Author Topic: Discussion Questions concerning members who are reconnecting. Do you share your experience on HS or not?  (Read 3673 times)

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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This thread was split off another thread since it was not pertaining to that member's story.


I sure as heck wouldn't be on this site if my spouse and I got back together.

Why, thank you Xy!!

Because I said the exact same thing pretty recently, which was met with disdain.  Like if I didn't return, that I was doing something wrong.

I wish everyone here well.  But, I think there comes a time to finally move on from this site, and from this whole nightmare in general.

I beg to differ. If you have nothing more than a very distant connection with your EX-spouse, why would you be on this site anymore? It seems the two of you are implying that this site is a substitute for a functioning marriage or life until if or when your spouses come back.

I am reconnecting with my spouse, but that means I still have a daily connection with an MLCer. Hence, I am on this site.

When MLC is no longer an active part of my life (as opposed to just thinking and talking about it), then I would move on.

And I should also add some people come here after they reconnect or reconcile to pay it forward.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 03:05:21 PM by xyzcf »

Online Treasur

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I suspect this is right...that there is a point when MLC is in your rear view mirror...either bc your marriage is restored to something healthy or bc you have healed from the damaging impact of someone else's crisis on your own life or family. But I don't think that always means you have an active connection with your MLCer, NYM, even if that is the case for you personally. And I guess we should be grateful that some folks do come here to pay it forward regardless of their own situation as there are different outcomes for different LBS.

Out of interest, NYM, any significance to your name change?
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online xyzcf

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NYM
Quote
I beg to differ. If you have nothing more than a very distant connection with your EX-spouse, why would you be on this site anymore? It seems the two of you are implying that this site is a substitute for a functioning marriage or life until if or when your spouses come back.

Do you know me or anything at all about my relationship with my husband?

No you don't because I don't share any information about our relationship here.

Heros Spouse welcomes all people to this site and there should not be any "judgement" made such as the one above about members who post their thoughts here.

I personally know several previous HS members whose marriages are alive and well who do not post here.

The site functions well for people to receive support and encouragement whatever their decision is concerning the relationship they have with their spouse....paying it forward happens each and every time a HS member gives support, kindness and encouragement to other members, without judging or belittling them.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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Mego and you both suggested someone who was reconnecting would undoubtedly leave the forum. That is the presumption you made.

I'm reconnecting, so according to you, I should have left the forum. Or perhaps that means I am not reconnecting.

I was simply turning around what you said and showing you that it is possible to glibly generalize in the opposite way as well.

In fact, my point was to show you can't generalize. I guess the subtlety of my point was lost in the written word.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 01:31:48 PM by Not Your Monkey »

Online xyzcf

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NO NYM, what I said and what I have said many times before is that if my husband and I were back together, I would not be posting on this site. That's my prerogative and as I mentioned I know several previous HS members who are back with their spouses and they do not write about it here....and I agree with them.

Here is my exact quote:

"Heros Spouse is not necessarily a place where people who are reconnecting hang out. I sure as heck wouldn't be on this site if my spouse and I got back together."
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 01:35:15 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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To each their own.

If I was divorced I sure as heck wouldn't be on this site. I'd be moving on with my life and looking for a new husband. What could this site offer me after it was over? That's my opinion. It's different from yours. Neither one of us is right or wrong, just different.

But as it is, my husband never left. We are reconnecting, he is a lot better than he was in his worst days, but it's not over.

I sure wish that more people who were reconnecting and reconciling were posting here. There's a lot of information and experiences from newbies that have been shared, but not so many from the later stages. It has been said this part of the process is harder than what came before, so one would hope that someone such as yourself would be willing to offer their experience if and when they reached that point. Perhaps it is precisely because the forum is heavily biased toward newbies and offers less information and shared experience for those in the later stages that people leave. Or maybe some people are just triggered by being here. I don't know.

Online xyzcf

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Each reconnection story is different. What troubles me, is how people hang on to every word said by someone who has had a MLC or whose marriage has been restored...each marriage is different and each restoration is different as what I believe is that since this is not about a marriage or about the LBSer IT DOESN'T MATTER unless that person wishes to share their journey...then wanting to know "how you are reconciling" although interesting doesn't allow the LBSer to focus on themselves and what they need to do to build their own lives.

A really good friend of mine who remarried her husband 2 years ago is busy with her life and her family...she doesn't dwell in the past and so returning to HS would not be in her best interest. Oh yes, she was divorced as well.

As you said, each person is different.

I am sure you have read my belief system..that marriage is permanent, a sacrament and that in God's eyes, I am still married to my husband, regardless of his divorce and thus you will not see me looking for a new husband. Nor actually do I need one. I am quite good on my own.

You right, we are very different.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 02:16:39 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Nas

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This seems like a whole topic of discussion that maybe one of the moderators might like to split off -

Because even though it's uncomfortably contentious due to the words being chosen at the moment...
It is an interesting and important topic that others might like to discuss.

But this is SS's thread so I won't comment on it here.
SS, imo, everyone is correct if this is MLC, you have some very good reasons to be both positive and cautious.  And you're doing great with taking everyone's advice with a grain of salt, choosing what suits your needs and discarding the rest.  It's all we can do, really.

Everyone is pulling for you, even if we share our differing situations and offer words of caution. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online megogirl

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Mego and you both suggested someone who was reconnecting would undoubtedly leave the forum. That is the presumption you made.

I'm reconnecting, so according to you, I should have left the forum. Or perhaps that means I am not reconnecting.


NO.  I certainly didn't mean to suggest that.

All that I meant was if XH & I happened to reconcile, I wouldn't necessarily feel a NEED to return.  I was not saying that anyone who is reconnecting should leave as a result.

It would just feel like a waste of time for ME to be here, because it would no longer be of any help.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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No problem if the mods want to split it off. I agree on that.

And I agree with you XYZCF about taking an MLCers words as some sort of guidebook or gospel. Lest we forget, these MLCers were selfish and wanted to be left alone and abscond from their marital responsibilities. I have come to believe that their insight into the mind of an MLCer is valuable, but their advice, which is usually just let them go and don't bother them and don't expect anything from them, still reflects the selfish thinking of someone deep in MLC or someone who wants to make excuses for their MLC behavior. I fail to see how rolling over and playing dead and allowing the MLCer to do whatever they want, and in doing so help them in piling up a greater pile of irresponsibility to feel guilty about, is going to help restore the marriage. Not to mention, it just gives the LBS more to be resentful about, which can't help the reconciliation chances.  Although he has done a lot of bad stuff, I have noticed that giving my H a chance to be responsible even when he didn't want to be was good for his self-esteem. I simply think taking advice from a former or current MLCer is like inviting the fox into the henhouse and allowing them to advise you on how to secure the henhouse from predators.

However, I do find reading about others experience is helpful. I'm not talking about getting advice from them or even expecting things to be the same, but for me it is useful in understanding the process. We can read the general statements by people like HB and others but they are very general and I do find myself questioning the accuracy of what they write about the later stages. Having real stories helps to see it less as a monolithic process but rather one with different possibilities.

I respect your beliefs about marriage. It is admirable that you are unwavering in your stance even though I do not share it. I am not pro-divorce, but I do believe it is the end of the relationship, both marital and otherwise. I don't see it as just a piece of paper as some like to say, it is as real and consequential as marriage.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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For some reason I didn't see Mego's latest post until now and I want to respond.

The thing is conventional wisdom (not saying it is true or not) is that the end of replay and the beginning of reconnection is just the halfway point of MLC and that the second half is harder than the first (not sure if that is for the LBS, MLCer or both). It may be that some see less of a need for the forum in the second half but for me actually the reconnection part is interesting for several reasons, 1-before there are certain things that have been stated about it that have troubled me from the beginning if they are actually factual and I really have always been curious as to whether they are true or not, 2-because I am interested in the aspect of childhood issues and how those play into the whole thing and the fact is a lot of people who are reconnecting talk about how their spouses started talking about their childhood issues later in the process. I am interested in childhood issues as a cause and if MLCers really are not consciously aware of that until later in the process then hearing about those stages could help us to understand how this whole process gets started in the first place. So for me, it is more about learning than support but the more information, the more that can be said about it.

Online megogirl

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and the fact is a lot of people who are reconnecting talk about how their spouses started talking about their childhood issues later in the process. I am interested in childhood issues as a cause and if MLCers really are not consciously aware of that until later in the process

I can only speak from personal experience.

Ex-Mr. Mego always alluded to the fact that his dad "never hugged him."  Admittedly I downplayed it, because I thought he was being petty and overall, my response was "I think you've gotta get over that!"

Little did I know that to withhold affection was/is actually considered CHILD NEGLECT.  Hello....news to me!

Anyway when I first discovered RCR's writings, she'd mentioned that MLC could be as simple as a "forgotten hug."  After I read that - well after Bomb Drop - I read it out loud to him.  He stopped dead in his tracks and did a double-take, clearly struck by her words, then proceeded to walk our ex-dog.

So, childhood crap is definitely REAL!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 04:31:18 PM by megogirl »

Offline Sunandshade

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My husband has been home for a year and we are very slowly reconnecting, I read here daily but post infrequently. My reason for reading are to continue my growth, learn from others where possible and when I post to share my experience. It’s still very difficult and I am still filled with doubts. Maybe it would be healthier for me not to visit and I certainly don’t want to upset anyone with my observations about having my husband home. I hope I am still welcome.

Offline Nas

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Gosh, I mean, where to even start with this?  I guess I'll just go in order.

I suspect this is right...that there is a point when MLC is in your rear view mirror...either bc your marriage is restored to something healthy or bc you have healed from the damaging impact of someone else's crisis on your own life or family. But I don't think that always means you have an active connection with your MLCer, NYM, even if that is the case for you personally. And I guess we should be grateful that some folks do come here to pay it forward regardless of their own situation as there are different outcomes for different LBS.


NO NYM, what I said and what I have said many times before is that if my husband and I were back together, I would not be posting on this site. That's my prerogative and as I mentioned I know several previous HS members who are back with their spouses and they do not write about it here....and I agree with them.

Here is my exact quote:

"Heros Spouse is not necessarily a place where people who are reconnecting hang out. I sure as heck wouldn't be on this site if my spouse and I got back together."

Stayed, if you're listening, your continued participation on this forum is appreciated more than you can EVER know.

I am surprised to hear from time to time: "I know x number of people who don't post anymore but their marriages are restored" and that these people don't post because they're too busy enjoying their restored marriages or want to distance themselves from those awful dark times of replay or whatever reason.
They're certain perfectly within their right to stop posting.

But why don't they at least let people know they're reconciling?  Especially if someone is a long time member of a forum and interacts with the same members for years.  We're constantly hearing about hope.  Hope, hope, hope: don't take away anyone's hope, don't tell newbies to be cautious instead of giving them hope, anything is possible, everyone should have hope, GAL and live like they're not coming back but keep hope in your heart.

Now we're being told that people who have been here for 3, 5, 10 years, seen us through our trials and victories, given us advice and sought advice for years and years and years...would disappear if they reconcile and not even tell the forum that they're reconciling to give people hope?
Because these x number of people who are reconciled but don't post also it seems don't want any of their current forum member friends to simply make a brief statement like, "I heard from so and so who used to post and is now rebuilding their marriage and no longer posting; that's all I know, I can't speak for them and they would like their privacy respected, but just passing it along so you can have some hope."

Let's look at that realistically.  Years and years of talking about this with the same people, and then if the MLC spouse wants back in, people won't stick around this forum?  Like this forum and all the people on it who have helped you and who you've helped (the royal YOU, meaning all of US) will no longer matter?
Here's where I'll make a badly timed joke (but it makes me laugh): I kinda feel like the side piece.  hahaha.

Anyway, I for one am damn happy RCR, Stayed, BBHelp, Barbiedoll, Acorn and others didn't feel that way.  Especially in my darkest newbie days, when I needed HOPE and wanted to see that marriages do in fact reconcile.

I don't think I'm saying anything too off the wall here.  I've been a member here since 2015.  Many people know my name, if not my story, simply due to the time I've been around. 
I'm not standing, but if say some old witch from Disney movie shows up and casts a spell that makes the earth spin backwards and all the stars to fall out of the sky and line up across the ocean to spell out my name and all the puppies and kitties on earth to join together for a flash mob dance on a beautiful island with streets paved with gold where I somehow find myself reconciling with my H...
You can be sure, I will let y'all know about it.  Because people here helped me through my darkest days and listened to my newbie screaming into the void and my 2-year growth into a spitting mad she devil and now my 4-year growth into...well, whatever the hell I am now. 
People here walked through hell with me and I'm not standing but respect those who are and if I were reconciling, I would at least yell over my shoulder, "Hey, I'm reconciling!  It happens, don't lose hope, see ya!" on my way out the door.

Sorry, I'm in rare form tonight.


To each their own.

If I was divorced I sure as heck wouldn't be on this site. I'd be moving on with my life and looking for a new husband. What could this site offer me after it was over? That's my opinion. It's different from yours. Neither one of us is right or wrong, just different.



Once again, I'm DAMN happy Ready2Transform, Nah, Treasur, LP, Airmid, and many, many, many others who are fully divorced don't feel this way. 
Nah is literally THE poster child for moving on with her life, finding a new husband and remarrying, and we're all forever indebted to her for her continued time here. 
R2T was my mentor and I wouldn't have survived the early days without her. 

Divorce doesn't erase the MLC.  I'm happy for you, NYM, if you think once divorced you could simply move on with your life and never again have to deal with the issues that MLC causes, but for me, divorced, reconciled, or in between, MLC changes us and leaves us with things to talk about that no one else understands but the people who've been through it.



