer needs to get to that point or they just continue frankly to be a toxic sub-standard adult human. A healthy LBS needs to be able to do something similar...to accept the reality of things without excusing what is unacceptable to them or destructive either in others behaviour or their own.

At a basic level, I honestly believe that you can't heal what you don't let yourself feel...and you can't feel it honestly without owning the bits that belong to you. Which means taking the pink tutu off and looking at the unadorned realities. As true for the LBS as the MLCer.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 12:18:59 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Nerissa

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2019, 06:35:35 AM »
Such interesting posts.  I spent so very long, twisting myself up ,  making excuses for my H.  He has recently apologised in tears and seems in a mess and for probably the first time I haven’t tried to ‘help’. 

Although it’s taken time, once the grief subsided, my real work was to see what my own beliefs and conditioning  were are that allowed me to live with and want someone who can treat me this way and does not want to be with me.  This is  huge. Underneath the wish for a whole
Family and history and economic constraints there is a gap in my psyche that has been willing to be treated with disrespect and contempt and to accept it.  I can’t blame my parents as although supportive of my wish to forgive the affair, when his behaviour continued they were horrified although they held their counsel.

Now I actually believe the crisis situation is more complicated than simply falling out of love, but whatever, the facts are, at the time he was prepared to behave in a disordered way towards me and damage his daughters along with me.  And that damage was apparent.   As others have pointed out, he was, and unless he changes quite a bit, still is incapable of a reciprocal, emotionally mature  adult relationship with me, and quite possibly with anyone.  His earning capacity  or outward  success mask that, but it’s an emotional truth.

 I was part of that relationship and wanted to stay in it.  .  My T described it simply by saying it was symbiotic - that we both looked after each other in ways that we felt we needed to care/be cared for,  but not in a properly mature, evolved way.  To have even a friendship worthy of the name, both parties have to rid themselves of that symbiosis, identify the gaps in our development that need plugging, and grow up emotionally.

If one person does evolve and the other doesn’t, there can’t be an equal relationship.  Mine had been parent/child for some time - me the emotional parent and he the providing parent.  We were a good team, but in reality we needed to develop the undeveloped parts of ourselves instead of relying on the other to do that bit for us.  Coming back is neither here nor there in the light of this reality.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 06:49:13 AM by Nerissa »

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2019, 06:40:59 AM »
From Bbhelp's thread https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10463.msg731458#msg731458

Quote
It will be unfair, then it will be unfair, followed by being unfair...and finally it will end up being unfair.  If you are keeping score...expecting a Mea Culpa worthy of a Cheesy Lifetime Movie...then think again.  It is thankless and...did I mention unfair?  There are so many that seem to expect this huge act of contrition...the taking ownership of what they did that is a signal of worthiness.  What I Found...was that words never told me anything.  Actions did.  My wife didn't throw herself at the mercy of the BB Court.  She has still never had her OMG...Here is all I did wrong & why.  I found that in time that wasn't what I needed. 

This is from Bbhelp's recent thread. I am not the only one that feels that we MUST expect them to apologize and say they are "sorry" otherwise we cannot have a "lovely" relationship with them.

I did say in my post "Perhaps their actions are more important than any words they might say."

LP, I don't need a lecture from you. Taking each of my comments and expressing why you think I am wrong is not necessary. I have as much knowledge as anyone else here about  MLC, and each of our situations are vastly different.

I also come from a Christian belief, trying to live my life as Christ has asked, to love one another, to love one's enemies and to forgive.

Writing one's opinion is fine, disagreeing with another member's opinion because you think they are wrong and you know better isn't.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 06:44:16 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2019, 08:24:52 AM »
XYZCF, you make it impossible to have a discussion by personalizing and reacting rather than reading what's written.  I am not lecturing you and absolutely no where did I say you were wrong.  Once again you reacted to a post instead of reading the words actually there and then got defensive.  But this time I'm not participating in a big thread war with you where you turn around and claim the mantle of victimhood. 

I clearly said the issue of accountability depends on the LBS individually and where they are at at the time.  That this can change when the LBS is in a different place obviously.

XYZCF as I've discussed with you before I see great value in our contrasting positions because it gives people different perspectives to consider where they fall on the continuem.  I also told you that in my view is hope people take a bit from each of us when finding their personal sweet spot.  That view clearly suggests I find value in your level of knowledge but you fail to see that.

No place did I say I know better.  That's your incorrect interpretation, reacting instead of reading and seeing it's just another perspective.

Yes, BB said he got no mea culpa.  Just as I said it depends on the lbs and what they need at the time.  Bb was or is fine with no verbal mea culpa.  For others it's different as I wrote several times and that's just as valid a position. And that doesn't mean bb would say his lovely wife is not responsible for her actions in the manner we were discussing.

My J gave a huge mea culpa.  It's what was needed for him and for his loved ones to heal.  He was willing to do whatever necessary to help them heal.  His choice, his personality, his step to making amends.

As well related to BB's post, no where did I say actions were not important.  I said communication is a part action and some people need/want both parts.  That reflects personal choice, personality, and where they are at the time.  That's just as valid a need/want as is your not needing those things.  It's part of an exercise in growth to be able to express ones needs.

Loving one another and forgiveness under Christian tenets does not preclude ownership of one's wrongs.  That's part of the Catholics practice of confession.  Aside from that, I don't care a bit as to ones religious affiliation or nonreligious affiliation but it would be inaccurate to suggest forgiveness is alone a Christian tenet.  Living in the Middle East and Egypt and Russia and worshiping in those places gave me a clear view that the Muslim faith as well preaches forgiveness for example as does the Jewish faith and all 3 faiths value ownership and making amends.  As I'm sure other faiths do that I'm less familiar with

As to your last comment, that's a perfect example of lecturing.  You are judging my motives in responding to your comments.  And judging those motives incorrectly.  If Ive violated a forum rule Old Pilot and or RCR know how to contact me. 

Now I think it's best if we simply agree to disagree if we can't discuss thoughts without becoming defensive and reactionary.

Lp




if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2019, 09:25:18 AM »
There's one thing that never seems to change on this forum and I, personally, am sick of it.

Hi Shock Sis - thank you for the wealth of information you have been providing from your experience.

Whenever someone posts on this forum who self-identifies as a person who has been through a crisis, those threads are always very popular, loaded with questions from LBses who are so grateful for an insight into the MLC mind. And those insights always seem to reveal, as Sis has, someone who was lost and confused and felt compelled to do the things they did and later find it difficult to comprehend why they did those things.

Yet, whenever an interesting thread starts about MLC it quickly seems to turn into this:

I hope that if my XW ever Wakes up then she will throw up in her own mouth and then spit it onto OM whilst he sleeps. After that I wish her a peaceful life as she is the mother (or big sister) of my Kids afterall. Protecting our spouces and blaming everything on the fog is just not right! They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

You seem to want to learn what it's like to go through this crisis. Perhaps you might hear from more people who have experienced this crisis if you would start listening and stop being so judgmental. Why do you think anyone who has experienced this crisis would want to post about it on this forum when so many of you make us feel like the enemy?

I know I'm wasting my time writing this because there is so much anger and bitterness on this forum that I don't expect it to ever change so I will leave you with one final thought.

I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.

Sorry, sometimes my angry part takes over and I've quit trying to control him. I've found that sometimes it's enlightening to let him say his piece. And, for the record, I am not nor have I ever been an MLCer. I am a person. A fellow human being. Somebody who didn't ask to be neglected and abused when I was a child. Somebody who had a wonderful life and a wonderful marriage until nine years ago when I began struggling with depression while going through a severe identity crisis not long after my father died. Somebody whose wife had a similar childhood yet was a wonderful and loving wife until she started a journey similar to mine 5 years and 5 days ago, not long after her father died. Somebody who has been in therapy for the past 4 years for major depressive disorder and has been diagnosed with disorganized childhood attachment, abandonment disorder, PTSD, and a dissociative disorder, either DID or OSDD subtype 1b. Somebody who isn't sure how he got here and would love to have his life back. Somebody who values those who support him and is deeply hurt by those who don't. Somebody who goes to bed every night praying that he won't wake up in the morning.

One more final thought. Count your blessings. If you still want to blame somebody, blame the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might blame the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might blame the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged the person or people who damaged your spouse. Or perhaps you might forget about blaming and try to find some understanding and compassion.


Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2019, 10:26:15 AM »
Brain, I'm absolutely on your side.. I had my MLT, pulled out of it and started job searching, amongst other positive things and trying to climb out of it. W's mother just died and she started her MLC and me coming out of my MLT only proved to her everyone was leaving her behind. Anyway, you know my story.. and I honestly think most of W's life has been spent in some sort of fog or semi dissociative / narcissistic / sociopathic state. 

There are also people in the post MLC crisis threads that say they were totally aware of their actions and they justified them, rationalized, bargained and other other sorts of jedi minds tricks to make them palatable. However, I also know the fog and I've been in and out of it my whole life for various stretches of time and even after BD. If I had to describe it, I'd say it's a lot like being drunk or high. You're watching yourself do things, with little regard for the consequences, from about 10 feet outside and to the back. It's like your body has moved so fast, it's moved forward in time and you're trying to catch up. I had awareness, but not what we'd consider conscious control and trust me, I'd pay for it later, depressed, sobbing and wondering what the hell was wrong with me.

Anyway.. I do agree that the anger, frustration and even at times hatred only serves to hold the individual back and from truly moving on.
Anyway, moving on.. They say the opposite of love is indifference, not hate.. if you're that riled up, they're still controlling you. Letting go of that connection is imperative to grow and truly move on.

Part of that letting go I feel, is believing in a functional sense, that until you see remorse and corrective actions, you do have to believe that the MLCer is doing what they want to. I feel (and you or anyone reading this may or may not agree) that all of the standing actions only serve to keep us tied to the MLCer and can also delay our own growth.

For my wife, I assume she's where she wants to be and shes doing what she wants to. No maybe deep down she doesn't like it and wishes she could change things, but she's also the one not doing it. Hopes, wished and good thoughts aren't going to make her, until she wants to. While they may not be happy, I think may MLCers choose inaction, because it's easier. Or they choose to let the chips fall where they may and just deal with it.

I think that's a terrible way to live myself. Hence, brain, you and I have righted our ships and our spouses, as of this post, haven't. The LBS can still love, ,hope and stand and also accept that their spouses are right where they want to be, doing what they want to. Inaction is also a choice too. I for one don't want to delay my personal growth and progress by waiting for a pot to boil.

But should it happen that she wakes up and moves on, you can be absolutely sure I'm going to remember both of our abusive pasts, how I love my W for who she is and not what she is or was, all of that fog stuff and it's going to make forgiving, forgetting and moving on much easier. 

There's room for both points of view, they're kind of checks and balances for one another, but the spewing of hate and anger isn't good for the person, or the forum. That I also agree with you on.

And it's not just Whyus.. lol. I just tend to turn more of a blind eye to it I guess because I'm used to hardscrabble opinions.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:37:45 AM by gman242 »

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2019, 10:27:31 AM »
Blame:responsibility for a fault or wrong.. or as a verb: assign responsibility for a fault or wrong.

Why does this word have such a negative connotation when all it does is describe an actual situation? Did person x do thing y? If the answer  is yes, then responsibility is assigned. Own it, deal with it, move forward.  And even if you can't own it, deal with it, move forward, the responsibility doesn't change.

It sounds to me, MBIB, that it isn't the assigning of responsibility that is bothersome to you, but the fact that anyone is angry or upset about it. People get to be upset when someone lies, cheats or otherwise harms them. Just like you get to be angry or upset because you appear to think blame is a bad thing, and not just responsibility for a fault or wrong. We get to have those feelings and own them as ours. But i don't think we can expect that everyone is going to feel exactly like another does  because they have their own life experiences to color their world.

When a person owns their wrong, and tries to make amends, sometimes the responses won't be positive.  That is also part of taking responsibility, imo. Owning that the hurt caused may not be forgiven and that any amends made may not be enough for everyone. It's another opportunity to grow,  accepting whatever responses as  valid, and still doing the responsible thing.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 10:41:38 AM by OffRoad »
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Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2019, 10:40:21 AM »
I haven't been feeling 100% objective lately but OffRoad, you're right.. I think MBIB is just talking about the people that chime in "dude wake up! f that b!tc#!" to the same things, all the time. It's counterproductive and not within the spirit of the forum, I think is all he's saying. I don't disagree..

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2019, 11:08:25 AM »
I haven't been feeling 100% objective lately but OffRoad, you're right.. I think MBIB is just talking about the people that chime in "dude wake up! f that b!tc#!" to the same things, all the time. It's counterproductive and not within the spirit of the forum, I think is all he's saying. I don't disagree..
Fair point about anyone who tells someone what to do. Suggesting what to do, ok.

Some of the posters here want to hear about how Shock's sis felt while in mlc and coming out of it , etc. Some want to know how she plans on making amends (like posting here is helping the rest of us and that is a way of making amends that stretches beyond her original scope and for which I am truly grateful). My friend who is coming out of MLT/MLC is MORTIFIED by some of what she has done and she was nowhere on the scale of some of the MLCers here. Since the person she most hurt was herself, she is now trying to make amends to herself.

Many of us joke about the Karma bus, but in truth I think what many want to know is that when the mlcer wakes up, do they feel true remorse? Will they take the responsibility for what they have done, or try to sweep it under the carpet? Because if you do something inappropriate  and no one holds you accountable and you feel no remorse, what's to keep you from doing it again? In fact, why wouldn't you do it again?  There is this belief that if the mlcer feels bad enough for what they did, they won't do it again. And that isn't how it works at all. It's not how bad the mlcer feels, it's how much they want to right their wrongs in whatever way they can. At least that is how I see it.
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2019, 11:33:28 AM »
Absolutely agree Offroad. And I had my own MLC/MLT and am accountable for my actions within it. We can play the "blame game" forever. My FOO damaged me. My xH's FOO damaged him, which likely means their FOO damaged them, and so on, and so on (cue the 1970s Prell shampoo ad  ;D). At some point, I had to take responsibility to stopping the bleeding that I can control (note: not my xH). And I also believe he is a chemically imbalanced person, as am I, which also plays into this. Acknowledging I have issues that I must manage with diet, exercise, meditation and mindset work, my spiritual practice, and if the time comes, pharma, is my responsibility. It doesn't give me a pass to hurt people, financially, emotionally, or physically. Though I am no longer a stander, as I know realistically I could never have the healthy and whole relationship with him again that I wanted (forgiveness for the past or not), it would still be completely on him if he wishes to have a productive life to acknowledge his issues and take the steps he needs to take, every day. As we all do. But he's satisfied with the life he has, so I accept that.

I think the people here are some of the most compassionate I've ever known. I've known truly angry and vindictive people, and they are nothing like this, which I classify as the very useful anger stage of grief. No one would be here if they didn't love their spouse and want to know what happened to them and how to get passed it (either alone or reunited). I think that anger comes to all of us too, whether we direct it at the MLCer, the FOO, or sometimes even the safe place of each other the way the kids involved in this tend to do toward the LBS.

We sometimes need to remind ourselves not to take someone else's path to healing personally. No one is threatening anyone else's stand. If it's that wobbly, where they can bring up intense emotions with so little, it's worthy to be explored why that is, IMO. I went through many of those days myself, especially early on here when people would say to me that I'll be fine no matter what ("NO MATTER WHAT?! No, he'll be back and that's the only possible way!"). Hackles totally up. But y'all were right. ;) The journey to look into those feelings was one that grew me. And I think that's why this happened. We all find our why. The discussion, and respect we give each other, helps.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:35:14 AM by Ready2Transform »
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline serenity

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2019, 11:40:57 AM »
MB, gman and offroad,

Well said and some excellent points made.

It’s a brave person who’s an ex MLCer that comes here to post and try and help and answer the many questions that we, the LBS’ have

Sadly there are those who will attack and appear angry and as has already happened - most X MLCers don’t bother to come back here because of some of the hostility from certain posters!

Let’s hope that shocks sis stays!

X

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2019, 11:44:38 AM »
Lots of wise words here.
I think many of us in our bones carry a residue of shock and incomprehension that people can act this way often for years and show no real remorse. Not just our spouses, but actually just anyone. Probably bc most of us simply can't imagine doing what some of these folks do. Or not feeling horrified and remorseful if we did.
And I'm not sure that some of that shock ever entirely goes away so we do our best to find a way to accept and live with it. Hence the discussions about responsibility, blame and intention. And why ShockSis's posts might at least help us to understand a tiny bit.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

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Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2019, 11:51:03 AM »
It's not how bad the mlcer feels, it's how much they want to right their wrongs in whatever way they can. At least that is how I see it.

This.

When a person owns their wrong, and tries to make amends, sometimes the responses won't be positive.  That is also part of taking responsibility, imo. Owning that the hurt caused may not be forgiven and that any amends made may not be enough for everyone.

And this.

People get to be upset when someone lies, cheats or otherwise harms them.

They do. And they have such right.


I had a MLC. Mild and short compared with many, if not most of our MLCers. I did not destroyed a marriage or cheated on my spouse. I did not deal with BD well and MLC come from BD.

My crisis in no way compares to Mr J's one. He is one of the worst MLCers I have ever heard of, be it on HS or real life. LP's husband was another pretty bad one and, sadly, a few more here have that type of MLCer.

I don't see the problem with asigning blame. Like OffRoad said "Blame:responsibility for a fault or wrong.. or as a verb: assign responsibility for a fault or wrong."

Do you want to know what, for a very long time, was my biggest regret? That my MLC made me react with emotions rather than with logic = I didn't divorce Mr J as soon as OW1 was made public. That mistake of mine cost me dearly in every way. But the mistake is mine, not Mr J's, not anyone else's.

We need to have in mind that just like each LBS is different, so is each MLCer. I, Ready2, OffRoad's friend, my single real life friend who had a MLC, my wallower cousin and all those MLCers who never destroyed a marriage and/or had an alienator do not have the same issues to deal with that those who did it. Each one of the ones who didn't do those things and each one of those who did them is different. So is their LBS in existing. Each situation is also different.


It’s a brave person who’s an ex MLCer that comes here to post and try and help and answer the many questions that we, the LBS’ have

Indeed, but may I suggest that HS members who did not had a MLC may also want to try to learn something from HS members who had a MLC? Several of us have been here for years. A few have made their threads open to questions and reported many details of their own MLC.

It is not like we have never had a former MLCer, HS member or not, on HS.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Mrs.Smiling

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2019, 12:09:37 PM »
I would also like to say, I had my transition at 38. It lasted 5 years. I never speak of it due to it being mild in comparison to my exh. Exh's are unfortunately being a chaotic kid, abused, neglected and then triggered by his dads early passing and fell deeper when the closest person to him my sister passed at an early age as well...
Just love one another... be the change.
Listen with an open heart..we are all here for one reason or another when it comes to dealing with MLC.
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Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2019, 12:39:05 PM »
They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

I'm sorry about stirring things up but I think this is the attitude the bothers me. It's not about blame or responsibility. It's about intent. I haven't heard of anyone who has gone through this crisis who has tried to deny responsibility for their actions. Maybe during the crisis, but not after. But I also haven't heard from anyone who has gone through this crisis who later claimed that they wanted to or that they were able to control what happened or that they were happy that they did the things they did.

This statement about knowing EXACTLY what they did bothers me for two reasons.

1. Sometimes it simply isn't true. Sometimes a part of a fractured personality will do something that the other parts don't know about.

2. Sometimes, even though it may be true, that doesn't mean that it was possible for the person to do anything other than what they did. Like Gman wrote, it's like watching yourself do things but not being able to change what is happening.

This is why it's called the fog. Things sometimes happen that you're not even aware of and things sometimes happen that you're aware of but unable to do differently. Stating that they know EXACTLY what they're doing implies, to me anyway, that they could do something else. If that were true then they wouldn't be going through a crisis and this wouldn't be the correct site for discussing their behavior. You would be better off some place like the Chump Lady's site.

I'd still like to hear about some of the positive things that came from Sis's crisis.

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2019, 12:54:29 PM »
I would also like to say, I had my transition at 38. It lasted 5 years. I never speak of it due to it being mild in comparison to my exh.

Thank you for saying it, Mrs Smiling. I thing a few of us don't talk much of our MLC or bumpy MLC because we see it as mild compared to our MLCer's one. Maybe we should talk more about it, so that all types and flavours of MLC/bumpy MLT are represented.


And the attitude that bothers me is thinking MLCers do not know what they are doing. Former MLCers say they knew what they were doing. Should we not believe them, including those that are HS members?

How come someone does not know they are having an affair, that it is wrong and hurtful? Mr J said as much to OW1. He knew it was wrong, he knew he was in the wrong and that it was going to hurt me.

RCR has it clear in the articles, it didn't just happen, slot A did not got inserted into slow B just because, two people had to got together for it. RCR uses the slot thing and other things I am using a short version of her article.

Sometimes, and for some MLCers, it may not be true, but that is sometimes. Not always, and certainly not for all MLCers.

It is not possible to end an affair? Especially before it gets physical or rigth after it gets physical? Look, I had my own MLC. I was single, Mr J had left. I could had have a tons of men, it was easy, I was always going out and about.  I didn't. I said not to several. It is possible, even if one is having a MLC.

Brain, you are being unkind to your fellow LBS, including to those of us who had a MLC. I dare say LBS who had a MLC know how it is. You cannot speak for all MLCers. You cannot speak for all LBS. You cannot want all LBS to agree with you and only having your view to be valid. 

Also, your MLCer is not like mine. She is not like the MLCers of several of us. You can speak for yourself and your MLCer, not for all our MLCers or for how a fellow LBS should, or should not feel.

---

RCR article I mentioned above: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_excuses.html

"
Excuses
Is your MLCer making excuses for his infidelity? Are you buying them? Some excuses are meant as lies, some as justifications and some as dismissals. He may or may not have insight into the reasons for his behavior and how it has brought you pain. Until he gains insight, he is not ready to begin the rebirth and repair phase of his midlife journey. Accept the process and learn to laugh--his excuses may be so lame they are funny.

It just happened.
It just happened? How does sex just happen? You tripped on her and just happened to fall in? For Tab A to insert into Slot B, both A and B need to be exposed. Sneezes happen, farts happen, $h!te happens; try again.

I didn't plan it.
You didn't plan it, okay; what exactly did you fail to plan? The first sexual encounter? I think we can rule that out since we've already established that exposure was necessary, but let's move on. Was the second sexual encounter unplanned? Did it also just happen? You mean after tripping into someone's Slot B you didn't learn to take precautions? How do you not plan sex? Where did you meet? Stairways provide space for a fall. But clandestine sexual encounters are more likely to occur at a motel or the house of one of the partners. So how did you get a motel room if it wasn't planned? How did you get to her house or how did she get to ours if it wasn't planned? In the beginning you may not have intended for the relationship to become sexual, but there came a point where it crossed the threshold and that was a choice.


I was drinking.
So what. That has to be one of the stupidest answers to infidelity. Drinking is a choice. The action of drinking alcohol preceded the consequences of becoming drunk and stupid.

I wasn't happy.
Then get counseling; personal unhappiness does not justify adultery. Find help so we can work through predictable hills and valleys in our relationship. Marital dissatisfaction did not cause you to cheat. Infidelity is its own cause.

We were just friends.
Were. And what are you now? Friends with benefits? You allowed your friendship to cross the line; that was your fault and your choice. You are not her friend and she is not your friend; true friends wouldn't treat each other as you have. She has attempted to destroy our marriage, risked your health and your financial stability and you have done the same to her. If that's how you define friendship, how do you define enemies?

It didn't mean anything.
It was just a fling.
It was extramarital sex, adultery, infidelity, cheating. So it meant nothing; you used someone's body to satisfy your loins. She was just a discardable sperm receptacle? If you mistreat one woman, you mistreat all women. Using one woman in such a manner means you can do it to me too.

I didn't mean to hurt you.
So. What does that mean? Does it mean I'm sorry? Then say that. You did hurt. You hurt me, the alienator, our friends and family and our children. But worst of all, you hurt yourself. The thought of hurting me is clearly not a deterrent, so find something that is. How about doing what is appropriate and taking care of your problems rather than avoiding them and making excuses.

I was attracted to her.
So if you see a pretty woman, you must mount her? Down Rover. I find that guy down the street attractive, my colleague 2 desks down has six pack abs and brains to match and the coffee shop guy is cute and flirtatious--I bet I could seduce him. But I haven't and I won't. Finding someone attractive in nature, physically or intellectually does not justify infidelity. There will always be someone other than me who you will find hot; there will be many people you will find hot. That's normal; using it as a reason to break your marriage vows is not.

You were attracted to her, but having an adulterous relationship is not an appropriate reaction to attraction. Now and in the future, what are you going to do when you are attracted to someone else? What are you going to do to avoid reacting inappropriately?
I can't control who I fall in-love with.
Really? Then how is it that you have only fallen in-love with people of one gender? I mean, if you can't control it, odds are that half the people you fall for would male and half would be female. Oh, and you seem to have a type. You only fall in-love with people of your race who fall between a specific age and weight range. Have you fallen in-love with any octogenarians lately? Why is that?

You wouldn't let me grow.
An erection does not count as personal growth.
These excuses lack responsibility. It's called cheating, an affair and adultery and it is always a choice. Many admit to their sins, but still diminish their responsibility with inexcusable excuses. The excuses are not meant as untruths, many MLCers do not understand the roots of how it happened; they do not know how their actions lead to their behavior. Some believe these excuses are indicative that the person is hiding something. That may be true. But they are also convenient answers to toss out when pressured.

An affair requires conscious planning and premeditation, it builds from small, seemingly innocent encounters, to encounters of greater intimacy. People are conscious of present actions, but are often unconscious of the relationship between past, present and future actions. They may not recognize how lunches lead to dinners and how open discussions lead to confiding personal problems. The roots of an affair may be innocent, thus studied alone, the innocent encounters seem meaningless.

This is not meant as a criticism of the well-intending MLCer seeking to reconcile in counseling. But such a person still uses these lame excuses. Learn how this happened. Believing and intending to be faithful are not enough; prevention requires knowledge of the risks and dangers; it requires looking back at behaviors and learning what actions and emotions enabled an affair to take place. A person who is unable to follow responsibility beyond it just happened or I didn't plan it is capable and at risk of not planning it and having it just happen again."
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:17:52 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2019, 01:19:46 PM »
Sooo...

I haven't heard of anyone who has gone through this crisis who has tried to deny responsibility for their actions.

But...

Things sometimes happen that you're not even aware of and things sometimes happen that you're aware of but unable to do differently. Stating that they know EXACTLY what they're doing implies, to me anyway, that they could do something else.

