Author Topic: Interacting with Your MLCer What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2  (Read 490 times)

Offline RollercoasteriderTopic starter

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Interacting with Your MLCer What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« on: August 11, 2019, 10:03:28 PM »
Previous Thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10981.0


First, I just want to say that this discussion is great! I am having so much fun reading it.
There are a lot of things to respond to from a few days back--like Ready2Tranform's great post about me needing to make sure I maintain the focus for this forum that I want. Too much to think about and say to do it now other than when it comes down to it I want a safe place for Standers. Does that mean I want to forum to focus on Standing? I feel wrong to say yes because I have always known (wished it were different) that Standing is often a temporary state and most will choose to stop eventually and I don't want those people (most oldtimers here!) to feel this is not also your place...and that is I think where things get mixed up.

Okay, enough about that for now, because I really am posting now to respond about Standers feeling they are getting retaliation and Anjae and LawProfessor's questions.

I don't know specifically and am probably missing some or many of the things that trigger or bother Standers, but here is something...

I believe in asking the hard questions, but out in the real world people often do that with a different attitude.
Why are you doing that?
Why do you want to be with him?
Why do you love her?


Suppose those are asked with a neutral tone--possibly in a counseling session. Great questions. We do need to think those through for ourselves. But as you know, out in the real world people ask those type of questions with an implied tone that you are not making the right choice. Now that happens on here as well--though without the benefit of tone, perhaps we are inferring rather than the writer implying.
Because I think those questions are important when the person asking is genuinely seeking to help or guide the person to look inside for the answers, I typically let the person know I am asking that sort of question, but not meaning it with the derision we so often hear and certainly not with am implied correct answer.

I have also seen this sort of thing as statements--not directed at an individual, but said generally. They look something like this
I don't know why anybody would...

Anjae, I think I've seen you make this sort of statement in recent posts. Not sure if those were the words, as I'm just creating an example of that type of thing.

Leading questions
I'm not talking about leading questions in law or those used by marketers--not that those are not also annoying  ;). Sometimes a person is so certain that everyone must feel the same that they can't imagine someone disagreeing. When Chuck asks questions like that, he is not meaning to lead me to an answer, they are more like statements in question form and when I disagree it can sometimes be kind of funny because he is so surprised!
Don't you think...
You don't want to... do you?

Those aren't great examples, I usually can think of better ones, so sorry.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 11:44:21 AM by OldPilot »

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 12:16:07 AM »
Hmmm Rcr, I hope you are going to follow up on that post because I'm less clear now than before on the questions I asked. 

Yes, it's likely where things are getting mixed up, in wanting to provide a safe place for Stander's but also to want to include non-standers. 

My question is why the focus isn't to provide a safe place for all rather than Stander's?

If it can't be an an inclusive place for both, then would you prefer that all of us non-standers leave in order to ensure safety for the Stander's as in Ready's words HS shouldn't try to be all things to all people. (And I happen to agree with her on that point.).

In fact, I don't see how you can achieve both a virtually  trigger free place for Stander's and at the same time an inclusive place for non-standers and old timers as there is no limit to what may trigger any one person.

You began addressing things that trigger Stander's.  I assume that's just a couple examples off the top of your head.  So it would be easy to read into the meaning behind the post that you agree Stander's are getting retaliation so it's unsafe for them to post.  Is this accurate?

It's also possible to read into your post that non-standers need to either tread carefully as to what they say or how they say it so as not to trigger any possible stander who may possibly read the post.  Is this not an impossible expectation particularly in discussion threads where a variety of topics are discussed from a variety of angles informed by a variety personal experiences, different cultures, different socio-economic backgrounds etc?  Again to protect against Stander's who may become triggered?  Or will you do away with discussion threads?  Or do you have a plan for limiting possible triggers by topic say? 

Finally, it appears you are leaning towards suggesting that non-standers have a responsibility to not trigger Stander's.  Do Stander's have a reciprocal responsibility to not trigger non-standers? 

Steelspine, thank you for your response.  I'm not trying to beat up on you in the following but to make a generalized point:

To quote you,
"But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie."

That could describe both Anjae and myself and quite a few others who are current or former mentors.  I've mentored more than a few newbies officially and unofficially.  Is it fair for you to assume I was not a great choice considering you and I have not interacted that I recall? Am I being judged fairly when I'm not aware that you have any knowledge of my mentoring style or skills? Perhaps I was a poor choice but I'm not aware of any complaints from those I mentored.  Should I state that triggers me or should I listen with an open mind to your opinions and concerns?  True, it's a moot point as I'm no longer mentoring but that's how easy it is to claim someone triggers another person rather than listening and examining the trigger.  If so I would be personalizing your comment to being directed at me when I don't know if it was or was not intended for me and if you meant it negatively or as a generalized comment in relation to what you feel is best.