A really good friend of mine who remarried her husband 2 years ago is busy with her life and her family...she doesn't dwell in the past and so returning to HS would not be in her best interest. Oh yes, she was divorced as well.


You right, we are very different.

I don't see Nah dwelling on the past anymore than I see Stayed doing so.  Nah is divorced and remarried, Stayed is reconciled.  A huge majority of members of HS thank God they're still here.
If your friend doesn't want to come back, that's her right.  Again, it's puzzling how anyone who is reconciled would not allow the forum where they spent time seeking help during the dark days to hear at least hear that they are indeed reconciling.  Again, their privacy can and should be respected, but a simple, "Remember BadAssLBS666 who posted here almost daily for X straight years?  Guess what, she's remarried her H.  Isn't that wonderful? She doesn't choose at this time to return to the forum to post, but I'm sure many of you would be happy for her to hear that she's reconciled and know there's HOPE for you too."

No problem if the mods want to split it off. I agree on that.

And I agree with you XYZCF about taking an MLCers words as some sort of guidebook or gospel. Lest we forget, these MLCers were selfish and wanted to be left alone and abscond from their marital responsibilities. I have come to believe that their insight into the mind of an MLCer is valuable, but their advice, which is usually just let them go and don't bother them and don't expect anything from them, still reflects the selfish thinking of someone deep in MLC or someone who wants to make excuses for their MLC behavior. I fail to see how rolling over and playing dead and allowing the MLCer to do whatever they want, and in doing so help them in piling up a greater pile of irresponsibility to feel guilty about, is going to help restore the marriage. Not to mention, it just gives the LBS more to be resentful about, which can't help the reconciliation chances.  Although he has done a lot of bad stuff, I have noticed that giving my H a chance to be responsible even when he didn't want to be was good for his self-esteem. I simply think taking advice from a former or current MLCer is like inviting the fox into the henhouse and allowing them to advise you on how to secure the henhouse from predators.

However, I do find reading about others experience is helpful. I'm not talking about getting advice from them or even expecting things to be the same, but for me it is useful in understanding the process. We can read the general statements by people like HB and others but they are very general and I do find myself questioning the accuracy of what they write about the later stages. Having real stories helps to see it less as a monolithic process but rather one with different possibilities.



Oh gosh, I think so many of us agree with not taking a former MLCer's words as gospel.  Every one is so different.  But I also agree it's helpful for some to read. 
Stayed's husband's letter is the stuff of legend for a reason.  And it's wonderful how he is so explicit in saying "This is MY story, I don't know you or your spouse, they may be different, but here's how I felt..."
Reading his words has given comfort to so many newbies, but his caution that it's only his story is also so very, very important. 

Anyway, I find this topic very interesting, but also one I've long found perplexing.
No one "owes" it to HS to share any part of their story, and I agree with much that's been said about why people who are reconnecting or fully reconciled would choose not to post here anymore. 
I get it. 
Reconnecting is hard.  Barbiedoll has shared so much of her difficult journey with us and I hope we've helped her some, as she's helped us a lot.
And being fully reconciled, well, I too would not want to think much about those terrible replay days.
But again, the part I don't get is being part of a forum for a massive chunk of your life, years and years, and then reconciling your marriage and disappearing and not telling the people who've been a source of support for you.

*I am bracing myself for the response to this, so let me just say right here, this is how I feel and I'm entitled to feel this way and ask these questions.  I'm not judging anyone's choice. 

I'm bracing to hear myself called judgmental.  And honestly, perhaps I am "judging" a bit here, but to me, I'm just stating my opinion, which I'm allowed to have.  If you turn to a group of people to help you through the dark, horrible days of replay and spend time getting advice and giving advice and having people support you while you HOPE for a restored marriage, why would you not tell those people that you got what you hoped for?

It's an honest question. 

If their choice is not to post, they're allowed to choose that and have that choice be respected.  I fully understand why some people would choose not to post and why others would choose to post.  All different kinds of people, all different kinds of reasons for everything.
My question is only why they don't just let their status be known. 

That's all. 
 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Helpingme!

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S A S why wouldnt you be welcome?? Of course you are. 
Well I'm one that would love for people reconnecting to post more. Well post anything. It seems as if there aren't any reconnecting.
Yes, this time is hard.  It's still MLC but we see alot more. We hear more. Yes, we can actually start to see the pain that they went  thru, not just in MLC but years leading up to it.

I'd really like to know just how many are reconnecting on this site. I'm very curious now.
Ones I've read I can count on one hand. Now, I've seen a couple more just off this thread.

I'd love to know.  If you don't feel like posting, PM me.

For me, I think it's good to pay it forward. I may take breaks from this site, but I always read. I don't post much; but is be happy to answer question anyone has.

To the ones that are reconnecting. I wish you the best.


Offline Nas

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My husband has been home for a year and we are very slowly reconnecting, I read here daily but post infrequently. My reason for reading are to continue my growth, learn from others where possible and when I post to share my experience. It’s still very difficult and I am still filled with doubts. Maybe it would be healthier for me not to visit and I certainly don’t want to upset anyone with my observations about having my husband home. I hope I am still welcome.

You are MORE than welcome and we are here to help support you as well as you go through the process of reconnecting.
Please, please, please do not think it's unhealthy or that you're unwelcome.

And if anyone becomes upset by your observations, that's theirs to work through.  You're not responsible for anyone else's feelings.
But you are VERY welcome to share your story and tell your truth and ask questions if you need to.
There are others here reconnecting who could probably be of great help to you.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Helpingme!

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No judgeing here Bad. I agree with all that you said.
Lord we all would have more hope if we new just how many to end up back together.

Offline Anjae

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I am surprised to hear from time to time: "I know x number of people who don't post anymore but their marriages are restored" and that these people don't post because they're too busy enjoying their restored marriages or want to distance themselves from those awful dark times of replay or whatever reason.

I'm not. I know some HS members that are reconnecting or reconciling that don't post or barely post. We also have past cases. MammaBear, for example. She reconciled, but when she truly start to reconnect, she stop posting. HS is often a life saver for the LBS early on and that is it. Most people, reconciled or not, stop coming around.

But why don't they at least let people know they're reconciling?  Especially if someone is a long time member of a forum and interacts with the same members for years.  We're constantly hearing about hope.

Because HS no longer matters to them. Because they don't want to come back. Because their marriage and spouse and family and themselves become far more important. Because they come back and pretty much no one cares. Have you noticed how little people care for those reconnecting or reconciled? Go around the threads of those reconnecting and reconciled and see for yourself. There are exceptions, but, as a general rule, we have little to say to those reconnected or reconciled other than, thank you for your update or something of the sort.

If anything, I am surprised by those, like Acorn, that are reconnecting and still find the time to post and reply to questions.

We have remarried, divorced, long separated members. Like Nas said, MLC does not goe away because one has a new person in our life. No one is forced to remain on HS. Some come and go, some go, some stay for a long time. It is up to each of us.


You're very welcomed, Sunandshade.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 06:15:36 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Online xyzcf

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My good friend did come back and let people know that she and her husband were back together. A few others I can think of did also. I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying.

The Old Timer's thread is also used by people who update their situations whether they are reconnected or not.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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Nas, while I agree with a lot of what you say, coming back to specifically for the purpose of giving others "hope" I think is NOT a good thing for newbies and I disagree with your focus on that purpose.

Hope is nothing more than someone wanting their spouse back. It's a dream, a fantasy. It tells you absolutely nothing, zilch, nada, about whether you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting your spouse back. Some people here take the hope they are given, hang on to it like a security blanket, and abuse it. They take it as some infallible prediction of their future. That if so-and-so got their spouse back, then they will too, because they have this silly fluffy thing surrounded by unicorns and rainbows called "hope."

I think the benefit of reading other's stories and getting an accurate idea about returns and failures to return, is that it gives you some sort of benchmark by which to assess your own situation to see if it is reasonable to think that your relationship might be salvageable, based on both your spouse's actions during their MLC, and your own attitude.

Having 10 more people come and post their reconciliation stories, if it gives 10 newbies a false hope that keeps them pining away for their spouses for 5 years only to be hit with a divorce and regret it in the end is not a good thing.

I believe there are factors that make it MORE likely or LESS likely that there will be a reconciliation. The problem is someone is going to be hurt and upset when you suggest what those factors are if they don't apply to their case and they hope to reconcile. I would rather see an honest discussion of what helps and what hurts a return without people taking it as a personal attack on them. Because I believe doing a realistic self-assessment of one's situation will serve someone a lot better in the long run than hope.


Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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My husband has been home for a year and we are very slowly reconnecting, I read here daily but post infrequently. My reason for reading are to continue my growth, learn from others where possible and when I post to share my experience. It’s still very difficult and I am still filled with doubts. Maybe it would be healthier for me not to visit and I certainly don’t want to upset anyone with my observations about having my husband home. I hope I am still welcome.

I would welcome your observations. I do think the most useful thing is the stories of others who are at the same stage as you. Yeah, oldtimers may be wise but let's face it, newbies simply aren't ready to hear or apply what the oldtimers tell them to do. i speak from the experience of having been a newbie myself.

I haven't talked much about my reconnecting lately either simply because we are reconnecting from a distance for the past 4 months as I am away from home in another part of the world many time zones away for reasons that have nothing to do with our relationship. So our contact is not as much as it would be otherwise. However, he's been doing really well and we have had a total of one angry discussion (in spite of the fact that before BD when we were apart it would always lead to more and more silly arguments the longer we were apart). He is a lot more responsive, responsible and relaxed. Of course, the proof is when I get back home shortly so I am hesitant to read too much into it all, but I am satisfied with the pace of progress so far.

Offline Nas

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I am surprised to hear from time to time: "I know x number of people who don't post anymore but their marriages are restored" and that these people don't post because they're too busy enjoying their restored marriages or want to distance themselves from those awful dark times of replay or whatever reason.

I'm not. I know some HS members that are reconnecting or reconciling that don't post or barely post. We also have past cases. MammaBear, for example. She reconciled, but when she truly start to reconnect, she stop posting. HS is often a life saver for the LBS early on and that is it. Most people, reconciled or not, stop coming around.

MammaBear allowed her status to be known.  That's my point.  She doesn't have to post, but she at least let people know she was reconciling.

But why don't they at least let people know they're reconciling?  Especially if someone is a long time member of a forum and interacts with the same members for years.  We're constantly hearing about hope.

Because HS no longer matters to them. Because they don't want to come back. Because their marriage and spouse and family and themselves become far more important. Because they come back and pretty much no one cares. Have you noticed how little people care for those reconnecting or reconciled? Go around the threads of those reconnecting and reconciled and see for yourself. There are exceptions, but, as a general rule, we have little to say to those reconnected or reconciled other than, thank you for your update or something of the sort.

If anything, I am surprised by those, like Acorn, that are reconnecting and still find the time to post and reply to questions.

We have remarried, divorced, long separated members. Like Nas said, MLC does not goe away because one has a new person in our life. No one is forced to remain on HS. Some come and go, some go, some stay for a long time. It is up to each of us.


You're very welcomed, Sunandshade.

Anjae, your statement that I put in bold: that's it.  HS no longer matters to them.  Fine, that's great.  But that wasn't my point.  My question was, especially for the people who are always talking about hope, why don't they give hope to the people they spent so long in the trenches with? 
Again, that's my ONLY question.  If you spend years on end on a forum where you stress having HOPE, to then go off into the sunset and leave everyone else to just continue on wondering if reconciliations happen, when you could give them some HOPE by simply telling them that you're reconciling...sorry, I'll never understand it.  And to hear tell, there's numerous former forum members who apparently just rode off into reconciliation, fade to black without so much as a "Hey y'all, dreams DO come true, God bless and goodbye"
- That's my point and what I've always struggled to understand since day one when I joined this forum, because that's how long I've been hearing the same thing: "Lots of people are reconciling but just don't post about it."  HS doesn't have to matter to them anymore and they are under no obligation to keep posting, but the people who walked through hell with them should matter at least enough to hear their outcome.

I disagree with you that no one cares much about the reconnecting and reconciled.  They don't post much, and we respect their need to not be inundated with questions and posts.  But as a newbie, I actively sought out those exact threads, and I'm sure most newbies do. 
The extremely active threads tend to not be reconciler's threads because they don't ask as many questions or have discussions that lead to debates, etcetera.  But you can see how many people read their threads, and it's quite a lot.  Ask anyone if they want Acorn to lock her thread and stop posting, i guarantee you you'll get a huge resounding NO. 

Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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I think the reason some people don't come back is because their spouse's MLC was such an awful period in their life that they want to put it behind them and bury it and forget it. Perhaps coming back triggers them.

I had a good friend on here who was going through a lot of hell with her spouse at the same time I was and we were in contact practically every day. I remember her making a remark once about how some other LBS just stopped corresponding with her when she reconciled/reconnected. And she suggested that maybe she just couldn't handle having to hear about MLC anymore, that it was too much for her, and then she went on and said she would never do that herself.

Well, no offense to my friend if she does come back and read this, but that is precisely what she has done with me too.  ;D As soon as reconciliation really took hold with her H, she stopped corresponding except for a very few brief chats. I am not angry about it, she was a big help that I will forever be grateful to and I have other good friends on here who weren't so far along in the process who I could turn to instead. But it goes to show you that for some at least, it may be that they feel compelled to just avoid anything MLC when they finally can get away from it.

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Nas, I can't tell you how very much I agree with everything single thing you said.

I think this site is special to most of us, it gives every one of us some kind of a connection, whether we admit it or not, we get no where else, it makes us feel not so alone.  There is comfort in knowing people here understand us.  Unless you have gone through this, how on earth could you expect people in the RW to understand.  They just can't.

So to me this is a place to be understood and heard, and get advice from....and feel connected. Find like friends.