So you haven’t heard of a (recovered) MLCer deny responsibility but here’s a long list of why they’re not responsible?

I don’t understand what’s the big deal of saying, “I was in pain and I made some F’d up choices”

I don’t think it’s far fetched to say I had a MLC of my own when he left.

I was suicidal, I used alcohol, sex, drugs to dull the pain, I had lapses of memory, etc etc., I don’t even want to get into my FOO issues, the list is long and exhausting, and, yes, as many of you remember, I hurt some people. One wanted to talk about it, one didn’t. I let them choose and agreed... it was my own selfish choices that caused the pain. I could baby cry about the reasons, but their pain is due to my choices. And guess what?  If they started to list the reasons why they felt I wasn’t accountable, I would lose any respect I had left for them. I want a man in my life, not a doormat.



« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:21:04 PM by nah »
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BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
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Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2019, 01:32:52 PM »
The posts ABOVE have been split off from shockandawe sis recovered MLC thread as the debate should now continue on it's own thread...

Shockandawe's thread should stick to her and her Sis's story, questions and answers.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:34:19 PM by Songanddance »
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2019, 01:36:20 PM »
Nah, did you read what I wrote? I wrote that it was about intent, not responsibility, yet you're back to the whole responsibility issue.

I remember you writing about your behavior after BD. Your actions were deliberate. You knew what you were doing, you knew your actions would hurt other people, and you deliberately chose to do them anyway. In fact, I recall you writing that you were hoping that hurting your husband would cause him to wake up. Did you even once do something that you didn't want to do but couldn't stop yourself from doing? I wouldn't say what you went through was an MLC. I would say that you were in pain and made some F'ed up choices.

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2019, 01:39:29 PM »
I am quite surprised to see "I" started a new thread?  Oh well perhaps I'm wasn't aware of acting and certainly had no intention of doing so. 🤔🙄
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2019, 01:44:35 PM »
I split the discussion from Shocksis to a new one. A couple of mods felt that the discussion merited a separate thread and not take up space on Shocksis's thread.

I split and merged it but my opening post ended up at the end!!  Still can't fathom some of the mechanics of this board.

So no you didn't start it officially but your post was the first one to be split off and so it claimed you as the thread owner!!

Sorry for confusion  ::) ::) ::)
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2019, 02:09:27 PM »
Song or another mod, could you be so kind to change the thread icons to discussion one? Thank you.


Allow me to be clear, not one decides to have a MLC. Or suffer from depression. However, MLCer who have affairs are either looking for one or open to one.

Mr J calling OW1 and start things from there is intent. He intented to have a relationship with her. He didn't call her just to say hi. They weren't saying hi when they were meeting in hotel bedrooms. To get to those hotel bedrooms both of them took a train that left them a couple hundred KM from home.

It was not a thing of the moment. They didn't bump into each other drunk in a club or bar, felt overwhelming attraction and went for it right there and that was it. He was looking for someone before he left and he found that someone.

He wrote to her he knew what he was doing was wrong, that he had to broke all his values to keep doing what they were doing, and that he knew it would hurt me.

How not of an intent is it? Reading RCR's article I post may share some light on the affair and the excuses MLCers use.

OW1 was the only woman of the several Mr J start to chat with before he left that allowed things to go far. With the others the talks never passed from his djing, music, art and depression. He went so far as to keep chatting for a little while with a young woman who was on 12th grade. Fortunately all they talked about was music and art.

How come they do not intent to divorce the LBS if that is exactly what many of them no only intent, but do? How come they do not intent to try to kill the LBS if that is what some of them try and even scream "I want you dead?"

How come they do not intent to leave the LBS with financial hardships if some of them make sure they do it on purpose?

I think some LBS may have a peculiar view of MLC. Or may be dealing with a mild type of MLCer and be less aware of how things are with the more extreme MLCers.

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2019, 03:02:18 PM »
I will readily admit that my h. is a mild MLCer compared to some we hear of here. I am also very much in love with the man who was formerly my husband.

He has shown absolutely no sign that he wishes to come home and reconcile with me as his wife. We are not very disconnected because he has always been around in some way or other - through the kids or because he "needs" something from me.

As it is not a situation I have to think about, I don't really have a list of what I might expect from him in order to reconcile. I think more of extending forgiveness and asking for forgiveness in case there is some way I have offended him without knowing it. I would be interested in talking about how to build from now on. I don't think I would have to rehash the past... I learnt early on to keep out of harm's way and I have never been a person to beat a dead dog.

I see Barbiedoll's struggle and I am happy to see that finally she is seeing some making of amends... I realize that we are all different and what she needs, what Song and Dance needs, what those who have no wish to reconcile need ARE all different.

I know that my h. is responsible for his actions, however, he needs to recognize that and decide what to do about it, it is not for me to "expect" a specific script from him.

It seems so far away any way :P

And I also had a MLT when I was 39-41 - I questioned everything (job choice, spirituality, relationship with my children, parents and siblings, the quality of my marriage), turned everything over in my mind - I still have the journals and diagrams I scribbled out at the time, I even asked my h. what he thought about the issues I was thinking about - he said it tired him just to think about that kind of thing and that he was quite content the way he was :P I never really questioned my marriage, I thought about ways we could have more romantic moments, how we could get away from the kids for a weekend ;)

Do I need to see remorse? I don't necessarily need to see it - I know it is a very, very uncomfortable feeling from personal experience so I would feel uncomfortable witnessing it. I think all I want to see is a commitment to me and our marriage, what is past, is past. It will be a new marriage anyway.
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"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2019, 03:04:16 PM »
They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

I'm sorry about stirring things up but I think this is the attitude the bothers me. It's not about blame or responsibility. It's about intent. I haven't heard of anyone who has gone through this crisis who has tried to deny responsibility for their actions. Maybe during the crisis, but not after. But I also haven't heard from anyone who has gone through this crisis who later claimed that they wanted to or that they were able to control what happened or that they were happy that they did the things they did.

This statement about knowing EXACTLY what they did bothers me for two reasons.

1. Sometimes it simply isn't true. Sometimes a part of a fractured personality will do something that the other parts don't know about.

2. Sometimes, even though it may be true, that doesn't mean that it was possible for the person to do anything other than what they did. Like Gman wrote, it's like watching yourself do things but not being able to change what is happening.

This is why it's called the fog. Things sometimes happen that you're not even aware of and things sometimes happen that you're aware of but unable to do differently. Stating that they know EXACTLY what they're doing implies, to me anyway, that they could do something else. If that were true then they wouldn't be going through a crisis and this wouldn't be the correct site for discussing their behavior. You would be better off some place like the Chump Lady's site.

I'd still like to hear about some of the positive things that came from Sis's crisis.
I believe I see what you are saying now. I would like to point out if the MLCER has a fractured personality, it isn't just mlc. It's DID  or something of the like. And that is considered to be rare in the population. Could it be that mlcers just don't get diagnosed with DID and magically come out of it without therapy? I would guess also rare, so while not beyond the realm, also not likely for every single mlcer. So for those who come out of MLC who do not have DID, logic says they know exactly what they did and decided to justify it in some way (this could be faulty logic, I'm open to that).

Which leads to point 2, maybe they are aware and cannot stop themselves (I have no frame of reference for that. Even things I did that I would do differently, I knew what I was doing. I may not have realized the consequences of those actions, though), but assuming they are aware and cannot stop themselves, responsibility is still there.

Now, I can be responsible for something and decide not to do anything about it. That's a valid choice, though it would not be a popular one. This does not remove responsibility.

If the sticking point is that "they" (meaning all mlcers) knew exactly what they were doing, I would venture most do/did. A select few might not.  Perhaps we should only speak for our own mlcer and not in generalities. But even then, I would think if you are now divorced or separated or can see that your spouse is in pain, the normal action of a person who loves another is to say "I understand that I have hurt you in some way. I am so sorry. Tell me what I can do to make it up to you." Not "I don't remember. " with no apology or trying to figure out how it could have happened.

My point being,  some have mlcers that might be easy to forgive. Some have mlcers who completey detroyed the lbs life and the lbs has to build back up from scratch.  When someone else speaks in generalities and it isn't my reality, I try to explain that it might be that way for the other poster, but not for everyone. 
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2019, 04:26:03 PM »
I would like to point out if the MLCER has a fractured personality, it isn't just mlc.

This is an assumption. Nobody agrees on what mlc is and it's often mentioned that mlc is not recognized by the medical community so how it is possible to unequivocally state that if a person has a fractured personality it isn't just mlc? Many LBSes comment on how the person in crisis seems to turn into a different person. That is exactly what happens when somebody has a fractured personality, whether it be due to DID or OSDD or even PTSD. And DID and OSDD and PTSD are recognized by the medical community which may be why my therapists roll their eyes a bit whenever I mention MLC.

OffRoad mentions that DID is considered rare in the general population. This is only true if you believe what you read online at websites like webmd. If you talk to practitioners, people who are experts in working with people with dissociative disorders, you'll find out it is far more prevalent than the websites would lead you to believe.

One thing that is true is that the common perception of DID as popularized by movies like Sybil is wrong. Sybil is an extreme and unusual example of DID. Perhaps this is what the websites are referring to when they state that DID is rare.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm going to try to stop annoying people now. But I can't promise that all of my parts will go along with that.  :D

Sorry. Mr. Smartypants wants to add something.

Dr. Spiegel is a well known researcher in the trauma field. Here's what he has to say.

Coming Apart: Trauma and the Fragmentation of the Self
https://www.dana.org/Cerebrum/2008/Coming_Apart__Trauma_and_the_Fragmentation_of_the_Self/

And here's a guide for therapists working with patients with DID that includes this quote.

Quote
According to Richard Kluft, a leading expert in the field, only 6 per cent of people with DID present their ‘multiple’ or ‘dissociated’ identities publicly and obviously. Elizabeth Howell describes DID as ‘a disorder of hiddenness’, as the vast majority of people with DID, often motivated by shame, will attempt to conceal their symptoms and way of being. This in part explains why, despite dissociative identity disorder being so prevalent, few people are properly aware of it. In fact, many people with DID are high-functioning members of society with good careers before some crisis or build-up of stressors leads to a sudden and catastrophic ‘breakdown’.

A BRIEF GUIDE TO WORKING WITH DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER
https://information.pods-online.org.uk/a-brief-guide-to-working-with-dissociative-identity-disorder/

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2019, 05:50:01 PM »
Thank you for sharing your MLT, Mitz. I have long throw away all my journals from before and after BD including my MLC ones.

As I have said in a post somewhere, I liked the boldness my MLC gave me. I was always a bit bold, but it was a new bold. And it had great professional and personal results.

It is gone. It seems it was something that only MLC high is able to provide. Would love to have some of that super boldness back.


So for those who come out of MLC who do not have DID, logic says they know exactly what they did and decided to justify it in some way (this could be faulty logic, I'm open to that).

I would say that an out of MLC, or even Replay MLCer has become enough aware  for no longer try to justify what they did during MLC. While deep in the tunnel/fog MLCers tend to use all sorts of justifications.

When deep in the tunnel all logic is faulty. Logic does not tend to exist in MLC. MLCers tend to run on emotions. Out of whack emotions, but still emotions.

Which leads to point 2, maybe they are aware and cannot stop themselves (I have no frame of reference for that. Even things I did that I would do differently, I knew what I was doing. I may not have realized the consequences of those actions, though), but assuming they are aware and cannot stop themselves, responsibility is still there.

They are aware of the big things. They may not be aware of the tiny things, but the big ones, affair, divorce, etc. they know. And still go for it. Can they stop themselves? Early on, yes. Later on, when very deep in the tunnel? Maybe not. But that is the thing, before they get deep into the tunnel there is a point where things are possible to revert. So, why do they go deep into the tunnel? Maybe different things, I think. It becomes an addiction, or sort of addiction.

Those new activities bring some relief to the depression, a high that masks the darkness. If they start to stop it all become too much. Fog is lift, even if just a bit, there may even be physical pain - I had it and bad when I stop my going out and about, the adrenaline was lowering and until my chemical levels returned to normal it was hell. Not, not a nice part of MLC. Liminality is not nice in any way.

And Liminality tends to be what MLCers try to avoid like the plague. They don't know it is called Liminality, I didn't had a name for it. They just know it is not a nice place. And it really isn't. I stopped the going out and about because I had decided I would stop it. It didn't made Liminality any easy. When one lives in a high coming down is scary.


Liminality is something we don't much about. Be it former MLCer or LBS that are reconnection or reconciling. It is less crazy than Replay, but a very important part of MLC. Without Liminality there is no Re-Birth.


MLC has a basic script, that is how we manage to recognise it and how RCR, HB and others were able to write about it. Within the basic script there are levels and variations, but the main script and process is the same. Of course a High Energy MLCer and a Wallower are different.

We can say MLCers when refering to the MLC basic script/process, but saying things like MLCers were abused is, in my opinion, not right. Not all MLCers were abused. MLC also isn't about FOO issues for every MLCer.

Then there are those like Mr J that may have something else along with MLC. For me J it may be thyroid issues. No one knows if it is so since he refused to be seen by doctors. If he happens to have hyperthyroidism on top of MLC it may help explain his hyperactivity and how a man that needed 8 hours of sleep a night plus frequent naps manages to sleep so little and have so much energy. He may just have MLC and be feeding on his many different MLC activities to keep in going.


Over the years he expressed being tired, exhausted even. He tried to cut down the djing a few times but the black dog on his shoulder would come over and, as he have told me more than once, if he stops he starts to think about all he had done and he cannot bare it/deal with it.

It would be logical to postulate that if Mr J knows that stoping makes him think about all he has done and he knows he cannot deal with it, he knows what he has done. And that dealing with it will be tremendous.

I am not saying he is always aware that if he slows down things will come back to bite him, he is often on auto-pilot, but more than once he mentioned it, so he knew.

He knows enough to have told me a couple of times the affair was wrong and that it was all on him. Then he went back into his MLC fantasy land. It is all so fantastic in his MCL land.

The hip DJ, the new record label (one more distraction, and, so far, the only one I find merit in, the records they released are good and it could something to keep after MLC), the adoring fans, the free meals in plush restaurants, the public recognition, women and men thinking he is the man, and so, so handsome (never mind he looks like death), such and amazing person (never mind they have no clue about what he had done, do not know the real him and never see him when he is truly down). Who would want to leave such a bubble?


Do I need to see remorse? I need amends. In my case that is money and all my things that still are with Mr J back. I need respect. I need consistent action. I don't mind a I'm sorry, but it has to be heartfelt and followed with action. Only I'm sorry is of no use to me. I need Mr J to fully understand the damages caused by his actions.

I need this things because they are the minimum in restorative justice, a concept that is important to me. I am not talking about reconciliation.


If most MLCers had a fractured personality, they would not be able to come back to normal on their own. Many things can make someone turn into a different person. Depression, thyroid problems, other hormonal problems, neurological problems, etc.


DID is recognised by a few therapist/doctors. There is big controversy about it with many doctors and therapist thinking it is not an illness, but, often, something a therapist plants into the patient mind. That is applies to the US as well. Here it is something psychiatrists tend to stay away from. Therapists here aren't qualified to make medical diagnoses, unless they also happen to be a doctor.

OffRoad mentions that DID is considered rare in the general population. This is only true if you believe what you read online at websites like webmd.

DID is not only rare, but like I said above, controversial. My friend who is a psychiatrist, his parents and sister that are psychiatrists and their collegues, who are psychiatrists do not believe in it. Doctors don't tend to believe in it here nor do therapist.

And, in the odd case they believe someone has it, they see it has a very serious, never going away thing. MLC that goes away. The courses I did about Mental Illness from American and Canadian serious universities on Coursera also weren't keen on DID, saying it is controversial.

As a general rule, MLCer do not have different talking parts, parts they don't control, etc. They do not have that level of mental illness. And most come out of MLC on their own, eliminating DID as a possibility regardless of what we think of it.

For everyone's sake it may be better if you can be kind enough and refrain from posting when you cannot control your different parts, Brain. It causes too much confusion, hurt and distress to fellow LBS. Thank you.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2019, 09:05:04 PM »
Nah, did you read what I wrote? I wrote that it was about intent, not responsibility, yet you're back to the whole responsibility issue.

I remember you writing about your behavior after BD. Your actions were deliberate. You knew what you were doing, you knew your actions would hurt other people, and you deliberately chose to do them anyway. In fact, I recall you writing that you were hoping that hurting your husband would cause him to wake up. Did you even once do something that you didn't want to do but couldn't stop yourself from doing? I wouldn't say what you went through was an MLC. I would say that you were in pain and made some F'ed up choices.

Well, if I say I couldn’t help myself, does that mean I was an official MLCer and I’m not responsible?
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Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2019, 09:12:16 PM »
I stand by my statement that if a person has DID along with mlc, it isn't just mlc, unless there is some evidence that DID IS mlc. If mlc is not DID, then it is comorbidity, which is different.(and I don't do Webmd or wiki anything, thank you :)) we can all find somehing that justifies our position somewhere on the web.

From my research, people with DID don't just come out of it without therapy. This wouldn't explain MLCers who wake up out of the fog and no longer forget any part of their lives from then on without any therapy. Unless, as I said before, DID just magically disappears at some point. (I've looked for anything on this possibility and haven't found it yet)

The only thing I find bothersome about any posts is when people cannot see that their own personal story is their own personal story. My friend knows exactly what she did. She doesn't understand why she dd it. But there was no DID involved as she knew what she was doing, just did not understand why she would do things that were detrimental to her wellbeing. In her case, she believes that her normal "personality" was not altogether hers, but a creation from what she was told she "should" do. She thinks she entered into the dark period because she needed to learn some things as her original personality had some flaws. She thinks she swung (is that a word?) Way over to the opposite side of who she is/was so she could find the correct balance. But she knows she did it, knew she was doing it at the time. She just didn't have any spouse  or family to destroy.
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Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2019, 09:47:26 PM »
I wonder if a discussion about blame, justification, intent etc is a place where some of our anger or frustration naturally comes out?  ::) and it is a discussion that also prods some of our individual psychological and philosophical beliefs maybe.

I think it breaks down in stages...
Am i aware of my own actions?
Am I in control of them?
Do I believe what I am doing is wrong or hurting others?
Do I care?

Imho people in crisis are already experts in justification lol. They don't need our help...it seems that most justify their behaviour by either blaming others or some kind of 'this is what I need to feel happy so sucks to you'. What does seem clear from the outside is that their behaviour is driven by emotional reactions and is compulsive in some way. Rather like the behaviour of an addict. So there is awareness and intent but it is in the service of escaping pain or feeling 'happy' in the short-term. The MLC justifications and blame are necessary probably bc some bit of them does know it is 'wrong'. But for me the killer app is that they don't care. The compulsion matters most. Whatever that is.

My POV is different now bc of my own experience of depression and PTSD. I understand how it feels to do things, or not do things, even when intellectually I know it makes no sense or is self-destructive. To know that you should do x and to be completely unable to do it. To feel at war with your own head. To not feel like yourself somehow. To feel disassociated and disconnected without having DID.

I believe I was aware of my behaviour but i did not always have full control of it. I knew often that it wasn't good or wise but sometimes that wasn't enough to override the need to do or not do. And although I would often feel ashamed and worse afterwards, I would still repeat the pattern...bc the need to feed the compulsion was bigger, in my case mostly a kind of deep fear. 'I can't' became my justification probably...a kind of carved in the bone victimhood.

But I also believe I was and am completely responsible for that behaviour and the effects.
And that I did not break the pattern until I felt that and started to fight the compulsions and s/t coping behaviour of my own brain. With professional help. And a bit more information about how my brain might have been affected by my own traumas.

Now in my case I don't expect to close that loop with my Xh...so my perspective on forgiveness, blame and intent is a solo effort with very little information from/about him.
But I suspect he will have to close it for himself to become an emotionally healthy person.
And yes, I think he was/is responsible for his actions
I can only go from what it felt like from the outside. He did not feel like someone with a grand evil plan. He did not feel like someone who was in control of his own behaviour. He did not feel like a normal healthy person. He did not feel like someone who cared about the consequences for anyone else.

So, on balance, I think my then h was aware (in the sense of knowing he was doing x or y) but was driven by compulsion so not always completely in control. I think he turned black into white in justifying himself when it felt uncomfortable, irrational or wrong. I don't think there was a big plan and I don't think he necessarily ended up where he intended to be, just a chain of reactions to events. Mostly though I think he simply didn't care at the moment of action about anything other than how he felt. It makes sense to me that these things would need to change - compulsion, justification and caring about the impact - in order to break that pattern.

Right now I assume - bit like gman posted somewhere - that my xh is doing what he wants to do, sees it all as normal or justifiable, or does not care about any damage or pain he caused. I assume he is happy enough in his new life and new marriage that he feels no need to do anything differently or address any of the large pile of unfinished business from his old one or how he destroyed it. That he is focused on that and probably rarely thinks about me, his past or what he did bc it doesn't serve him to do so. After all, as a vanisher, he has invested in his new life exclusively for over 3 years so it is his reality now and he ran away so he didn't see the effects of the destruction of the old. And he may stay that way for the rest of his life. My h did have the right to change his own life imho...but he didn't have the right to destroy and distress others in order to get it nor was it rationally necessary for him to do so in order to get what he wanted. For some reason though, it seems as if doing so was part of the process for him and he is ok with that. I wouldn't be but his behaviour suggests he is.

But it is reasonable that I do not accept that as ok to me, that i feel angry or resentful about being abused and hurt as a price he felt was ok as long as he felt better. And I have to own the responsibility for my own LBS justifications and rationalisations and denial too...what Acorn calls her pink tutu overlay...bc they damaged my life and spirit as well. I can understand them now but I am still responsible for them...and owning that is necessary to step on from them.

My blame or forgiveness I suppose would rest on if I could accept the reality of how it was for him. Which is more difficult to do without his input and probably what brings so many of us to HS in the first place.
And if I saw that he had taken responsibility for breaking that pattern. And i see owning all of it, taking responsibility, as being key to that.
But again in my case, my seeing him as responsible in the way I do is irrelevant really until or unless he sees it, sees that it was wrong and wants to show me that he sees it. All seem very unlikely.

For me that means imho that forgiveness is more a kind of acceptance that something seriously broke in my h and he became a person driven by different emotions and perceptions that are difficult for me to understand. And that this changed him profoundly and he became someone who was toxic to be around. I hope for him that this will not always be so but right now that seems to be how it is. I have not been required I suppose to dig out a more personal kind of forgiveness bc my xh has not yet dug out his half of taking personal responsibility enough to acknowledge anything to forgive. Or not anything involving me or others in his old life anyway. Seeing him as responsible is about respect and almost an investment in a healthy version of someone I loved...whilst accepting that this is not who he seems to be currently.

And none of this has anything to do with reconnection or standing or our past marriage.
It may have a little bit of love in there, enough love that I honestly want him to be healthy again.
But if I am absolutely honest, I care about my health and recovery much more right now bc it is still a work in progress so that is my priority. And I am lucky perhaps that his absence means I am not distracted from that by his needs.  :) His feelings or actions do not dictate my past or current reality now...and that is probably a good thing too. If new information comes along, I suppose I need to be open-minded enough to adapt to it but there is no point speculating on it is there? Right now I mostly feel most of the time as if I know enough to know my reality...and that's good enough for now.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:30:16 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2019, 10:09:14 PM »
I wonder if a discussion about blame, justification, intent etc is a place where some of our anger or frustration naturally comes out?  ::)

I don't know. It may depend of where we are in our LBS journey and who we are as a person.

and it is a discussion that also prods some of our individual psychological and philosophical beliefs maybe.

What are psychological beliefs? Philosofical, I don't know. Maybe more moral beliefs? Or our sense of right, wrong and justice?

But for me the killer app is that they don't care. The compulsion matters most.

Of course, if it is a compulsion it is going to be the most important thing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a compulsion, would it?

But, there is always a but, I think had MLCers stop to think before it got all too deep, I think we wouldn't all be here. OK, MLCers don't really stop to think, do they? Not until it is too late.  ::)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2019, 11:18:28 PM »
But there was no DID involved as she knew what she was doing, just did not understand why she would do things that were detrimental to her wellbeing.

In her case, she believes that her normal "personality" was not altogether hers, but a creation from what she was told she "should" do. She thinks she entered into the dark period because she needed to learn some things as her original personality had some flaws. She thinks she swung (is that a word?) The proper term would be switched, not swung. Way over to the opposite side of who she is/was so she could find the correct balance.

But she knows she did it, knew she was doing it at the time. She just didn't have any spouse  or family to destroy.

You're confusing me. First you say there was no DID involved. Then you describe somebody who reported a fractured personality, what used to be considered multiple personalities and is now called DID. In other words, she displayed signs of a dissociative disorder. The confusion about why she would do those things is another sign of a dissociative disorder. This confusion is what happens when your behavior is driven by an alter. Sometimes my therapist will ask one of my alters a question and I'm surprised by the answer because it isn't what I would have said. But it's what came out of my mouth. It's a strange experience when you're being influenced by an alter, especially if you don't know what an alter is or that you have them.

The only explanation I can come up with for this incongruity in your post is that perhaps you believe it couldn't be a dissociative disorder because she knew what she was doing since you made that point a couple of times, including in the part I emphasized at the beginning of the quoted section, but that simply isn't true. There are dissociative disorders that don't involve amnesia between alters, which is the situation you described with your friend. OSDD subtype 1b, which is my current diagnosis, is one of them.

Before I learned about and was diagnosed with a dissociative disorder I was like your friend. I also didn't understand why I was doing the things I did. Now I sometimes know what my alters are doing but I often still don't know why and it's difficult for me to control them. Hence, Mr. Smartypants's addition earlier.

Here's another note from Mr. Smartypants.

I found this information earlier about types of MPD (DID). I know it's just information on a website but the list of references, although older, are good ones from prominent researchers.

A couple of highlights.

Quote
Latent MPD – The alters are generally inactive but may be triggered by stressors which are somehow symbolic of the traumatic event.  Examples of this are when the patient’s children reach the age of the patient during the trauma, or the perpetrator becomes ill or dies.  During such time the alters may emerge for the first time publicly, which provides a window of diagnosability.

Many LBSes have reported that the MLC began soon after the death of a parent.

Epochal or Sequential MPD – When an alter emerges it takes over for a long period of time before the next alter takes over for another long period of time.  While one alter is out, the others go dormant.

An alter can take over for a long period of time. For years and even decades according to my therapist. During that time the new alter can still be influenced by other alters, such as the "prisoner".

COVERT MPD

            This is the form most characteristic of patients with MPD.  Alters contend for control and influence without assuming full executive control.  To patients is feels as though their lives are out of control and that their actions are imposed upon them by a power unseen rather than selected by them.