Perhaps you think only Stander's should mentor? 
That leaves out most of the old timers and a large percentage of the Mod board including all or most of the men if memory serves me, as well as Old Pilot, an admin.  That's fine with me but I'm not certain that is/was workable based on the make up of the Mod board and the number of newbies on the site at a given time

I am not trying to be provoking, just trying to get an understanding of the direction this forum is moving so I can wisely invest my limited time. 

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Anjae

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 12:54:55 AM »
quote author=lawprofessor link=topic=10981.msg737599#msg737599 date=1565579066]
Anjae we both have been around long enough to have seen these assertions before.
[/quote]

We have indeed.

I think the non-standers reconcile thing is new. Or, at least, it didn't used to be brought up that much. I find it something of interest.


I too hope you follow up on the post, RCR. I find a bit confusing and I am not certain it answered my questions.


I don't know why anybody would...

Anjae, I think I've seen you make this sort of statement in recent posts


I may have, but it was not addressed at standers or anyone in particular. It was a broad question on, if I am not mistaken something like are these people worthy taking back, are they worthy of us?

The question was for everyone, myself included. The other one, if I am not mistaken was, why take a cheater back, MLC or no MLC. Again, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, it was a broad questions, for myself included.


It is not just the old timers that have stop standing. There are HS members that quickly after BD, or a couple years after BD, are in a new relationship or marriage. If anything, several old timers stood for a long time and some are still standing.


The other thing with Standing is that it does not mean reconciliation and non-standers happen to reconcile. Therefore, if the end goal is reconciliation, is standing that important? In itself it does assure it and not standing can end in reconciliation.


I would say HS is safe for standers, but for many standing is indeed temporary. However, MLC related issues remain even when a person stops standing. Standing or not standing LBS need support for a number of MLC related issue.  If non-standers also reconcile, they may want to have HS as a safety net in case a reconnection/reconciliation happens.



... though without the benefit of tone, perhaps we are inferring rather than the writer implying.



I think lack of tone a lot of times leads to inferring something the writer is not implying. It is often just a question.


"But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie."

I must say this one let me a bit  :o Like LP said, several Old Timers were mods and mentors, some still are. Many are no long standing, some still stand. Removing the non-standers from helping newbies and others is removing a good portion, if not most of HS. It is also to lose valuable knowldge.

Yes, nearly all or most of the men would had to be left out and even many, if not most of the women.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online Treasur

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 12:59:15 AM »
Was musing on the Stander issue on my walk this morning...

Firstly, a practical suggestion. If it is very important to you that people's responses to your posts should be in the context of your choice to Stand, then why not put Stander in the little bit of text at the end of your posts? Easy for people to see as a reminder who might not be familiar with your history or story. Same reason why it is helpful to see if people have kids, if the MLC spouse is living elsewhere, when BD was or if they are divorced for context.

Then I was thinking about what differentiates a Stander from a non Stander or from those 'If-ers' as UM calls them who are probably somewhere in the middle. Is standing a set of beliefs, a personal label, a context, a lifestyle? Does it exclude or include some issues or discussions depending on which you are?

I remember reading an old thread of xyzcf's called something like 'What I believe' in which she explained her path to her current faith and how that shapes her choices. It was a very interesting read and made it very clear why she feels the way she does about standing. I have said here that I am not standing bc of what I believe about the reality of my own situation and my own wellbeing. But truthfully I live like a Stander right now in many ways...I have religious views about m, divorce was not my choice, I am not dating, and if I ever do I would not remarry..but I also am divorced, have no contact with my vanished h  and do not think of my xh as my h. Which is probably sane as he is someone else's h lol. My focus is on my own recovery after losing my h and other important things in this extraordinary and often incomprehensible way.

My own experience (which was completely shocking to me at the time) of being financially abused, gaslit and personally threatened probably does make me want to encourage LBS to be tougher earlier on actions to protect themselves as opposed to 'Paving The way' for an MLC spouse. I think there is an unintentional trap and a dissonance in believing that we have much influence over an MLC spouse in active crisis. My own experience of grief and PTSD probably makes me more focused on understanding why it isn't always so straightforward to do what you know you should do and encouraging people to detach to protect their sanity over their marriage. But if there is a middle ground that means people don't have to run to file - if only bc an MLC divorce is rarely an easy thing lol - I would support that bc I believe divorce is a terrible destructive thing for most people and families. I think that when I post to support others, it is important that I am respectful of where they are right now and aware of my own biases that might affect my posts. But I wonder sometimes if it really isn't as black and white as Stander vs not Standing and what Stander means in practice beyond a choice to hope or leave a door open for any potential reconciliation?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 01:05:35 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Anjae

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 01:18:42 AM »
Is standing a set of beliefs, a personal label, a context, a lifestyle? Does it exclude or include some issues or discussions depending on which you are?