My biggest problem is people who say we are spending too much time here and should not spend hours, days and months here, you are being stuck, yet if you look at their profile they are here every day. Maybe not posting, but they are here.
They have not left the site.  So why are they still here???
It's hypocritical to me.

Own that you are also here.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Nas

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Nas, while I agree with a lot of what you say, coming back to specifically for the purpose of giving others "hope" I think is NOT a good thing for newbies and I disagree with your focus on that purpose.

Hope is nothing more than someone wanting their spouse back. It's a dream, a fantasy. It tells you absolutely nothing, zilch, nada, about whether you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting your spouse back. Some people here take the hope they are given, hang on to it like a security blanket, and abuse it. They take it as some infallible prediction of their future. That if so-and-so got their spouse back, then they will too, because they have this silly fluffy thing surrounded by unicorns and rainbows called "hope."

I think the benefit of reading other's stories and getting an accurate idea about returns and failures to return, is that it gives you some sort of benchmark by which to assess your own situation to see if it is reasonable to think that your relationship might be salvageable, based on both your spouse's actions during their MLC, and your own attitude.

Having 10 more people come and post their reconciliation stories, if it gives 10 newbies a false hope that keeps them pining away for their spouses for 5 years only to be hit with a divorce and regret it in the end is not a good thing.

I believe there are factors that make it MORE likely or LESS likely that there will be a reconciliation. The problem is someone is going to be hurt and upset when you suggest what those factors are if they don't apply to their case and they hope to reconcile. I would rather see an honest discussion of what helps and what hurts a return without people taking it as a personal attack on them. Because I believe doing a realistic self-assessment of one's situation will serve someone a lot better in the long run than hope.

You misunderstood me, NYM.  I'm saying a lot of this based on the thread this was split off from, Standing Strong's thread where people were admonished for cautioning him rather than giving him hope in his situation.
So my point was, if hope is so important, and there are these people who are reconciling, why not share that to give someone like SS, who is standing, hope?

I don't need hope.  I'm not standing.  But people give advice based on what they SEE here and most of what we see is marriages not reconciling.  So that's why people were cautioning SS.  So if people are reconciling and we SAW more of that we might give different advice (and when I say if we saw more of reconciliation, I don't necessarily mean in the form of those people posting, but at least hearing, like I said, "Hey, LBSabc is reconciling, that's great, wish him/her the best and hope they post sometime in the future."

My point was, and I suppose this is directly to xyzcf, you were initially upset with the posts to SS because you felt they were skewed towards the negative instead of giving him hope.  But you yourself seem to know of a numerous reconciliation stories (so maybe that gives you hope) but those people are known to you and not to any of the people who read your statement, "I know several former LBS who are now reconciled."

My question was, why are they not known to the point you can name them?  A few people have had some level of an offline relationship with MammaBear and no one would expect them to reveal information about her life without her permission, but her status was made known by her.  So she's someone who can be referenced.

But you seem to be saying there's multiple people who are reconciling but they're never referenced by name. And I've been hearing statements like that since I joined the forum in 2015. Hence my misunderstanding in thinking  they never came back to say they were reconciling.  People say all the time, "MammaBear stopped posting after her H came home," but why isn't anyone else nameable?  When someone like HelpingMe says he's looking for examples of people who reconciled so he can have some hope, he can't find anyone you know about because he has no names.

That was my question.

I don't have any opinion on another person's hope.  Have it, don't have it.  Generally speaking, my feeling on everyone's situation is: Do what's best for yourself, whether that's standing or not, and take care of yourself and be well. 

As for your point, NYM, that reconciliation stories give newbies false hope - that's not for us to mitigate.  Each and every person is responsible for themselves and there's already enough stories out there (Stayed and her H's letter, Moment's friend, Rejoice Ministries, RCR, HB, Newman, etc) that anyone who is going to cling to false hope is going to do it anyway.

It's not our job to keep information from people so that they don't cling to a fantasy and not move forward. 
I read a ton of reconciliation stories as a newbie and also read a ton of stories that didn't end up with reconciliation, and as I moved forward and healed, I decided what was best for me. 




Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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I would rather see an honest discussion of what helps and what hurts a return without people taking it as a personal attack on them.

Problem? What helps one may hurt another. There isn't one thing, or a set of things, that helps or hurts a return.

Your husband never left and you are not divorced. Many of us have MLCers that left and are divorced. What may work for someone with a stay at home MLCer that is not divorce may not work for someone with a MLCer that lives with OW/OM and who is divorced.

Thunder is divorced and reconciled. Divorced does not mean lack of reconciliation. Just like remaining married and reconnecting does not equal reconciliation.



 Also, a MLCer returning/wanting to return and reconnection/reconciliation are different things.
But that wasn't my point.  My question was, especially for the people who are always talking about hope, why don't they give hope to the people they spent so long in the trenches with? 

And who is to say the ones reconnecting/reconciling were the same ones that were talking about hope? Also, even if they were, why is that incompatible with HS no longer being of interest to them? They are not responsible for anyone's hope. Some of them did not spend that much time with people on the trenches. Some have MLCers that returned quick.

I think you are failing to see life moves on. Many people will probably forget what they used to write on HS.

And to hear tell, there's numerous former forum members who apparently just rode off into reconciliation, fade to black without so much as a "Hey y'all, dreams DO come true, God bless and goodbye"
- That's my point and what I've always struggled to understand since day one when I joined this forum, because that's how long I've been hearing the same thing: "Lots of people are reconciling but just don't post about it."  HS doesn't have to matter to them anymore and they are under no obligation to keep posting, but the people who walked through hell with them should matter at least enough to hear their outcome.

Unlike you, I always understood why people do not come back to tell they are reconnecting or reconciled. You and I, or anyone else,  or HS, don't matter that much in the grand scheme of reconnection/reconciliation. The marriage/spouse do.


Ask anyone if they want Acorn to lock her thread and stop posting, i guarantee you you'll get a huge resounding NO.

Acorn is one person. I know from LBS that are reconnecting that they feel people don't care that much because people do not post to them or barely do. People may read, but that is mostly it.

We are not all posting to BBHelp, are we? At most, we go by and say, thank you for the update, or so. Acorn has been taking questions, so there is more action in her thread.

Would I still be posting if I was reconnection? Probably not. I would not have time for HS. Same if I have a new relationship. The time I have for HS would be for the new relationship. Seems quite simple and normal to me.

My question was, why are they not known to the point you can name them?

They may be known to the point we can name them, but we are not going to be talking about people that do not want to be talked about.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:04:44 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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Nas, I can't tell you how very much I agree with everything single thing you said.

I think this site is special to most of us, it gives every one of us some kind of a connection, whether we admit it or not, we get no where else, it makes us feel not so alone.  There is comfort in knowing people here understand us.  Unless you have gone through this, how on earth could you expect people in the RW to understand.  They just can't.

So to me this is a place to be understood and heard, and get advice from....and feel connected. Find like friends.

My biggest problem is people who say we are spending too much time here and should not spend hours, days and months here, you are being stuck, yet if you look at their profile they are here every day. Maybe not posting, but they are here.
They have not left the site.  So why are they still here???
It's hypocritical to me.

Own that you are also here.

I agree with this too. 
Everyone is here for different reasons.  I guess that's part of why I suggested this topic be split from SS's thread.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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When someone like HelpingMe says he's looking for examples of people who reconciled so he can have some hope, he can't find anyone you know about because he has no names.

He can't find anyone because he has no names? Really? There is a sticky thread with links to reconnection and reconcilation stories: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=1872.0

The thread has 5 pages of reconnections and reconciliations. It has not been updated since July 19, 2017, but there are several names there. There is also a link to https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9088.0 - Vanisher - Return Stories

Also, sorting by purple icon both here and in the archives will provide a list of people reconnecting and reconciled. Light purple for reconnection, dark purple for reconciliation.


My biggest problem is people who say we are spending too much time here and should not spend hours, days and months here, you are being stuck, yet if you look at their profile they are here every day. Maybe not posting, but they are here.
They have not left the site.  So why are they still here???
It's hypocritical to me.

Own that you are also here.

As far as I am concerned, people can spend as little or as much time here as they want. Everyone is a grown up. People may still log-in for reasons that don't have much to do with reading or posting. Like PMs or because RCR needs people to log-in for something Google connected if I am not mistaken.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:14:10 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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I think you are failing to see life moves on. Many people will probably forget what they used to write on HS.


You are focusing on something different than I am.  So we're having two different conversations here.
I don't care if people move on from HS.  I don't care if they stop posting.  I know life moves on.  It has for Nah.  It has for R2T.  It has for Stayed.  It has for everyone.  Life moving on doesn't have anything to do with posting or not posting. 

I'm pointing out that we give advice from a point of view that most people we've seen don't reconcile.  If we saw or heard of more reconciliation stories, our opinions and advice would be different. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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What is the benefit of hope though? People may want it, but how do they benefit from it? I see it like giving a diet coke to someone who is starving. Yeah it might fill their stomach and make them feel less hungry, but they are still starving.

I get that some people like hope, Obama got elected president on a campaign of "hope" and an endless supply of stories about Mark in Mississippi and Valerie in Virginia and so on who were suffering from some political injustice he said he was going to change. But does Mark or Valerie's story actually benefit you in any way? I would say it doesn't, but that's just how I view it.

Hope sells self-help products like relationship books and counseling services and I suspect that is how it has seeped into forums like this. It doesn't get you a spouse back.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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What may work for someone with a stay at home MLCer that is not divorce may not work for someone with a MLCer that lives with OW/OM and who is divorced.

And that's precisely why more return stories are useful. Because a larger volume of stories will more likely yield one that is closer to our own. My closest friends on here who I PM with all have some aspect of their MLC that we shared in common that made our cases similar. There are others who are very different. I don't need all the stories but I do appreciate the few that I can relate to.

Offline Nas

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Okay, I give up.
I've clearly failed to articulate myself.

I'm not the one who cares about hope. 
The thread topic was do people who are reconciling stay on the forum. 
xyzcf said she knows several who didn't.  I'm just pointing out that if people shared the reconciliation stories they know about instead of just saying "many people who used to post have reconciled" it would go a long way toward helping people give more hopeful advice, which is why this topic was split, because the conversation started when people were cautioning SS and xyzcf said she saw a negative skew to the advice and that people were giving SS words of caution when they should be giving him hope.

Now we've gotten to a point where no one is even talking about the same subject anymore. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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I got it. It is still connected with life and people going on. Not everyone is going to want to come by. They rather go on with their life. They may no longer remember HS or remember, but not care. It is a fact we need to accept. Discussin what isn't and never will be does not seem logical to me.

I'm pointing out that we give advice from a point of view that most people we've seen don't reconcile.  If we saw or heard of more reconciliation stories, our opinions and advice would be different.


Would it? It would still be a minority and a certain type of minority. Mostly, standers/covenant keepers, people with live-in MLCers, people whose MLCer never had OW/OM.


What is the benefit of lack of hope? How come a reconnecting LBS is telling others they should not have hope?  ???

You now want more return stories, NYM? A couple posts back you were saying more 10 return stories would be false hope for more 10 newbies. Sorry, I am confused.

You also seem to think we haven't been here before. We have. There will not me many more reconnection/reconciliation stories because:

a) Regardless of how many post about them, there aren't many and by the nature and leght of MLC and the nature of humans and life there will not be.

b) Several reconnection/reconciled LBS will not post about it
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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Anjae, you just keep restating the same facts, while that was never my point.
I've already clarified in several posts what my point was, so now I'm just going to stop trying because clearly you are singularly focused. 

I think other people may have gotten what I was pointing out, but by now I'm sure everyone is exhausted from reading the same things being repeated for the last 3 pages. 

We all know there's not a lot of reconciliations.
We all know people leave the forum and don't post.
Those are the facts we began with, yet you keep repeating them.  That's not the point anyone is trying to make.

I had two points.  One of them was lost several pages back and that was that people who post here should really never come out and say "if my spouse returns I won't be hanging around here."  No one's forcing anyone to be here.  You're not "doing time" on HS.  Even though we all understand that life goes on, we all have lives outside of HS, and at a point, everyone is going to decide when it's time for them to move on from here, it's dismissive to say it like that.  "I won't be hanging around this place" as if the people who do hang around this place are somehow wrong for doing so - this place is what saw us all through some pretty dark times.

My other point, the one that seems to have you in quite a tizzy, Anjae, was that this thread came about because xyzcf thought people should be giving SS hope instead of cautioning him.
She said she knows of several people who used to post who don't but are reconciling.  I asked why those people can't be named.  Because if we had more people to reference, we might have been able to give more hopeful instead of cautionary advice to SS.

We can all easily reference MammaBear.  If we knew more of those stories and could reference them all, people might say to a stander like SS, "take a look at this story from so and so who is now reconciled..."

And please, Anjae, don't come back and tell me there's reconciliation stories and point me to the link where they are.  We've all read those.  And I don't care about reconciliation all that much for myself because I'm not standing.  That's not the point.  I was asking about the reconciliations that some people say they know about that the rest of us don't.

Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online xyzcf

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From what I posted on this thread #18. I am not sure how to say this any more clearly

“My good friend did come back and let people know that she and her husband were back together. A few others I can think of did also. I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying.

The Old Timer's thread is also used by people who update their situations whether they are reconnected or not.“
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Nas

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I'm not sure how I could say more clearly:
SS was looking for hope.  You wanted us to give him hope, not cautionary tales.  Could you tell him who your friend was so that, in addition to the cautionary tales we shared with him, he can see that there's a marriage out there that reconciled so he can have some hope?

Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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Anjae, I am not craving hope and I feel that hope is misused by others.