MLC, anyone?

Puppeteering or Passive-Influence Dominated MPD – The host is dominated by alters that rarely emerge.  If the host is unaware of these alters he/she feels like the victim of influences that force behavior in a direction not chosen.

Again, MLC, anyone?

Orphan Symptom MPD – Closely related to all of the covert categories.  This is the phenomenon of unexplained and spontaneous feelings, sensations, actions, or intrusive traumatic imagery which manifests in the host, is not understood by the host, and which has been triggered by a contemporary stimulus that relates to the childhood trauma.

Much like PTSD when triggered.

Understanding Multiple Personality Disorders
https://www.nurseslearning.com/courses/nrp/NRP-1618/Section%207/index.htm

The only thing I find bothersome about any posts is when people cannot see that their own personal story is their own personal story.

What I find bothersome is when somebody's post is dismissed because it is only their personal story. As far as I know, thousands of people have posted on this forum. Does that mean that there are thousands of variations of MLC? If so, it's no wonder that it's not recognized by the medical community. How could they possibly study something that is unique in every presentation? Perhaps the real reason MLC isn't recognized by the medical community is because it's already been identified under a different name.

I find it odd that dissociative disorder theory is discounted on this site since the site has such a strong Jungian emphasis. Dissociative disorder theory is consistent with and descended from Jung's complex theory which is described on The Hero's Spouse website and which many LBSes have stated is what brought them to the site.

Quote
In a comparison of the major tenets of the complex theory with recent empirical research on multiple personality, it is demonstrated that essential characteristics of Jung's 'autonomous complexes' are congruent with the phenomenology of the 'alternate personalities' or 'personality states' of this disorder. This underscores the relevance of Jung's complex theory to present understanding of multiple personality. In addition, the phenomenon of multiple personality is, in turn, important for realising the central significance of dissociation in the complex theory and provides an excellent contemporary clinical example of the archetypal ground of the psyche.

Multiple personality, dissociation, and C.G. Jung's complex theory.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2808130

I don't like the title of this thread. I don't like the word Justification. MLC doesn't need to be justified any more than diabetes or dementia do, but an Explanation might be helpful.

Offline Trustandlove

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2019, 11:34:58 PM »
What treasur wrote.

I may be reading things incorrectly, but how I read what Brain wrote about those who say that an MLCer knows EXACTLY what they are doing is that knowing exactly what they are doing implies, as treasur so eloquently put it, that the MLCer is implementing a thought-out evil plan, designed to hurt us.  And I think, and again I may be reading it incorrectly or just unable to express myself as well as I would like to, that what so many are saying is that in many cases there is no overall coherent evil plan, they are carried away by other forces, like an addiction.

Now that does NOT in any way, shape, or form absolve the perpetrator of responsibility.  Explanation isn't an excuse. 

I myself went through a bad period when I was much younger -- at the age when so much is excused because of youth and inexperience, and I hurt people during that time.  But it was about 6 years, so not just a little blip.   And I had some serious amends to make and some serious fixing to do when I "woke up".  Which I did, to the best of my ability. 

At no point did I think  -- "Ha, I'm going to stick it to _______", even while I was doing something that turned out to be hurtful to them.  I had in some way turned off the bit of me that thought about how what I was doing would affect them, and I honestly thought, at the time, that I was doing what was right, I believed things I shouldn't have believed, I could go on.

I'm not trying to justify my actions, I was responsible for them, even though I was 18 when this started (which I now think is still a child, looking at my own children) , and much was a reaction to my own FOO things.  And I don't know where I would be if my family had said "forget it, stay away, you are crap", rather than be relieved that I came to my senses.  Again, that is easier when the perpetrator is young, but still. 

And that is definitely a period of my life that I want to forget about, when I did wake up I tried to clean up the mess as fast as I could so that I didn't have to think about it again.  The only thing that carried over is that at some point I did explain to my children about it, so that they wouldn't hear about it from anyone else, but other than that I have mercifully been able to overcome it. 

Even so, it remains part of my story.

The point is that I DID do what I did, but in all honestly at the time I didn't understand the longer term consequences.  I started waking up when I started to understand things like that.  Now that can also be a factor of just growing up in general, because as I said I was young at the time, but still.  And if finding a way to "package" that time helped all concerned then so be it. 

Now that isn't MLC, but it's the closest I have to understanding what a brain fog must be like.

And I think that the key to my actions being "forgiven" by those affected was that I owned them.  I remember, when I was starting to realise that what I was doing wasn't good, that I didn't want to change course because I didn't want to hear "I told you so".  I also remember the day that I woke up realising that I was willing to deal with "I told you so", and from there things moved quickly.

The final bit of that was that when I really was willing to deal with "I told you so", no one actually said that (even if they probably thought it).  Somehow they must have felt that my remorse was real, and we were able to quickly rebuild from there.

I'm sorry if this sounds simplistic, it's the best I can do right now.   

Offline Whyus

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2019, 11:42:44 PM »
I just wrote a Long post with quotes as I seem to be the evil one here because I blame my MLC and NOT THE FOG for her Actions! I then deleted and thought firetruck it, theres no Point. Everything gets twisted here anyways.
Sorry for being honest and open and trying to protect People from years of heartache with (in most cases) nothing at the end except D and more pain. Some dont want to accept the reality and thats fine by me too.

I stand by what I wrote "They know EXACTLY what they are doing" because they do. I didnt realize that such a short sentence could start such a $h!testorm. I apreciate the Input from Shocks sis but she still blames the fog and even blamed her H at one Point for them not being together because he didnt wait!!!!!!! I mean WTF? Sure, he made bad choices but the guy was in total shock and defended himself the way that he thought right att.

If somebody wants to blame the fog and not the MLCer then fine, go ahead. Its not my life, its yours and each to their own.
Have a nice weekend

Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. W is actually getting People to accept/Tolerate them.
2 Sons - 19 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2019, 11:53:43 PM »
WhyUs...nothing wrong with your post. It is how you feel and what makes sense to you about your own experience and what helps you adjust and move forward. Imho that is good enough and our target as an LBS.

Different people have different experiences and reach different conclusions that help them accept, adapt and move forward. And that's ok too. It's the stuff that keeps us stuck for a long time that isn't so helpful imho.

My perspective has undoubtedly been shaped by two things; very little contact or information from a vanisher who remarried, and my own experience of having a not very healthy mind for a while. The latter meant I experienced things in my own behaviour that I never had before and that has probably left me with a different POV on others behaviour too. Which currently works fine for where I am so that's ok too.  :) None of us have the perfect answers do we? Just good enough hopefully for us.  :)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 11:54:45 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2019, 11:57:26 PM »
Quote
I don't like the title of this thread. I don't like the word Justification

And quite a few of us didn't like the comment you made in one of your posts on shocksis's thread. 

Quote
I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself.

The word" Justification" came out of quite a few of the posts on shocksis's thread and so it seemed expedient late last night when splitting these posts off to make sure that people knew quickly where this interesting debate had gone to.
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Whyus

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2019, 12:04:18 AM »
WhyUs...nothing wrong with your post.

Thanks Treasur, Brain seems to think that everything is wrong with it as he started a $h!testorm with it. Saying that though, who am I to compare myself with an ex MLCer? I havent been there and hopefully never will go there and so I dont know what it is like.
If he says that they dont know what they are doing then there it is! What more do we Need to know? They are all pardoned and can do as they please because they just aren't themselves.
Sounds like more hiding behind the fog and blame pushing to me!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 12:05:28 AM by Whyus »
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. W is actually getting People to accept/Tolerate them.
2 Sons - 19 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Offline Whyus

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2019, 12:24:57 AM »
I just wrote a Long post with quotes as I seem to be the evil one here because I blame my MLC and NOT THE FOG for her Actions! I then deleted and thought firetruck it, theres no Point. Everything gets twisted here anyways.

It seems like your wife isn't the only one who has a hard time expressing remorse for upsetting others.
Im sorry Brain, I didnt realize that writing "they know EXACTLY what they are doing" could upset somebody. If that upsets you then you obviously still have some work to do. I have never done anything to upset anybody in RL and when im wrong I admit it ALWAYS and always take responsibility of my Actions. Enough already, I dont want to Play handbags here as its totally pointless and helps nobody.
Enjoy your weekend.
I will thank you, Stand up paddleboarding is on the Agenda if the weather is suitable.
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. W is actually getting People to accept/Tolerate them.
2 Sons - 19 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Offline Silver

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2019, 12:29:16 AM »
I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.

Sorry but a bit hard to take anything you write seriously after this. Please think before pressing post button.

"I've seen dreams that move the mountains, hope that doesn't ever end even when the sky is falling. I've seen miracles just happen, silent prayers get answered, broken hearts become brand new. That's what faith can do." Kutless

Offline GoodbyeAndGoodLuck

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2019, 12:32:13 AM »
Whatever you say. This is your site. Have a good life.

Offline Whyus

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2019, 12:34:45 AM »
What Silver said x10
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. W is actually getting People to accept/Tolerate them.
2 Sons - 19 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Online 1trouble

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2019, 01:12:35 AM »
I have skimmed through some of this thread and can see there is a lot of heated debate.

So have purposely not read anyone's posts in detail, however I get the general gist of what this thread is about

And I want to add my take on it...

I saw my loving faithful kind husband change within a matter of weeks to someone erratic, manic and distant.
I sat there as he said he felt numb, he knew he loved me and Jet but he couldn't feel it,

I saw him loose an incredible amount of weight in 8 weeks and turn from a muscular man into a puny 6ft 2in shadow of his former self

He didn't sleep, he worked 18 hour days and he did all this eating a pack of ham and some crackers.

I saw sometimes a frightened look in his eyes and the man I knew and I saw him look at me sometimes as if I disgusted him and other times with a blank look as if nothing was being processed behind his eyes.

We have had many conversations (which I have documented on here) in those conversations he has been confused, contradictory and sometimes sounded himself.

I have seen him stand in the living room and look around talking to himself and saying 'this is me, this is the real me, not the $hite I have been doing'.....trying to remind himself of who he is...

I have heard him talk about the OW in cold dismissive terms like a work colleague he doesn't like......without seeing the irony that he married this woman

He has asked me a number of times to help him in genuine despair and other times because he really wants to be ok, but then the fog comes in and there is this look in his eyes and I know, without him saying a word, I have lost him to the fog again.
I remember having a conversation with my BF who's mother was, at the time, suffering from the middle stages of dementia and she said it was a very similar experience, seeing her real mum and talking to her for a few moments only to lose her to the grips of dementia again.....

Over the last four years I have seen a change in him and slowly I have seen a little more empathy, a little more awareness of what he is doing, gone is the mania, the need to drink himself into oblivion, there is more distain for the OW, he has not made and sort of attempt to flirt or fleece me (like he did, every time we met, for the first 2-3 years)….
So I believe he is very slowly coming back

There is so much more I could add, but to summarise, from what I have witnessed with my own eyes, what I have read on here and researched and from experiences from many others who have been in MLC (not MLT which BTW I think is markedly different from a MLC), I have no doubt in saying this....

I truly think this is a mental health condition brought on because of trauma in childhood which has meant the person has been carrying a huge amount of pain throughout their lives which, because it happened to them in a key developmental part of their lives they did not develop the emotional maturing to deal with or even the ability to voice it or ask for help.

At ML most of us experience a feeling of some sort of panic (I know I did and several people in my social circle have) where you start to question your life choices and realise you havent much time left to do the things you have always wanted to do or dreamed of...BUT the difference for someone in MLC is they havent the skills and strength of some of us to process these feelings and turn them into something positive and when they look back at their lives suddenly they are not seeing good childhood memories they are seeing and remembering traumatic one's or very sad ones AND then some other traumatic event occurs or  a significant life change (like kids leaving home, jobs lost etc, health problems in them or someone close) and all this creates the "perfect storm".

And this chain of events leads to a unique type of depression which we all see as MLC.

And I do think it is a unique type of depression and I do think it effects the area of the brain which deals with decision making, long term planning, empathy etc.

And this is a long winded way of saying ................

I do believe in the moment they know what they are doing BUT (a HUGE BUT HERE) they cannot connect this decision to any feelings of empathy, any feelings of rationality or long term consequences.
Its like a child seeing an ice cream seller on the other side of a busy road and deciding they want an ice cream without seeing the traffic and the danger.

When anyone NOT in MLC makes a decision, they do it with a fully functioning brain which allows them to weigh up the consequences, be able to make plans weighing up the long term implications, appreciate the impact on others and to empathise and see another persons point of view.

MLC'ers brains do not function like this when in crisis, they can make decisions yes, very bad one's but whilst in crisis they are unable to appreciate or care about the impact of their choices, 'feel' or even acknowledge the pain they are causing.  This is not an excuse, this is what I have seen and also what you read in the vast majority of stories from 'recovered' MLC'ers and its why I see again and again LBS's questioning whether their spouse is a narcissist.




« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 01:17:34 AM by 1trouble »
"I can't go back to yesterday I was a different person then"..............Alice in Wonderland

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Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2019, 01:37:23 AM »
You are confusing me also MBIB. First you say an MLCer doesn't know what they are doing and that DID and mlc are the same. Then you post that a person with DID knows what they are doing and doesn't always have amnesia. Which is it, does the mlcer know what they are doing or not? Is MLC really DID or something else? Does a person get to do whatever they want/are compelled to do with no outside consequences? For the person having the issue/mlc/what have you, it's Hell. For the person on the receiving end, it's Hell. The difference is that the person on the receiving end is still on the RECEIVING end of hatred and anger. If at some point that anger and hatred is reflected back, that is a normal part of the grieving of loss.

I do not dismiss someone else's story. It is that person's journey. I also do not embrace someone's elses DID as being what my H has gone through, although I don't discount it could be some personality anomaly. Is "The Devil made me do it. I couldn't stop it." an acceptable explanation for every single mlcer? Is that ok to teach our children, that your parent doesn't know what he/she is doing so it's ok if they do the wrong things, or verbally abuse them, or neglect them? That is for every person to decide for themselves. I can have understanding that there may be something mentally out of place with xh, but that does not mean I was going to let him tell our son he was a total loser, wasn't going to graduate high school and should never have been born. My choice to protect my child. I didn't see a point in having a second generation screwed up beyond recognition. And my XH doesn't know that my running interference ensured he could keep a relationship with his son. Tell me that wasn't compassion on my part.

I'm sorry you had/are still in crisis, MBIB. If you were not unkind to your W and family, if your W couldn't feel your thoughts that you were "stuck with her until she dies" and you never spoke an angry word to her during your crisis, good on you. That is not the reality for most people here. Most people here had their lives torn asunder with hate and anger and vitriol and cruelty. It would be hard to decide "Sure, take all the money leave the kids and I homeless and destitute, with no means of support while mlc spouse spends money on luxuries and vacations with some other person, but it's ok. Mlc spouse is having a crisis and can't control him/herself". The average person would never consider such a thing acceptable at all.
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Offline Trustandlove

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2019, 02:47:03 AM »
I may be missing something here, but I fail to see where understanding what might be happening with an MLCer is excusing them or saying it's OK. 

None of us think that what they did/are doing is OK, from what I can see. 

And I don't see how describing the "fog" is blaming the "fog", or how it somehow gives them a free pass. 

Quote
I can have understanding that there may be something mentally out of place with xh, but that does not mean I was going to let him tell our son he was a total loser, wasn't going to graduate high school and should never have been born.

Of course you wouldn't let him tell your son that.  And of course you wouldn't tell your son that it was OK for him to say that because he was in crisis. 

Again, I am not the best writer here, others might be able to put this better. 

It's not OK, just as whatever an addict does to feed his addiction isn't OK. 

And standing doesn't mean that we think it's OK, at least not how I understand standing. 

And I don't think anybody is saying that their behaviour is acceptable, that leaving us destitute while going out spending is acceptable.  Nobody, at least as far as I can see, is saying that it's OK because they are in crisis. 

Am I completely missing the point?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 02:49:21 AM by Trustandlove »

Offline stayed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2019, 04:17:28 AM »
MLC'ers know!  They know what they are doing.  They know it is wrong.  They even know, they will PROBABLY regret it.  Many of these MLC'ers always played by the rules.  Never stepped out of line.  Worked hard at school.  Did what they were told by parents, preachers, teachers, bosses!  They want to live on the wildside.... just once!

It gets away from them.  It started out being so inconsequential, sort of an experiment of being somebody other then who they had always been, then WHAM!  They've destroyed their lives and taken a whole bunch of wonderful people with them. 

Some are able to recover, return to the life they left.  Most do not.  Sad.

Good discussion.  Hugs Stayed
Married 41yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

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Offline Acorn

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2019, 04:58:24 AM »
MLC'ers know!  They know what they are doing. 

Yes. My H said so. 

They know it is wrong. 

Yes.  My H said so. 

They even know, they will PROBABLY regret it. 

Not just ‘PROBABLY’, but he knew with certainty.  He told me so.

I had suggested to H at one point that his crisis was making him do all those out of character things.  He bristled and said, ‘I’m not insane. I know what I’ve done’

My understanding of this thread is that the topic has less to do with debating MLCer’s responsibility or the lack there of, but why LBS thinks this way or that.   That is part of our journey to understand ourselves better, heal and grow, IMHO.

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

I’m not saying the topic is irrelevant.  I’m suggesting that the focus may need to swing to LBS?


« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 05:13:22 AM by Acorn »
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2019, 05:53:48 AM »
Those are great questions Acorn.

We spend so much time focusing on the MLC stages (which is perfectly normal to do in the early years) that we forget that LBSers also have stages, and like the MLCers, we can get stuck in those stages, or even cycle back and forth between them (I know I cycled back and forth for a long time)

Is it possible that some of us desperately cling to “it’s not their choice”, as part of their denial stage?
Some cling to anger (nothing wrong with anger, it’s a normal and useful emotion, just too much for too long, will eat at you).
IMO, I think it’s even unhealthy to jump to forgiveness too early. I think many of us say the words bc we just can’t cope with what we are really feeling (I did this too, and then cycled back)

Also, just bc I ask questions about accountability/responsibility/choices doesn’t mean I’m angry, I’m not sure how their choice vs non-choice related to a left spouse holding onto anger. I can say, “hey, the man I used to be married to left bc he made some F’d up choices” and leave it at that.
No anger, just facts. 

« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 05:55:30 AM by nah »
H-54
me-52
ow-30
married 1986
BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
https://heneversaidaword.com

Offline stayed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2019, 06:18:46 AM »
Quote
My understanding of this thread is that the topic has less to do with debating MLCer’s responsibility or the lack there of, but why LBS thinks this way or that.   That is part of our journey to understand ourselves better, heal and grow, IMHO.

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

I’m not saying the topic is irrelevant.  I’m suggesting that the focus may need to swing to LBS?

Yes Acorn, this is what I love to see.  Bring this back to where it belongs, the LBS.  These are good questions.  Nah responses are good starting points, all of her suggestions I could totally relate to and also, experienced when in the midst of this nightmare.  I think in many ways it is the way we PROTECT ourselves.  Finding excuses for why we are ALLOWING our loved spouse to treat us in this way, we are not BATTERED spouses, we were in loving relationships..... how, why is he/she treating us this way now and more importantly, why/how are we allowing them to do so.  For me, allowing my h's crisis to effect me the way it and by reacting so passively and pathetically, it truly destroyed my self confidence.  To put it frankly, I felt ABUSED... battered.... beat down, had absolutely no idea how to deal with it.   At least ANGER alleviates the feeling of abuse/battered/helplessness.   That is why I searched for a forum of people in the same situation.

Wishing a crisis "pox" upon all of us who have NEVER had one, is just plain cruel and totally uncalled for.  I don't think you could find a more compassionate group then the fine people this forum attracts.  Questioning STUFF is not criticism, be it about ourselves, our spouses or even others.  Trying to protect ourselves from falling into "victim" mode is a constant struggle, experienced by us all.

I am looking forward to hearing responses to Acorns questions..... we can't do anything about our MLC's, we all know this.  So, why do we spend so much time wondering, trying to figure out why they went where they did.  Shocked Sis had a very viable answer, she said it was like having a nervous breakdown without going completely over the edge.  Let's go with that and figure out why it is so important to us to find a reason that somebody we loved so much has betrayed us so terribly.  Let's try and figure that out.

Good response Nah.... thanks..

Hugs Stayed

« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:24:30 AM by stayed »
Married 41yrs.
Reconciled July 5, 2006

"Don't be so open minded your brains fall out".  by Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.
"We believe marriage is sacred, but it is not our job to save marriages; it is our goal to empower each of you to save your own marriage."

Stayed Husband Letter
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Offline Father5

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2019, 06:47:41 AM »
I did get angry ! Beyond angry , I broke a chair ,punched holes in the wall. I called her horrible names. Then I felt awful for that! Why? She had no compassion for me . Treated me like something smelly on the bottom of her shoe.

 I guess I feel in someway now I am owed an explanation of why I was treated so terribly. The lack of empathy and feeling for how I felt was the worst part of it.

 I know why I felt that way. Fear of abandonment and some PTSD. It took me a year and a lot of reading and counseling to come to that conclusion.

  I need her to feel again even if we never get back together . I am still the father of her children. The fact I can't get an apology or hey I f'd up I am sorry is really what gets me angry now.

 She is still trying to screw me over. She's a millionaire and doesn't ever have to worry about money yet still wants half of mine. WTF did I do to deserve this !!!!!!

 Now I have to ask myself why I still love her? Why would I still love her and where did my cute never argumentative Down to Earth wife go. Where did the girl go who wouldn't hurt a fly???

 
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2019, 07:09:31 AM »
Yes, the intent of the post had to do with focusing on the LBS. 

I'd agree with Nah that some people certainly cling to the denial stage with finding excuses and explanations for the MLCer. 

As well there is the ever present group of people who take great offense or express great discomfort with anyone who is in the anger stage or just situationally angry.  It really used to make me furious when one if them would state with dismissive words, well you know lp is angry.  If I wasn't before, now I am.

You bet I was angry.  I made that little comment by whyus look like a love note.  Whyus, you weren't around when I was in the anger stage.  My husband beat me and broke bones in my face.  A few days after I got out of the hospital he came back for a second round except I was angry.  I snatched up a piece of a 2 x 4 and chased him down the street walloping him with it dressed in high heels and with my neighbors watching a lawyer and a doctor providing a floor show with me yelling you will not hit me, a whack for each word over and over.

Now I wouldn't recommend that approach to anyone but I understand anger.  And he never beat me again.

The site pushes so hard for the posters to focus on forgiveness rather than helping people navigate the stages of the LBS because the focus is too much on the MLCer.  That's partially because it's easier and less potentially explosive for conflict avoidant people to navigate in my opinion.  Yet that is so detrimental to the LBS to try to skip steps because that stage will just pop up later and worse. 

Asking hard questions, being blunt or concise, that's not necessarily anger yet many here are quick to call it that.  If a MLCer comes here they should expect tough questions and easy questions.  Yes they come here freely in presumably a spirit of helping but that doesn't mean they should be treated by some as having the key to the universe.  And at the same time that doesn't mean to treat them disrespectfully.  The ones that are angry are often the ones that COULD benefit the most from their words.  As a side note it's interesting that so many LBS'S have trouble making distinctions between types of emotions and identifying emotions even when describing how they feel at a given moment. 

I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind certain people that anger can be not just a normal stage but useful when channeled.  Anger is a stage not a place to stop and live.  People go through it at their own pace.  One poster here told me she was never angry with her ex just hurt.  Months later she cycled back and picked up that stage and learned to embrace it.  She called after having a bad day.  Everything that went wrong was ex's fault somehow.  She then had a dream about running him over while driving a little red convertible. Now we laugh when she has a bad day and I ask her, so how is the ex's fault? 

Forgiveness isn't the goal I think should be pushed on the forum.  Acceptance comes in time if we work towards it.  Within acceptance we may find a degree of forgiveness.  But there are no shortcuts. 

Wishing a pox on posters?  Sounds a lot like MLC spew I got when I didn't agree with him and gush accolades for his uniqueness and brilliance.  Water off a ducks back. 

Whyus, you rock for speaking your truths and not letting the discussion be reframed and twisted into a pretzel you never intended.  Nah, as always your mind is the most beautiful part of you, and according to the male population that's saying a lot.  Stayed, it's been too long since I've seen you here but I know you're busy with that handsome long legged Canadian who can't keep his hands off you. 

As always just my opinions and thoughts.  As Off Road says, your mileage may vary.

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline OneHotMess

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2019, 07:23:54 AM »
I spent 2 years of my life trying to justify for my ex. And then my own crisis started flashing back in my head. I hate that I pushed everyone away for a year. I blamed myself for the ex jumping ship and going to his cousin. Now, I don’t anymore. In my crisis, I did nothing to cause my family to go from 1 to 2 families. I know he knows what he is doing because he gives our friends a play by play as he is doing it. But what I know in my crisis, is that I wasn’t me. It makes me cry when something comes back to me in that time period. Does it excuse me? Not at all and nothing excuse my ex from doing the horrible things he has done. The last thing I want my kids to see, is that you can rip everyone’s life to pieces and have no consequences.

Do I want him to hang for it? No.i still love my husband and  want him to work through this to  get his life back in order for my kids. I’m not saying that I have enough in me to take him back. That is a door that will forever be closed. I have found in my particular situation, that hating him or trying to figure out what he is thinking was sucking the life out of me. I had to turn my back and leave him be. I am the one that is as no contact as I can be with him. We email maybe once or twice a month about something the kids are doing and that is because I have to for the courts. This time really is for me and my kids.

It is helpful  to read how the mlcers come back and reflect on these years.thank you to all of you that share your stories.  In the end, does it really matter what they did or didn’t not know they were doing? They did it and it is over. One thing I told my ex in the beginning is that you can not change the past so don’t even bring it up. It is what it is. What will they do to change the future?
M 40
H 41
He moved out May 21,2017
Ow 41( his 1st cousin) moved her in May 23, 2017, she went back to her husband Oct 2017
Ow moved back with her 2 kids Jan 1 2018 even with courts cutting his visitation with his kids because of it
T-19 yr M-14 yrs
S13 & D8
BD  February 12 2017 & April 22 2017 (signs of MLC since 2015)
I filed for divorce June 2 2017 for protection- final hearing on our 20th anniversary (July 11,2018) divorce was final August 9, 2018

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8791.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8948.0
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9189.0
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10052.150

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2019, 07:31:47 AM »
I hate to be vindictive but I hope that each and everyone of you who is so self-righteous and quick to condemn those who have experienced this crisis end up going through the crisis yourself. It could easily happen. It isn't unusual for both partners to do so, one after the other, and the fact that you haven't had one yet, doesn't mean that you won't. After all, none of us, including our spouses, had any idea that our spouse would ever experience this crisis so how can you be so sure it won't happen to you? In fact, I think that being so quick to place blame is one sign of somebody who is likely to have a crisis. I'm looking forward to welcoming all of you self-righteous and judgmental people to our world.