Good questions. I don't know. I was never standing. When my BD happened I had never heard the term, there was no HS. Also, the term/concept does not exist in Portuguese. I have also always said that not standing was my way of standing. I needed to know I was free to do as I please. Date, not date, remarry, etc. I don't think standing or not standing includes or excludes any issues or discussions depending of which we are.

Discussions are for discussing.

If not dating is living like a stander, then I am living like a stander. My not dating has nothing to do with standing. I have dated and had a boyfriend in the past and dated a little last year. I just spend years looking after my maternal grandmother and had time for little else. Then I needed time and space alone.

Also, for me friendships are more important than dates. The American way of dating is odd for me. I would not have a problem with remarrying, but in my country there isn't much legal need for it since we have other legal ways of protection for couples that lead a joint life. It does not provide the same protection as marriage, but it is close.

I have no religious views of marriage or divorce. I had a civil wedding.  That is not to say I didn't mind with what happened, I did and it hurt big time, or that we ever thought about divorce. We thought we were going to be together forever.

Regarding standers, there are those that are conditional standers from the start. OffRoad being one of them. OffRoad always said that if her MLCer has OW she will stop standing. Most of us, and I think most standers, have a MCLer that has an alienator.

An MLCer divorce? My personall experience is that it is easier to reach a different galaxy and back to Earth.  ::)

But I wonder sometimes if it really isn't as black and white as Stander vs not Standing and what Stander means in practice beyond a choice to hope or leave a door open for any potential reconciliation?


It is probably not as black & white as Stander vs non Stander. Also, since non-standers reconcile, somehow those non-stander left the door open and had hope. Often non-standing is dating while the MLCer is in crisis, but still loving the MLCer and hope for reconciliation.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 02:33:56 AM »
I think that's an interesting point about defining the standers from the non-standers, Treasur.

For me there is more to it, though.

Listen everyone, I am not trying to be argumentative.  But I do have a tender heart for the newbie, and I think that this is the only place where that traumatized soul might have a chance just to breathe, without people wanting their money to "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE NOW!!' or telling them to "KICK THAT CHEATER TO THE CURB!!"

Just a chance to breathe. To collect themselves, to make sensible, measured preparations before they choose the path they are going to walk.


 Is it fair for you to assume I was not a great choice considering you and I have not interacted that I recall? Am I being judged fairly when I'm not aware that you have any knowledge of my mentoring style or skills? Perhaps I was a poor choice but I'm not aware of any complaints from those I mentored.  Should I state that triggers me or should I listen with an open mind to your opinions and concerns?  True, it's a moot point as I'm no longer mentoring but that's how easy it is to claim someone triggers another person rather than listening and examining the trigger.  If so I would be personalizing your comment to being directed at me when I don't know if it was or was not intended for me and if you meant it negatively or as a generalized comment in relation to what you feel is best.

Perhaps you think only Stander's should mentor? 
That leaves out most of the old timers and a large percentage of the Mod board including all or most of the men if memory serves me, as well as Old Pilot, an admin.  That's fine with me but I'm not certain that is/was workable based on the make up of the Mod board and the number of newbies on the site at a given time

I am not trying to be provoking, just trying to get an understanding of the direction this forum is moving so I can wisely invest my limited time. 

Lp

Well, I never claimed to be "fair" about anything (ask my boys).  I was just tossing out an opinion, as we all do. If I could, I would preface "not a great choice.." with "perhaps".

Lawprofessor, if I triggered you it would bother me. I have read everything you have ever posted, and your insights as your documented J's mlc taught me so much that you mentored me without even knowing.

I myself am not a stander.
I was, until six months ago, because, literally, my life depended on it. But as much as I loved my h, I was never very enthusiastic about standing. Too much damage.

My point is not about standers vs. non standers. It is about newbies. There have been times when I felt that the advice given by a veteran was - perhaps - too far removed from the rawness of the early stages for a newbie to connect with, in a meaningful way. 

No, I don't have the time to delve into the archives for cross-referenced examples, it is just a feeling I remember having when I have been reading threads.

As this board gets older the space between the ones who were here first, and the ones who have just arrived, grows. A generation gap.

And I don't mean every old timer, and I don't mean every newbie.

But I do believe that I have a consideration that is valid.
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 02:44:43 AM »
From a personal perspective, when I started reading here I was quite unwell psychologically.  I expect I wasn’t well for a good three years. I won’t be the only one.  So there’s that to consider.

I used tonread the hopeful threads.  I took a lot of notice of the ones which talked about tiny dat to day movenents and received encouragement.  It was sustainingnwhen I was in denial because the hurt was too much for me.  Some posts would jar.  I skipped over them fast.  I knew that they jarred because they spoke a possibility I was not ready to face. I wanted the comforting ones.   But as I progressed, I was more and more able to read the more robust posts which tended to have some excellent common sense advice.