I don't want to see more reconnecting stories because they give some others hope. I want to see them because of what I can learn from them. I am interested in them for their content, not how they make me feel.

So yes, I do think that if someone gets hope from more reconciliation stories simply because of the statistics they appear to show, that's a bad thing. If they read the reconciliation stories, compare them to their own experiences and find similarities, look at the actions and behaviors of the LBS in those cases, and see if they can apply any of those to their own situation, then that may actually help them. I believe reconnection stories are useful, if you don't derive hope from them.

I've just seen so many people put Stayed H's letter up on a pedestal and worship it. It's become a legend. One letter, from a former MLCer nonetheless. It's comical actually. Frankly, I find the letter to be absolutely useless. However, at one point I actually dug in the archives and read Stayed's own story in her own words and particularly the period that came before their reconnection and the beginning of their reconnection and that was 100x more helpful and instructive and relevant to my situation than that letter about her husband's fantasy film life.  ::) Like Stayed I am on another continent from my H, and I saw how she acted in that context and how he reacted. I have seen something similar the last few months myself.

How many women here go to bed at night dreaming of their H becoming another Stayed's H? I bet far more than would be willing to admit. You can dream about marrying Brad Pitt or George Clooney if you want too, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen.

I just think similar situations can yield similar results. Hollywood stories though seem to be more appealing to some. It takes more effort and time to dig and find the wheat among the chaff.

And XYZCF, an alcoholic wants alcohol. Do you give it to him simply because he wants it when you know he is going to get behind the wheel and drive his car after you give it to him?

There is a small number of people on here who I have told that I believe their spouses will be back. That does not mean that others won't come back, or even that the ones I believe will come back will actually do it. I just feel a responsibility of not giving someone hope in a case where I do not feel very confident that they should have any hope. And I can tell you in one case that I did this pretty much everyone else thought it was a completely hopeless and futile situation and people openly told this person they should just end it and that they were crazy to be standing. That person is now reconciled. I should also note they were not a newbie. I would not predict any newbie will make it. Someone has to be in it for a while before you can see any signs of long term trajectories.

And finally Anjae, I do not see my story as a model for all. Perhaps I should use Acorn's sample of one. It's up to someone else to decide if my story is relevant to them or not. What I see as similar in SS's story is that his wife is acting a hell of a lot like my H did right before he disappeared into the tunnel, or as I put it, like a spider dancing around the sink drain. I am not going to project from there what may or may not happen in the future. It's his business to see that for himself. In fact, I think he is getting himself too pumped up about it and that he is setting himself up for a big crash.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:29:38 PM by Not Your Monkey »

Offline Nas

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How many women here go to bed at night dreaming of their H becoming another Stayed's H? I bet far more than would be willing to admit. You can dream about marrying Brad Pitt or George Clooney if you want too, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen.

I just think similar situations can yield similar results. Hollywood stories though seem to be more appealing to some. It takes more effort and time to dig and find the wheat among the chaff.

And Nas, an alcoholic wants alcohol. Do you give it to him simply because he wants it when you know he is going to get behind the wheel and drive his car after you give it to him?

There is a small number of people on here who I have told that I believe their spouses will be back. That does not mean that others won't come back, or even that the ones I believe will come back will actually do it. I just feel a responsibility of not giving someone hope in a case where I do not feel very confident that they should have any hope. And I can tell you in one case that I did this pretty much everyone else thought it was a completely hopeless and futile situation and people openly told this person they should just end it and that they were crazy to be standing. That person is now reconciled. I should also note they were not a newbie. I would not predict any newbie will make it. Someone has to be in it for a while before you can see any signs of long term trajectories.

Again, it's not our job to police people and make sure they're not having false hope.  That's the responsibility of each and every person to do for themselves.

I wouldn't give an alcoholic alcohol, nor would I take it upon myself to stop them from going to the liquor store and buying it because they are autonomous people with free will and they're going to do what they're going to do.

A person who takes a former MLCer's words literally or focuses entirely on one reconciliation story rather than the reality of their own situation is doing so at their own detriment, but it's not something we can or should try be responsible for.  It's on all of us to take care of ourselves.  And yes, newbies are shell shocked, but at a certain point, they get their footing. 

You read Stayed's husband's letter and didn't find it useful but it led you to Stayed's story and you found that useful.
It's everyone else's responsibility to do what's right and what fits for their situation.  Are you suggesting some people aren't capable of doing what you did and that we should in a sense censor information because people aren't capable of facing reality and figuring out what makes sense for themselves?  I would argue that even if a person isn't facing reality, we can't force them to and it's not our job to do so.
It's not our job to withhold stories from them because it might cause them to have false hope - it's not even for us to say what hope is false.  It's for them to decide based on the facts of their situation.

We wouldn't even have this forum or Stayed's story with the information that has helped you so much if RCR hadn't shared her story, which led some people to have enough hope to stand for their marriage.

Some people, like you, want only information, others want hope. 
I would suggest that before you were reconnecting, when things were still unsure, you wanted information because you had hope that you would reconnect.  You can agree or disagree with that - I'm not really looking for an answer.  I'm just making a statement.  I don't know anything for sure.  I'm just saying that unless you had an oracle that foretold of your guaranteed reconciliation, somewhere along the way there was probably a little hope involved. 
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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You're totally losing me, Nas.

She said she knows of several people who used to post who don't but are reconciling.  I asked why those people can't be named.  Because if we had more people to reference, we might have been able to give more hopeful instead of cautionary advice to SS.

And you were told by me that I also know people from HS that are reconnecting/reconciling that do not post, or stop posting and do not want to be named.


nd please, Anjae, don't come back and tell me there's reconciliation stories and point me to the link where they are.  We've all read those.


When someone like HelpingMe says he's looking for examples of people who reconciled so he can have some hope, he can't find anyone you know about because he has no names.


Sorry, Nas. I am totally confused. If we have all read those stories, how is that  HelpingMe cannot find examples of people who reconciled so that he can have hope? I dare say the names on that list, plus the purple icons, provide a lot of hope.


“My good friend did come back and let people know that she and her husband were back together. A few others I can think of did also. I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying.

The Old Timer's thread is also used by people who update their situations whether they are reconnected or not.“

There is also this. Some people come back, post, and then no longer post, or don't post for a good while. And the Old Timers thread has updates from all sorts of Old Timers.

Could you tell him who your friend was so that, in addition to the cautionary tales we shared with him, he can see that there's a marriage out there that reconciled so he can have some hope?

There are marriages on HS that reconciled. Starting with RCR. I am failing what is with the telling about people that are not here when there are several reconciled people on HS. Also, didn't Xyzcf said she knew of others? Didn't I said it as well?

What exactly is the issue? There are several reconciled marriages that can be given to him as an example.


Thanks, NYM.

I find hope very important. Not just MLC related, in general.


I learned one thing with reconnection and reconcilation stories. It is very, very hard. Also, at least to me, in most cases, very off-putting. Acorn's case is not off-putting, but several are.


How many women here go to bed at night dreaming of their H becoming another Stayed's H?

I don't know. I am not expecting a Stayed's husband letter. A letter or a I'm sorry is not relevant to me. Amends are. No, it does not mean I want to reconcile, just what matters to me is amends.

I could be in Pluto and Mr J on Earth. It would not make a difference. If I am not mistaken, Stayed was not in another continent, she run away to a very far away continent. Most MLCer don't seem to care if the LBS moves to another galaxy.

I just think similar situations can yield similar results.

Maybe be, maybe not. If that was mostly so, many with similar stories would be reconciled. That is not the case.


The thing is not so much if the MLCer will, or will not come out of fog/wants/comes back, but if the LBS will take the MLCer back. People would not think LP's MLCer would want back given what happened and the fact that he was physically abusive. He has been wanting back for some 2 years, LP does not want him back.

Even Mr J tried to somehow get close on his silly MLC way. It is not the MLCer that has the last word, it it the LBS.


I have to agree with Nas, if you didn't have hope, why did you wanted information for? If one is looking for information on reconnection and reconciliation one is surely hoping to get there. At least early one. Later, many of us chage our minds on the matter.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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This may sound arrogant, Anjae, but I will answer your question. For me I NEVER hoped my H would turn around, I expected he would turn around. Yes I expected it. That was long before I came to this or any other forum. It was based on the facts of our relationship alone. I was aware of MLC and figured out it was MLC but I hadn't read a bunch of reconciliation stories and drawn hope from them. My H even predicted the trajectory of his MLC and he was pretty accurate, even though I got mocked for taking it at face value and believing it. He pretty much promised me he would be where he is right now in the timeline and he was accurate. Why would I need to hope my H wouldn't abandon me when he said he wouldn't? I still believe he was being honest with me, but I think he got the replay part wrong because he himself was unaware what was about to happen to him.

Now, that does not mean his MLC has been mild or easier or anything. His high replay was far worse than I would have imagined it was going to be.. It does not mean I excuse what he has done simply because he told me in advance. I did not put a stamp of approval on his bad behavior. He was a monster hurricane that spun around mercilessly and I wasn't its only target. But i was probably the only one of his targets who was wiling to stand up to it and not take it lying down.

But to be honest, I felt more secure that we would weather this storm than I ever felt before BD when there was no storm. This situation gave me more confidence than I had before. I have less fear, not more. Don't ask me why. I can't explain it really. But I think the bottom line is who needs hope if you are confident?

However, I am not going to project my situation on anyone else's.

Offline barbiedoll

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Quote
Because people here helped me through my darkest days and listened to my newbie screaming into the void and my 2-year growth into a spitting mad she devil and now my 4-year growth into...well, whatever the hell I am now. 
People here walked through hell with me
.

This is why I continue to post. Because this place absolutely saved my life. Without sounding all dramatic and feeble-minded , I swear, I felt like I wanted to die. I was not going to make it , the devastation was that deep. Countless times I rushed home from work and came here and someone ALWAYS helped me ...even if they just sent me a prayer or a hug. Many many times I was up at 2 am , 3 am ..or all night , and this place was as faithful as my husband was not. It was all I had, it was invaluable, it hit me with a 2x4 when it was precisely what was needed, it made me think deeper , helped me realize I was not alone. I have cried more over this keyboard than I ever thought possible and waited countless times for responses to my posts as a newbie for someone to HELP ME. And I was helped , I am forever grateful and I do try to pay it back. It is as simple and uncomplicated as that .  How dare we "take" and give nothing back?

Quote
Would I still be posting if I was reconnection? Probably not. I would not have time for HS. Same if I have a new relationship. The time I have for HS would be for the new relationship. Seems quite simple and normal to me.
.

This is just BS to me ...really? My husband and I are not Siamese twins , we do not spend every waking moment working on our marriage or gazing trance like into each others eyes. If I learned anything ...he will never be more important than ME ...ever. I will never loose all of ME into another ever again. This is simply a baffling statement

Quote
for some this place triggers them
.

This is very true ...for me. I absolutely experience stomach sueeze and anxiety prior to coming on HS. I does take me back to a very painful time and some newbie posts affect me for days . But I walk thru it because I believe it is just that important .

Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Offline OffRoad

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Isn't this just like people's personalities, though?  There are the people who are loyal no matter what. You need them they are THERE for you. Then there are what I call fair weather friends. If it's convenient or helps THEM, sure they will be around. If it's uncomfortable or inconvenient for THEM, you're on your own, kid. And there are likely some that run down the middle. They want to be there for you, but they are just have too much on their plate right now. As soon as life settles down, they'll be back.

I'm not on here like I used to be. I go through fits and spurts. I haven't reconciled, I don't have a new guy, but I have a crazy great life(for me). I'd like people know know you can have a crazy great life, even if you don't stand, even if you don't have a significant other, even if you don't go everywhere or do everything in the world, even if you don't have a shiny perfect new life, even if you never reconcile or even talk to your MLCer again. It's not hope for reconciliation, but it is hope that it's not going to be miserable forever. And maybe even some fun.

MLC was a $h!tee show, but I survived and got my D through college and got my S through high school and kept my house and got a job where I could support myself and my kids even though I had been a mostly SAHM for 18 years and got a brand new roof on the roof over my head and drive off road and visit cool places and have friends to go places with and adventures to take and coloring books to color and ghosts to hunt and surfboards in my rafters and swords on my walls and fake trees in my corners. I cannot even imagine what it would be like to be bored. I freaking WIN!!!!

Who wouldn't want to share that and give people their own brand of hope?

And if bozo brain ever came back and I decided I wanted to talk with him? I'd post that too. Because I'm the loyal no matter what breed. You do me a solid, I'm there for life, though not every waking minute of my life.

And everyone's mileage will vary. Sad for them, IMO, if they don't want to share with the people who were there for them when the going was tough. But people move on (said every MLCer ever). Why should this place be any different than real life? It's a grab bag of personalities.
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Online xyzcf

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Many many people are here, some everyday, others less so. Some write about their own stories, others respond to those who are new, still others send PM's and even talk to them on the phone...it has been that way since HS started.

Each of us giving what we can.

There is a number beside our names...a number of the amount of posts that each one of us have contributed to HS.

Not one person is "better" than another...these accusations here, telling others what they must do and how they must pay it forward...who gives anyone that right?

Each one of us gives what we can to one another. We form friendships and alliances based upon similarities in our situations. It is not a contest..it is our individual reality.

The tone has become harsh, mean comparing whose MLCer is worse, who has more money, who is the "better" LBSer as names are listed of the "heros" on HS...leaving out many who have given of their time over and over again.

Who are you people? I have never seen this before..demanding that we must do this or we must do that..an internet site...of people who volunteer to help others.....who themselves are dealing with all kinds of stuff in their own lives.....