Sorry but a bit hard to take anything you write seriously after this. Please think before pressing post button.

I haven't even finished reading through this entire thread yet. 

I've been blocked by multiple people on this forum.  And I consider myself to be a very logical person who tries to post my thoughts as respectfully as possible.  I've never said anything this self-righteously angry, self-absorbed and inflammatory (okay, until right now, I guess  ::))
Wth is happening here?

FWIW, I've never had an MLC.  But I have been in a life "crisis" for the past few years.  And cancer treatment also has me sitting here thinking how the hell is 2019 because for me, it still feels like it should be 2017, like I've lost 2 years. 
I lost time.  Or rather, time passed and I didn't even notice.  I made choices that were not wise but that I felt I "had" to make given my situation.
I had what I felt like were out of body experiences during some of my treatment time, like I was outside of myself watching myself.
I thought about suicide every day for over a year.  Every. Single. Day.
I also for a period where I was what I'd call "passively suicidal" - skipping doses of my oral chemotherapy, knowing it could harm me, but not caring and not being able to stop myself from skipping it.
At my lowest point, when I was screaming into the void, I knew what I was doing. 

Anyway, I don't want to take part in the "they know what they're doing/they're deep in a fog" debate.  I know my opinion - they know what they're doing - and I'm not looking to argue about it. 

There are a million reasons a person can disassociate.
It's a psychological defense mechanism.  Disassociating at difficult times in life is different than having a diagnosis of DID that is ongoing.
But I'm not interested in having any debate over that either. 

I just wanted to share what I shared to show that you don't have to have had an MLC to understand some of the possible feelings of an MLCer.

What I see missing a lot on this forum of late is a willingness to hear and understand others
who have different experiences than you or feel differently than you.
I see a quickness to call others judgmental, to refer to their ideas as "wrong," "simplistic," or "mean."
(As I said, I've been blocked by more than one member of this forum.  I can't find a single comment in my post history that has ever been made with the sole intent to dismiss someone or been so egregious that it warrants being blocked and labeled as someone whose contributions should be ignored.)

It seems oftentimes that sharing an opinion is being viewed as being inflammatory.
EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US is entitled to form our own opinion and express that opinion.

In my OPINION, MBIB, your reaction to the discussion and your statement that you hope we end up feeling the intense pain you feel all MLCers feel was an extreme overreaction.  And it was cruel.

Do you think I haven't experienced pain on the level you feel all MLCers are in pain?
I was financially ruined, gaslighted and then abandoned.
I was diagnosed advanced cancer and have endured 2 years of brutal treatments.
I lost both of my parents in a 3-week time span earlier this year.
I have no home and sleep in someone's basement.
I am psychologically wounded and plagued by severe anxiety due to all of the above, and sometimes feel so desperate, I become paralyzed from the sheer weight of it all.

I would never, ever in a million years wish my pain on anyone else.
Why would you?  Someone said something you disagreed with and as a response, you wished them to literally feel tortured.
Maybe that needs some examining. 








Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Acorn

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2019, 08:01:15 AM »
I’m surprised and sorry to hear that you’ve been blocked, Nas.  I have always considered your posts logical, respectful and helpful. 

I hope you can soon post your astute comments without further hinderance. 

Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2019, 08:03:53 AM »
Thank you, Acorn.  I feel the very same about your immensely helpful posts.

To be clear, I haven't been blocked or restricted by the moderators.  I've been blocked (using the option in user settings) by several fellow forum members so that I don't see their posts and they don't see mine.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online marvin4242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2019, 08:20:31 AM »
There is a lot of heat (understandably) in this thread. But in my opinion there is also a lot of light. It is sometimes difficult to talk about topics when they are so charged.

But if we can take away the charge and maybe a few things said in the heat of the moment I am not so sure what is conflicted about what MBIB is trying to say. I am also in the camp that sees a lot of the MLC process as a psychological fracture, that it has roots in childhood, it is something that is papers over for a long time until it simply is not contained anymore. Or maybe some fundamental psychological coping structure never fully develops, and the weight of an adult life and conflicts and internal pain finally is too much and the entire house falls down.

Disassociation covers many things and is a spectrum, not two points. So it switching, it can be entire personalities or just mood states. I hear what MBIB is saying is that people in MLC change because of these coping mechanism which become rather acute. I agree. I also can hold the idea that it does not absolve them of the CONSEQUENCES of what they are doing. I am sure at some level they all know what they are doing, they are not helpless victims. But I am pretty sure that most of them are not making happy happy choices and twirling their mustaches, otherwise they would not have the shark eyes, the deep pain, the conflict. And the one real giveaway: healthy people making choices do not harm the people they love AND cut off their best support system.

To be clear to have empathy and understanding does not mean saying it is ok, or to take anyone of the hook as it were. We can choose any path we want as MLCers. I, like MBIB, find that holding empathy and understanding has made this much easier for me and has allowed me to heal and move on. Others may find anger helps them heal, unless it becomes toxic in itself. Because anger that remain for periods of time is not healthy for the person who holds it and probably means they are stuck in their pain in some way. This is NOT meant to be an accusation btw.

To me a big part of mental health is connection to reality. Disassociation and switching are indications that reality can not be tolerated, but as coping mechanisms they take away short term pain at the expense of much larger long term damage. The consequences of these are part of the reality that MLCers will have to face. Unfortunately as LBSes we also suffer these consequences although it was not something we instigated. Such is life, it is unfair, but we have to accept what has happened and figure out how to move on.

Offline Mrs.Smiling

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2019, 08:54:06 AM »
Quote
find that holding empathy and understanding has made this much easier for me and has allowed me to heal and move on.

Beautiful...As I 100% agree to this statement. Kindness and compassion. The question lies within, would you kick a man that's in pain? Why would you add to someone else's suffering, to their own pain, their own confusion and hell that they are battling on a daily basis. They (MLCer's) may know of what they are doing (choices, we all make choices), but within their choices, they are still battling deep inside, maybe a battle that nobody else is aware of, a hell that they have been burying down for years, I knew of exh's battles early into our marriage, I lived them, we spoke of them, I watched this wonderful loving and caring man crumble before me, numb to everything that surrounds him, one day at a time. It breaks my heart that he has been battling such trauma for so long (chaotic kid, FOO issues), however, i have also learned over my own healing and mirror work, I can not fix him. His "choices" were just that, choices. He needs to grow and learn, to fix him, but it is not the right of me to kick a man before me while he is in his own pain. As it is nobody's right to harm another human being simply because you do not like what they have done. Forgiveness inside for me, was to forgive what has happened, so i am better at being there for someone else whilst they go through their own.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:00:14 AM by Mrs.Smiling »
Be the best version of yourself... there is no other

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Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2019, 09:05:17 AM »
 Nas I'm sorry. 

People who block others do so most often I think when the poster hits a nerve and the blocker simply can't or won't deal with the issue.  Too scared.  In denial.  Conflict avoidant.  Not ready.  Years ago Brain blocked Stayed and I for example.  Water off a ducks back.  His choice. 

Acorn's questions:

If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

I can't claim that one

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

Can't claim that one but likely had something to do with my prosecutor position and experience working with and researching those commonly called serial killers.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

In the beginning I was angry. 

It was my go to response for hurt. 

It also had something to do with ego.  I thought by all objective standards I had my life under control.  I believed I had made it up the social ladder from poor to upper middle class at least.  We were a power couple, and I was arrogant and sure. 

It had something to do with embarrassment.  This baboon left me for a child!  She had no job, no education, no woman's figure for sex appeal.  Wtf!  How could I explain that to our colleagues and friends and family?  This little girl wore pig tails and a hello Kitty back pack daily!!!  Dear heaven was he always attracted to children??  Was he a child molester?  Could I have missed that with all my education in criminal deviance?  Was I stupid? 

Understanding?  Yes, I spent time studying MLC and had a decent understanding of it, theories, time here, time with Hearts Blessing.  The whole 9 yards.  So I treated him later with detached understanding.

Compassion?  I still don't treat him with great compassion.  More like general polite disinterest.  I'm sorry he is in crisis.  But I'm doing nothing to help or influence it other than not renewing the order of protection and not reporting his violation of the op when he began emailing me some years ago.  I rarely answer the emails (did tell him I was sorry to hear his sister passed away)  as it's not my interest.  His circus, his monkeys. I won't do anything to impede his progress but I also am not interested in aiding it either.  I'm done.  I did my time with J aiding.  That when I learned compassion and a fuller understanding of MLC in seeing from beginning to end.

But that still didn't loop me over to seeing this as something the MLCer doesn't get to own or looking for justification. 

At the beginning of the ending of J's crisis he tried various excuses on for size.  He tried, ow was crazy and drove me crazy....but I picked her.  Oops not a fit.  Then he tried, well all my stepdads were drunks and beat me....but I'm acting like them.  Oops not a fit.  Until one day he came to the conclusion, it was me (him).  Ah that fits.  "I'm done with excuses.  How do I fix this best I can?". And so it began. 

Lp

if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2019, 09:31:32 AM »
Nas, you are not blocked from us.   :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2019, 09:35:40 AM »



If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

In the beginning, I made excuses for his behavior, but those excuses were more for ME, to help me try to explain how it could be possible. 
He couldn't be hurting me by choice.  He must not be thinking clearly, something must be wrong.  There must be something I can do to help him.
At a certain point, I had realized he had many opportunities to stop doing what he was doing.  I am one of the rare LBS that actually got their spouse to go to therapy shortly after BD.  He went for 3 months.  He could have chosen to address his problems a different way.
I am fairly certain the therapist did not sit with him and blame me for all his problems.
At one point, he said to me, "You think about us.  I think about me.  I'm selfish."
He didn't come up with that gem all on his own.  It came from a therapy session.  It's highly likely the therapist talked to him, either in a roundabout way or straight out, about his behavior and how it would affect our him, me and our marriage. 
He did not veer from his path.  But he could have.

He did not have to do any of the things he did.  Getting a new phone number and not telling me while I was in chemotherapy...he did not have to do that.  He chose to do it. 
Early on, also while still in therapy, he wrote in an email that he was sorry for the money he spent and the way that he spent it (i.e. blowing every penny on business scams he previously would have smelled as rotten from a mile away).
Do I think he has no idea or understanding of the fact that he is living his life without paying me a dime while I'm destitute and cancer made things much worse?
He knows.
There are no excuses to be made for him. 
I have walked through hell and felt despair and depression I previously never could have imagined.  If I were doing to someone what he's done/doing to me, I would know it, whether I cared or not at the time.


If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

I'm not and never have.  Again, I've been in a fog of my own for two years.  My personal belief is that only a complete and total psychotic break would make someone "not entirely responsible" for doing awful things.  And a person in a psychotic break would not be able to function in day to day life, least of all be able to start and build a new career and carry on new relationships.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

No intense resentment and anger from me.  Just as someone previously said, I believe it was Nah, stating facts about the terrible things someone has done does not equate to bitterness and anger.
Compassion to me is a tricky thing when a person is still engaging in the kind of behavior that shows they don't care about anyone but themselves.  Will I have compassion if my H decides to turn himself around and get help for whatever issues are plaguing him?  Of course.

Right now my compassion is largely being used up on myself.  It's not that I don't have compassion for him.  It's that I don't see any reason to be outwardly compassionate towards him now - meaning I don't need to reach out to let him know I have compassion.  I don't need to let him know anything. 
He's a mostly-vanisher and chose to not only leave, but chose to close off most avenues of communication.  It's not my responsibility to try to reopen those communication channels or to find a way to let him know that I will be here if he does attempt to reopen them.
It's his responsibility to get to a point where he would even exam why he closed those channels to begin with and then be healthy and mature enough to take whatever corrective steps he thinks he needs to take to reopen them if he so chooses.



Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2019, 09:37:32 AM »
Nas, you are not blocked from us.   :)

Thank you, Thunder.  I know that, and hope I made it clear that I was not saying the forum mods blocked or restricted me.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2019, 09:56:21 AM »
Yes you did.   ;)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Bewildered survivor

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2019, 10:03:26 AM »
Ok after lots of debate & discussion - all I have to offer is something very simple compared to everything else said on here. I may be being too simplistic or black and white but this is how I see it.....factors of MLC such as fog, confusion, DID, even MLC itself is just an explanation not an excuse. It’s as simple as that as the issue is way to complex to be able to decide one way or another about justification...way tooo many variables involved so not sure why we are even trying to.

It would be like someone saying I slept with someone whilst I was intoxicated or high and don’t remember doing it so it’s not my fault. Although the explanation is believable and it’s true they don’t remember a lot of what they may have done but they are still responsible. We’ve had this debate before and I think I expressed my opinions about how much it takes to say someone doesn’t have mental capacity.

From what I’ve seen of my MLCer I support the idea of the fog, confusion and definitely the addiction/compulsion. Despite the horrendous monstering IF my H apologies and showed remorse this would help me feel compassion and forgive him. However at the moment I do not see myself being able to commit to a relationship with him as I just wouldn’t be able to get past it all and trust again.

I’ve also heard my H say “all my feelings are gone for you- I feel nothing”, “I know there’s something not right” & “ I know I’m going to regret ending this marriage”. I believe him.  But with these statements came a complete lack of insight as it was during BD & it was all my fault. I have no idea what he thinks now as we have pretty much no contact and he’s deep in the tunnel. Like 1T said I’m one of those with a MLCer with narcissistic tendencies.  I really don’t know if he knows what he’s doing but either way makes no difference to the outcome for me.

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2019, 10:11:19 AM »
Quote
If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 

Initially immediately after BD I didn't. I stated it was his problem and he had to sort it. Then as I calmed down I made excuses such as severe depression so that I could have a breather from my hurt, anger and panicstricken state. It happened to be true once I found this site.  I didn't excuse anything he did with OW or said etc to me but I did understand that he was having some sort of breakdown so that I could then rationalise it and learn how to deal with it for me

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
Nope not done that.  Once I learned about MLC depression - there was no point blaming - it just was what it was

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?
Nope - never had the level of intense resentment or anger except at the very very beginning and especially when OW wrote me a letter three weeks in and when I saw how much H revelled in my anger - I stopped.  I had to - I couldn't continue my profession if I harboured anger. I knew it would destroy me. 

The problem is we can also go too far in compassion and understanding and forget to learn about detachment so that our compassion and understanding comes from a place of detachment where we can continue with our own lives in an emotionally healthy way regardless of the MLCer does. 
 My take
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Online readytofixmyselffirst

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2019, 10:13:43 AM »
Hello,

This is a very interesting debate and has many issues. And for the record, I have not forgiven my ex at this time. My feelings towards her are shifting, but I still hold a lot of emotions that I have been working through slowly.

The first part is this idea of fog. Fog limits one, but doesn't eliminate everything. A person in a fog can still see, but just not well. If you are driving in a car and it is foggy, the rational person slows down and is cautious. The MLCer speeds up.

The issue of the OP, doesn't mean the MLCer doesn't know what they are doing is wrong. If they thought it was right or had no ability to differentiate between right and wrong, they would be open and up front with you in the first place.

"How was your day, honey?"
"Not bad at all, changed Ms. Smiths old light with a new one and she was so thankful that she let me examine her personal plumbing with mine."

That's not how it happens and every person that engages in an affair know they are not doing the right thing. The problem is that it feels right in the moment. It fills a void and the emotional and chemical high creates a new attraction. But it doesn't mean the MLCer doesn't know what they are doing.

For example, two men are starving. One sites in front of a store and begs. The other hits a woman over the head with a stick and takes her sandwich. Starvation justifies the actions of both, but one is going to be punished for his choice. Fog or no fog.

I grew up in a loving household. However, responsibility was big. My mom would tells us that she would never lie for us even if it meant we would go to jail. We had to accept the responsibility for our actions, but she would still love us and visit us in jail.

I love my children, but just like my mom I always tell them that they are responsible for their choices. They own it.

I want to be very clear. My MLCer and I will never get back together. I am in a new commitment and enjoying a healthy relationship with someone who I love and adore.

However, I can still love my MLCer and have compassion for her and the choices she made. The difference is that she is still accountable for her choices and lives her life based on those choices. On my side of the coin, I too am responsible for my choices and how I conduct my life. I definitely did not allow the bad behavior of my MLCer to enable or justify bad behavior on my part.

I've learned a lot of the past decade of my journey and how to be more strategic in how I approach things and training myself to respond as opposed to react. To listen carefully, think, and respond. To let go of proving a point to be right in favor of saying my piece and moving on.

To me, the critical aspect is not to worry about the MLCer. They don't come to our site seeking support. Waiting for the day, "Hello, I am an MLCer. Dumped my husband of 18 years and our three children for a crude and rude OM who is a father to three children with three different women. Please help me. Then laugh my a$$ when OP offers the gift of time.

We support the LBSer in getting their life back. To put in place the systems to first financially protect themselves and their children. To engage in activities that take the eye off the crazy MLCer and focus on themselves. This paves the way to healing and filling the void in a healthy manner.

It may take therapy and legal action to make that happen. Everyone has a different situation and needs to respond accordingly. However, the focus and emotional energy should be spent on us as the LBSer. 

LP stated it is his monkeys; his circus. Yes, but often, we are amused by the monkeys and circus. We become distracted to watch the show and tell everyone what we see rather than focusing on ourselves and what we do.

((((Hugs))) to all

Ready
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2019, 10:26:18 AM »
Nas...anyone blocking you? Their loss. Your honesty, courage and wisdom is invaluable imho.

I was just chatting to another forum member and the phrase that kept coming up for us was about 'bringing reality into the room'. That neither LBS nor MLCer can address their own damage until they do. And our individual defence mechanisms get in the way for quite a while usually.

Imho it is easier for LBS to see their own reality when it carries less emotional residue. And that includes things like blame and judgement...or indeed excuses or denial. Reality has a lot more of 'this is the information I have right now' and a lot more 'I don't know'. And a lot less mind reading hats or assumptions. I don't know why my xh showed no emotional reaction or concern about my life being threatened. I don't know what he thought or felt. I just know what I saw and heard. And what I think is a normal response to something like that by most humans and by someone who shared my life for almost 20 years although it took me a while to trust my own reality bc it was so horrific. But I couldn't deal with it until I looked the reality right in the eye without trying to explain it. Just the facts. And tbh that was hard enough! Now that reality may change if I ever get different information, but right now I can only work from what I see/saw and make my own choices and conclusions based on that.

I believe that anyone recovering from a significant crisis/breakdown needs to bring reality into the room too in order to heal. To reach that simple no BS point that LP described so well that J eventually reached. Where the why's and wherefores and who caused it becomes much less important than this is how it really is and what do I want to do about it. To look at the facts without a pink tutu or a sledgehammer. It is hard as hell for the LBS to get here....it is probably much harder for the MLCer to get here by the nature of the process.

But 'reality in the room' is really the only way to break the cycle for both. The truth in the observable facts without excuse or explanation is hard to excavate sometimes but really can set you free....Jmo.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2019, 10:52:44 AM »
I'm sorry, Nas. Their loss.


Mr J told both OW1 and myself that he knew what he was doing was wrong. That he knew it would hurt me. He knew he had got involved in an affair. He also knew that leave would hurt me, but he was going to because he needed to be happy and now it was about him.


"If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why?" - I'm not, and never did. 
"If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?" - I am not blamming the fog/alien/monster. Those things have an explanation, and serve a purpose, but they are not the reason.
"If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?" - Not sure I understand this question. The blame is on the MLCer. Should the LBS have compassion and understand MLC? Maybe. Maybe not. Each LBS is different. I am not good on compassion and, usually, I feel none towards Mr J. Maybe it a self-protection mechanism.

The LBS did not cause the mess. People don't come to HS because of themselves, but because of their MLCer crisis. It is normal people talk about MLC and their MLCer, since that is what changed their lives.

Asking hard questions, being blunt or concise, that's not necessarily anger yet many here are quick to call it that.

This a million times.

Anger is useful if it drives people foward. Anger becomes a problem if someone gets stuck in it, it becomes self-destructive. I certainly was more productive in certain matters when I was furious. I was also much more tired and depressed.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2019, 10:53:05 AM »

LP stated it is his monkeys; his circus. Yes, but often, we are amused by the monkeys and circus. We become distracted to watch the show and tell everyone what we see rather than focusing on ourselves and what we do.

((((Hugs))) to all

Ready

Wow is that true!  A long time ago I changed that with my mentees a bit.  His circus.  His monkeys.  So why are you trying to clean the cage floor?  When they would keep circling back and staring at the floor show.

Boy I hope people read and take to heart what you wrote.  This experience doesn't have to mean nothing other than a lifetime of pain. 

Bringing reality into the room, very well put.  And exactly what some dislike others for. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2019, 11:24:01 AM »
OK threads unlocked.  I'm not sure what happened.  It could have been me because I'm an absolute technical moron?!!  Or it could be simply I have fat fingers and don't wear my glasses often enough??

Spank me please

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2019, 11:26:33 AM »
Quote
If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why?

I did it at first, like most, because I wanted a clean reentry back. The more I learned about his bipolar diagnosis, the more I could blame it on that. In fact, I thought everyone here was dealing with bipolar mania for awhile (spoiler alert: you're not. Some of you may be? Only a qualified specialist could diagnose your spouse, and only if they were treating them one-on-one). I could relate to bvFTD in that way when she felt so strongly that that's what we were all dealing with. When we can't help our spouses, sometimes it feels so crucial to try to help someone - but that too is part of our "fixer" personas and is usually more about us than them.

Quote
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?

Inability to accept every aspect of the spouse, including their shadow. Cognitive dissonance, once we have a concrete belief about who our spouses are (whether that's who they actually were or that trauma response of idealizing them that some of us know), is one tough cookie.

My xH would say prior to BD that he didn't know what was happening to him. He had a time of awareness after BD2 when he was open to answering questions (before I found this site). He said he knew what he was doing was wrong, but he still felt compelled. The lying, he said, "the more I did it, the easier it got." So I lean with the others that there may be a shadow side coming forward, but they are aware of it, and make choices.

Quote
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 

Anger phase of grief. It's an important pivot point of change and detachment for an LBS. In some ways it mirrors what our spouses did to some of us at BD, in using their anger (unfounded or self-inflicted) to break the bond enough for them to leave. I'm less critical of LBSs with anger because most of us have very valid reasons to be angry. Ultimately it doesn't do us any good to hold onto it, but I think it is also to our detriment to skip it. The only way over it is through. Also, we eventually change our focus to more positive things. Even when standing, if you move your attention from your spouse to other aspects of your life (GAL) that will ultimately help in transforming the rawness of those harsher emotions. Easier said than done!

As I said, I once thought we all had bipolar spouses, because I was so certain in my research. But we as lay people can only work toward understanding our own personal experiences. Even with our spouses, who we feel we knew inside and out, we don't know the inner workings of their minds. xH was my best friend from age 17 forward. Knew things about me that no one else could ever know. But still, he and I are sovereign beings, and I've had to come to accept, even were when we were at our happiest. It takes a huge burden off to shut the door to trying to creep into their minds. I needed to know what I needed to for closure, and in that sense I know what I *accept*, but truly, I will never exactly know. We are not meant to or we would all have been created with ESP. ;) That is my belief anyway.

I like that "nervous breakdown" was brought up, as that phrase, like MLC, is something that is not recognized by the DSM, yet we all have an idea of what it means. I believe that's why MLC will never be there (and I agree, it's a spectrum, that like COPD is an umbrella of many things that like *are* in the DSM). Limerence (the romantic kind, not the MLC stage) is another one that mentally alters a person by such a large change in hormones and neurotransmitters that they make out of character choices, but is not something they'll ever be on disability for. I have an acquaintance that recently had a stroke, and he's already rapidly building new neural pathways in order to heal. I wonder sometimes if some of these cases here where the MLCer "gets stuck" isn't someone whose neural pathways, after the extreme changes in neurotransmitters or hormones due to andro/menopause, have formed anew and helped concrete the new personality. No clue and will probably never have one! But it's interesting, once detached, to see that the very thing I might have feared happen to them in the past, I welcome to happen to me now. Let those new pathways to healing form! For everybody. Question why you fear letting go and letting God. The answers inside of you about your own life are more important.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:35:25 AM by Ready2Transform »
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2019, 11:53:38 AM »
Nervous breakdown as well as burnout are medically accepted and diagnosed here, but those often are diagnosed by a GP, a psychiatrist is not necessary. They are not seen as mental illness, more normal medical issues or neurological issues.

European psychiatrists are sceptical and concerned with DMS-5, Europe tends to use ICD (The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems) that is run by the WHO (World Health Organization).

Over here several things are seen differently. As they also often are in each European and/or EU country. The other thing is that, regardless of where and what manual is, or isn't used, psychiatric diagnoses are not precise, are often wrong and not even the best psychiatrist in the world is capable of knowing certain things for sure.

Psychiatry is very falible and does not have a good success track record. Same for therapy. If surgeons had such low success track record no one would want to have surgery.

As for strokes, like with everything, there are different types and levels. New neural pathways build, but each case is a case. Some are too severe for recovery or recovery that allows for autonomous life. Grandmother had severa big one, the last one, 3 months before she died, with vascular epilepsy, she recoved tiny motor things, like being able to hold her head on the pillow, but that mostly it. Even if she hadn'r died of pulmonary edema she would hardly had been able to have motor function again.

One of my aunts had three stokes and the other one very mild one. Some things were never recoved even if they had the best care.

I think we sometimes think long time MLCers are stuck. I think many of those aren't. It is just that we weren't used to thing of MLC as something that is so long and to people who can endure years on end of Replay.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline OldPilot

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2019, 12:14:35 PM »
I think blocking only works in one direction and the person you block does not even know that you have blocked them.

Offline akjomsviking

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #79 on: July 05, 2019, 01:08:53 PM »
This is the most insightful thread that I've read on this site in a very long time.  Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this topic.  Some of you have discussed this so thoroughly and eloquently!  It is amazing how much self-reflection and personal growth we go through by virtue of being LBS'.

I suspect that one of the biggest hurdles we need to get over is to understand that with the exception of people with legitimate personality disorders - not a huge percentage of the population btw - people who do "wrong" things know they are wrong while they are doing them.  I have a bit of insight into this and I suspect lp does as well because of her profession.  For me it's not for such a noble reason.  I have not always been the man that I am today.  I lived for a long time being very casual with the law and because of that I've known a few criminals and unsavory types.  Most of them know they are doing something wrong, but all of them have very convincing reasons why they do it anyways.  That's been almost universally true in my experience. 