Now on a forum, I wonder if both are useful at different times.  It’s clear that some posts are enabling and rather ‘  marshmallowing’ but they did help me.  Perhaps for a bit too long but that was my responsibility in the end.  I knew it is a forum of ordinary people with opinions.  It certainly ‘held’ me in positive ways when I was not coping.  I wallowed a bit too long and spent a bit too
Much time but I was incredibly fragile.  It saved me from burdening friends more than I already had.

Later in time, I see some posts as enabling co dependence. I used paving the way to continue my own Co dependent habits.  I’m not really sure what rcr can do about it.  I had an IC.  A really good one and she was t rushing me either.  There is no perfect path through this.  We are adults.  We have to be responsible for ourselves.  I believe the majority of posters limo along, using the forum as I did, to hold and carry until we can get up and walk again.  Denial is used when the pain of the truth is too great to bear.  I don’t think we can wrest someone out of that state in a forum.  But we can’t kitty foot around for members who feel stronger  and want more robust support, surely?  And I feel
It’s irresponsible not to gently point out behaviour that is emotionally abusive from a spouse.  One reality is that years spent in a marriage produces blind spots and unhealthy habits that need pointing out.i for one paid far too much attention to my husband because I was dependent emotionally and financially.  I gave up all Autonomy and I was struggling badly when it went wrong.  I needed to have people comment on this and when it stung I knew there was a truth I needed to absorb.

But in the end, this forum is made up of the folks who post.  It’s us.  we are all a little bit mad one way or another so we can’t expect perfection.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 02:46:34 AM »
Listen everyone, I am not trying to be argumentative.  But I do have a tender heart for the newbie, and I think that this is the only place where that traumatized soul might have a chance just to breathe, without people wanting their money to "SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE NOW!!' or telling them to "KICK THAT CHEATER TO THE CURB!!"


But where exactly does this happen?  I don’t recognise it. I think people let the new person lead the way.

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 02:48:14 AM »
I meant elsewhere, not HS.

My evolution here was similar to yours, Nerissa. I doubt I could have handled the hard probabilities earlier than I did.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 02:53:30 AM by SteelSpine »
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 02:51:19 AM »
I meant elsewhere, not HS
[/quote

Sorry - I didn’t read properly before posting. I agree with you.

Online Treasur

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 03:05:03 AM »
I think sometimes it is quite hard for a middle/old timer to be exposed to the deep pain and confusion of a newbie. Not bc we don't remember it but bc we do. I know now I see newbies post things and it is like looking back at myself and some of my own assumptions that proved to be so damaging to me just as Nerissa says. The 'but my spouse would never do x' or 'how can he/she do x' or 'but our relationship was special'.....

It is tempting sometimes to just not step in.
At other times you feel so worried about someone's wellbeing when you see a scream of pain that you really want to virtually hold them.

I think it is quite a difficult balance. The LBS vet can see things from a distance albeit through the bias of their own experience and there is a kind of hope and comfort in that. But the LBS vet probably sees and knows things that the newbie has not yet discovered about the experience. Not always but often. So, we know that most MLCers have affairs...no matter if they were faithful spouses before. We know that most lie about mostly everything and it is crazymaking. We know that if an MLCer says they will do x on Tuesday, the chances are high that it won't happen. We know that many spend money like water with no thought of the consequences. We know that they become staggeringly self-centred. We know that things will usually get much worse before they get better. Are these things always true? No...but more often than not in our collective experience. And tbh there is a bit of an LBS script too isn't there? And the horse to water principle and time?

So, as a more experienced head - and I completely agree with you Steel about time to breathe, about being able to respond rather than react - it is not always easy to responsibly point out the potential danger zones whilst also comforting and validating. Some vets, and I think LP is one (and like you I found her old posts invaluable too) choose not to interact with newbies whereas others like Thunder do. Maybe different folks add different value on HS at different stages? There probably is a generation gap as you say that works both ways maybe.

Maybe if we think a vet is being a bit heavy handed or too directive, someone like you could post to rebalance that if you see it? I guess the thing that seems important to me about newbies is that they are traumatised and that makes them maybe overly vulnerable to treating either RCR or others as 'gospel' to follow before they have had time to catch their own breath and see their own wood for the trees. As Nerissa says most of us come here fragile and wounded....but the vets are also living proof that we will not always feel how we feel right now, that there may be scars that folks in RL don't always get but there is also hope for a life beyond this time.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:08:36 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 03:17:13 AM »

Maybe if we think a vet is being a bit heavy handed or too directive, someone like you could post to rebalance that if you see it?

I see what you did there!