This..is just wrong.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Nas

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Again, no one has ever said anyone is better or worse for having more or less money.  Can we not rehash that foolish argument that caused  nothing but extreme hurt.
And as far as a list of heroes of HS, if you’re referring to my post, I inserted a few names that came to the top of my head to help make my point. I am very sorry if anyone I didn’t mention is offended.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 09:55:06 PM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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This may sound arrogant, Anjae, but I will answer your question. For me I NEVER hoped my H would turn around, I expected he would turn around. Yes I expected it.

I get it. However, on HS LBS are told not to have expectations. I learned the same with mediation. Of course pretty much everyone has expectations. However, I prefer hope.

Hope was worked when I took my maternal grandmother to hospital several times, until the last time. The last time I knew it was the end.

At BD, back in October 2006, yes, it was that long ago, I had no idea what I was dealing with. I was in my mid 30s by then. I knew Jungian theory, but, at the time, I didn't thought of it. Theory and reality had nothing in common. Later, I google Jung + MLC and landed here.

Since, I sort of discarted Jungian theory. The more I learned about Carl and Emma and their life, the more it seemed a way of justifing it.

If I based an outcome in facts of mine and Mr J's relationship alone, he would had soon be done with OW1 and be back. No such luck. He was not the person he used to be.

My H even predicted the trajectory of his MLC and he was pretty accurate, even though I got mocked for taking it at face value and believing it. He pretty much promised me he would be where he is right now in the timeline and he was accurate.

Your husband had an insight into his MLC most MLCers do not. Most MLCers don't even know what is going on with them.

If I were to believe Mr J back in 2006, he would go and do "this" ("this" was never explained) and soon it would be just the two of us and things would go back to normal. It didn't happen. He is still in Replay. Somehow, he got lost and become too deep in it.

Why would I need to hope my H wouldn't abandon me when he said he wouldn't?

If most of us were to believe our MLCer was never going to adandon us we would be in for a rude awakening. Mr J told me time and time again he would never abandon me. He did. Among other things, he also become physically abusive.

Your husband's MLC/Replay may had not been mild or easier or anything, but is was not like the MLC most of our spouses have.

But I think the bottom line is who needs hope if you are confident?

I would say one does not invalidate the other. Confident people can be hopeful people and vice-versa.


This is just BS to me ...really? My husband and I are not Siamese twins , we do not spend every waking moment working on our marriage or gazing trance like into each others eyes.

It may be BS to you, but it is not to me. It is precisely because I and Mr J were not Siamese twins, nor I would be with a new person, that the time I have for HS, that is my personal time, would no longer be for HS. It would either be for joint activities outside my personal ones, or for alone personal time that, since now there would be a marriage or new person, would be a little  reduced.

When there is no one in our life and we have no kids, all our time is ours. when there is a marriage/partner things change.

Is there any reason why I should have to remain on HS? I believe if is up to me do decide where I want to get time from/cut spending time at.

It seems to me some of you demand too much of a couple/a few of us. Namely, of Xyzcf and I. Not nice. 


...these accusations here, telling others what they must do and how they must pay it forward...who gives anyone that right?

It is a bit baffling that people that have been mods for many years and supported others for years are being told how they should pay foward and being told BS when they say that if they reconnect or have a new relationship they will cut HS time or leave HS.

Sad for them, IMO, if they don't want to share with the people who were there for them when the going was tough.

When the going was get really tought for me there was no HS. My BD was October 2006. I become a mod not long after I arrived here. I see nothing sad in moving on. I also don't think people have to remain here.  People who have been here for ages are being told we cannot do this or that when it is out life and our business. Odd, very, very odd.

I don't think more than what we/have done can be asked of us.

Maybe lying is a better option, since telling our truth seems to upset people?
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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Anjae,  you have wildly misconstrued my posts and you just simply refuse to see it any other way. No one is demanding that you come back to this site if you choose to leave it. No one is demanding anything of anyone. My original post was simply to say that even the people who decide they do not want to come back could at least let everyone know the status of their situation, since we all follow each other through trials and tribulations for years and years.

To be on a forum for year after year after year getting support from people and then reconcile and just leave and never tell them what happened to you, if you have the ability to let people know, why wouldn’t you? You don’t “owe” it to anyone, it would just be the nice thing to do for people who were supporting you for all those years.

What exactly do you think people are asking of you and xyzcf?
 I haven’t seen anyone ask anything, other than me asking Xyzcf to say the name of the lbs she was referring to who came back and posted. Not at all out of line for me to ask for the name of someone who posted on this forum. It’s not like I was asking her to betray someone’s confidence.

If people are sharing their opinions about how they feel about people being here for years and then reconciling and not sharing that they reconciled, that is their right to share their opinion. I don’t understand why people are getting mad over opinions constantly. If someone’s opinion is different then your own, why is that so infuriating to some people? I do feel the tone here has changed a little bit, but it’s more because people are taking things personally that aren’t personal.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 10:09:02 PM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline OffRoad

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Sad for them, IMO, if they don't want to share with the people who were there for them when the going was tough.

When the going was get really tought for me there was no HS. My BD was October 2006. I become a mod not long after I arrived here. I see nothing sad in moving on. I also don't think people have to remain here.  People who have been here for ages are being told we cannot do this or that when it is out life and our business. Odd, very, very odd.

I don't think more than what we/have done can be asked of us.

Maybe lying is a better option, since telling our truth seems to upset people?
Since you quoted me, I see I need to specify that I never said there was anything sad in moving on. I DO, however think there is something sad for a person who walks away from someone who was there for them. That is what IMO (In my OPINION means) YOU don't have to think it's sad. I GET to have an opinion, you get one too. Do you find a need to lie when someone doesn't agree with your opinion? I can't see that as a better option, but you get your own opinion on that, too.
When life gives you lemons, make SALSA!

Offline Anjae

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No one is demanding anything of anyone.

That is not how it seems. Xyzcf thought the same. That demands were being made. That, somehow, Xyzcf and I would have, or should, share our reconnection/reconciliation, new relationship even if we do not want to.

My original post was simply to say that even the people who decide they do not want to come back could at least let everyone know the status of their situation, since we all follow each other through trials and tribulations for years and years.

I got it. And I told why they often to not do it and why.

What exactly do you think people are asking of you and xyzcf?

That we own you guys/HS something. Barbie's BS when I said that if I would reconnect or had a new relationship I would not be here and the reasons I gave to me reads like, yeah mate, you are telling BS because of this or that.

it is not BS. I am tellling what I will most likely do. And what I, and  Xyzcf will most likely do, does not please some of you that think we should do something else. However, we get to decide what we do and why.

I don’t understand why people are getting mad over opinions constantly.

I could ask the same.

If someone’s opinion is different then your own, why is that so infuriating to some people?

I don't know. Maybe you can tell me. You seem pretty upset with mine and Xyzcf's opinion and with what we would do. As you seem with those that didn't come back and update on their reconnection and reconciliation.

I do feel the tone here has changed a little bit, but it’s more because people are taking things personally that aren’t personal.

Maybe be. Or maybe it is because people are getting BS when they say what they would do or similar things. 

Since you quoted me, I see I need to specify that I never said there was anything sad in moving on. I DO, however think there is something sad for a person who walks away from someone who was there for them.

You get to have an opinion. So do I. I don't think it is sad to walk away from someone who was there for them. It is part of life.

Many of those Xyzcf, I and the other mods/mentors, mentored and helped walked away. It is how things are on an internet board. I never help expecting people to come back or something.

I love it as much as anyone else when someone shares their reconnection or reconciliation story. Or comes back and say they are in a new marriage or relationship. Or that they are fine. But that is a bonus.

I did not say I found a need to lie. I said that, since the truth is so upsetting and desliked, maybe it is better to lie. That way people will not be distressed they way they seemed to be because I spoke my truth (or others spoke their truth). I got a BS in return. Really? That was my opinion, and what I will most likely do when the situation mentioned arrived. BS? Seems a bit much and odd.

Even if others may not like or agree with what I will do. People openly say what they will do, they get a BS. Odd.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nas

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No one is demanding anything of anyone.

That is not how it seems. Xyzcf thought the same. That demands were being made. That, somehow, Xyzcf and I would have, or should, share our reconnection/reconciliation, new relationship even if we do not want to.

Huh? I am so speechless over this.I mean, just...huh?

My original post was simply to say that even the people who decide they do not want to come back could at least let everyone know the status of their situation, since we all follow each other through trials and tribulations for years and years.

I got it. And I told why they often to not do it and why.

You did. Repeatedly. The problem is that my question was not whether they leave or why. It was specifically about why anyone would reconcile and not share it with the people who helped them grieve and grow for years. And honestly, it was more a rhetorical question about my opinion on the subject. And my opinion, as much as you may think otherwise, does not require your correction. It’s my opinion..

What exactly do you think people are asking of you and xyzcf?

That we own you guys/HS something. Barbie's BS when I said that if I would reconnect or had a new relationship I would not be here and the reasons I gave to me reads like, yeah mate, you are telling BS because of this or that.

it is not BS. I am tellling what I will most likely do. And what I, and  Xyzcf will most likely do, does not please some of you that think we should do something else. However, we get to decide what we do and why.

Since NO ONE named any names except me when I directed something to xyzcf, how on earth did you come to the conclusion anyone was talking directly about or to  that JUST YOU and XYZ? This came out of nowhere. I’m not at all seeing how you thought anyone was asking anything of you specifically. And Barbie is entitled to her opinion that it’s BS. Once again, opinions are personal and we all get to have them. And express them.

I don’t understand why people are getting mad over opinions constantly.

I could ask the same.

If someone’s opinion is different then your own, why is that so infuriating to some people?

I don't know. Maybe you can tell me. You seem pretty upset with mine and Xyzcf's opinion and with what we would do. As you seem with those that didn't come back and update on their reconnection and reconciliation.

I am upset with you because you once again a)  beat a dead horse to the point of complete exhaustion and b) when you say “you seem to not understand…” It’s incredibly rude and condescending. I let it pass without comment earlier. But no, I don’t respond well when people speak to me that way, or when people speak to anyone that way.

I do feel the tone here has changed a little bit, but it’s more because people are taking things personally that aren’t personal.

Maybe be. Or maybe it is because people are getting BS when they say what they would do or similar things. 

Since you quoted me, I see I need to specify that I never said there was anything sad in moving on. I DO, however think there is something sad for a person who walks away from someone who was there for them.

You get to have an opinion. So do I. I don't think it is sad to walk away from someone who was there for them. It is part of life.

Many of those Xyzcf, I and the other mods/mentors, mentored and helped walked away. It is how things are on an internet board. I never help expecting people to come back or something.

I love it as much as anyone else when someone shares their reconnection or reconciliation story. Or comes back and say they are in a new marriage or relationship. Or that they are fine. But that is a bonus.

I did not say I found a need to lie. I said that, since the truth is so upsetting and desliked, maybe it is better to lie. That way people will not be distressed they way they seemed to be because I spoke my truth (or others spoke their truth). I got a BS in return. Really? That was my opinion, and what I will most likely do when the situation mentioned arrived. BS? Seems a bit much and odd.

Even if others may not like or agree with what I will do. People openly say what they will do, they get a BS. Odd.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 11:03:44 PM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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Huh? I am so speechless over this.I mean, just...huh?

And I am totally confused. I said what it seems to me. To me, my personal opinion. It does not mean it is.

This is becoming too complicated and too confusing to me.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline 1trouble

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I am going to say a few things about this subject of reconnecting based on my own experience and a heck of a lot of reading
but first I will put the necessary disclaimer on here

"This is MY opinion it is not aimed at anyone or anything'

1) everyone looks at RCR's and HB's writings, which in turn are based on the original book and stages by Conway as if they are some how to manual....on MLC with all the stages.

They are not proven they are only based on some experiences  and whereas there does seems to be some commonality in the beginning of MLC in all the stories here there is no real evidence to suggest the end of MLC is how the above state them.

I do not believe in the actual stage of RECONNECTION as outlined in the articles  and I cannot believe how anyone can say it is truly reconnection until their spouse is out of crisis and they have had conversations (even brief one's) of how they were in crisis, their thought processes and their regrets etc. And their spouse or ex spouse is a fully restored person with empathy and feeling toward them and putting in real effort to restore their relationship

Other than that its nothing but a bit of cycling and clutching at straws...…..and being 'grateful' for them acting normally for a while.

Secondly you wonder why people don't post on here, you need to stand back and look at whats happening to this site, there are some people on here who are argumentative and frankly could start an argument in an empty room, there are some that immediately jump to defensiveness and are triggered by the very smallest slight or take things ultra sensitively and it all adds to lots and lots of confrontation which I have no doubt scares people off, newbies and seasoned posters alike, I know I cant be bothered half the time and I help people behind the scenes.

This place IMO should be ALL inclusive for ANYONE who wants to post who is going through this nightmare....its interesting Goner you said if your H had divorced you you would be off looking for another H, well a lot of us who are divorced do not switch sides like that because our love was a lot deeper than you give us credit for and I believe that my ex is deeply in MLC and I would not turn my back on him that quickly or switch my love off AND BTW I don't need to 'find another H' because I don't need a man to lean on or make me feel whole.

AND if I had just disappeared as you suggested then all of the stuff that my MLC'er has said would not be on here and this is the REAL face of someone coming out of crisis, NOT RECONNECTING (albeit at a snails pace) but this is how it happens and is supported by other stories. it could take him another couple of years BUT this is what it looks like and where I will be and what I will feel is another thing but I will always help himi.