Do you think the man breaking into your house while you're at work doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong?  Do you think he didn't have a bad childhood, perhaps suffer some trauma or abuse, and also see authority figures in his youth breaking the law?  Of course he did.  There are exceptions but nearly everyone I knew while I was living that way had what you could describe as a bad childhood.  That doesn't mean anything to me and it's no justification for anything.  Because I've also known LOTS of people with bad childhoods who would never hurt a fly or break a law.

My MLC wife knew what she was doing.  She wasn't taken over by aliens or some kind of mind-control device.  Yes there were moments of clarity and she would break down and tell me she didn't know why she was behaving that way.  But the OM knew she was married, knew she had kids, and she intentionally and publicly dated this guy and brought my little girls around him for months.  She simultaneously had the wherewithal to hold down a job and keep up her health and spend thousands of dollars on hobbies and trips.  She went to months of therapy sessions with me (all on my dime naturally) where she expressed confusion and claimed she was trying to sort herself out.  It was very frustrating for me because I have known lots of people like that.  They know they are hurting you, they know what they are doing is wrong, but they are going to do it anyways.  It's hard for some of you to understand because (I suspect) you are not that way.

I wouldn't wish an MLC on anyone.  It is obviously painful and destructive.  But let me tell you my sympathy only goes so far because for us LBS' there is a LOT of pain and destruction.  The only difference is that we don't have a bunch of cheerleaders around us shouting Yaaassss queen!!  and telling us that "As long as you're happy..." like that's the end-all be-all of life when you have a home and a family.  She still hasn't suffered any significant social or financial backlash from what happened.  I suspect the fact that MLC'ers can get away with what they do with so little repercussions is one of the reasons this event is so common.  I bet there weren't a lot of MLC's when our great-grandparents were settling the country.
2 Children
1st BD: May 2013
Reconciled Sept 2013
2nd BD: Oct 2015
Separation: Nov 2016
Dissolution: March 2017

Offline stayed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #80 on: July 05, 2019, 01:25:40 PM »
Quote

The problem is we can also go too far in compassion and understanding and forget to learn about detachment so that our compassion and understanding comes from a place of detachment where we can continue with our own lives in an emotionally healthy way regardless of the MLCer does. 
 My take

I so agree with this statement.  There is a happy medium for sure, enough compassion to prevent yourself from becoming hateful and bitter.  Enough understanding that you recognize and accept, "not your monkey"!  Detached enough that you are still able to enjoy your life without becoming cold and disinterested in everything and everybody. 


Nas, I am "shocked" that anybody would block you.  I've never seen you say a single thing that was cruel or unkind.... wow!  I'm thinking anybody who blocks you, has got some issues of their own that they seriously need to take care of.  Intense therapy might help.

Hugs Stayed
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Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #81 on: July 05, 2019, 02:55:11 PM »
Interesting topics on this thread.

I truly believe the MLCer knows what they are doing and does it anyway.
My xh went to marriage counseling 3 times.  Each time he said in front of the therapist -
"I am purposely cruel and cold so Airmid does't hold any hope for our marriage."

Well ladies and gentlemen - it certainly doesn't get any clearer than that.
But lets fast forward a bit from that time and the Ostrich denies that he ever said that - despite the fact there was an objective witness.

Is it the fog?  Wow - that must be some weather pattern.
No, I think it is simply easier to feign amnesia.

On my part - I was blinded by my love for my then H and was firmly in denial.

I was scared out of my wits how I was going to survive as a single woman on one salary in one of the most expensive cities in the US.
Like many wives, I had depended on my H to take care of things like mechanical issues related to the car, the houses etc.
I could not see any life or possibility of happiness outside my then 20 year relationship.
And I certainly didn't want to face the fact that the man I loved so deeply was no longer in love with me.

So it was easier for me to cling to the hope that this abandonment was temporary - and he would come to his senses.
I didn't have to wonder why my H "suddenly" no longer loved me - it was the invasion of the body snatchers - aka - MLC.
I didn't have to fathom how I would build a life on my own - because surely my H was going to come home once he realized his mistake.

All of that was my denial of the truth. 
And the longer I could remain in denial - the longer I could hide from the reality of needing to rebuild my life.

In hindsight - the BD that seemed so sudden and out of the blue - had been brewing for a long time. But my xH kept it well hidden from me and all friends and family.
My H had fallen out of love with me and fallen in love with the alienator.
I suspect that the OW gave xH an ultimatum - something like - "dump your wife or we are over."
He did and said the horrible things so he could be freed of our relationship and be with the parasite.

Then - even after I accepted that he was gone - and not going to return - I had yet another fantasy...
He must be miserable and suffering in his new life.

There is no evidence that my xH is miserable and/or suffering.
And if the only way I can be happy is to monkey brain some misery in his yard - then my happiness is rather precarious.

Dropping the rope means just that - let go entirely.
This person has chosen someone else - and made it clear he didn't want me as his wife.
I dropped the rope - walked away from the rope - and built a new life.
I don't need to waste anymore time on wondering ---

"was his love real or not""
"does he have remorse?"
"when did his MLC (or affair) start?"

After your spouse pulls the trigger and you are divorced - its over.
If you have kids - then you will have to deal with the spouse who abandoned you for some time in the future.
But if you are like me - with no kids - you can close the door - lock the door and walk away.
It was hard work - it was at times painful - but frankly I don't see any other alternative.

Offline Velika

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2019, 02:57:45 PM »
A note that I think anyone who faces this should look at family history.

To LP's point, it may be that the MLCer can recognize down the road that they were manic. Many of us also recognize within a few weeks or months that they are manic!

If you have children, and know of a strong family history, and your spouse is demonstrating clear signs of mania, I really encourage you to keep attempting to get a doctor, psychiatrist, coparenting counselor, lawyer, or some other advocate to help you protect your kids. Please, if no one is believing you, keep trying.

One thing I think this takes away is our ability to trust ourselves. Many MLCers treat us with such shocking cruelty and disregard (and rewriting history) that it's hard to trust ourselves or to assert ourselves in a way that makes the best use of our true power.

I feel that many well meaning people on this forum dissuade some LBS from doing what the LBS feels on a deep intuitive level they should do, based on their own experience. I feel this can be very damaging in the long run. Many people on this forum are just as vulnerable to your advice and authority as they are to the crazy words of their own spouse!

Really consider what you are saying if you are telling a stranger online with very different life circumstance not to seek help or support. You may privately disagree or feel dubious, but I think in some cases this is vitally important to strike while the iron is hot. My ex husband was extremely manic, openly dating a sex worker, while our son was a first grader. He would randomly show up and abusively take our son from me, sometimes not even telling me their whereabouts and ordering me around.

Had I been insistent in the beginning and hired a P.I., I would have done more to protect our son, myself, and possibly been able to enlist the help of some family members and almost certainly a coparenting counselor instead of facing this all on my own as a "divorce."

If your spouse has a family history of this, that is your answer. That is your trajectory. Have relatives recovered? Do they decline over a period of a decade? Do they develop other symptoms? That is the likely outcome.

Many people post-mania tip into a more spaced out type of "lobotomized" state, where they are functional but just not the same person. I think this is the phase where they may have foggy notions they messed up, but not the type of bipolar crash that would lead to more accountability.

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2019, 03:45:17 PM »
I suspect that one of the biggest hurdles we need to get over is to understand that with the exception of people with legitimate personality disorders - not a huge percentage of the population btw - people who do "wrong" things know they are wrong while they are doing them. 

People with mood disorders like schizophrenia or bipolar also do not know what they are doing when on a high and/or having psychotic episodes or during the very dark low period. People with Alzeimer's and other dementias do not know what they are doing is wrong, same for people with certain other brain issues or even hormonal issues. However, people with a medical diagnosed illness have a medical diagnosed illness that allows them to not be accountable for certain things/during certain periods.

I think MLC is an illness, in essence it is depression + anxiety + stress, solve those, no MLC, but MLCers do not have a medical diagnose for MLC, so they cannot use it for any legal or medical purpose. Nor to escape responsability.

In my country addiction is an illness, but addicts do not get away with everything. It is recognised drugs affect brain thinking and the person may do things they would not do otherwise.

It's hard for some of you to understand because (I suspect) you are not that way.

It would had been hard for our pre-MLC spouses to understand. They were not that way. Some of us had a MLC, we were that way while in MLC. Or not, depending of what type of MLC we had. Mine was not like Mr J's or many other MLCers.

But let me tell you my sympathy only goes so far because for us LBS' there is a LOT of pain and destruction.

Yep. I have far more empathy and sympathy for the LBS than for the MLCers. MLCers tend to be fine in every way after their crisis is over, the LBS often not so much. Yet, often, LBS have far more compassion and care for MLCers than for themselves of fellow LBS. It wasn't the LBS that destroyed everything, it was the MLCer. 

"I am purposely cruel and cold so Airmid does't hold any hope for our marriage."

MLC script to a T. In the articles both RCR and HB mention some MLCers are cruel/mean on purpose to make the LBS go away.
Not all MLCers are like that, but some are.



I didn’t think that there was anything wrong but my ex h kept insisting I was going mad and he had no problem telling people that. He also insisted I go to the doctor which I did wearing my sunglasses!
I lied to the doctor and he thought I was just grieving my Father. He prescribed AD’s which I didn’t take as I didn’t think there was anything wrong with me.


Straight from the horse's mouth. How many more former MLCers need to say they know what they are doing? That they lie to doctors, therapist, lawyers, etc? Granted, there may be some MLCer who don't have a clue about what they are doing, but...

Even if I had one, I wouldn't wish a MLC upon my worst enemy. It is an horrible thing to have. It does not mean the MLCer is not responsible and is in the wrong.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 03:55:12 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #84 on: July 05, 2019, 04:03:35 PM »
I believe this is pretty much what Shocks sister said.

"In the articles both RCR and HB mention "SOME" MLCer's are cruel/mean on purpose to make the LBS go away."  (That means not all).  Mine never was.

The LBS doesn't fit into their fantasy.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:15:54 PM by Thunder »
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Nerissa

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #85 on: July 05, 2019, 04:15:59 PM »
So much helpful discussion here.  It can be hard to know what to say - people can only hear what they are ready to hear when in pain and need to be met ‘where they are’ yet  platitudes which comfort can also be unhelpful in some ways.

 I was struck a while ago by a thread where Anon commented that her therapist, whom I believe she trusts, had said that spouses generally don’t return unless their new life doesn’t measure up to their fantasy.  UM contributed that his mother, a clinical Psychologist, concurred.  There isn’t some wonderful awakening - just an acknowledgment - often shame based and sullen - that the old Life is what they are going to settle for.

Their posts were followed by a brief flurry of posts disagreeing and asserting that most would return eventually , but it would be after a long time and maybe too late. 

I felt the same wish  for a long time, but reading this thread, I felt sad that in our pain, we are in our own cognitive dissonance, disagreeing with experienced professionals who witness this regularly and know the likely outcome.  .  I often read comments to the effect that we understand mlc, whereas people in real life don’t.

I don’t think that is true.  I think we are often more ready than people ‘irl’ to find compassion and look for reasons and are more prepared to wait.  If that is necessary to sustain us through the shocking experience then it is all to the good.  But it isn’t morally superior to wait, or somehow more ‘knowing’ which is sometimes the impression I get.  Sometimes it just wastes time and love that could be used on those who would appreciate it and reciprocate - our families and friends - is wasted on someone who doesn’t. I heard a psychologist say that 90% of our energy in these cases is used on our most dysfunctional Relationship and 10% on our other, better relationships.

As LP mentioned, focusing on mlc is almost certainly to the detriment of children.  A therapist specialising in adolescents told me that the drawn out nature of waiting increases the pain for young people who need to separate their concept of their parents in their psyche.  He said that even into adulthood, they will entertain unconscious fantasies of their parents reuniting and so he encourages civility but also clear separation to help the child complete their mourning as well as possible.
 .
The veracity of this was  illustrated for me twice that very week, when a training film I saw showed an engineer of 31 telling a trauma specialist that he still sometimes hoped his parents, divorced since he was ten, would reunite..   and in the same week, a fellow student in his thirties spoke of his parents, divorced for 17 years. His older sister was convinced they were seeing each other again after the death of one of his two sisters.   He had blurted out to his father “You know you’re never getting back together with Mum don’t you?”   It seemed such a cry of hurt.

I don’t know where I’m going with this, except to say that I believe there is such a world of serious hurt caused by the mlc unconscious behaviour, and so little care and concern for those damaged, ( how many go into  serious therapy to truly understand what happened and face up to and  repair what they have done to their children?) especially children, that unfair  as it is, We have to get the best, most realistic advice we can for our own health and that of our families, and, when we are strong enough, act upon it, instead of existing in our own fantasy lives longer than is necessary.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:35:22 PM by Nerissa »

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2019, 04:36:40 PM »
I think blocking only works in one direction and the person you block does not even know that you have blocked them.

Not to derail this thread, but if you are signed up to be notified of a new post on a thread and someone who has blocked you posts on that thread, you will not be notified. Therefore, you can find out you’ve been blocked when you get notified  that someone who hasn’t blocked you has posted and when you go back back to the thread, you see you’ve missed a posts (or posts) that you were not notified about from the people who blocked you.
 I know this for absolute fact because I do know one person who made it clear to me that they blocked me and that is what happens when they post on any thread that I am also signed up for notifications on.

Anyway, back to this very interesting and helpful discussion…
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #87 on: July 05, 2019, 04:50:23 PM »
I was struck a while ago by a thread where Anon commented that her therapist, whom I believe she trusts, had said that spouses generally don’t return unless their new life doesn’t measure up to their fantasy.  UM contributed that his mother, a clinical Psychologist, concurred. 

I was in therapy very shortly after BD.  I had two therapists -
a woman and a man.

I asked both of them if they thought that there was any possibility that my H would return and we could reconcile. 
I got the same answer from both of them - very unlikely.
They also answered that the spouses usually don't even attempt a return.

Both of them asked me - independent of each other -
"Do you really want to be the "fall back position? IS it acceptable to you that your spouse would only want you if he could not succeed with this other woman?"
I told them each of the Hero Spouse forum. 
I said the people who post there seem to have different conclusions.
Hero Spouse forum members seem to feel a return in inevitable.

They both firmly believed that this was not a realistic expectation.
So I had to ask myself -
Do I trust the experience of trained professionals - who have seen thousands of clients?
Or do I trust the people on a forum who have been abandoned in the same way I have?

I wanted to believe that a reconciliation was possible.
So I disregarded what was told to me by my therapists -
and desperately hoped for my marriage to survive.

But in then end - my conclusion is - the therapists were correct in the assertion that very few spouses return. 
There are a few who reconcile-
just as there are a few people who beat pancreatic cancer. 
There are a few people who hit the lottery jackpot. 
But the general trend does not seem to support that a reconciliation, or even an attempted return should be the expected norm.





Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #88 on: July 05, 2019, 04:56:33 PM »
I was struck a while ago by a thread where Anon commented that her therapist, whom I believe she trusts, had said that spouses generally don’t return unless their new life doesn’t measure up to their fantasy.

Does life ever measures up to a fantasy?

In a way, it could be said Mr J's MLC measured up to the fantasy, yet, he has complained about it big time to me, to my lawyer, to his lawyer. At times he even complains in public - he has a public life. And, in his very strage way, he has more than often tried to come close.

The problem is I have no interest in interacting or going out (yes, he would be up to it) with a man in Replay who is only interested in his MLC lifestyle. OW1 and OW2 are gone for the same reason, his MLC life is more imporatant than any woman, even the woman the shouts to the world is the person he loves the most on earth = OW2.

As for therapist, aside from those with certain specific types of practical therapy, my faith in them is very, very low. I would took anything they say, even a clinical psychologist, with a grain of salt. No, I am not saying our MCLers are going to return, just that therapist are not someone whose word I would take for measure.

Funny, with me it was a person from real life, a former MLCer, who told me Mr J was having a bumpy, would come out of it and would return. Mr J himself said the same early on, by now he has probably long forgot it.

I happen to think most MLCers come out of MLC and want back, but that there will be very few reconciliations because MLC causes too much damage and most LBS have long moved on.

So far, HS and real life support my thinking.


Interesting, Air. Why? Because even LP's MLCer has been wanting back. He was nastier than nasty, their divorce was ugly, he wouldn't mind being back.

There are few that reconcile, but it has to do with the LBS. Would you reconcile with your ex if he come knocking on the door tomorrow?


Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2019, 04:58:12 PM »

 The only difference is that we don't have a bunch of cheerleaders around us shouting Yaaassss queen!! 

a) this made me legitimately laugh for the first time in a long time.  So thank you.

b) I agree with your entire post. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline beyondblessed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2019, 05:06:50 PM »
I'm not back here very often, but came across this thread while updating my own.  To even have to wonder whether those in crisis know what they are doing is totally incomprehensible to me.  Think about the words Bomb Drop.... something completely out of the blue, unknown and unexpected at the time of delivery.... at least to the recipient.  Now, think of the Bomber and just how long this event was planned and thought about beforehand.  Irrational thinking doesn't render a person incapacitated.  It just gives them more leeway towards making stupid choices.

I really believe, like Stayed, it all started innocently enough, with each tryst becoming more exciting and enticing, until finally they get caught too deep in the quicksand to escape.  That's when the real panic of being found out ramps up series after series of rash choices that ultimately build to the bomb drop of epic proportions.

After they choose to leave (and almost always run to the AP who's been there all along) that is when it should all become about the LBS taking back their power.  You cannot both play the victim and expect any of the dynamic to change.  Someone has to be the voice of reason and move out of that toxic space, and it sure ain't gonna be the MLC'er because they lack the strength and clarity.  And, if the LBS doesn't learn to drop that rope, they run the dire risk of staying in a state of cycling and monkey braining that prevents them, too, from ascertaining any sort of bearings or clarity.  That's is a huge reason why we are all told to "put on our own oxygen mask" first.  As difficult as it is in the aftermath of BD, the best chance the LBS has is to take the emotion out of all dealings and use a business approach, especially if a D is filed very early on.  It hurts, it sucks, it isn't fair, but it is life.  It doesn't have to make sense to us because it isn't OUR decision, it is our response to their choice.  What is chaos to the fly, is perfectly normal to the spider.

So, it really does no good to assess blame either way.  It is what it is, and nothing will change it.  The best we can do is live our remaining days learning, growing, and continuing to be our best possible selves.  Life after this will only be as good as the LBS chooses to make it.  The MLC'er may have dealt the cards, but that doesn't mean that the LBS can't play those cards and drop all aces.

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2019, 05:08:56 PM »


After your spouse pulls the trigger and you are divorced - its over.


Often even if they don't pull the trigger, as in my case - it's over. 
There's no one holding a gun to his head.
There's no complicated legal hurdles impeding his way.
He CHOSE to erase his past rather than legally leaving it behind, but he's no different than the ones who divorce.  Except even more cowardly.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 05:34:18 PM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2019, 05:20:33 PM »
I agree with you Nas - I agree with you 100%

Offline Velika

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2019, 05:23:31 PM »
There are two questions I see coming up over and over on these threads, and while some people say it doesn't matter, I really think it does especially if you have young children.

1. Will they return?

I think it is absolutely unlikely that they will return and most people are far better off filing for divorce right away. If they are sorry and want to return, you will have protected yourself. I feel the #1 message of any forum addressing this should be to take specific self-protective legal and financial measures and outline them specifically for a traumatized person in deep state of shock. 

2. Are they sick?*

I think this question does matter a lot for people with small children, because it affects how they might proceed. I think this can ranged from nuanced to actually quite obvious, and for this reason I don't think it is correct for people to make this call for others.

Some of the cases here really are probably bipolar or another neurological event. Also, to the point that therapists will tell you they see this all the time, that is correct. This is what drives people to therapists' offices all the time.

However, I will note that I talked to many many therapists when this started, and also many medical professionals. There was a clear and categorical split. Every single doctor told me this was a mental illness or neurological. It took a long time before my own therapist started to see that this wasn't a normal situation. This wasn't because of what I was telling him. It had to do with the limits of his training.

In fact, when I sought advice on another support forum, I heard from many, many people who were well educated on bipolar, who told me that many therapists are not trained to spot mental illness. Even psychiatrists do not scan the brain.

While this may leave an LBS in a difficult position of finding many mental illness that could fit the bill, the truth is even a top hospital would have to do a lot of differential diagnosis as well. If you suspect your spouse is mentally ill — especially if there is a family history of mental illness — please, please do not be dissuaded from trying to seek help and protect your children, even if you are hearing things on this forum like:

• MLC sounds like every illness in the book.
• MLCers know what they are doing, but just don't care.
• It doesn't matter if they are sick or not.
• Even if they are sick, contacting a doctor won't help.

It matters a lot of someone is sick and is responsible for parenting a young child. Don't think that just because you arrived at a MLC forum that this rules out other avenues of inquiry. Trust your parental instincts! Look at the family history.

*Sometimes phrased as: Do they know what they are doing?


Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #94 on: July 05, 2019, 05:26:55 PM »
So much helpful discussion here.  It can be hard to know what to say - people can only hear what they are ready to hear when in pain and need to be met ‘where they are’ yet  platitudes which comfort can also be unhelpful in some ways.

 I was struck a while ago by a thread where Anon commented that her therapist, whom I believe she trusts, had said that spouses generally don’t return unless their new life doesn’t measure up to their fantasy.  UM contributed that his mother, a clinical Psychologist, concurred.  There isn’t some wonderful awakening - just an acknowledgment - often shame based and sullen - that the old Life is what they are going to settle for.

Their posts were followed by a brief flurry of posts disagreeing and asserting that most would return eventually , but it would be after a long time and maybe too late. 

I felt the same wish  for a long time, but reading this thread, I felt sad that in our pain, we are in our own cognitive dissonance, disagreeing with experienced professionals who witness this regularly and know the likely outcome.  .  I often read comments to the effect that we understand mlc, whereas people in real life don’t.

I don’t think that is true.
I think we are often more ready than people ‘irl’ to find compassion and look for reasons and are more prepared to wait.  If that is necessary to sustain us through the shocking experience then it is all to the good.  But it isn’t morally superior to wait, or somehow more ‘knowing’ which is sometimes the impression I get.  Sometimes it just wastes time and love that could be used on those who would appreciate it and reciprocate - our families and friends - is wasted on someone who doesn’t. I heard a psychologist say that 90% of our energy in these cases is used on our most dysfunctional Relationship and 10% on our other, better relationships.

As LP mentioned, focusing on mlc is almost certainly to the detriment of children.  A therapist specialising in adolescents told me that the drawn out nature of waiting increases the pain for young people who need to separate their concept of their parents in their psyche.  He said that even into adulthood, they will entertain unconscious fantasies of their parents reuniting and so he encourages civility but also clear separation to help the child complete their mourning as well as possible.
 .
The veracity of this was  illustrated for me twice that very week, when a training film I saw showed an engineer of 31 telling a trauma specialist that he still sometimes hoped his parents, divorced since he was ten, would reunite..   and in the same week, a fellow student in his thirties spoke of his parents, divorced for 17 years. His older sister was convinced they were seeing each other again after the death of one of his two sisters.   He had blurted out to his father “You know you’re never getting back together with Mum don’t you?”   It seemed such a cry of hurt.

I don’t know where I’m going with this, except to say that I believe there is such a world of serious hurt caused by the mlc unconscious behaviour, and so little care and concern for those damaged, ( how many go into  serious therapy to truly understand what happened and face up to and  repair what they have done to their children?) especially children, that unfair  as it is, We have to get the best, most realistic advice we can for our own health and that of our families, and, when we are strong enough, act upon it, instead of existing in our own fantasy lives longer than is necessary.

Nerissa, I always appreciate your posts so much.  You say things I think only can't often express.

As far as the 90% of our energy wasted on our most dysfunctional relationships,
If I could tell you lovely people one thing I have learned since my cancer diagnosis, it's take that 90% of your time and focus it on yourself.  Don't waste time because none of us really have any idea how much of it we really have. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Acorn

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #95 on: July 05, 2019, 05:31:41 PM »
Velika, I appreciate what you are saying.
Do you think it might be worthwhile for you to start a new discussion thread on the particular topic you have just outlined?

Maybe even 2 threads!  ;D
 
- Will they return?
- Are they sick?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 05:34:25 PM by Acorn »
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Offline Velika

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #96 on: July 05, 2019, 05:33:06 PM »
Velika, I appreciate what you are saying.
Do you think it might be worthwhile for you to start a new discussion thread on the particular topic you have just outlined?

No, it's fine! I have said this many times. I'm trying to look out for other newly arrived parents. Thank you!

Offline Thunder

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2019, 05:46:35 PM »
I can not tell you how much of what Airmid has said I agree with. Like all of it.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2019, 05:47:35 PM »
Depending of where you live, knowing who is responsible for the break/end of the marriage is legally and financially important.

My country no longer has fault divorce, but for a court divorce it is still necessary to prove who is responsible. Adultery has been deemed damaging by our Supreme Court and an adulterous spouse will have to pay the other spouse, if said spouse so wants, regardless of divorce or no divorce.

Therefore, at least in some places, legally, there are difference between being, or not being responsible.

Well, Nas, I get it. However, unless before MLC the relationship was already dysfunctional, people waste energy with it because it is the most important relationship of their lives. Some move from their personal situation and want to know and learn more about MLC. If no one wanted to know or learn more about MLC HS would not exist.

I agree we must focus on ourselves, but I can also see why people want to know more. For some of us MLC lead us to study several subjects, from mental illness to neurobiology/neuroscience, moving much further than MLC.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2019, 07:11:36 PM »
I think it was Terrified in Tennessee who a few times discussed that he felt he was (I'm not remembering the English word or colloquialism) something along the lines of fooled or deceived but couched a bit more politely when he came here.  He thought the forum needed to be more direct and honest in its presentation as to probability of return and the time frame and the process.  He was answered with choruses of No's, we can't do that, it would scare away the newbies.

Now we are having this conversation.  Time changes many things and the pendulum swings the other direction. 

To put it on the line:

I was a mod here and stepped down fir several reasons including because i don't agree with several of the tenets of the site as implemented.

I don't agree with the advice to let the MLCer own the divorce.  It's a recipe for disaster in nearly every case.

I am much closer to TNT that I think it's easy to play on the emotions of very desperate and sick and scared people feeding them hope and promises of return instead of focusing on rebuilding the LBS. That's not healthy. 

There's too much focus on the pain rather than how to move forward.  LBS's have too much to do to waste time sitting on here all day wasting the limited time we are given.  If I could go back in time I wouldn't spend more than a few months getting it together and walk away from this forum.  That's another reason I rarely post.  It's too easy to spend hour after hour here not focusing on what really matters which is creating a new life, taking care to love one's self, focusing on one's children and achieving goals  and embracing the new reality.