I should. You are right.
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Thunder

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 04:41:51 AM »
I loved your post, Nerissa.  I so agreed with what you said.

RCR, do you want to start a new thread, or continue on with this one? 
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 05:03:29 AM »
I think it I had read RCR's words that she wanted this to be a safe place for standers a year ago, I would have been all gung ho about it.

Now, I'm not sure. I've been having long discussions with another stander lately. I won't say anything more than that to protect this person's privacy, but we have revised our thinking on all things MLC during this discussion.

Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc. A person can be stander for one reason but not necessarily agree with the reasons that others stand. Some people have at-home MLCers and are standing, others have MLCers who are divorced and remarried. I do not think all standing is created equally.

But more importantly is that we seem to be expected here to blindly support someone simply because they are a forum member. That seems to have even grown to supporting the opinions of MLCers who join! Which personally I think is like letting the fox into the henhouse to advise the hens about anti-fox security. But I digress.

Through my discussion with my friend, we have noticed that there are some standing LBSes whose own description of their relationships led us to the conclusion that their "MLCers" (I put it in quotes because in some cases we are not convinced 100% they are dealing with MLC) might actually be better off without the LBS because the LBS appears to be the bad half of a bad marriage. So it is hard for me to get behind the idea of supporting all standers when based on their own descriptions of themselves, those standers appear to be abusive towards their spouses in some way.

There are standers who believe standing is a moral imperative. There are some of us standers who believe it is a choice, one of several valid choices a person can make in response to a spouse with MLC. And there are even some of us standers who believe that standing beyond a divorce is not a good thing, for several reasons.

My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Nerissa

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 05:07:20 AM »
My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?

Should she have to?  I think if the flavour of this forum is unpalatable, we can go to others  which suit us better.  I wouldn’t remain If I couldn’t get behind a majority of posters to some extent st least.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 05:49:09 AM »
Sure, I can see your point. But I also feel I can get behind some people on here who have chosen to divorce as well. And I am glad they are here, because let's face it, standing is sort of an oddball choice and is not the norm and personally I don't think it should be promoted over any other choice, and I think it is helpful to have people here who have chosen not to stand to remind us all what our options are, even if we don't choose them. I feel supportive toward those who are making what I consider to be "good" choices for themselves and their spouses, and that differs from case to case, and may be standing or may not be.

I did not come to this forum because it was for standers. I came to this forum because it was about MLC. Yes, it was specifically for standers in those days but that really was not what attracted me here. Now, there are some who may not even have MLCers but some forum members will say that it they should be supported in being here just as much as those who don't have MLCers.

If you want to take an inclusive approach, then you would have to welcome all who are having some sort of marriage difficulties. If you want to be very narrow about it, you would have to focus on standers with MLCers. The former to me seems to dilute the purpose, and the latter seems to be a bit too strict. I'm not saying i have an answer to how you strike a balance. But just pointing out it isn't black and white.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 05:54:11 AM »
And I just wanted to add, that to me the biggest value of this forum is NOT the forum as a whole, but as a place where I was able to connect with a handful of other LBSes whose situations in some way was similar to mine that I have developed a friendship with and we support one another outside of the forum.Those people are far more valuable to me than the entire forum put together. I don't need the entire forum to be likeminded or even supportive of my views. And I think having diversity in the forum is helpful in that regard because that means anyone wandering in here is likely to find a few others that they can rely on in that manner.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline megogirl

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2019, 06:09:53 AM »
Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc.

NYM

I am confused.  What do you mean by "prove a point?"

What point does Standing prove? 

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2019, 06:19:54 AM »
My question for RCR is how do you balance a person's right to their own perspective and moral values with the idea that this is a supportive forum for all standers?

Should she have to?  I think if the flavour of this forum is unpalatable, we can go to others  which suit us better.  I wouldn’t remain If I couldn’t get behind a majority of posters to some extent st least.

Well I think she almost has to after the post last night.

Some have suggested different forum boards for Stander's and for non-standers.  This was met with a no and a couple Standers posted objections on the mod board.

Some suggested a separate board for newbies vs old timers.  Once again a no.

And now the topic comes up again about the safety of Stander's combined with the safety of newbies this time.  I have to wonder just how long before another group is added to the list and there is even less room for an old-timer to participate here with anything substantive.

I tried last night to understand the concerns and see things from another perspective without getting irritated.  This morning after some thought I'm less inclined to do so and moving to the Why bother camp because frankly it's not worth the aggravation particularly with no firm direction or resolution.

No Steelspine you didn't trigger me.  And I wouldn't have  replied if I didn't think you have a right to your opinion even if I don't necessarily agree with it in full.