Now that's my opinion


have a great day everyone
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 11:44:47 PM by 1trouble »
"I can't go back to yesterday I was a different person then"..............Alice in Wonderland

you NEVER know how strong you are, until being strong is the ONLY choice you have"

Offline 1trouble

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Sorry and I also want to say

I wish people would not have a few id's on here and use other 'identities' it is ridiculous and IF all posters did was hint that something is happening in their stories without giving detail it really adds nothing to the site.
ITs fine for those who don't want to share BUT when the same people then moan about their not being any great detail about the latter stages it really is a bit like having your cake and eating it!!
again just my opinion
"I can't go back to yesterday I was a different person then"..............Alice in Wonderland

you NEVER know how strong you are, until being strong is the ONLY choice you have"

Online Treasur

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I am also a bit uncomfortable with posters who have strong opinions about who should or should not post but who choose not to have their own story thread.

As a real example, waiting has just come back to share her experience of an aborted return and reconnection with her h. It was obviously a very painful experience for her and her daughter. And there seems to be part of her that feels the need to justify why she loves her h, why she is not codependent for trying. I suspect this is bc as humans when we try and something fails, a bit of us might feel ashamed or judge ourselves for the 'failure' and the pain we reexperienced. And from what we can see, at least the early stages of reconnection are hard work emotionally...maybe people feel too fragile and too unsure to post about it until they can do so with hindsight?

But I agree with Nas and OR that doing so is a way of paying back the support you received, and it is great that people like waiting share their experience. I have occasionally mused on sending PMs to people whose BD was say 5 years ago but who no longer post to ask them for a simple basic update on how things are. Just haven't done so bc it doesn't seem like my place if that makes sense. Hope has different faces after all.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Nas

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Thanks Treasur.  I just want to clarify again that I never said that it was anyone’s obligation to come back here and post. In fact, I said the opposite.  I simply said that if you reconcile, even if you don’t choose to come back and post, it would be nice if you would let the people who supported you for years know that you are reconciling. My opinion.

If people don’t want to come back and post or a variety of reasons, that is their choice. My point was there’s no reason they can’t let their status be known. “I don’t want to post right now because it’s a confusing time or I’m overwhelmed or whatever reason, but to all the people who helped me grieve and helped me grow over the last few years during the deep dark replay when I was walking through hell, I just want you to know that I am reconciling.“ Or send a message through one of your forum friends.

 I just don’t want my words misconstrued anymore than they already have been by Anjae.  I never demanded anything of anyone or said that anyone owes the forum anything or said that people should not choose to leave. I simply said that if you spend years here getting support, it seems like you might want to let all of these people know if you’re reconciling.

 Honestly, I really don’t think what I’m saying is anything that wacky. Or judgemental. A simple question, you spent years here talking to people and commiserating and looking for help and helping others. So if you finally get what you want and reconcile, why would you not want to throw a little hope back to the people who walked through hell with you. And I am still completely baffled as to how that became interpreted as “demanding” that anybody continues posting or how it became suddenly all about people making unreasonable demands specifically of xyzcf and Anjae.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online Treasur

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I got that, Nas, and I agree.
It would be nice if people feel an obligation to give a little back to a place that supported them much like Barbie said. But of course the one thing we learn as LBS is that people don't always share our values lol.

But it is a good reason to be grateful and respectful too to all of the older timers who, whatever their opinions or situation, DO make time to return and share what they have learned and experienced. And RCR and the mods who invest time in HS being here for others. Maybe it is a thing that differentiates an MLC support site from some other kinds of forums that we all know that MLC takes an extraordinary long time, so there is real value in the 5/7/10 year perspective. We all wish it weren't so, of course....but it is the reality apparently, and HS is now old enough as a community to be able to draw on that perspective.

And on the 'reality of those unseen voices'? I'm sure that it is quite possible that there are many unposted stories and that they are an unseen mixture of outcomes. But imho all we can work with is those who choose to show up...those are the anecdotal facts and stories we have.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:30:19 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Nas

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And on the 'reality of those unseen voices'? I'm sure that it is quite possible that there are many unposted stories and that they are an unseen mixture of outcomes. But imho all we can work with is those who choose to show up...those are the anecdotal facts and stories we have.

Yes!!!!  This. This was my original point based on the conversation that started on the other thread from which this was split off. People were giving words of caution and those words of caution are coming from the fact that our experience thus far has mostly been but situations that don’t turn out well in terms of the marriage reconciling.
 And I said that if the people who keep saying that they know several people who have reconciled that don’t post anymore could simply find a way to at least share the names of those people, it might add to the more positive things that we see. As you said, we can only work with the anecdotal evidence that we see. And right now the balance is off, with far less marriages even coming close to reconciling. We see way more negative behavior and way less reconciliation. That was where my question came from, if these people who are reconciling don’t want to come back and post that’s fine, but why can’t they at least let us know their forum names so that we know that they are actually real and out there. And then maybe the balance between the bad MLC behavior and the positive outcomes could become a little more equal.  And somehow that simple statement of me just simply saying that people who reconcile don’t have to come back but they might at least let us know what’s happening turned into another outraged and infuriated post by xyzcf And somehow inexplicably also lead to Anjae asserting that we are making demands on her. While she herself was telling me I “fail to understand” that people move on - and not owning that those words were blunt and rude.

 I have every right to voice my opinion and say that I think the people who reconcile might at least consider letting the forum know, considering they were here and they know the pain and they know how much people want to know how many actually do reconcile. Again, no one owes anything, but it just would be nice.

Instead, it became another ridiculous outraged heated exchange,  where things were made personal, it was asserted that people were making demands on others, judging others, comparing people for how much money they have and making lists of who are the “better” LBS.

I will admit that in my post I did name certain LBS that I thought were examples of success stories. I chose the ones who came first to my mind and I do regret singling anyone out because I did leave out an enormous  amount of others who deserves equal praise. I will never feel sorry though for specifically mentioning ready2transform, she was my mentor and I literally would not have gotten through this without her. She’s my definition of #goals.






Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online Treasur

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I too learned a lot from Ready2transform's posts and her approach to her recovery  :)

It is a reminder maybe for all of us before we hit post that our posts are part of a legacy on HS, that people we don't know may come along in a few years time and read our journey long after we are maybe no longer here on HS....being aware of that may temper some of our s/t reactions to other posts perhaps? I have learned a lot at different times from those who came before me.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:57:53 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Helpingme!

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Oh wow!!
I woke up this morning looking forward to reading a few more reconnection stories, but lord has this thread went in circles.
Oh well. Instill have tons of HOPE!!! Yes, I go to bed every single night hoping I get my M back. If I never hear any reconnection stories I'll still have HOPE, I had it before I came on this site. My hope comes from a different thing.
I hope you all have a wonderful day.

Offline Nas

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Really sorry, Helping. I tried to get you some of this reconnecting stories that were referenced, but as you can see this thread turned into circle of:
“Who are the people who have reconciled but don’t post?”
“who’s on first, but here’s the list of all the purple icons.”
“Everyone has read the purple icons. What’s up with these other reconnection stories you’ve referenced?”
“What’s on second, but here’s the old timers thread. Sometimes people update there.”
“Yes, we know that, but who are these other people you’re making reference to, the ones you know who don’t post anymore? Surely if you meant the ones we all have access to you’d say so rather than saying you personally know of several. So who are these several lbs who’ve reconciled?”
“Who’s on first, but here’s a link to the reconciliation stories thread that’s been pinned to the board for 10 years...”
Sorry to be flippant, but I still don’t understand why this thread became what it did. Circular, frustrating, and the continued misconstruing of my posts ultimately made me wish I could go back in time and not have posted in this thread at all.

I won’t be back on this thread, so all I can hope is that my posts don’t continue to be misread and used as the basis for misconceptions and accusations of targeting and making demands of people.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:40:31 AM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online OldPilot

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I guess I am way late to this party and being that I have been here since the start of the forum and on DB since Fall of 2009 I will write a few of my thoughts.

Do I need to be here anymore? - Um No
Why am I still here? - My ex wife is still in MLC and I always wanted to PAY FORWARD the advice and kindness I was given on these forums.
Why do people not post their stories? - Well this is known by older posters here but my ex-wife was stalking me here and reading all my posts and even stole my username and password to help her do this.
All my posts were moved to the SUBSCRIBERS forum for protection and she bought a subscription and followed me there.
There are other posters who used to post that have similar stories and no longer post here or dont have their stories on the Community board because of security reasons
Do I remember everything I have read or posted on this forum or DB for the last 10 years? - Absolutely  not.
What do I need to do to recover my marriage or myself? - Everything you need to know is in my first post to everyone on this forum or on DB. Also the advice for newbies is a must!

I am a little disappointed that more people do not want to pay forward but I certainly understand since this can be a full time job.
We certainly need more people to become mods or helpers.
As life moves along posters tend to drop by the way side and just when they could become a mentor they leave or turn us down.
I guess RCR and I have failed somehow in this regard.
Again RCR was very active on DB and here and now five children later does not have the time.
I totally understand, I have similar things keeping me busy, like my 14 month old grand daughter and the upcoming marriage of my daughter.

I am sorry if the forum or the writings here do not always go the way everyone wants them to but you get out of this place what you put into it.

Hope everyone else can have a great summer or what remains of it.

Offline DCD

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Good Morning,

Helpingme!, my husband and I are reconnecting.  My bomb drop was June 2000 and he returned (hopefully for good!) February 2018. I don't have a purple icon because a) don't wanna jinx it ( ::) ) and b) i wouldn't know where to even begin to get one.  I wouldn't say that we are completely reconciled (I honestly don't know how he truly feels - i haven't asked - again, because i don't wanna jinx it), but i can say that he refers to me as his wife, he tells people he is married, we act like we're married, there's much affection and consideration...we're truly better than we were before. Of course, there was never any huge proclamation of love or regret or remorse...i see these things in his actions. 

I don't come by very much...but then again, i really didn't throughout the last half (two thirds...?) of his "journey".  I did come back when he returned in the hopes there would be more like me and I could glean how they went about it.  I'm not sure if it was the mirror work (i love me so much right now...that wasn't always the case), but triggers and resentment truly were and are at a minimum.  I don't update as much because really, what's to say?  He's still here.  We're still enjoying each others' company.  Our son (special needs, autism) is settled in and thriving (was bumpy at first...son was quite comfortable with just the two of us), and is enjoying a renewed and i would say even better relationship with his dad.  Day to day, things are pretty much routine with a sprinkling of happy realizations that this could very well be genuine.  He's been very open about his relationship with OW, how the blinders were ripped off likely years before but that he found himself stuck.  He had attempted a full year before his return to return but i had shut that down fairly quickly.  He has never said "i am sorry for what i have done to you and son" but alluded to our struggles. And thanks to understanding his love languages (learned that from here...among many many other valuable lessons), he shows his affection to us both each and every day.  He comes across as someone who is settling nicely into his skin. 

As far as people not returning to post or discuss their reconnections, or people who have decided to truly let go and move on to bigger and better things, i can understand that.  So much of our energy and time was spent...for some of us many years...just trying to keep our heads above water - it was painful and is exhausting.   It's like going back to the hospital that saved me from leukemia. i love that place and people so dearly but the smells (hospital soap is now the worst smell i can imagine), the looks on the faces of those still battling for their lives...it brings me back to that time - perhaps a bit of a dramatic comparison.  At any rate, there are very few of the people that were here years ago when this place was my lifeline.  I'd love to know how they're doing (I come by to check on those still remaining :) ), but my feeling is that they got what they needed from this forum, found their feet, and are off and living their best lives - that's the point of this forum, right?  I feel like this forum is experiencing some growing pains and, indeed, it's a different place than when I first came across it 8 years ago (and THANK GOD I DID).  Different people with different needs.  I've always viewed it as a hand to those who need lifting, a hand to those who stumble, a hand to those looking for direction, an ear to listen and a reminder to love yourself - to respect yourself, your spouse, each other...."the Unconditionals apply to everyone". Take good care :)
some days are yellow
some days are blue
on different days, i'm different too
you'd be surprised how many ways
i change on different-colored days.
 - dr. seuss

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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I get it. However, on HS LBS are told not to have expectations. I learned the same with mediation. Of course pretty much everyone has expectations. However, I prefer hope.


I had expectations before I ever came to HS and read the crap here on about expectations. We are told a lot of stuff on here, and I don't see a lot of evidence that it makes people's lives better or less stressful (I am not even going to touch whether it leads to more reconciliations than those who just do what feels right). If a man is still your H, you have every right to expect certain things from him. There is no free pass in marriage. If a man wants you to expect nothing from him, then he can get a divorce and drop those marital responsibilities. But until then, he should expect expectations. Except in very few cases, there is an out that they can take if they don't want to be burdened with those pesky expectations.

Quote

Your husband had an insight into his MLC most MLCers do not. Most MLCers don't even know what is going on with them.


My H had zero insight into MLC. He had zero insight into the FOO issues that were very obvious during the worst of his crisis. He just made a prediction about his future behavior that turned out to be relatively accurate.


Quote
Your husband's MLC/Replay may had not been mild or easier or anything, but is was not like the MLC most of our spouses have.

Because of external factors it seems different to you. But I will tell you this, if my H was in your country and yours was in mine, they may have each done the same thing that the other did. Legal and cultural factors constrict what one can do, but essentially they are doing the same thing.  I have never doubted it was MLC. I see very little difference between his behavior and that of many others on here.

Maybe what is different is my attitude? I consider MLC to be a low period during and within the marriage, not an inevitably marriage ending event if I don't take action. And I have on more than one occasion, but not that frequently, told my H that and that I believe we will have a better future together. I am not willing to dramatize it into something bigger until if or when it is.