I agree as well with the poster who said he felt standing actions hold back healing.  In most cases I think that's correct. 

Finally, I am dismayed by the effects standing seems to have on the children.

Yes, my husband would like to return.  However, I don't believe that has much explanatory value.  He's one.  And a bigger train wreck one couldn't find.  The reality is he wants to return because he failed spectacularly in the real world.  He now has nothing, not even the little girl who dumped him when she didn't need him anymore and is pregnant and to be married in the fall to the father of her baby.  He doesn't want to return because he loves me.  I'm the second best safety option life preserver. 

And that's not good enough by far for me.  And it never was.  Technically, yes I got to make the choice in the end.  In reality it was no choice.  (And that's not what newbies are told when they get here. ) He was gone at bomb drop officially but gone in reality before that.  I couldn't save the marriage by myself.  The only choice I had to make was to sit and wallow or embrace building a new life.  That's the only choice that matters in the end.  Not whether or not these people come back.  Not who is at fault or how to apportion fault.  Yes Hearts Blessing used to say when there is love there is hope.  But even she admits love won't always be enough and counsels looking at reality.

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2019, 07:17:21 PM »
 
Quote
I am dismayed by the effects standing seems to have on the children.

I disagree 100% with this "statement".

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.

There is no proof for this statement at all.

I know many standers whose children are doing very well...maybe because their LBS parent isn't running off on dates and bringing "new fathers/mothers" into their lives.

It is not right for you to continue to say this about the children of standers.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

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Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #101 on: July 05, 2019, 07:52:26 PM »
XYZCF, once again.  I'm not having a thread war with you.  It's my business what dismays me.  I don't have to justify my opinions to you.  You can disagree all you want but it's not up to you to determine if my thoughts are right or wrong.

Second I said seems.  I'm not asserting fact although if you want independent more science based proof refer to the post by Nerissa.

Third, I believe the actions of parents impact children. It's the LBS who has to make a safe environment for the child.  Thundarr said it himself.  He wishes he'd have had his focus on the children more squarely rather than focusing on standing.  That's a fact. 

Fourth with you when you have nothing else to say you revert to unnamed legions to support your argument.  Unnamed numbers who have reconciled.  Unnamed numbers who's children are fine.  Where's your proof of these unnamed people?  I can only have feelings as related to posts I read on this forum. 

Now I'm done with you and these daily complaints.  You gripe at no one but me yet other posters have said much more.  Why is that?  The holiday weekend will be over soon and I'll be too busy having a life to post and you can safely go back to the status quo on here you enjoy.  But for one weekend the Emporer Has No Clothes and these people have had a chance to express themselves. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Nerissa

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #102 on: July 05, 2019, 07:54:32 PM »
Quote
I am dismayed by the effects standing seems to have on the children.

I disagree 100% with this "statement".

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.

There is no proof for this statement at all.

I know many standers whose children are doing very well...maybe because their LBS parent isn't running off on dates and bringing "new fathers/mothers" into their lives.

It is not right for you to continue to say this about the children of standers.

Of
Course it is the breaking of the family that damages.   But you are a mother and a nurse,. When  we read some of the stories where the mlc spouse is taking up so much of the loyal parents emotional and often financial resources, we have to admit that a lot of the time, healing would be over quicker if we did not stand.

Add to that the psychological evidence of the effects of ambiguous/ incomplete
Mourning of the child whose parents might or might not reconcile.... I think we have to recognise that standing is not ultimately good for the children in most cases.  Mine certainly became concerned about my autonomy and self respect and even my younger one (a teenager). requested certainty rather than ambiguity after a while.

If detachment is achieved then maybe it’s different and the role model provided is better because it’s strong no matter the marital Status.    I’m not proud of the model I  provided for the vibrant young women who are my daughters for rather too long.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 07:59:32 PM by Nerissa »

Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #103 on: July 05, 2019, 07:57:54 PM »
I want to elaborate on LP's xH.

He lost everything.  And I mean everything.
Not just the little girl - that was icing on the cake.
He was a medical doctor, with an active military career.
He was teaching at the university.

This is what he lost in the MLC mess.
He lost his medical license - due I believe to his physical assault charges.
He lost his military position - including his pension - due to a dishonorable discharge.
He lost his money - by burning through his savings as only a MLCer can.
He lost his teaching position - because he had to follow the little girl around from university to university while she took 5-6 years to finish her PhD.

So now he is a old haggard looking burned out MLCer.
Probably still mentally off the tracks.
No money, no career, no retirement.
And as LP says - his wish to return has nothing to do with feeling love for LP -
its just he feels LP owes him a soft nest to land in.

This is not having a choice - unless you think picking up the wreck thats left and spending the rest of your life with a dysfunctional person is a choice you would like to have.

Certainly not what most people would envision as a desirable return.

Newbies pounce on the fact that LPs H wanted to return.
But as many xH's that want to return - there are dozens of LBSers who have never had their Hs or Ws express a desire to return.

Mine has never expressed this desire to return.
I can list tons of LBSers on this site - many are moderators.
Mitzpah, Old Pilot, Bailmore, Medusa, Ursa Major, Superman, Limitless.. and the list goes on.
Then I know of the many many people who were in my time frame -
Nah, MsT, Blindsided13, Antimatter, MeNow, and the list goes on.

Why do I bother to mention this?
For me - at this point in my journey - it doesn't matter anymore if my xH wants to return - I have moved on.
But I am upset when I see newbies get on this site and cling to the MLC timeline.

How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

They are clinging to hope - and dare I say false hope - false in the sense that they think a return is likely.
And then later - sometimes much later- years later - they express that they wish posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of a return was.

Returns are possible - but they are not the norm - and so I agree with LP - that it not serving a newbie well to concentrate on the hope of a return.  Instead the focus should be on rebuilding the life of the LBSer. 

Older posters have the experience to find the "exit door" our of the hell after BD.
Instead of endless reiterations about what a MLCer does/thinks/believes would it not be better to cut short that discussion with a newbie and focus them on self-care?

Some posters like MsT got on that road pretty quickly.
She was in sheer hell with that MLCer threatening her physically and financially.
She dropped the rope quickly because she didn't have the resources to sit and be "thinky"

She was a stay at home mom with 3 young children.
She got out of the MLCers home - she retrained and got a great job in a medical office.
She did so well they promoted her several times - and then she followed her dreams and opened a yoga studio and is doing very nicely for herself.

She is healed.  And I don't think her xH is much on her mind at all.
She is one example of success - and she had a lot less resources than many on here.
Her healing had very little to do with understanding where her MLCers headspace was - it had a lot to do with personal achievements.












Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #104 on: July 05, 2019, 08:08:47 PM »
As you are entitled to your "opinion" I too am entitled.

There is NO evidence that standing causes more damage than not standing to our children.

Perhaps you do not understand what standing means. It is a personal decision based upon values and beliefs that we share with our children, ones that are supported by many religious groups.

As for the people I know who are standers, they don't post here because they do not feel supported in their views.

Your comments are hurtful to standers who like every other LBSer are doing what they feel is right for their families.

Your comments put blame on mothers and fathers who are faithful to their marriages, accusing standers of failing their children.

I guess we should all just go find other partners to be with so we don't damage our children according to your standards
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #105 on: July 05, 2019, 08:19:19 PM »
I haven't changed my mind on most MLCers coming out of crisis and of those most wanting to return, but I also haven't changed my mind on most will never reconcile.

All the married/partnered high energy real life MLCers I know, and I know a few, whose crisis is over wanted back. I don't know a single one who was taken back.

For the ones still in crisis, will see.


Yes, my husband would like to return.  However, I don't believe that has much explanatory value.  He's one

I know your husband is just one case. But it used to be said that nasty, physically violent MLCers would never dare to contact the LBS or want back. It also used to be said that a nasty divorce and/or cut contact with the MLCer would scare the MLCer and prevent them from wanting to return.

I never believe any of those things would prevent a MLCer from wanting to return. I see it more as those things leading the LBS not to want the MLCer back, which tends to be true.


MLCers are usually gone before BD. MLC does not start with BD or Replay. LBS only tend to see things when Replay is already rolling, but MCL started before. I don't think any of us could have saved the marriage. It takes two to tango. There are some "experts" that thing a marriage can be saved by just one spouse and even "teach" how to do so, but I think it is not possible.

There are no stats. And we can't even just go with those who keep posting on HS. Several former HS members are reconnecting or reconciling and no longer posting.

As far as I am concerned, love is not enough. It is when applied to children and, in my case, my grandmothers. For others, love is enough. To each, each own.


TNT used to be quite angry and hurt and in distress and is one of those LBS who jumped into a new relatiomship pretty much straight away without proper time of alone personal healing. I don't think he was ever fooled or deceived, he somehow thought MLC lasted a few months or so and was expecting a magic change in his wife pretty quickly and a fast return.

If there is one mantra used on HS is MCL takes time. Not, it will soon be over and your MLCer will be back in six months (that is the mantra of many sites dedicated to MLC, six months to two years, maybe three tops for the whole crisis. Right.  ::) )

I don't know how people can complain and feel cheated. RCR has it clear in the articles, standing does not mean the MLCer will want to return, a MLCer wanting to return does not equal reconciliation and all other variables. Several of us used to be very blunt. To the point we got grief for it.

Maybe people no longer read the articles, blog posts and all the other resources on HS. Maybe when in pain or in early on LBS do not read/listen to more blunt things, then say they were not warned.

As for children, in my view, a LBS who has children first duty is to the children. Not to standing, marriage or MLCer. Also, I don't think people have to, or even should, tell the children they are standing. It is not the children's business. Who burdens children with their standing?

The children now the other parent left and is often living with someone else. They don't need the LBS to be telling them, oh mum/dad is standing and waiting for dad/mum to come out of MLC.

It is one thing to be civil to the MLCer, as it would be in any other divorce or separation situation. The LBS and MLCer who have children will have to interact. It is another to place standing on the shoulders of children.

---

Air, some MLCers lost nothing and want back. I don't think it makes a difference it they lost, or didn't lost it all. Acorn's husband didn't lost it all, far from it, RCR's  one didn't lost it all, same for several others. They are back.

There are dozens of LBS who never heard their MLCer say they wanted to return, but years ago none of us have heard LP's husband saying he wanted to return. Years ago LP was one of those LBS. There are also many who have MLCers that want to return, then they don't, then they do.

Mitzpah's husband leads a semi-life with her. Or used to. Always in the house, using the house pool, etc. and always remained close to her.

MeNow, as far I can remember, was having a MLC himself. Several of those you mentioned have long stop posting and for those you mentioned a list of people whose MCLer has expressed they wanted to return, or come and go could be made. Heck, even Mr J would "return" if I was willing to lead the crazy MLC and let him have OW if he felt like it.

Mr J didn't vanish of his own free will, I cut contact with him. If it was up to him all would be the same. The man even wanted to rent a hotel bedroom for us in 2008, he got a no. He tried that one a few times, always got a no. The thing is, he has not done any work on himself and, like LP's husband he was physically abusive. He needs special professional help that he is not ready to have.

Many MLCers would still be clinging to their LBS if allowed. That is the other things, cliging does not equal reconciliation, just like vanishing does not mean that there will not be one.

You didn't answer Air, what would you do if your MLCer knocked on your door tomorrow and said he wanted back?

The main advice is focus on yourself and the kids, if existing.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #106 on: July 05, 2019, 08:27:55 PM »
XYZCF, refer to Nerissa's posts.  She's speaking to you reasonably and from her heart.  Yet you want to argue with me. For the last time I'm done with your attempts to turn this into a thread war and derail an interesting conversation because it doesn't reinforce your beliefs.

Again read what's written rather than making up things in your mind just so you can take up your martyr mantle of victimhood and zoomaround the triangle alone.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.  You were the one who attacked me for my feelings rather than having a mature discussion about the topic.  That's not having an opinion.  That's having a tantrum.  And you're simply making a fool of yourself. 

No, this time you don't get to reframe the discussion to suit yourself because I never once suggested anywhere anyone go find another partner.  That's something else you're attempting to use as a strawman to shift the conversation. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Online RedStar

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #107 on: July 05, 2019, 08:28:57 PM »
How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

It's not about how many times people arrive here believing something like that. Of course they do, it's the nature of the beast. But then they learn from the posters here, who advise NOT holding onto those views, and to work on themselves. We are not telling them to stay as they are!

We do not promote waiting around. Anyone who has been reading this site over the past year, at least, knows that the advice is consistently to DETACH as soon as one can, work on oneself, and leave the MLCer to it.

It is up to that newbie, however, to take the advice and then implement it when they are good and ready to. We can't change them if they don't want to change (sound...familiar?).

Yes, they have that type of hope WHEN THEY GET HERE. And we understand that, because many of us have been there. But then, because of this site, they learn a lot and shift their views and attitudes. We also advise them to let go of the timelines, which are just general descriptions of the shape of a process--not promises.

This site is not at all about handing out "false hope," even if it is a fact that some MLCers return. It's not wrong to say that some do. But no matter how many do or how many do not, it has absolutely no connection with any OTHER case. No matter how many come back or not, it doesn't have any bearing on whether a particular one returns whatsoever.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:31:02 PM by RedStar »

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2019, 08:35:45 PM »
I am sorry you feel that way LP

Others would disagree that “ I am making a fool of myself”.

That comment was rude and uncalled for.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #109 on: July 05, 2019, 08:37:33 PM »
You didn't answer Air, what would you do if your MLCer knocked on your door tomorrow and said he wanted back?

I didn't answer because the question is a moot question.
My husband has not tried to contact me with regard to returning, nor do I expect he ever will contact me again. 
He is firmly in his life with OW - his parents and family accepted his decision to abandon his marriage within a few months after BD.

As firmly as you believe most MLCers will come out of it and want to come home -
I just as equally believe that most MLCers will not attempt a return.
There will of course be exceptions - but again - I am of the belief that majority don't try to return.

So what is the point of asking a hypothetical question about some imaginary moment when my MLCer might come knocking on the door?  I see none.  If 20 years from now - I get a knock on the door and it is my MLCer - most likely it will be because he has dementia and forgot he doesn't live here anymore!

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #110 on: July 05, 2019, 08:37:49 PM »
Ah, yes Anjae I see your point now. 

Interesting because I'd never thought about it in the terms you describe referring to my ex wanting to return. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #111 on: July 05, 2019, 08:47:44 PM »
We do not promote waiting around. Anyone who has been reading this site over the past year, at least, knows that the advice is consistently to DETACH as soon as one can, work on oneself, and leave the MLCer to it.

That has been the advice for years on end. Yes, hope was talked about, still is. Returns were talked about, still is, but that has been the standard advice for many years. 

Air, fair enough, you don't to answer, don't answer.

Each of us have different beliefs. Mine are based on HS stories and real life and those tell me most MLCers will want back. They also tell me most will never reconcile because the LBS will not want to.

In that regard, LP, your husband showed that things we used think aren't as we used to think.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 08:59:02 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #112 on: July 05, 2019, 10:24:12 PM »
Just wanted to point out that this discussion has veered slightly. Not saying that is wrong or not valuable, just slightly different talking about returns, the odds of reconciliation and standing. Whereas I thought the original discussion was more about 'framing' ones attitude towards MLC behaviours...and how that might affect your choices and recovery as an LBS.

For many of us who are not standing or seeing anything other than a marriage destroyed in a horrific way, there is a residual WTF to resolve in our own minds as part of taking responsibility for our recovery from someone else's behaviour in crisis. As part of working out our own answers to 'WTF happened' we often try to figure out if we believe in MLC, who our spouse really was and is, and how we make peace with that. The issues of intent, responsibility and impairment for me are part of that process rather than a 'will they return' debate as most newbies come with.

Fwiw I think most LBS need to do three things:
1 reduce further damage by protecting themselves financially, practically and emotionally from a destructive self-interested spouse
2 find safer ground to stand on by detaching and limiting contact as much as they can while they catch their breath
3 work out how to quarantine anything important in life from the effects of their spouse's behaviour as much as possible and focus on that more than the MLCer.

There will be plenty of time to make sense of it...or your own sense of it...later when you are safer, saner and not living in a hurricane.

But it is easy to become adjusted maybe to the weirdness of MLC as a new normal after a while and to forget how gut wrenchingly shocking and distressing and incomprehensible it can be after BD for a newbie. Or just how peculiar it can be to try to interact in a normal way with these spouses or frankly just how crazy they can be. It may be less uncommon than we knew but for many of us it is a million miles from normal. And why people need to stumble forwards from it in their own way and pace.

I happen to think that reconciliations are few for a variety of reasons. I am pretty clear that most MLC spouses are no prize at all even if the pre-MLC spouse was great. I believe that very little the LBS does makes any difference to someone with an MLC mindset bc at best they don't care and at worst they hate you....so you might as well invest in yourself, your kids and others who do care. I think these kind of events change a lot of things including the LBS.

But we risk forgetting just how Not Normal this experience feels and how reclaiming ones own sense of Normal, including how we judge our spouse, is part of the process of moving forward too.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:04:20 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #113 on: July 05, 2019, 11:18:17 PM »
Many people (back in the day) were surprised that I was on a standing site, yet I was juggling men, why?

The idea of standing gave me hope. Yes, I know I wasn’t standing “correctly”, but I still somehow worked it out in my mind if I allowed time for the “MLC process” to work, then I would have my family back. What’s wrong with having hope in the early days?  Some do come back, if you are a “lighthouse” I think the chances are better.  I have moved on, happily married, living a completely new life, why do I still believe that standing and hope for return is not a bad thing?

Hope is how I survived.

I kept talking about love but honestly, my biggest emotion was fear.
I was so F’n scared to death of living without him. I still have PTSD, not over BD, but those crazy overwhelming panic attacks. I honestly thought I was going to die, I couldn’t breath, since I couldn’t breath, the panic attack would increase, that pain, that intense physical pain right in the middle of my chest.

I found a way to calm myself, I would curl up in a ball, rock back and forth and repeated out loud, endlessly, “He will be back, let the process work, he will be back.”

It was RCR’s articles at the time that said 2-7 years, he would be back, and I believed them. Of course MY husband would be on the shorter side of two years,  ::), so I only had to make it that long. I could do two years.

Now, as for the “it’s not their fault”, I didn’t need any of that. I really didn’t care if it was his fault or why it happened, I just wanted him back. Obviously it was a good thing for me that he stayed gone that first year bc if he did come back, I would not be the person I am today, I’m much better off without him. But at the time, hope kept me breathing.

It’s just my opinion bc of my personal experience but I believe standing IS a good thing until we can breath again.
H-54
me-52
ow-30
married 1986
BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
https://heneversaidaword.com

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #114 on: July 06, 2019, 12:45:09 AM »
Quote
But I am upset when I see newbies get on this site and cling to the MLC timeline.

How many times have you seen a newbie figuring out they may be 24 months in BD - and you can read in their posts that they think it will simply be a waiting game?

They are clinging to hope - and dare I say false hope - false in the sense that they think a return is likely.
And then later - sometimes much later- years later - they express that they wish posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of a return was.

Returns are possible - but they are not the norm - and so I agree with LP - that it not serving a newbie well to concentrate on the hope of a return.  Instead the focus should be on rebuilding the life of the LBSer. 

Redstar gave a brilliant response but this is my ha'porth

When a newbie arrives on this forum - that is exactly the reason why they are called newbies. They are new to the crisis and seek answers to something that is completely beyond their understanding.
Of course it becomes a waiting game for some of them - that's what they believe (rightly or wrongly) is what is best for them. 

The one common denominator for all of us is time and ALL on here are constantly reminded (not told) of the importance of using that time, standing, waiting or actively divorcing for ourselves - whatever is best for ourselves.

I am intrigued by the comment that "they wish that posters had told them upfront how unlikely the possibility of the return was"   They are told this either directly or indirectly. RCR does not say that returns are inevitable and the fact that the majority of posters on here are divorced or in the process of getting divorced.  The challenge is that in the state of shock and emotional crisis they are in when they arrive on here they do not take any notice of that because they want to be the exception that proves the rule.  Standing is a personal choice as is the decision to work on self or not.

If you look at OP's official welcome, it does not say "hope for a return which is guaranteed"  His welcome is all about the focus of this forum - detach -get emotionally, physically , spiritually healthy and let time do its work whatever the outcome.


BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline barbiedoll

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #115 on: July 06, 2019, 05:58:44 AM »
I am chomping at the bit to get involved in this conversation but it really is very overwhelming, makes me reactive at times and generally just "too much to say". I agree with some things said 8 pages ago and disagree with many comments thru out. But to go back and address them all would take until tomorrow. And I can "feel" this way today and just as likely to feel another way tomorrow ...some parts are still not stable. so I think I just need to start with this outline

Briefly.. my husband decided he no longer loved me, had NEVER been "happy" in our marriage ( over 30 years), wanted to learn to "live alone", was a "lone wolf" etc etc  in 2013. This happened 6 months after he saw his father. He had not seen his father in 14 years and I am told this may well have been a trigger in a subconscious way started to shift and activate deep repressed FOO issues. He lived at home in a hell that still hurts for a period of 6 months..monstering, threatening to leave, silent and ragefull and abusive. It was abuse with ZERO doubt and when that spilled over on to my youngest daughter ...the game is over. I kicked him out late august NOT knowing he was having an affair. I l lost 40 lbs, was anxiety ridden, felt a rage from him that was staggering and was soo lost I could barely function. I went no contact as seeing him was like a cut with a thousand knives. I discovered his affair ( by fluke and intuition) November 25 th . I confronted him ..he lied and lied some more . But I knew . I week later I sent him a long email with my lawyers name, that I had changed all banking, the locks were changed , his belongings all packed in garage , changed his address to hers and that I NEVER intended ( EVER) to lay eyes on him again as long as we both lived. Less than an hour , he was at my workplace on his knees in the parking lot in the snow , asking me "what have I done ? What the firetruck is wrong with me , you have to help me "... dangling my wedding rings in his hand . He could not stand because of chest pains, He was hospitalized for 3 days and moved into his uncles. I allowed him back a week later ( on the couch) as he was very sick ... and here we are 5 years later still licking life shattering wounds . He was back mid December ...just before Christmas . So, a very short and intense crash and burn , very unlike what I typically read on this site. And NO, I am not going to "detach" from abusive behavior towards the women in my family ( I have 5 daughters) ...so him staying as a live in MLC'er is 100% unacceptable to me. To do over?. Would have kicked him out far sooner.

Quote
If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?
Did he know what he was doing ? 
.

Did I make excuses for his behavior?

I found this site after months of monster . I had no real idea what was happening prior to that. HS gave me the answers . I did spew MLC information to anyone that would listen to me in effort to "explain what was happening to him". Of course, some agreed and some thought I was making excuses for bad behavior. I needed to convince family and most especially daughters what was "wrong" with him. I could never describe the shock that mr pedestal King of a family of 6 women ...was falling apart and wanted "out". I remember telling people " he is a good person ...he just having a MLC". I did not want anyone thinking badly of him and was very protective. But to be utterly honest ...in my heart of hearts , there was no justification that was acceptable and I threw him out. I suffered . As much as I knew about MLC , detaching , "leave him to it" etc ..I could not have him at home . I did not care if it was MLC .. there was no "excuses big enough" for this abuse . So, no, I could not stretch my mind into tolerating him no matter what was happening. If I had have know there was an affair? He would have been thrown out same exact day. To live with a MLC monster is NOT acceptable to me whatsoever. It is abuse. I can not honour myself as a mother by letting my daughters witness and watch such treatment . I felt extreme relief when he was out...

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster.

Hmmm ? NO. In my opinion...there is no "good enough " thing to blame or make excuses for him. He would need to "go have your crisis somewhere else". I mentally would have snapped. I had such extreme anxiety ...I was too afraid to come home from work. Was he in a "fog" ? Indeed he was , but I did not care and neither did I have the fortitude to detach and live with him. I did not give a flying firetruck what the reasons were .. he was an utter rage filled stranger living in my home and I felt him as a threat. I was full of rage , fear, shock, and utter confusion. He was either sleeping around the clock or pacing like an animal looking for the cage door. The "fog" ( in hindsight only) was limerance. He wanted to be somewhere else with someone else. He was trapped at home and wanted to be back in fantasy land with OW. She was making him "feel" better, appreciated, desired and admired . I did not know "she" existed but I can see the "pull" she had in hindsight. That is part of the fog in my opinion. Bottom line... you are 100 % accountable for your choices , your affair , your destruction of your family ....MLC or not. No excuses . This has been an issue in reconciliation. I have heard him ask the therapist .." Barbiedoll knows more about MLC than anyone, she knows this happens, she has read millions of stories of men that breakdown just like I did , but she still will not apply that understanding to me. There is no compassion for my "pain" or for what I went thru . She will not give me a break even though she has a deep understanding that this happens to some men. She will not "hear MY pain". My PTSD and anguish does not give a firetruck about YOUR pain...your excuses , your horrific experience of sleeping with 2 women at the same time, your romantic weekend getaways , your quitting a job and being fancy free or your arrogant piss&ng on the humans that are your children. This as I leave the counselling office in extreme reactivity and the glass in her door breaks.  That is a brutal look at reconciliation ... I have not been able to accept excuses. I do see , however, that in the later stages of reconciliation ( if you actually want to save your marriage) this needs to stop and be resolved and let go. It took me a VERY VERY long time. It has to run its course. That's a fact no matter what any one says .

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why?

Yes. I did. Because I am a human that was betrayed by the "keeper of the family gate". There are no descriptive words that can express this hurt. All words are inadequate in monumental ways. It was like a murder by a grinning arrogant self entitled cheater.. the one you thought was your greatest protector in your lifetime. It is like someone delivering a mental illness to you... because it put me into such a staggering life altering crisis , I still struggle to recover from. His actions made my children weep and it changed the blueprint of their life and ideas of safety and security . They will never be who they might have been without this ... it created epic losses that will be in your soul for all time.

What I do want to clarify is where I am now. I am able to "hear his pain"... although I still have rumblings of reactivity. I do feel stirs of compassion and hurt for him and what he went thru , but I needed to walk thru all my own emotions first . I needed to be "heard" first . I needed to know that he fully could breath in and out...  the impact this had on me and my children. He needed to know my sorrow and walk with me in that hurt ... He has had a tough go with me . I see that like crystal ..and he weathered the wildest of rage storms you can ever imagine. We did that while we were drowning in chronic fight or flight , my overwhelming need to "push him away " over and over and over ...to see if he will stay . I finally see that. My story is not at all like the lovely Acorn or S&D  and when I do read their thread , it is with awe and confusion. They are steadfast , strong, calm and reflective. I have spoken with my therapist about this as I have wondered why I am not any of this ...why has it been so long for me to find some stable footing. I did not have the "time " to process one shock after another . He was gone a total of 101 days. Time is your friend ... as painfull as that companion is , it is helping you heal and come into yourself. I am still trying to find my new self , fix a marriage, help children recover and try to feel compassion, forgiveness and acceptance.. Reconcilliation should not be the goal or the only outcome to strive towards . Its not for everyone and I am not sure I would choose that road again. Its all about SELF and fixing, soothing and knowing your - SELF.




Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Offline barbiedoll

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #116 on: July 06, 2019, 06:07:44 AM »
Just to add .... 1Trouble posted on July 5th. It was an awesome post and every word resonated with me . I applaud !!!
Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Offline beyondblessed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #117 on: July 06, 2019, 06:47:51 AM »
When we are left, our whole world as we knew it is turned inside out.  At that point, I don't care who you are, what your bank account reads, how high your IQ is, etc.... you go into survival mode.  You will also say and do things you never thought possible.  Lord knows, I was consumed with anger when this first went down.  I wanted to rip him to shreds, and that feeling didn't go away, until I went no contact and started focusing on my own life and shortcomings.  I'm one that has always believed we both played our part and did our wrongs to get to the point of BD, but ultimately I wasn't the one to completely burn it all down with disrespect, lies, and adultery.

Everyone comes here wanting to find safety and hope that all isn't lost, and from my experience you can preach, rant and rave and beg these LBS to cut the rope, but just like the MLC'er, this is not a message that is received until that particular LBS is good and ready.  A person, be it MLC'er or LBS, has to reach the point that they want the situation to change before any amount of reasoning will be effective and considered.

Our situations are similar enough to draw comparisons, but we all still unique in our individuality, and that makes all bets off for each situation.  We, and we alone make decisions that play into the dynamics of our situations.  If my xh came back to me today and apologized with a contrite and honest heart, I would accept his apology and close the door.  3.5 years of being on my own have given me the opportunity to create the life I am truly happy to live, and that wouldn't have happened had he not left the way he did.  And just as a previous poster was vile enough to wish a crisis upon all the "judgemental" LBS, I am bold enough to wish the LBS to find the sort of peace, self love and happiness I've found on my own, within themselves.

Offline Father5

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #118 on: July 06, 2019, 08:20:16 AM »
This is a great thread and should be read by every "Newbie". I am almost 1.5 years since the initi BD. I don't count that as I didn't put two and two together. I new nothing about MLC.

 My real pain didn't start until BD3 when I found out about the affair. So I am mentally only in this 11 months. I still cling to hope but this thread has opened my eyes alot. I still hope for reconciliation atleast for my small children.

 She hasn't even tried to make amends in any way. We don't talk except about the kids which is minimal. We haven't had any divorce  initiation yet. She is hoping we can mediate which I think is not going to happen.

 I always assumed I could forgive but as I grow I see I might not. I still can't figure out what happened.
Together 12 yrs Married 5
5 kids 3- Step (21) (20) (18) Two together ( 8 ) (9)
BD1 March 2018 - I wish I could give you more of what you need
BD2 Aug 2018 - I want a divorce sent by text ILWYBNILWY

O/M Discovered Nov-18

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #119 on: July 06, 2019, 09:31:26 AM »
If we are making excuses for MLCer’s choices, why? 
Bc I simply couldn't reconcile the person I knew with the person who could do such awful things, who had loved and respected me and now apparently hated me. Nothing made sense. The excuses were a way of not accepting that this awful frightening crazy man WAS my h. Until I had to or frankly lose my mind.

If we are blaming non-prosecutable things such as the fog/alien/monster, why?
Not sure I did this much. Nor blamed ow either. Whenever I have felt blame or resentment, it has always been aimed at my h. At the same time, I honestly saw a lot of irrational extreme behaviour so I think I usually believed that he was not mentally 'right'....I still blamed him, but that stopped me hating him probably. Maybe I needed to try so hard to not take it personally bc the hatred felt so personal it was almost unliveable with. It was like being repeatedly stabbed by someone laughing.

If we are blaming MLCer with intense resentment and anger, and no compassion and understanding (it is a monumental crisis), why? 
I needed to dial down my compassion to protect myself, to force myself to look at the worst not the best I remembered. And it is very hard, and I'm not a saint, to feel compassion for someone who relentlessly hurts you with no apparent concern for you at all. My h was staggeringly cruel, even now a bit of me finds that shocking. And with a vanisher, it is too easy perhaps to believe that they are skipping away happily covered with your metaphorical blood bc you see few signs of how messed up they are or how messed up their new life is. There was definitely a time when compassion for him felt like a weakness or a risk and a foolish thing to hold onto. And I needed my compassion for myself and was fairly confident that he was surrounded by people soothing his crisis-fevered brow!

Whenever I have small bits of 'evidence' that he is probably still a mess or the odd moment when I remember how he was - although those fade with time tbh and are replaced by the recent horrors - it is easier to feel compassion again. Perhaps my compassion is founded on the belief that my h did break in some way, that it was/is a painful crisis and that he has lost things he cared about...when I doubt that, my compassion drops....with a vanisher, it is not always easy to see that so it becomes a choice really, almost an act of faith that the person I knew would not have chosen this for himself or me. But some days my faith is weaker bc truthfully he said so little that I probably can't really ever know...so my compassion cycles too lol. I guess the bare bones choice I hung onto was that I did not want to hate someone I had loved so much.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 09:40:03 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #120 on: July 06, 2019, 10:06:55 AM »

The breakup of the family is what is devastating to our children, not the fact that a parent is standing.
I am only quoting this part because this is not true in my case for my D, who was 18 at the time. I was the standard mess for 2 months, then slowly started pulling myself up by my bootstraps, not easy with an in home wallower. After he moved out, I started healing in earnest. One day, I was laughing at Chimp Lady and my D said "Thank God you found that site. I was worried you would wait around for Dad, and that's just not healthy and I was beginning to think you would  never laugh again. I love Dad, but he is broken and I don't want you to be broken because of it."  Long conversation ensued, but my standing WAS devastating to her. Her confident, feisty mother was waiting for a screwed up person to get unscrewed up. That's when I truly decided he's doing his thing, I'm doing mine and if somewhere in the future we find each other and it's beautiful, fine. If not fine.  But that is only my case.
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Online OffRoad

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #121 on: July 06, 2019, 12:34:07 PM »
Some of this side bar started because a person was angry at their MLCer for what they had done. Another person asked "What if an MLCER doesn't know what they are doing or can't stop themselves from doing it. (Alway possible) It was implied that if either were the case, the LBS has no right to be angry.(this I would disagree with) After all the MLCER is just mentally unwell. It was also pointed out that maybe they know what they are doing, but don't realize the consequences of their actions. (I think this is quite likely, btw)

Maybe they don't remember, or can't stop themselves, or don't realized the consequences. Ok  But the LBS and any family is still collateral damage. We have  loss. We have to survive. Heck, we have to figure out HOW to survive.

My most important LBS lesson:
I get to be angry. I get to be sad. I get to have an opinion. I get to change my mind. I get to feel however I want to feel and deal with it in the fashion that makes sense to me at the moment. If I accidentally hurt someone in the process, I get to try to make it right. No one has the right to tell me how I feel or that their reality is the only valid one or that I'm wrong. They can tell me they disagree and I accept that.

Always acceptable: What you said makes me upset because that is not my experience or reality. I think if you experienced my reality, you might think differently.

Rarely acceptable: This is what the problem is, not that . (Said definitively )

Never acceptable: if you believe/feel that, then you should leave/die/insert over reaction here.

I try to remember this lesson when I have to deal with my MLCer. He also tries to tell me I "should" feel/think something.
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2019, 12:43:48 PM »
Good points, OffRoad. I need to borrow that list! The "rarely" part is something I need more practice in.

Your daughters words resonate with me because my parents divorced when I was 21/split up at 20. If my dad had entertained even a friendship with my mother, I would have written them both off as cuckoo. It's a good sign that your daughter knows what a healthy relationship should look like, even if she loved both of you and didn't just selfishly want you to work it out for her sake. I knew my mother was unwell and wasn't going to change (not a big personality change there), and I would have never wanted that for my dad. I also accepted when he left his second marriage, even though I really wanted them to be happy together again. They weren't the same people anymore, and there was no unreasonable expectation that they would flip back into the early stages of their relationship.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Anjae

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2019, 05:48:06 PM »
Many people (back in the day) were surprised that I was on a standing site, yet I was juggling men, why?

And I arrived years into Mr J's MLC. It was the only place, of the several that existed at the time I come by that I liked. The articles were good and interesting, the threads and the posters diverse, it was possible to share external links, there were discussion threads.

Mr J's crisis may had started years before I come here, but there was still a million things I didn't had a clue about and he was still doing very nasty, horrible things. It is not MLCers, or at least some MLCer, stop doing damaging MLC a little while after BD.

What’s wrong with having hope in the early days?´

There is nothing wrong with hope. Be in the early days or latter on. What we hope for may change with time, from reconciliation/saving the marriage to a good, joyful future for ourselves with or without someone else. Hope is never wrong.

There are, however, times when hope is replaced by an end. For me when I took my grandmother to the hospital for the last time. I knew it was the end. However I did not lost hope that, in the future, medicine and science will be further developed and things will be different for others.

Some do come back, if you are a “lighthouse” I think the chances are better.  I have moved on, happily married, living a completely new life, why do I still believe that standing and hope for return is not a bad thing?

I don't disagreee that being a "lighthouse" may up the odds, but being a "lighthouse" is not for everyone and, at times "lighthouses" go dark and find a new life. You mean standing and hope for return in broad terms or in your case? If in broad terms, I love happy ends and would love to see as many LBS as possible reconciled. But I know that does not tend to happen. As for standing, I see it more as a grace period for the LBS and something that covenant keepers or people with similar beliefs will held for life.

Many of us will cary on with our lives and standing will fade. Some of us may meet the MLCer later on even if we stop standing and even if we have had someone else in our life. MLC takes so long some will date and become single while the MLCer remains in MLC, etc. There are as many variables as LBS and MLCers.

It was RCR’s articles at the time that said 2-7 years, he would be back, and I believed them. Of course MY husband would be on the shorter side of two years,  ::), so I only had to make it that long. I could do two years.

When I come here the articles had a shorter timeline for MLC, 2-5 years, I think. If 5 was the maximum, surely Mr J that had already been in MLC for a good while would soon be over his crisis.  ::) I already had managed more than 2 years, 5 was around the corner. Except, no, it wasn't going to happen.


When we are left, our whole world as we knew it is turned inside out.  At that point, I don't care who you are, what your bank account reads, how high your IQ is, etc.... you go into survival mode.  You will also say and do things you never thought possible.

This. BD was a very long time ago for me. When I try to remember it, I know the facts, but it becomes harder to remember how I felt. I know I was a mess and everything was up side down because I was not able to think logically. I have no desire to go back to BD times, and like I said on another post, I would no wish MLC on my worst enemy if I had one. Same with BD.

Forgiving end up being easy for me, but I don't have my MLCer around. I don't know what will happen if that comes to be. Maybe the flood gates will open, maybe not.

There are two things many LBS do not manage, but I always managed, eat and laugh. As for angry, I was not angry, I was furious. Truly furious.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #124 on: July 06, 2019, 11:38:31 PM »
Maybe they don't remember, or can't stop themselves, or don't realized the consequences. Ok  But the LBS and any family is still collateral damage. We have  loss. We have to survive. Heck, we have to figure out HOW to survive.

My most important LBS lesson:
I get to be angry. I get to be sad. I get to have an opinion. I get to change my mind. I get to feel however I want to feel and deal with it in the fashion that makes sense to me at the moment. If I accidentally hurt someone in the process, I get to try to make it right. No one has the right to tell me how I feel or that their reality is the only valid one or that I'm wrong. They can tell me they disagree and I accept that.

Such a wise reminder.
Along with the truth that I am responsible for choosing what to do with how I feel.
Which sometimes means working hard to be honest with myself at least about how I feel. And that feelings are not facts and they move around.

Which brings me back to Acorn's point about the issues of blame/justification etc being more about us and less about them perhaps.
Put simply, most MLCers don't care what we think or feel about their actions. And often superimpose their assumptions and emotions on us. So whether we blame them or excuse them or justify them or not pretty much doesn't matter to them...unless they want something from us or it fits their justifications.

I guess that might change if they have recovered enough respect and empathy to want to talk about what they did or reconnect in some real way. And some may never reach that point so I live on the operating assumption that my xh has not and will not. Until then, it doesn't matter to them imho. And our feelings should not be influenced much by what we think they think or feel either. Again jmo.

But perhaps it really matters to us bc it is part of how we answer the big WTF happened question we all have. And part of trying to find peace with our own past and present life. In doing that, different people will reach different conclusions about it bc we are influenced by our own experience and values and needs, and we may change our minds too with time and events. All of which is ok....as long as it is within spitting distance of healthy reality, we get to choose how we see it all in whatever way serves us best and helps us heal and live well despite what happened. And it is ok too to say idk what I think.

For me...and I speak only for me...I think I am guided now by three things.

I do not want to expose myself to things or people that will damage me. Including my own thoughts.

I value my sanity and rationality so accept that some kind of understanding the incomprehensible is necessary for me even if it has a lot of gaps and I need to be open minded...but not so much that my reality or brain falls out about my past, present or future.

I do not want my life to be shaped by hatred or fear of someone that I loved and valued for so long, regardless of how they feel about me.

All of which for me - rightly or wrongly from others POV - means currently:
I accept but can't forgive without some acknowledgement of what was done.
I can guess at explanations (bc they are a guess based on limited info in my case) without excusing or justifying what is unacceptable behaviour to me by one human to another, let alone a spouse.
I can apportion responsibility - both mine and others - without blame or victimhood bc that is constructive for me and respectful towards the free will of others and the lessons they may learn.
I can accept that there are things I know and things I don't including what it feels like in someone else's head or shoes....and I have the right to choose my own thoughts and shoes.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 11:50:24 PM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline lawprofessorTopic starter

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2019, 06:02:18 AM »
Well today is my self imposed deadline for my involvement on this thread.  I'll close my portion of the posts with a few random thoughts.

I know this thread has been a bit (to some of you very much) a Wild West of jumbled thoughts and opinions and topics with some (lots) of emotion and steam, messy and even difficult.  Others enjoyed it. 

Please consider taking away from this that we are all different and giving voice to needs and thoughts helps some work though sticky areas.  Where one is today, may or may not be where the person will be later today or even tomorrow.  And that's perfect.

In this, it matters who we surround ourselves with in all aspects of our lives.  Depression can be soul sucking and contagious almost.  Surrounding oneself with depressed people, I always find, trends to pave the way to sucking me down that rabbit hole.  Surrounding oneself with people too willing to enable slows ones ability and or desire to stand on your feet with pride, dignity, and self respect, again in my experience.  It handicaps ones ability to take ownership and steer their own course in life.  Everyone needs a bit of powder on their backside at times.  A steady diet of it leaves one in a cloud of powder and victimhood much like the well discussed mlc fog, in my opinion.

It's a hard life to be a fixer.  A carpenter who spends his life building everyone else a home is still homeless at the end of the day, the week, the year.  Nobody hires a carpenter to build a home and gives him a room in the house for repayment wanting him to live there forever.  People want the carpenter to leave when the house is built because they don't need him anymore.  Don't neglect yourself and your needs and end up homeless.

Do one thing new every month.  Or week if your more high energy and have the time to do so was always my goal.  It gives you a new challenge and helps build self confidence.  Even if you end up disliking it, you've learned something.  Plus it gives you something else to talk to people about.  One of my ladies got her first Brazilian wax having no idea what all that would entail.  Totally knocked the thought of her ex out of the conversation for hours.  Small, big, whatever.  Plus it gets you off the forum, and you'll have something new to say when you return that may just distract others for a bit. And you'll have accomplished something which is important for many people. 

I used to describe paving the way as the biggest waste of time I could imagine for a recommendation on this forum.  I still think that.  LBS's have too much to do to first survive and then to rebuild their lives in my opinion, to worry about paving a path for the possible return of someone who has no desire right now at least to be there.  Bad for fixers to give them something to do for another instead of for themselves and their children.  Distracting from the real work that needs to be done.  That doesn't translate necessarily to mean filling the path behind you with boulders unless you want to of course.  As well, in my view naturally, if we have to face forward and hack our way through the jungle to getting healthy and healed and building a life, it's not too much to think those who wish to follow at some point can't make the effort to walk through some tall grass.  If they are going to return, they will, tall grass or not.

Time is a gift.  But it doesn't stand still.  If you're standing still for too long, time is passing and your gift is ticking away, wasted.  Yes, everyone is different and some need more time than others especially at different stages but that doesn't mean sitting down in hell complaining about the heat has to be a life long career unless you choose it to be.  And then it's your responsibility to NOT lure or build cushy places for others to sit down next to you just because misery loves company and you don't want to be alone in misery.

Choices.  That's what we are left with.  Make your choices with your eyes wide open.  Take care of yourself and your children first.  Spend your time looking forward not over your shoulder. 

That's my suggestion. 

Best to you all.

Lp



if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2019, 07:13:52 AM »
Thank you, LP.
There's a lot in this that speaks to just where I am. Even if it took me an irritatingly long time to get here  ::)....so I really appreciate your sharing your learning in the way you have here.
Time and tall grass, just as you say.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Silver

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2019, 02:31:08 AM »
(I believe this thread is locked again by mistake, so I'm unlocking it now)
"I've seen dreams that move the mountains, hope that doesn't ever end even when the sky is falling. I've seen miracles just happen, silent prayers get answered, broken hearts become brand new. That's what faith can do." Kutless

Online One day at a time

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #128 on: July 09, 2019, 08:08:02 AM »
A bit late to the party but very interesting thread indeed... It is clear that people in HS are at different stages and have different views on what has happened to their spouses, responsibility, blame, etc so I guess it's only normal that certain topics cause heated debates but I actually think it's quite helpful as people can see there's no one size fits all..

I could give a long explanation as to what I think about what my H has done, is he responsible or not, etc.. But today I feel none of it matters. He's gone, I'm alone and it's up to me to find a way to make my life better.. If he ever wakes up and wants to talk to me, I will let him say his piece for the sake of the 15 years we spent together.. Will I care about what he has to say? Who knows! Today he's not here and it's very unlikely he'll me here tomorrow.. or next week.. or next month..
The fact that others have returned, doesn't


H - 42 (40 @BD1)
M - 42 (40 @BD1)
Together 15 years, M 8 @separation
No kids
BD1 - 26th Aug 2017 (Not happy, life has no purpose, "we have problems")
BD2 - 22nd March 2018 (Marriage is over, we want different things, confessed EA with someone 12,000 kms away although "she means nothing")
H moved in with parents 11th May 2018 (I asked him to leave as couldn't handle the EA rubbed all over my face)
H moved abroad 29th Dec 2018, not sure if OW will join him or if they are still in contact.
Confirmation H is with OW in her home country  - 3rd June 2019

"One of the happiest moments in life is when you find the courage to let go of what you can’t change"

Offline terrified_in_TN

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2019, 10:54:11 AM »
Wow, guess I am late for the party.  Everyone has packed up and went home already.  But since I was mentioned a few times, I'll weigh in even if everyone has gone home.

I spent the holiday weekend visiting with my brother, my cousin (also a LBS who has NO IDEA about this site), and a cousin by marriage I've never met.  So I missed out on this discussion.

As I have stated before, my situation is slightly different in a lot of ways.  But chiefly I WAS the OM in my ex's first marriage.  Maybe I am living my Karma now, after all I DID participate in the breakup of a family (I'm not taking sole blame here, it takes two to tango, but I accept my part in it).  I was young, naive, had extremely low self-esteem, and only valued myself if I was in a relationship, which in those days was extremely rare as I was so introverted as to be alone most of the time.  My, my, my, how things change.  Sound like I'm justifying why I did it?  Maybe.  But I do accept the fact that I DID.  Although I didn't FULLY appreciate the consequences of my actions, I am not going to say I was in some "quarter life fog".  I knew it was wrong.  But she had me convinced their marriage was over anyway.  She conned me pretty good.  You know what, I STILL had a choice, and I chose poorly.

What I am about to say is going to piss off a whole lot of folks, and I don't really care.  I am not angry-I am just speaking MY truth.  You might get the wrong impression that I do not care for 'standers', or that I think they are in some way 'wrong'.  Couldn't be further from the truth.  Actually, I have the highest admiration for covenant-keepers.  They have a level of commitment that I can only dream of aspiring towards.  But you see, I can NEVER be one.  My first and only marriage started with lies and deceit, and although I'm not really religious, if I understand scripture as I *THINK* I do, then technically I am already an adulterer.  So even if I WANTED TO, its not an option for me.

LP was right.  I do feel deceived.  Maybe somewhat by RCR, but more so by the general attitude of the forum.  YES, RCR has stated that MLC takes TIME, and has stressed that it take a lot of it.  Many times when probing for the odds, back then we were greeted with replies that blatantly stated "there are no reliable statistics", but yet heavily intimated that most, if not all MLCers do eventually want to return.  I think just like LP, that does a HUGE disservice to those who arrive confused, hurting, and are in enormous pain to the point of being frozen from making much needed decisions, and possibly quick action to secure themselves.  I am one who Divorced quickly.  It didn't prevent financial damage, but it sure mitigated it.  I am one of the lucky ones.  Not to get into my story too much, but these days I have recovered financially, and actually doing better in that respect than when I was married.  My ex is on welfare.  She still owes me money for medical bills due to our d's broken arm last year, which I warned HEAVILY about when my ex abruptly quit her job (and caused the kids to lose health insurance, which I quickly secured).  Rumor has it that her life isn't quite the dreamy fantasy she thought it would be.  Not that I ask questions, because I don't.  People just offer me up info without prompting.  But I digress...

I have also found quite the obvious bit of contradiction in this site, or at least the forum.  I didn't notice it at first, but its obvious to me now.  Anjae, I'm going to use you as an example since you mentioned I jumped in an R without enough time to self-reflect...I thought we all process at our own pace, and it takes as long (or as short) as it takes for each of us individually?  Since I jumped into an R too soon, let me ask....how long is the proper amount of time to wait?  I thought that was different for each of us?  You don't even KNOW me, so how would you know whether I've had the proper "alone" time or not?  Again, not picking on you, just making a point.  For the record, it WAS too soon for me.  I got out of that r and got into another one not too terribly long after that-with a fellow member of this forum.  Again, would you say I've had enough time now?  Still too soon?  Being frank, its nobody's business but mine.  I DON'T post details of my r on this forum, because opinions are like a-holes....everyone has one.  For the record, MY truth is this:  I PREFER to be in a r.  I've spent enough time "alone" in my life.  Don't think I need any more of it.  The difference this time?  I don't NEED to be in an r for my self worth.  I know my deal-breakers, and they are firmly in place.  I know what I will tolerate, and won't.

Myself, and my SO (who is taking a self-imposed hiatus from this forum) have come to the same conclusion:  This place helps a lot of people...at first.  But after a period of time becomes unhealthy and I would dare say quite damaging for MOST.  Its almost to the point I question who the sane people are.  Again, I don't speak for ALL, but for SOME I certainly think those that find this site, hang around for a few months, get their footing back under them and leave to never be heard from again probably are more healthy than those that hang around for years, possibly decades discussing MLC.

There are those here who would like nothing more than HS to be a landing spot of only like-minded people.  And I can almost see wishing those of us who don't drink the cool aid from being prevented from having a voice.  So they have their own safe place where they can wait like the lady of shallot without having to be presented with the ugly truth of the likelihood of a desired outcome is unlikely.

And by the way, I am not being accusatory here thinking myself as better than anyone else.  I TOO have done the VERY things I am posting about.  This place has been unhealthy FOR ME.  Its my own fault, but again, I do feel highly mislead.

So why am I still here?  Well, I'm not like I used to be.  But every once in a while I HAVE to speak my truth in the hopes it helps just ONE person.  You see, not everyone here can possibly be the victim of MLC.  There ARE other possibilities, and I speak to those that might be dealing with something else entirely.  I stand firm that although I googled the right 'terms' to find this place, I wound up on the WRONG forum.  I still believe in my case although there might be a sprinkling of MLC in there, I am dealing with something entirely different, and I KNOW there has to be others like me.

Lets see in my tenure we have blamed MLC on...

Brain chemistry
bvFTD
identity crisis
BiPolar
DID

I'm sure I'm leaving out a whole laundry list of other things to 'blame' it on.  Yet, the one thing I don't recall ever being blamed here, is couldn't it be a simple as it came down to a CHOICE that our ex/spouses made?  Nope, can't be that....got to be some reason for it-see list above.  Got to be something wrong with them.  If only we can figure out what it is, we can find a cure!  Sorry, I don't buy it any more.  Not for the majority.  I'm sure in some cases you can find a medical diagnosis, but thats not what I'm talking about here.  Its akin to 'analysis-paralysis', something that even RCR warned heavily about, yet here we are....day after day, month after month, year after year still trying to figure out what happened and what went wrong.  I submit it doesn't matter what went wrong-but it is time to accept that something did go wrong, and there is nothing you can do about it.  You much better off pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and gathering yourself together as quickly as you can.  If you don't, there is a good chance they will break you....financially, emotionally, or even physically.

I realize I added very little to this discussion, so I'll just wrap up and say YES, in the vast majority of cases, they know what they are doing.  Hell, I've done some pretty horrible things in my life that I am TERRIBLY ashamed of, and I STILL knew what I was doing.  I am sure you can find the odd case here or there where there is some extenuating medical explanation of why they don't, but I akin those to the 'temporary insanity' pleas in a court of law:  While I have no doubt there are those who have suffered and should not be held accountable, that is extremely RARE.

I also believe they are indeed responsible.  If you can't defend it in a court of law, then its not a valid excuse:  Oh, they aren't responsible for robbing that bank, they were in a fog!  Sorry, doesn't fly.  Again, if there is a credible, verifiable, medical excuse then maybe.....otherwise, YES they ARE responsible for their actions.

Thanks my take anyway.  Don't take it personally.  These are MY thoughts, feelings, and MY TRUTHS.

-T

Offline OldPilot

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2019, 11:07:01 AM »
how long is the proper amount of time to wait?
Couple of things

Waiting is not standing.
That is very clear on this website.

As far as how long to wait before getting in another relationship.
I think some advice I was given is not a bad idea, wait at least one month for every year you have been married.

For me 28 years = 28 months.
I waited that past my divorce date. which added 3 more years from bomb drop.

So there is one opinion which I have given many other times before.