I'm simply tired of having to be responsible for another's triggers, tired of the implied suggestion that it's myself and similar others that need to change their style because someone somewhere that may possibly read my writing may in some unforseen way be triggered by a comment versus the person who is being triggered owning any responsibility for their reactions and reactivity.  Yes, I am personalizing this because if it's OK for others, it must be OK for me as well,

Frankly, under that structure I don't see anyway to have substantive discussions.  Which, from my perspective leaves me further in the Why bother camp.

Not so long ago it was RCR who repeatedly said if something triggers you, you have a responsibility to address the trigger, to find out the why and address it.  I guess that's no longer in vogue.  It's all about a safe place when so far there seem to be no examples of this being unsafe for anyone just a lot of feelings, perceptions, and what ifs and concerns that may or may not be valid.  We just don't know.

What I do know though is that until I hear something more definitive than that post last night,  I'm in the Why bother camp happily enjoying the return of my retirement from actively posting on this site because I'm not about to try to please everyone under these strictures and certainly don't have the time or desire to tailor my responses based on an impossible set of unknowns.  See, that makes it unsafe for me to post here.  (Kidding...in some ways). 

I wish you all well.

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2019, 06:29:07 AM »
Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc.

NYM

I am confused.  What do you mean by "prove a point?"

What point does Standing prove?

Well I never said standing proves anything, so maybe you can answer your own question. I didn't even use the word "prove" so I think you might find the source of your confusion right there to begin with.

I simply wanted to lay the foundation for what I was about to say in the following paragraphs. That when we talk about standing, it isn't always the same thing as people have different motivations as to why they stand and stand under very different circumstances.

Just to add to LP's point as well. I sort of straddle the fence on this. I do believe that others can upset or hurt us or even trigger us. But then we have a choice, we can start pointing fingers and throwing tantrums and trying to get the person to shut up or put on moderation or deal with it with grace and self-control and realize that the person who triggered us is not the person who created the mental state within us that led to our being triggered. We have a choice, be the better person or lash out. And really to be constantly responding to triggers is kind of like what our MLCers do and so really if they must fix their own problems, then maybe some LBSes should do the same.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 06:35:20 AM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline stillbaffled

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2019, 06:41:18 AM »

But what I also see is that a long term LBS, who has healed from whatever abuse they have endured and is in no way standing, is not a great choice to give advice to a shell-shocked newbie.


After reading this entire thread and having not posted on it at all, statements like the one above might mean it's time for me to exit this forum. 

After all, tomorrow is another day.
Together 16 years - married 6
BD - 1/1/16 - his 53rd birthday
His divorce final 7/16
Married OW - 7/17
a consistent semi-vanisher in the same small town

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2019, 06:49:30 AM »
Holy cow. I have hurt a lot of people's feelings with one sentence.

Really sorry. This was never my intention.
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD  - PA - OW: 49, 3 divorces, no children
8/16 - Separated - I kicked him out; he moved into his
          shop
8/17 - BD2 - H employs OW at his shop, three
          blocks from my home
5/18  - H gets OW a new job, two blocks from my
           home. Keeps trying to break up with her
8/18 - BD3 - H says he wants his wife and family back,
          then decides to move in with OW two weeks
          later
10/18 - H back to living at his shop most of the time,
            but OW still around
2/19 - Immigration issues resolved, so D now
          possible.  H is welcome to file.

Offline Nas

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2019, 07:00:39 AM »
Just as a foundation, I want to make a point that there are various reasons people stand. Religion, love, financial, to prove a point, etc.

NYM

I am confused.  What do you mean by "prove a point?"

What point does Standing prove?

Well I never said standing proves anything, so maybe you can answer your own question. I didn't even use the word "prove" so I think you might find the source of your confusion right there to begin with.



I hope to join this conversation later (here or on the next thread, because I have LOTS to say but am unable to atm)

But this talking in circles causes a lot of the issues in discussion that devolve into - sorry, can't think of another word right now - pissing matches.
You did use the word "prove" - it's right there in your quote.
Why say you didn't even use the word, which only confuses everyone and takes the conversation completely off the rails?

I have so much to say on the topic of triggers, but I'm in agreement that triggers are about us and are ours to work through.
I also think we expect too much of this forum if we think it can be geared to our personal needs and only our personal needs.
And we also can't expect the forum to moderate to the point that none of us get our feelings (which we are responsible for) hurt or experience discomfort with ideas.

Hope to be able to share my more well-thought-out thoughts later...
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2019, 09:02:29 AM »
OK, well now I was confused. I said "make a point" in the first sentence and I thought that is what she was referring to.