There are certain MLCers who use the fog as an excuse to act out of character. An LBS can use the MLC as an excuse to act out of character too. To have no expectations, to detach, to live like they aren't coming back, no contact, in short to mentally twist themselves into a pretzel that resembles divorce. And then what happens? They wind up divorced. I'm not saying doing the opposite will get your spouse back, but I think doing these things will make divorce much more likely than if you just held up your half of the fort.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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I do not believe in the actual stage of RECONNECTION as outlined in the articles 

Then with all due respect, it doesn't sound like you have read the articles recently, because no one talks about a STAGE called reconnection. it is something that runs in parallel with the stages outlined. I am not going to defend any of the articles but my relationship with my H has been steadily improving for about 21 months now. The first glimmer of improvements came in November 2017, then April 2018 saw more improvements (due to getting away from MIL for a while), August 2018, November 2018 and then I would say in late June 2019. Yes, in hindsight I can see where things got better, then plateaued for a while, then got better some more, and plateaued. And yes there have been setbacks along the way as well. But really you don't not need to be at the very end of the process to see it in retrospect. In the meantime, the worst replay behavior slowly started to taper off. In some ways, I can make a direct correlation but in others not. So really reconnection is NOT a stage but a process.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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I am not going to say anyone SHOULD come back and post, but I have to agree wholeheartedly with Nas' suggestion that it would at least be NICE if people came back and told us they reconciled. They don't need to provide any details if it would be triggering, but I think at least it would add value to those reading what they wrote about the earlier stages of their experiences because we can see what they went through earlier on knowing in the end they reconciled. It would give more context to what they wrote before.

There are a number of oldtimers who you can see are logging in frequently but may have not posted in YEARS. Maybe if one of them is reading this post they can oblige us.  :)

Offline Helpingme!

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Thank You DCD
I'm the same. My timeline is way shorter. Only 3 years.
I believe we are reconnecting.  Same as You, my icon hasn't changed. I won't change it till I'm sure.
I do wish y'all the best. The part between reconnecting and reconciling is a long time imo. 
I don't think any go from bad to good overnight. Just way I see it.
Thank you again.

Offline 9393roo

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I am not an old timer in any respect, I am however in the process of reconnecting.  About 2 months ago I made the conscious decision to go off of here for awhile.  My H and I started marriage counseling and I was having a rough go of many things.  Coming back to this site was at the time contributing to the great deal of triggers I was experiencing.  I would read others stories and remember my H was doing the same things to me in his highest replay and I got stuck being able to move forward with my forgiveness.

During my year on here this site has been a lifesaver for me.  I don’t know what I would have done without Acorn’s wisdom, Um’s humor, KITS show of grace,  Maleficent‘s story on reinventing herself after 50 ( no easy task I know), PJ’s kind words, and Helpings friendship as we both seemed to be at the same point in dealing with our teenaged spouses.

I do see the importance of continuing to share reconnecting stories and I do promise to share, maybe not as much as I used to.  My H and I are far from being reconciled but we are moving forward. 
Husband 54
Me 54
Kids 3 sons 28, 26, 23 1 daughter 19
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 32 years.  Together 34
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.
He is working on things and far from being cooked.

Offline panda

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Hello everyone...  :D

I no longer post.  My story started in 2011 and I joined here in 2013 as I couldn't believe what I was witnessing (crazy and psychotic behaviour). I read all I could here and was on the board daily.  I looked in the beginning for signs of improvement in my H, was convinced he would come home etc....but then realised (and it did sink in eventually) that he was a person I simply did not know anymore.  He has been gone 6 years now and I am in a good place.  I don't see the need to post anymore but I will say our lives (me and children) are good.    It was not what I had planned but I got on with it.

We are in the divorce process at present however I am no longer worried or scared.  This is something H pursued and now no longer seems to be interested in doing so we'll see.  He remains with original OW however has admitted he has totally screwed up.  He still has not addressed any of his issues (as far as I am aware - we don't often speak).

I would have loved to see more reconciliation or reconnecting stories or what happened just prior to any return. 
BD Dec 11
BD Feb 13 - OW discovered
Moved out Nov 13 to live with OW

Offline Thunder

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That's so nice to hear, roo.

Good luck to both of you!
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Helpingme!

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You go Roo!!! Wish yall the best.

Panda I'm glad your in a good place and your kids. That's the best thing.

Well Nas it seems you have brought some out. Thank You.

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I love these two usernames together.  :)

A poem:
Happy to see you, panda and roo,
would be fun if tigger would check in too.

lol.  ;) ;) ;)
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline lawprofessor

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My biggest problem is people who say we are spending too much time here and should not spend hours, days and months here, you are being stuck, yet if you look at their profile they are here every day. Maybe not posting, but they are here.
They have not left the site.  So why are they still here???
It's hypocritical to me.

Own that you are also here.

Thunder, I'm finally going to address this passive aggressive little post since you quote something I'd written but didn't ask me about it since I've now had 7 separate members here send me the quote.

I never said "we" were spending too much time on HS. 

It was context specific as related to 2 separate posters who came to me to discuss their problems privately and asked me to post to them.

One said she was tired of getting nothing but a cloud of powder and worthless generalities in response to her posts. 

The second was in a dire situation frozen and by her own admittance stuck.  She was by her own posting spending day and night here rather than taking care of herself.

She asked for my opinion as to what would un-stick her and help her get on her feet financially and mentally.

So there is no "we" because you were not included in the post and obviously both chose not to include you in the details and whys.

You may think it's appropriate to spend day and night here but that was not working for these two posters who came to me.  You see, these two needed to be able to work and earn a living as they are only in their 40's. 

As to me, I am not here everyday.  The only time I am here is if someone messages me through the pm here or if their happens to be an interesting discussion thread or someone messages me about a certain post. 
All of which happens much less frequently in the last few years, sadly, thanks in part to passive aggressive conflict avoidant actions of a few. 

And if this is the biggest problem you have, I'd think you would be mature enough to address it with the person causing you the biggest problem you have as you stated in the above quote.  But you chose to do it this way. 

Own that and I'll happily own that I come here to answer pms, read interesting discussion, and see a few friends. 

The difference is, my coming here to do those things is not standing in the way of me holding a job, running 2 businesses, paying my bills, eating my savings, causing me distress to the point I privately reach out to others and ask if I'm addicted to HS. 

So, I'm sorry you went to the trouble of checking my statistics instead of asking me directly.  I'm sorry you were not asked by those two posters for help and an opinion.  I'm sorry you didn't choose to discuss this "biggest problem" you have so that you understood the issue and didn't personalize it for other reasons.  And I'm sorry you choose to passively aggressively call me hypothetical. 

But really, this is pathetic and just another bit of judgement nonsense without either knowing or understanding the situation.  As long as you've been here, you'd think you would know better.

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Thunder

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Just to be clear, I was not pointing at any ONE individual.

I was referring to a few people on here, a few men included, and not just recently, this has been going on for awhile, but I didn't and won't give names.  They know who they are.
It is just a gripe of mine. 

Lp, I'm sorry you thought I was singling you out, I wasn't.  If nothing I said pertains to you then please just ignore it.  No need to explain yourself. 
I will say if you give a friend that advise, for what ever reason, it may be better to PM them, as not to embarrass them.

There are a lot of reasons for being on this site.  I never sign out so it probably looks like I'm here 24/7, which doesn't bother me.  We're free to be on here for what ever reason, for as long as we want, but I don't pretend I'm not here every day.

 

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Anjae

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Thank you for the update, DCD, Roo and Panda. DCD, your BD was in 2000 and your husband start to reconned Februray 2018, 18 years afterwards?


Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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That clearly was a typo. If you go back and look at her first posts, BD was in 2010.

Online nah

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Maybe this was already addressed but I missed it.

Some posters are wondering/wishing that more reconciled LBSers/MLCers would continue to post. Maybe they were helped here and should continue to post to give those behind them hope and/or advise how they found their path to a good/happy life.

But...

Even though most MLC marriages don’t make it, if the former LBS continues to post, there must be something wrong with them.

Or to sum it up...
We want to hear about the past if you reconciled; but if you’re not, you must be stuck.

This idea implies that reconciliation is the only path to happiness, which is so completely far from the truth,... there are many paths and I for one like to hear about all of them.



« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:05:26 AM by nah »
H-54
me-52
ow-30
married 1986
BD April 6 2013 day after family went out for sons birthday.
I packed his bags two days later...semi-vanisher
https://heneversaidaword.com

Online OldPilot

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Maybe this was already addressed but I missed it.

Some posters are wondering/wishing that more reconciled LBSers/MLCers would continue to post. Maybe they were helped here and should continue to post to give those behind them hope and/or advise how they found their path to a good/happy life.

But...

Even though most MLC marriages don’t make it, if the former LBS continues to post, there must be something wrong with them.

Or to sum it up...
We want to hear about the past if you reconciled; but if you’re not, you must be stuck.

This idea implies that reconciliation is the only path to happiness, which is so completely far from the truth,... there are many paths and I for one like to hear about all of them.

or it implies why people don't continue to post.

Offline DCD

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Thank you for the update, DCD, Roo and Panda. DCD, your BD was in 2000 and your husband start to reconned Februray 2018, 18 years afterwards?

Oops! Excuse the typo - that was supposed to be 2010-2018....eight years and not 18.  I should note that I was not standing for my marriage as I was quite sure he was going to continue on with OW. i didn’t believe he’d have it in him to leave her.

Thank you, Anjae  :)
some days are yellow
some days are blue
on different days, i'm different too
you'd be surprised how many ways
i change on different-colored days.
 - dr. seuss

Offline sada

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Sada, class of 2014 here. I update my thread only sporadically, just to say I’m still here for anyone.

Reconciled w mlch after his short abandonment with ow. We are quite happy together and it’s been hell getting here.

My h displayed all the typical mlc behaviors including falling in love  (if he thought it was love, then I guess it was. I’ve not asked him what he thinks of that now)  with 20 years younger damsel in distress, spending $$$ like it grew on trees, monstering at me, rewriting history, etc.
Came back to me because life with ow wasn’t so glamorous & fascinating after all. Continued replay behaviors & had ow2 for a short time (as far as I know).  I think it was approximately 3.5-4 years till he seemed mostly cooked. Took a long time for him to be able to hear me & acknowledge & own his multitude of wrongs. We’d have screaming matches because he’d become defensive & victim-like whenever I had questions or want to talk about my triggers. And I would lose it because the victim was me & I felt hugely muted & invalidated. This was our dance for the first couple of years.

The suffering, pain, confusion, loss of identity & sense of self is overwhelming when your spouse is in mlc. I found this forum fairly early in his crisis & it is the most helpful forum I have ever encountered on the Internet. I remain loyal & grateful to THS for this reason. I’d like to remain available to any lbs & be a witness.

OT:
Something I have noticed on the forum more recently than before is quite a bit of arguing over what essentially comes down to simply, someone’s opinion.
I hope I’m being helpful when I say we are all entitled to what our opinion is. Because each of our opinions is based on our own lives, relationships, & experiences, including foo issues.

It is not necessary to understand another’s opinion. Therefore, not necessary to invalidate someone’s opinion if it differs from yours. Sometimes a person just wants to have a voice.

   (off soapbox)
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline Slow Fade

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I read a lot here but I don't post much. The main reason is that I don't want to discourage anyone from standing for their marriage. Reconnecting and reconciliation, in my opinion, makes MLC look like a walk in the park. Its very, very hard at times, very frustrating at times, very discouraging at times and very rewarding at other times. Its not all roses and rainbows. My H didn't come back whole. He still has issues to work through. We are dealing with his cancer, his foo issues, his depression as well as my triggers and trust issues. This part is where the rubber meets the road and the work is difficult.

That being said, it is worth it to have my marriage intact. For me. It may not be worth it for someone else. Reading newbies stories triggers a LOT of things that I then tend to take out on my H. Not fair to him, and I need to learn to  deal with that part of it.

Another reason I don't post much is that there doesn't seem to be much interest in the reconciliation process. Its about as exciting as watching paint dry. No drama, no court dates, no ow to vent about; its just life.

I also do not want to give the impression that there is a "formula" for the return of a spouse. There isn't. My H just one day out of the blue said he wanted to work on our marriage.  :o Could have knocked me over with a feather. What did I do to make that happen? I have no idea. I just did what felt right to me and what I believe, and began to look after myself and S16. I was good either way; return or not.

There is my .02 worth. My experience. My opinion. Hugs to everyone here.  :)


Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Online Treasur

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Seems as if, sf and sada, your reconciliations started about the same time?

I don't think anyone, once we get past the desparate newbie stage, believes that reconciliations are anything other than tough and hard work. And that there is no magic formula.

Is there anything that WOULD have helped you both in the last couple of years that you did or might learn from others experience of reconciliation?
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline 9393roo

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Quote
Took a long time for him to be able to hear me & acknowledge & own his multitude of wrongs. We’d have screaming matches because he’d become defensive & victim-like whenever I had questions or want to talk about my triggers. And I would lose it because the victim was me & I felt hugely muted & invalidated. This was our dance for the first couple of years.

Thank you for this Sada.  My H and I have been doing this dance for about 6 months now.  We have a really good marriage counselor on board who has been helping us with communication.  We are both slowly learning when to back away from the dance and take some time outs.  My H too becomes very defensive and shuts down quickly.  I’m learning how to deal with healing on my own without a complete sense of remorse and empathy from him.

I met alone with out marriage counselor the other day( who by the way is completely frustrated with my H)and she asked me the question “What if this is as good as it gets for him?  What if he can’t face this and never does? What does that mean for you?”  I told her I think I will know when the time comes.  Right now, this month is better than last month and this year has been better than last.  I’m good with that right now.

Reconnection has for sure not been easy. Things come up and hit me all the time that I have pushed away when I took the steps to disconnect from our marriage. The road to putting it back together is more painful then I ever imagined.  We are taking it Day by day.
Husband 54
Me 54
Kids 3 sons 28, 26, 23 1 daughter 19
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 32 years.  Together 34
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.
He is working on things and far from being cooked.