Offline terrified_in_TN

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #131 on: July 09, 2019, 11:10:07 AM »
Thanks OP, but in the context of what I wrote "waiting" was referring to how long one should be single before entering into another r.  It had nothing to do with standing.

Second, my question was actually a rhetorical one.  My point was NO ONE can tell me what is best for me, except ME.

-T

Offline OldPilot

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #132 on: July 09, 2019, 11:27:36 AM »
My answer was NOT meant just for you.

And thanks for the feedback about the website.

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #133 on: July 09, 2019, 11:50:18 AM »


Myself, and my SO (who is taking a self-imposed hiatus from this forum) have come to the same conclusion:  This place helps a lot of people...at first.  But after a period of time becomes unhealthy and I would dare say quite damaging for MOST.  Its almost to the point I question who the sane people are.  Again, I don't speak for ALL, but for SOME I certainly think those that find this site, hang around for a few months, get their footing back under them and leave to never be heard from again probably are more healthy than those that hang around for years, possibly decades discussing MLC.

There are those here who would like nothing more than HS to be a landing spot of only like-minded people.  And I can almost see wishing those of us who don't drink the cool aid from being prevented from having a voice.  So they have their own safe place where they can wait like the lady of shallot without having to be presented with the ugly truth of the likelihood of a desired outcome is unlikely.



Okay, so I  know nothing about you, TNT, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
If you wouldn't mind sharing, since your SO is a forum member, is that how you met?

I think you could have said your piece without insulting anyone, fwiw.  Personally, I see MANY people here who are no longer standing but stick around to help others (pay it forward) and to continue to try to make sense of a traumatic event that happened for which there are no answers.

You're content to have a new (presumably healthier) relationship cover over the unanswered questions (forgive me for the judgment inherent in that statement).  Others still need to grapple with it.  Everyone is different.

The people who "hang around for years" are not obsessing or refusing to let go.  Nah and Ready2Transform are prime examples of LBS who are not standing, and who are frankly killing it at life, and yet still come back to help answer questions for those who are just beginning to wrestle with all of this.  There are countless others I could name drop (and apologies to those I didn't, but y'all know you're killing it and are healthy enough to not need me to name drop you anyway  ;))

As for the forum being a cluster of like-mindedness - uh...no.  Apparently you've missed the myriad of explosive threads that have resulted from all the differing opinions. 

Congratulations on finding another LBS to spend your life with so that you don't have to "hang around talking about MLC."  I truly wish you happiness, but no need to sh*t on people who use their time differently than you do. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline terrified_in_TN

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #134 on: July 09, 2019, 01:07:25 PM »

Okay, so I  know nothing about you, TNT, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
If you wouldn't mind sharing, since your SO is a forum member, is that how you met?

Yes, we met on HS.

I think you could have said your piece without insulting anyone, fwiw.  Personally, I see MANY people here who are no longer standing but stick around to help others (pay it forward) and to continue to try to make sense of a traumatic event that happened for which there are no answers.

Although I KNEW my post was going to upset some, I made no reference to any specific posters.  And I do agree there are those who have stuck around for admirable purposes.  If a given poster takes my opinion personally, since I made no specific references, then they should examine WHY they took my post personally.  That would be their issue, not mine.

You're content to have a new (presumably healthier) relationship cover over the unanswered questions (forgive me for the judgment inherent in that statement).  Others still need to grapple with it.  Everyone is different.

Absolutely everyone is different.  Its an individual choice.  Although I am completely lost when you mention 'cover over unanswered questions'.

The people who "hang around for years" are not obsessing or refusing to let go.  Nah and Ready2Transform are prime examples of LBS who are not standing, and who are frankly killing it at life, and yet still come back to help answer questions for those who are just beginning to wrestle with all of this.  There are countless others I could name drop (and apologies to those I didn't, but y'all know you're killing it and are healthy enough to not need me to name drop you anyway  ;))

Agreed, that there are a few long term posters who are worth their weight in gold.

As for the forum being a cluster of like-mindedness - uh...no.  Apparently you've missed the myriad of explosive threads that have resulted from all the differing opinions. 

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.  I said it seems to me there are those that would LIKE it to be a place of like minded individuals.

Congratulations on finding another LBS to spend your life with so that you don't have to "hang around talking about MLC."  I truly wish you happiness, but no need to sh*t on people who use their time differently than you do.

Thank you for the well-wishes.

Offline osb

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #135 on: July 09, 2019, 03:45:18 PM »
Have been away from HS for a long while, returned and stumbled immediately into this thread. It's long, it's fractious, it's illuminating and thought provoking.

I agree with the poster (sorry can't remember whom!) who wrote that our responses to MLC likely reflect our own stages, more than those of our MLCer.  I think we all go through denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, not necessarily in that order, and sometimes circling back to some stages but not others. And while I was in denial, it wasn't my MLCer's fault; while I was angry I truly wanted to set my MLCer on fire (I hated that, so I mostly skipped anger); some of my worst decisions were because I was bargaining with the straw man MLCer in my head; etc etc. I think my MLCer was oblivious to my stages, as he was densely oblivious to me, during that period.

In the end MLC behaviour seems part volitional, and part not. Like an alcoholic transfixed by the bottle on the shelf; like the OCD patient who knows washing his hands one more time will cause them to bleed but he just can't stop himself; like the person who punches through a glass door in a rage, knowing he will shred himself but not caring. My H remembers most of what he did (though very little of what he said... I think he blocks those memories), and knows he chose the actions; he refuses to cop to mental illness. But as another poster said about his own spouse, my H chose the action, without choosing the outcome. A lot of mindless thrashing, followed by shock/despair/reactive anger, followed by more mindless thrashing. I don't acquit my H of causing me pain; I think he caused himself a nearly equal amount of pain; and it was no more reasoned through than a rabbit caught in a trap. But of course he's not a rabbit; and whether he chose it or not, he owns all of it, volitional or reflexive.

That is precisely why, when my H returned, Sorry was the most difficult thing for him to articulate. Still hasn't, really, though he acts it out in every way. In his (idiosyncratic!) view, he's not allowed to apologize for something he voluntarily did, that's facile. He feels he can only try to make it good somehow (...okay, that'll take you years, buddy...).

But that's his problem. My problem? To detach. Guess you can only become compassionate after becoming dispassionate. And once I was at a safe enough distance, I couldn't actually be hurt anymore. It's only at that safe distance that I could begin to decide whether to forgive. And to trust my own judgement enough to let myself do it.

I think there's space for all of these endpoints on HS. Not all of us run through the same stages. Not all of us wish a return. Not all of us permit a return. Not all of us forgive, in the end. Not all of us have to. All of us do grow, though. That's the only gift of time OP refers to, I think.
"You have a right to action, not to the fruit thereof; shoot your arrow, but do not look to see where it lands."  -Bhagavad Gita

Offline beyondblessed

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2019, 04:20:28 PM »
Terrified...... I have to say, I gotta agree with what you've said.  I've pretty much said the same iny own lapsed thread, only to be called "condescending", but hey, we all perceive things from our own place of residence or what ever point we are in our own lives.  I could probably say things in a " nicer", more politically correct manner, but it's never been my way to sugar coat the the truth to make it easier to swallow.

I haven't been back here for months, but I do still have many friends who keep active threads.  I will always urge any and every LBS to cut ties with the MLC'er as much as possible, especially when the hurt and damage they cause far outweighs any possible good they may do.   I am 100% Pro-LBS.  I have always believed it was the MLC'er CHOICE to leave and yes, I absolutely believe they do what they do because they WANT to, consequences be damned because they simply don't care.  That said, I think they are very screwed up mentally, at the same time, yet that is no excuse.  It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it because that really is all you've got, once they walk.  At that point, they may have started it, but it's all about YOU because they couldn't give a damn less what happens to you.

Offline Airmid

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2019, 12:15:08 PM »
It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it because that really is all you've got, once they walk.  At that point, they may have started it, but it's all about YOU because they couldn't give a damn less what happens to you.

Amen!

Offline KeepItTogether

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2019, 07:58:27 PM »
Oh Tn you are not condescending to most of us. (Or we certainly don't take it that way) We understand you completely. Some of us, like Nas, and me,  have battled cancer.  And others still have small children. So, we clearly have different issues. And you were an OM?  So clearly different.  We get it. Thank you for your perspective. When you battle a disease that threatens your life, and/or you have small children, maybe your bravado will change. But the fact you had to come back here tells me... hmmm … Maybe not? 
Me 47
H 46
S12
BD 5/16
H Moved out 6/16
OW--yes. Worked for H. EA turned into PA while I was in chemo. On again/off again like every high school romance

Offline gman242

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2019, 09:45:07 AM »
It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it because that really is all you've got, once they walk.  At that point, they may have started it, but it's all about YOU because they couldn't give a damn less what happens to you.

Amen!

This sums up the point I was going to make. I just don't get the anger, towards either the MLCer or the LBS.

I got to a point where I realized that all the wishing, hoping, thoughts and prayers I was putting into "trusting the process", could have been better spent on me and my own process. When that happened, I stopped being angry and stopped caring about my ex or what she is or isn't doing. Isn't that all that matters? I'm focusing on me.. what happens happens. I don't have a goal other than that.. it's kind of a zen thing.

But the anger.... i don't get it. I've been angry and I've let go and I don't blame people that are angry too. I still find I can be angry, but then it goes away.

 But the thing for me here and to circle back to MBIB... I think no matter what, letting go is hard and for those of us that can sympathize with our MLCers (note that doesn't mean making excuses for, justifying ect) I think letting go is even harder and we get told to "get with it" more that the competition, (so to speak) who tend to high five each other over their "don't let the door hit you on the way out" posts.

And furthermore, for the guys here, those of us that do sympathize with our spouses and have shown confusion of our own progress and "stand", well frankly, "standing" doesn't exist for the peanut gallery. Any attitude other than "don't let the door hit you on the way out" brings out posts about how you're not getting it or you're focusing too much on your spouse.

If I mention I noticed my ex noticed I lost weight as a plain observation, I get slammed for caring about what she thinks. However, if I phrase it like "you snooze you lose b!tc#", nobody notices. And yes, I've felt like I've had to censor my posts so as not to draw that kind of negative attention.

I admit it feels good to think that XW may be missing out, without putting any of my own connotations onto that, but I'm also not the kind of guy to put her down either, aside from when I've just had to get some stuff out. So i feel like there's little balance under normal circumstances.. I can't say what's on my mind without it being taken to an extent I hadn't intended or I have to inject some false bravado to keep people off my back.

To go back to what I was saying, I hope everyone puts all those thoughts and prayers onto themselves and trusts their own process and let's go of whatever their doing. That doesn't mean we begin to hate our spouses at that point.. or because we post something we need to work out, it doesn't mean that we're obsessed either.

Things just aren't black and white for some people and nobody has the right to tell us where we are on our own timeline of healing. In fact, i stopped working with the therapist i was with because she wanted me to be divorced by a certain date and I just couldn't do that. I knew I was headed to this point, where I am now, but nobody was going to make me do it.

If people aren't ready to change, they aren't going to and they certainly won't do it by being yelled at. People with spouses who are being abusive are different.. I just wanted to make that distinction. They don't deserve to be yelled at, but they should be advised about protecting themselves.

Offline xyzcf

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2019, 10:47:18 AM »
gman242

Thank you for being brave enough to post what you did.

To support one another, we have to be able to accept the differences in the situation and the feelings we have for our spouses. Yes, we need to protect ourselves and build a life.

My own interpretation is that some people feel that since I am still standing after 10 years and to me that means standing for my marriage and my spouse for I don't see "standing" as some people do..it is very very clear to me what standing means and that is to be here if my spouse comes through his crisis..sorry if that upsets you folks.....

What I read into some of the posts about standing or having compassion for our spouse of understanding what a crisis is, is that somehow I am not living my life fully. But standing doesn't stop me from living a full and rich life, although that is what is written in some posts.

We are adults, we make decisions about what is best for ourselves and for our families. Respect for one another's position would help decrease the anger and messiness that happens here, in a place that should be helpful to each LBSer.

Thank you for writing what you did.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:06:37 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

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Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2019, 12:29:15 AM »
Quote
I have always believed it was the MLC'er CHOICE to leave and yes, I absolutely believe they do what they do because they WANT to, consequences be damned because they simply don't care.  That said, I think they are very screwed up mentally, at the same time, yet that is no excuse.  It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it

I don't think anyone disagrees with that thought Beyond.   

Cutting ties is hard for those who have young children and a serious clinging boomerang MLCer.  Cutting ties is hard when the MLCer replayer with OW stays at home (as mine did). Not all MLCers are vanishers or leave the family home.

I agree that the LBS should totally get on with their own life and I agree that stage watching is ultimately a form of emotional torture that, in hindsight, is bonkers to do. 

However, in those first few months after BD - helping LBSers understand that they are probably living in an MLC crisis ridden world and that they need to process the shock and that protecting themselves legally, financially and emotionally is a good way forward.

Telling them to cut ties however is so much easier said than done for some of us.  And you can still stand even if you do cut ties.  Standing isn't waiting or stage-watching at all.
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Online Mortesbride

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2019, 04:12:54 AM »
Cutting ties is hard for those who have young children and a serious clinging boomerang MLCer.  Cutting ties is hard when the MLCer replayer with OW stays at home (as mine did). Not all MLCers are vanishers or leave the family home.

Telling them to cut ties however is so much easier said than done for some of us.  And you can still stand even if you do cut ties.  Standing isn't waiting or stage-watching at all.

Amen sister. My youngest is 3. I got at least another 15 years sentence. Potentially more when you start factoring in weddings and shared grandkids.  :o
You know this is MLC when you have played emotional hot potato with a pair of crotch-less tights.

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2019, 04:49:05 AM »
Quote
I have always believed it was the MLC'er CHOICE to leave and yes, I absolutely believe they do what they do because they WANT to, consequences be damned because they simply don't care.  That said, I think they are very screwed up mentally, at the same time, yet that is no excuse.  It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it

I don't think anyone disagrees with that thought Beyond.   



Actually a few people on here do disagree with that thought.

I guess if all of us agreed on every aspect of what happened to our spouses, how to heal, and our stories were exactly the same, we wouldn’t have much to talk about, would we?

I enjoyed this thread. Especially when the “old timers” jump in and discuss different thoughts, it always gets interesting. After all these years I believe there are always new things to think about which sometimes gives me another perspective on how to help others behind me.
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I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
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Offline Treasur

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2019, 04:57:13 AM »
I honestly believe that part of our healing and our strength is to reach a point when we can look at reality with brave eyes and choose our own truth to live with.
No matter what anyone else thinks. Although as Nah says, we can learn what we think by hearing what other heads do especially those perhaps with a little time and distance from all the shocking craziness  :)

It takes a while for most of us bc this is an exhausting and often far from normal bit of life experience. But you do feel stronger when you know you have found on your own truth. And life gets simpler when you do feel that shift.
I think it is important to respect that the truths we find and choose will not always be the same, and we may not always agree with each other.
But the proof is in the individual life pudding imho. :)

All of us know that it takes a darned long time to just even accept what we see right in front of us.
That we don't understand it but it is still real.
Takes a lot my time to stop thinking of them as who they were and start thinking of them as who they are (which is usually pretty awful)...and then maybe a bit of time after that to let the pendulum settle and decide how we see them on the spectrum between past and present versions.
And before then we need to scrabble around to figure out how to protect ourselves and our families as much as we can.
And then eventually we get to catch a breath and figure out how we feel about it all and how we frame it in a way we can live with it all regardless of what happens in the future. Letting go and acceptance have a lot of layers. And I truly think it is harder to do if you are still on the WTF battlefield too.

We get to decide for ourselves who we think our spouse was and what our old life was.
We get to decide who or what we think they are now and how much exposure we want to have to that.
We get to decide if it was some kind of crisis or not. And if we see them as mad, bad or ill.
And we get to decide what we see them as responsible for or not, and how much we blame or forgive or neither.

I honestly believe that the difference between a good wise LBS choice or not is about how much weight we carry forward that gets in the way of making a good different life from the rubble. For some, believing compassionately in the existence of their 'real' spouse and a door on the latch is essential. For others, finding the anger and courage to shut the door on them completely is essential. For some, it is maybe in the middle. But the bit of fight that comes out for most LBS as they get up off their knees imho is that each one gets the right to choose and not to be told what they should think or feel by anyone - including here - once they have found that inner answer for themselves and know why it is the right choice for their lives as they move on from the destruction.

In my case, and it took me a very long time, I trust that something bad and extraordinary changed how my h thought and felt and behaved. He did bad things to many people who trusted him and probably to himself; he is responsible for all of his actions and some of the consequences of them.
I don't know if the 'real' person still exists or will ever exist again, but if so, I have compassion for him bc he looked like someone who blew himself and his life up and destroyed things he had valued for years. And I also know that he will never be anything better than a damaged person if he does not take responsibility for himself or if I make excuses for him. And my door had to close bc I had to accept that he would hurt me more if I let him.

I suppose the big question I came here trying to answer was could I trust my own reality which now included incomprehensibly a h who apparently hated me enough to wish I was dead.

But, for me, it was unliveable with to either believe that the much-loved husband I knew was never real or to spend the rest of my life hating him.....so I choose to believe essentially that he became mentally ill, dangerous and metaphorically died. I choose to invest nothing in that person, think fondly and with compassion of who he was and the 'demons' that broke him and have no expectation of him ever becoming something better again bc I can't know.

But if he does, and he ever asks for my help or acceptance...as long as it doesn't damage me or my life...I will show it by respecting him enough to be kind in how I let him tackle his own burdens from what happened and what he did. And even if I never see or hear from him again, I will always hope that what he became is not the best that he can do and be as I would hope others would want for me to be more than the shellshocked grieving LBS version of myself.

Bc, although it is easy to doubt it in our own situation, looking from a distance most of these spouses have become destructive, unhappy, weak, lost half-people and no one would wish that on anyone they once loved I think.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 06:19:07 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2019, 05:15:47 AM »
Quote
Actually a few people on here do disagree with that thought.

Which thought Nah?  If you look at it specifically Beyond came up with more than three thoughts.

It is the MLCer's choice to leave - they choose to leave the marriage the moment BD happens. Leaving physically is a different thing whether the LBS kicks them our or they walk "voluntarily"

They do so because they want to - yes true.   They choose to leave the marriage because they want to blame everyone else for their wanting to leave.

The consequences are potentially damned no matter what the MLCer does even if it's an early return - the damage has been done and MLCers instigated the start of the consequences.

Yes they are screwed up mentally and leaving your spouse/family etc claiming this is no excuse. Their depression is understandable but their choices in acting/behaving the way they do is not.

Quote
It is still my feeling that you must move on from here, and start rebuilding your life as YOU want it

Would this statement have made a difference if the words had been "move forward" rather than "move on"?  And all LBSers are advised to rebuild a life for themselves irrespective of the MLCer.   
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Nas

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2019, 05:45:43 AM »
I think the interpretation of “move on from here” is meaning move on from HS, get off the forum and stop talking about MLC. That’s from TNT’s post. And that’s a judgment that not all share. I wouldn’t have made it in the early days if long timers hadn’t stuck around to impart their knowledge to me.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2019, 05:49:55 AM »
Some on here believe the MLCers did not “choose” pretty much any of it. That was how this discussion thread broke off. I asked a simple question on the MLCer thread. I asked (paraphrased) if she (the former MLCer) felt accountable for her actions.

That’s when the thread blew up. Some felt I was out of line bc when she was “in the fog”, they felt she didn’t have a choice. They felt she was compelled to do it the things she did and couldn’t stop herself from her actions.

I’m not saying I agree with the “devil made me do it” or whatever you want to call it,...
Did you read the thread?
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me-52
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married 1986
BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
https://heneversaidaword.com

Offline Helpingme!

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #148 on: July 12, 2019, 06:17:13 AM »
I think if there were not any old timers here we would all be lost. If all were newbies, I can't imagine what the advice would be.
I agree it's good to take breaks from this site if your depending on it to survive. At one point I fell asleep reading threads and woke up reading more. I couldn't function without it.
Now, I read to learn. Mainly to see other opinions and help me to see I'm not an idiot sometimes. I'm normal.
Nobody's post offend me really. We are all different. We handle things differently. But same as some people's choices may seem wrong to me, my choices may be wrong to them. It's just how it is.
Gman, don't ever hold back posting brother. There are alot if people that feel same as you and enjoy the truth. Always. Alot would do the same, but are worried about what some will say. Just say it. As long as nothing is directed at one person in a hateful way, speak it up.
I also agree it's a choice they make. Everything is a choice. Now consequences that come from it??? Well maybe that's what happens, but the original choice they made started it all.
I don't think I'll ever leave this site. I may be gone as He, but I'll always check back in.
I have made some special friends here and yes this is the only contact I have with them.

Online Mitzpah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #149 on: July 12, 2019, 06:39:07 AM »
As I said so before - my h. is responsible for his choices/actions - I believe this.

It may have been 'driven' by his internal dis-ease, and he may have felt compelled to leave... but he absolutely chose to do what he did, in fact, I think he felt at the time that it was the first time he was actually choosing to do something by himself, having been rather accommodated as a son, a husband  and a father.

I see no need to cut ties with him, he is the much loved father of my children, he does not want to be my husband anymore and therefore he chose to divorce me. How I feel about him and contact with him, is my business.

So, yes, move forward and standing is my choice.
M 57
H 57
S 27
S 25
D 24
BD 13 Dec 2010
Divorced 27 Feb 2015 (30 years marriage)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" Jeremiah 29:11

Online nah

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2019, 06:44:41 AM »
Mitzpah,

Sounds to me  like you found a healthy way to move forward that works for you.

Newbies are lucky to have you on this forum.
H-54
me-52
ow-30
married 1986
BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
https://heneversaidaword.com

Offline Nerissa

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2019, 07:35:16 AM »
Some on here believe the MLCers did not “choose” pretty much any of it. That was how this discussion thread broke off. I asked a simple question on the MLCer thread. I asked (paraphrased) if she (the former MLCer) felt accountable for her actions.

That’s when the thread blew up. Some felt I was out of line bc when she was “in the fog”, they felt she didn’t have a choice. They felt she was compelled to do it the things she did and couldn’t stop herself from her actions.

I’m not saying I agree with the “devil made me do it” or whatever you want to call it,...
Did you read the thread?

This always resonates with me.  H told me he didn’t know why he was doing the things he was doing.  He said he felt compelled.  I asked whether not knowing why he was doing what he was doing didn’t make him think that he needed help.  I didn’t add that I think doing things and not knowing why is a marker of insanity, although I was tempted,  since I know these people aren’t that incapacitated.  He didn’t reply.

I’ve heard the same question from professionals - didn’t that suggest to him that he needed support? So I don’t feel I was being judgemental.  I was always staggered at the lack of introspection and self awareness that allows people to be so destructive and not go for help.  I mean there’s plenty available.  I’ve since learned about personality structure etc, and some of us have personality adaptations  more prone to escape into  fantasy or manic behaviour.  I still think it’s odd though, especially when everyone around them is looking aghast and warning them of consequences. 

So whether they can help it or not, they know it’s going to end in tears so why not get some support ? 

Offline Thundarr

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2019, 07:51:06 AM »
I'll jump in and post my thoughts on the next thread as this one is getting ready to close, but I'm really surprised that in 16 pages no one has mentioned the empirically validated concept of hypergamy in relation to why at least female spouses leave in what we tend to classify as MLC.....
One day at a time.

Thundarr

Offline Songanddance

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2019, 08:47:52 AM »
Locking this thread.  This thread was split off from a discussion which emerged on a story thread.
If anyone wants to start a subsequent one then please do so but I suggest that the word justification is removed.
Thanks
BD march 2013
Stay at home MLCer
OW for 3.5 years - finishing Autumn 2016
Reconnection started 2017 through 2018.
2019 is the year of Decisions!

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: An interesting debate about MLC - Justification!
« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2019, 12:35:39 PM »
LP-This is such an interesting thread topic.  I am 38, my hubby is 42 and bd was Oct.  At that time my kids were 4,7,12,14.  So I fit your category.

The rules on this site say to live as if they are not coming back.  Protect your finances, focus on yourself and your kids etc.

For myself personally, I consider myself a stander to a point.  I am not planning on pursuing a divorce and will stay in the marriage so long as it is in tact.  That said, I have protected my finances with a separation agreement and staying married is financially to my benefit.  The kids are no more exposed to the MLC crap than they would be if we were divorced, and my boundaries(as per this site) are firmly in place.  I demand respect and enforce the boundaries.

I am healing and detached from him, wanting nothing of who he is currently.  I am however very traumatized and would be either way.

I very much so believe for me standing really means healing, growing, focusing on my kids, and forgiveness.  I am not a forever stander.  In two years he will be relocated(he plans to divorce me, and I plan to fight for me and the kids financially.  That said, if he pulls an MLC and does not divorce me, but still does not want the marriage, I will divorce him.  As FL has permanent alimony and TX does not.

So to me when this site says protect yourself financially, that can look different for each of us.

Also, protecting our kids is different for each of us.  My husband is still somewhat being a good Dad.  I guess as much as an MLCer can.  We are military and as soon as we divorce I lose healthcare, and me and the kids will get kicked out of our affordable base housing.  The kids would then be moved to a different state from their father.  So, by staying, I am putting them first.  They need time to work through their Daddy issues and that is so much easier living in the same area.

The number 1 reason I stand is for my kids, not myself.  I would be gone if not for them.  But, I can see how if the rules of standing are not in place it can be very damaging to all involved.  I want my kids to see me as a strong capable woman who is willing to have compassion and work through a bad situation.

My husbands mom had an MLC, and tried to come back after two years.  She was denied.  Now she is accountable for her actions, but I do believe had she been allowed back she would have been strong enough to heal.  Instead, she went on to hurt her kids and her kids spouses until this day.  She married 4-5 times, is broke, sick and still lives in a fantasy.  Because my husband never healed, he is repeating.  Their is no one sized fits all answer for the best approach.  In my situation I have seen both sides.  Also, in my situation my kids will live in a different state from their Dad if he does not come home in the next two years.  So the stakes are high.

I could tell several more stories of how divorcing the MLCer still ends in tragedy even if the lbs finds a good new husband.  Because the kids connect some of us forever and so long as they are crazy, it will hurt the kids.  I am only trying to limit that hurt. I do accept either outcome(divorce or reconciliation), and believe either will have severe challenges.  Biblically, I do believe if we can fight for our marriage, we should, but it takes two, and at a certain point, I will move on.
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 38
BD-October 10 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), I believe he is on to OW 2(PA)
BD 2-March 2019-He is getting an apartment

4 kids 5-14 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

 

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