As to my comment on "proving a point" an example would be the one that LP gave earlier of the woman who was "standing" simply so she could reject her H if and when he returned.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Nas

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2019, 09:12:55 AM »
Thank you for clearing up that confusion.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline strawberry

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2019, 10:11:33 AM »
Nerissa’s post and treasures follow up are perfect and pretty much reflect my thoughts.  Newbies that come here have no idea what they want, are usually in shock and don’t no which way is up and which is down.  I see responses that range from over coddling to overly harsh and then some that strike the right balance.  I was personally able to take what I needed to hear at the moment and ignore what I found less helpful but I’m not sure everyone is in that state.  But I was also being gaslit to a point that I had no idea how bad things for me were at the time and as Anjae likes to point out, it was probably a bit easier because I was mostly financially self sufficient.  I think that is unusual.

I think both the black and white stander and non-stander voice as well as the more grey tone ones are helpful and valid.  But I also thing some of the newbies responding to newbies are a bit on the extreme of enabling and sometimes the old timers that have seen too much are too harsh.  No one needs to hear that it’s going to all be okay and the MLC will most definitely come back to you or that their MLC has some brain disorder and they need to divorce right away on their fist week here.  They need a balance of first things first most times: safety, finances, self care, parental care when their are children.  They can decide if they are standing later.  They can decide to divorce or not later.  Most are not in any fit mental state to be making those kinds of life decisions anyway.
H: 43
M: 44
M: 2003, T: 2001, Friends: 1996
No kids
2 dogs, 2 cats
BD1 (Summer 2014) "We aren't happy, I should move out, we should divorce"  Nothing happened.
Nov 2014 we moved across the country for H's job
BD2 (July 2015) "I'm not happy.  I want a divorce"  H moves out for 2 weeks.
BD3 (Nov 2017) H takes a new job 2 hours away and moves out.
BD4 (September 2018) OW2 discovered despite claims there has never been one.  She outs MOW1 and discloses that H filed for Divorce, but has not served me.  OW2 dumps him.
Currently "dating" to see if we have anything to salvage.  Divorce on hold (unofficially).

Offline megogirl

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2019, 11:22:00 AM »
As to my comment on "proving a point" an example would be the one that LP gave earlier of the woman who was "standing" simply so she could reject her H if and when he returned.

LOL!!!

This is a.k.a. "Standing for Spite."

Online Mortesbride

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2019, 08:38:11 AM »
Oh boy howdy what a jumble.  :o

I think RCR had a really good point about tone.

Tone is lost on this website a lot. A tough question asked gently, with a hand sat on yours and a soft smile...means something completely different if asked with arms crossed and a huge frown.

Similar things happen with sarcasm and humour.

That then devolves into people missing the point, and arguing semantics over definitions of words...to the point that the original topic or post isn't even discussed...instead we are arguing definitions of words that every adult here knows. Then people get offended or triggered.  :o

I don't think it is possible to make every single person happy and trigger free. I don't think information should be filtered or changed to 'suit' one group.

We are all LBS (and a few MLCers). We all get hit with an explosion...then we have to figure out our journey. Some of us are permanent standers, temporary standers, 'F you MLCers', and some are 'moved on and happy'. I think it is important to hear stories from all outcomes on this website for newbies.

The most important thing to feel during this mess was the ability to have control over your life, and choice. BD feels like an out of control natural disaster. Your entire world is upended. Knowing that you can take back control (or as much as anyone can) and that you have options was a life line. If you want to stand for your one true love...good for you do it. If you are tired of his $h!te?...well walk away and make yourself the best you possible. Just because they choose a path you didn't doesn't mean they are different. We all start off the same, and then we get the power of choice back.

I don't think we have to filter, and alter, and dumb down the website to ''only be standers'' or ''covenant keepers'' or ''Happily Divorced''. If there are no longer groups...it looks like it is no longer a choice. IF only standers are allowed, a LBS may feel they do not fit in because they can not stand forever...or there was violence or whatever.

Variety is important because it gives us various perspectives, and a view into what our different choices can be.  :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:41:02 AM by Mortesbride »
You know this is MLC when you have played emotional hot potato with a pair of crotch-less tights.

Offline Nas

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2019, 08:46:22 AM »
Great post, Mort.  I totally cosign this.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online Treasur

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2019, 08:52:07 AM »
Going back to the Pave the Way question....a thought just occurred to me...do we see it as Tactics or Strategy? I wonder if at first some of us read it as Tactics...things I can do to control or influence or cope with this unholy incomprehensible mess. But maybe used wisely, these things become more of a choice about our personal Strategy for how we will live through and past the mess? I suspect too that most LBS responses are fairly predictable initially...but what differentiates us in the way Morte describes is the Strategy and direction we choose for ourselves and our families? Just a thought fwiw.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2019, 10:41:56 AM »
I did not see Paving as a strategy, even though I believe(d) it to be a Standing action. It was always going to be the MLCer's choice whether or not he took the path paved, but the path was nevertheless there. It was or would have been created with kindness, forgiveness, and a willingness to reconnect the marriage. That was much earlier on in the pre-D boomerang days for me.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Anjae

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2019, 04:34:43 PM »
Paving The Way is not the end goal, reconciliation, it is part of it. Therefore, I would say it is a tactic.


Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Evermore

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2019, 04:27:41 PM »
“The most important thing to feel during this mess was the ability to have control over your life, and choice. BD feels like an out of control natural disaster. Your entire world is upended. Knowing that you can take back control (or as much as anyone can) and that you have options was a life line. If you want to stand for your one true love...good for you do it. If you are tired of his $h!te?...well walk away and make yourself the best you possible. Just because they choose a path you didn't doesn't mean they are different. We all start off the same, and then we get the power of choice back.

I don't think we have to filter, and alter, and dumb down the website to ''only be standers'' or ''covenant keepers'' or ''Happily Divorced''. If there are no longer groups...it looks like it is no longer a choice. IF only standers are allowed, a LBS may feel they do not fit in because they can not stand forever...or there was violence or whatever.

Variety is important because it gives us various perspectives, and a view into what our different choices can be.”

Replying on phone so I apologise for brevity (and any possible abruptness). Agree with the above. As a newbie I was (am!) traumatised but not stupid. I don’t want to be told what I ‘must’ do. I want suggestions on options, stories of what has happened with others, how they coped and what ‘worked’ to help them through (wherever they ended up), and knowledge about ‘what he might do (as a MLCer)’. I want choices and the option to take whatever choice I want without feeling judged for having made that choice at that time. And indeed, I want the option to change my choice as my journey evolves, without fearing ‘I told you so’s. I think, for the most part, this is what I have received here, and I’m very grateful. Giving ‘you must do this!’ advice to a newbie I personally don’t think is actually very helpful as it adds to their stress if they choose not to (or can’t at that time) take onboard that advice.
M: 49
H: 51
Married 20yrs, together 23yrs
D: 20
D: 18
BD (that I didn't recognise as such) Easter 2018
BD 9th Sep 2018
OW (44) - he met her in the pub a week before BD, told me about her a week after BD. Thinks 'their planets have collided' because 'their eyes met across the room' and they had an 'instant connection'. Lives with her. Is building a life with her.

Offline toomanytearss

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Re: What do you think it means to Pave the Way - 2
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2019, 08:56:57 PM »
I wholeheartedly am in line with how Evermore sees this. That doesn’t make me “right” or “wrong”.  It is only how I feel. I will never forget what I felt when I came here for help and understanding. I will never forget the people that helped to lift me up. Each one different. Some I have seen called enablers here. Some called too harsh. Some just right. I see it differently.

Those “enablers” held my hand when I desperately needed it. They shared my pain and gave me a safe place to land. Those that were too “harsh” pushed me to find my strength. Take a good look at my own actions. And those who found “balance” helped me find my center. To find trust in myself.

At different times through this some I needed more than others. Sometimes I felt hurt by something I perceived as harsh when I was not in the best place. Sometimes I got mad when I felt I needed direction and a kick in the ass and got empathy instead.

I still go through that. Lol!!

This is a process and it’s not a straight line. Are there times I think something is said that shouldn’t be. Absolutely. But that is because we each are individuals and see things and handle things differently. We are not gonna agree on everything. That is life. I’ve learned a lot by working to understand this and to let things go that don’t feel right to me and make my own decisions.

I do believe also that we have a responsibility to think of where the other person is before we answer. In the tone we use. I haven’t posted on someone’s thread in a very long time because I don’t know how to help. I post on my thread to share my story and hope that it helps someone find their way.

I read others posts to help myself as well. When people post on my thread even though I’m an old timer at this point I still go through the same emotions as I did at the beginning. Just not so severe. I sometimes am so thankful for the insight, sometimes angry at what I perceive to be and feels like I’m being TOLD what to do and that I’m kinda getting what I asked for because I’m not doing IT a certain way. I have learned to rethink and understand these are just pointed questions to get me to think. But ultimately I will decide what I’m going to do and those decisions are my responsibility.

I will put standing and paving the way, in my opinion, in the same bag. At first. I stood for my commitment to my marriage. I paved the way to try to do no more damage. I never ascribed to being the lighthouse though. Lol. That wasn’t something that I felt comfortable with. But as time went on and I found myself in different places in this drama, standing and paving the way also changed for me. What they meant to me. I now stand for my values. I pave the way for myself. A good and kind path. Not judge mental. Well lots of stuff on that path. And it’s open to anyone that wants to share and contribute positively.

There is much newbies can learn about themselves through us old timers stories. And much we can learn from the newbies. It just seems so simple to me. Respect each other as individuals with different perspectives and make your own decisions from what you’ve learned. And then rock that $h!te.

BD Feb 2014
DONE

 

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