Offline Slow Fade

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Treasure that's a tough question. I think, like with most things, that knowing that others are going through the same thing would have been hugely helpful. There were some who let me know via pm, kindly, how difficult it was going to be, but a touchstone would have been nice.

Quote
Reconnection has for sure not been easy. Things come up and hit me all the time that I have pushed away when I took the steps to disconnect from our marriage. The road to putting it back together is more painful then I ever imagined.  We are taking it Day by day.
This for example is good to hear. I know I'm not alone and not going through something unusual. Well, unusual for MLC anyway!  ::)

Quote
“What if this is as good as it gets for him?  What if he can’t face this and never does? What does that mean for you?”  I told her I think I will know when the time comes.  Right now, this month is better than last month and this year has been better than last.  I’m good with that right now.
Wow, and this. Roo, have you been inside my head?

Hearing these things and being able to hash them out with others going through the same thing is invaluable.
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline Slow Fade

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Quote
My H too becomes very defensive and shuts down quickly.  I’m learning how to deal with healing on my own without a complete sense of remorse and empathy from him.
Me too.......me too!  :P
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline 9393roo

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Quote
I was good either way; return or not.

This right here is what I believe is a key ingredient in helping reconnection.  It took me 3 years to come to this point.   When you just start actively living instead of burying yourself in a hole of despair waiting for your spouse to return, everything changes. 

Thanks for starting this conversation Not Your Monkey.  It’s good to see others in the same spot.
Husband 54
Me 54
Kids 3 sons 28, 26, 23 1 daughter 19
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 32 years.  Together 34
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.
He is working on things and far from being cooked.

Offline Nas

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OT:
Something I have noticed on the forum more recently than before is quite a bit of arguing over what essentially comes down to simply, someone’s opinion.
I hope I’m being helpful when I say we are all entitled to what our opinion is. Because each of our opinions is based on our own lives, relationships, & experiences, including foo issues.

It is not necessary to understand another’s opinion. Therefore, not necessary to invalidate someone’s opinion if it differs from yours. Sometimes a person just wants to have a voice.

   (off soapbox)

Totally agree, I asked the question in one of my previous posts about why there seems to be so much hurt feelings and arguments over opinions. 
Having a voice is so important, especially for LBS who are usually not allowed to have any voice at all in the dismantling of their marriage and lives.

Quote
I was good either way; return or not.

This right here is what I believe is a key ingredient in helping reconnection.  It took me 3 years to come to this point.   When you just start actively living instead of burying yourself in a hole of despair waiting for your spouse to return, everything changes. 



I agree so much and think no matter what happens, coming to a place where we're good either way is the key element in helping us heal.

Thanks to everyone who has posted and shared. 
A few have said that reconnection stories are perhaps boring and no one really pays much attention to them.
I think people read them with interest but don't comment as much.  The posts that garner the high comment rates are usually from newbies who are shellshocked and need lots of support and ask lots of questions, or people who've long fully reconciled or former MLCers who people ask a lot of questions of.  There's the sort of in between group like you guys who don't ask anything of us and probably often need to distance yourselves in order to go through the process of reconciling. But from reading these most recent posts, it also looks like there are people in the reconnecting/reconciling process who are all at different points and they might be able to help each other through the various bumps and bleak moments, etc. 

But something else Slow Fade said also totally resonated with me - about reading newbies posts, being triggered and taking it out on her H.  I can absolutely imagine that.
I can see it from all sides here, none of it is easy, for sure.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline sada

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From Treasur Reply #79 on: Today at 08:55:00 AM

Quote
Is there anything that WOULD have helped you both in the last couple of years that you did or might learn from others experience of reconciliation?

Something that I did because of distrust & fear was become a class-A sleuth. I snooped, snooped & snooped some more in any way that I could. This caused me immense distress & anxiety. For example: I’d wait till I was sure he was asleep & check his phone log & text messages.  Also I’d assume that if he called me at a seemingly inadvertent time I’d actually get sweaty & almost hyperventilate  thinking he was just checking up to make sure of my whereabouts so he could cheat in peace.  Things like this drove me nuts.  Read: I drove myself nuts.  But the actual situation was that nothing I could have done would have mattered. If he was gonna leave, he was gonna leave. If he was gonna cheat & lie, he was gonna cheat & lie. If he was gonna love me & honor our marriage, he would.

So Treasur, It’s honestly hard to say what exactly I’d  have done in those moments of anxiety because they were so consuming. But I wish I would have followed the mentor’s advice when they say nothing we do matters.  All my snooping did was to cause sleep loss & hardened arteries.

In regards to our many arguments & screaming matches (mostly me screaming). I know now that he did not have the capability to speak the words I felt I needed to hear. Something along the lines of: I’m so sorry I hurt & betrayed you, loving wife. I lost my mind & was a effin idiot & I will NEVER do anything like this ever again. If I ever even think about cheating you can ... because you are the absolute BEST thing that has ever happened to me.

I understand now that he did not have the capability to say these words. Not making excuses at all but I know that he doesn’t even remember all that he’s said & done. He couldn’t understand my triggers.

He has spoken to me about his remorse, sorrow & guilt & shame & how he thinks of it every day but the words have come at times when I least expect it & it’s then on to the next thing. Not much conversation at all.  I don’t dwell on it. He is one who shows love...  affection & service.

 
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline Standing Strong

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I really like it when people post about reconnecting.
Both from a Hope perspective and also about what it looks like.

Knowing ahead of time is a really good thing.... I mean, when we all had BD... we didn't know what we were looking at. Same with script, there was a lot I was on the "lookout" for once that started.

I think re-connection has to be similar in many ways across the board.

As for coming back when it's all over..... I think there's a lot of good to come from that too, but at the same time people do want this to end for them (and that's VERY understandable). Talking about it could extend the feelings and this IS the worst experience ever (in some ways, wonderful in others). I know when mine is over someday, there will be decisions to be made there. On one hand, I'd like to come back and help... just as so many have helped me. On another hand, if W comes to complete healing, I'd like it if she'd get on here and help people like Shock's Sis has. I don't know if she'll get there, but I hope.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline sada

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From 9393roo « Reply #80 on: Today at 08:57:30 AM »

Quote
Thank you for this Sada...
...Reconnection has for sure not been easy. Things come up and hit me all the time that I have pushed away when I took the steps to disconnect from our marriage. The road to putting it back together is more painful then I ever imagined.  We are taking it Day by day.

You’re welcome roo.
Little by little those “things” (I totally get it. Been there done that)
will become fewer,  more spaced out, & with time,  distant echoes.  Try not to let those dreaded “things”  matter too much.  In the long run, they will not. 
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Online xyzcf

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One thing I question is how would your spouse feel about you writing about your relationship here? On the internet to virtual strangers?

I know some of you don't think the spouse's feelings about this matter.

If I were the MLCer trying to make a marriage work again, I wouldn't want that to be posted here.

I know for a fact, my husband would be horrified.

Another thing, do MLCers who have returned know that the LBSer is posting about them?

If not, then in some ways I think that would not be being transparent.

I wonder what a marriage councilor would say about posting your "return" story details here, espeically if you are not sharing that with your spouse?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 11:51:04 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Thunder

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Oh Sada, isn't that one thing you wish you could get through to newbies?  Snooping does nothing but cause a lot of anxiety and it's just not worth it.  You make up scenario's in your head that are usually SO off the mark.

I was a fellow sleuth.  I even checked our checking account every time he left the house to see where he was REALLY going.  Guess what?  He was at the grocery store, drug store, pet shop...such a waste of good energy.

The other thing is NO relationship talks, it gets you no where and usually just starts an  argument....plus they are not thinking logically so what comes out of their mouth is gibberish.

But I guess you live and learn.   ::)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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I recall someone writing a few months ago (have absolutely no idea who it was though) that one of their conditions for their spouse to return would be that they must come to this forum and post. Personally, that came across to me as a controlling and shaming action. Or like someone who commits a crime and is forced to perform community service. LBS as judge.

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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One thing I question is how would your spouse feel about you writing about your relationship here? On the internet to virtual strangers?

I know some of you don't think the spouse's feelings about this matter.

If I were the MLCer trying to make a marriage work again, I wouldn't want that to be posted here.

I know for a fact, my husband would be horrified.


How is it any different from posting during any other part of the process or the fact you post now?

Quote
I wonder what a marriage councilor would say about posting your "return" story details here, espeically if you are not sharing that with your spouse?

And how is telling your story to a marriage councilor any different? They meet with you in the flesh, they know your name? OK, I don't believe in counseling in the first place but part of the reason for that is precisely because it involves talking to someone behind your spouse's back and being identifiable.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:16:37 PM by Not Your Monkey »

Online OldPilot

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One thing I question is how would your spouse feel about you writing about your relationship here? On the internet to virtual strangers?

I know some of you don't think the spouse's feelings about this matter.

If I were the MLCer trying to make a marriage work again, I wouldn't want that to be posted here.

I know for a fact, my husband would be horrified.

Another thing, do MLCers who have returned know that the LBSer is posting about them?

If not, then in some ways I think that would not be being transparent.

I wonder what a marriage councilor would say about posting your "return" story details here, espeically if you are not sharing that with your spouse?
Maybe that is why we are divorced we posted on this forum..... :P

Offline 9393roo

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The snooping thing is spot on.  It does nothing but hurt you and release all sorts of monkeys.  I have all my H’s passwords (maybe if they are even correct,I’ve never checked) and he keeps his phone out all the time.  He tells me I can look anytime but I still won’t.  It’s true he’s either honest or he’s not, there is not one thing I can do about it.

XYZCF I will try to answer your question from my own perspective. Our marriage counselor asked me the other day who are included in my support systems?  I told her I have 3 amazing sisters that I confided to in the beginning but now I do not mention my journey to anymore. As much as I love and adore them, they don’t understand and are always worried about me. I told my counselor that I come in this site and I have learned many things here and it has helped me through some of my darkest moments.  I don’t post about the great many details I am going through, but bigger things.  I do plan on telling my H at some point about this site and if he is at a point where he is able to show empathy he should be able to understand I needed this to help me heal myself.  I have shared a couple of my posts with him telling him it was just me writing my feelings.  I often see this site as many counselors giving advice. I take what I need from it and continue on my path forward.
Husband 54
Me 54
Kids 3 sons 28, 26, 23 1 daughter 19
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 32 years.  Together 34
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.
He is working on things and far from being cooked.

Online xyzcf

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OP, you made me giggle.

NYM, in a therapeutic setting with a councillor anything that is said is confidential. The councillor is a trained professional, and has several years of education in human behavior to guide you through the healing process. I don't see it at all as "talking" behind someone's back and my spouse would totally understand that.


Roo, I do think this site is incredibly helpful but after so many years post BD, my own healing is really what matters.

I do not think HS can be all things to all people...it is wonderful at helping the LBser navigate what they are going through, I'm not sure of it's role in reconciliation.

But this is me, except perhaps in the early times when I was in such shock, I have always been protective of our relationship. I think that I am influenced by Rejoice Ministries philosophy that strongly advises against telling all kinds of things to strangers.

I am also guided by my religious beliefs concerning loving him...not something that is shared by lots of people on HS or understood.

Each situation is different. I am not sure when I devoured all the reconciliation stories that this was helpful to me...just saying from my own point of view.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline sada

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From xyzcf « Reply #88 on: Today at 11:47:35 AM »
Quote
One thing I question is how would your spouse feel about you writing about your relationship here? On the internet to virtual strangers?

Hi xy,
My h has known about my involvement here for quite some time. I told him about it after we reconciled. He didn’t understand at first because he’s generally distrustful of “Internet” stuff anyway. But he trusts me to honor his privacy & respects & appreciates that this forum was my safe zone & comfort when he was in his throes of mlc. He is thankful for that. As he should be.

I have asked my h about certain questions on here (not a lot) & he’s been happy to answer knowing I would post it here. He understands that for me, it's giving back.

I’m unsure xy... Why does it matter when we are all anonymous?  Members are from all over the globe & never even have to divulge their whereabouts.
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline Thunder

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I don't think it's going behind their back at all.  That would be the last thing I would worry  about.
They turn our whole world upside down and we have every right to find help where ever we please.  It is none of their business.

If a person wants to show their spouse their posts, after they reconcile, I think that is fine and an individual choice.  It may help the understand all we went through a little better.
If they can't handle it, or gets upset about it, then maybe they are not ready to be reconciled.

Post here after you reconcile?  Sure why not, if that is what you want to do.  These posts can be an encouragement to others.
But again it is everyone's individual choice.

Just even a little update doesn't hurt, you don't need to be here everyday.
I expect most people reconciled are too busy with their marriage to take time to post here.
I would NEVER give away the name of this site, that infringes on other members private conversations.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online xyzcf

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Quote
I’m unsure xy... Why does it matter when we are all anonymous?  Members are from all over the globe & never even have to divulge their whereabouts.

Good question. I think there are a number of factors. Some are cultural, some related to the way  I was brought up and others because of my nursing training.

In our marriage, my husband and I were private about many things. Open with one another but totally on the same wave length concerning our personal lives.

What I consider private is not what someone else would consider to be.

The internet is a strange world and although anonymous, details that we all share would not make it difficult to obtain information about us.

It just would not feel right to me. There are things I wrote in the past on HS  that I would not have written today. So privacy matters a great deal to me.
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Thunder

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xyzcf,

I am also a very, very private person, so I get it.  I wouldn't choose to share it either, and never have.
But that is our choice no matter what our reason is.  I personally wouldn't feel right about doing so.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline sada

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« Reply #97 on: Today at 01:22:25 PM »

Thanks for your answer xyzcf,
Your reasons have to do with your own beliefs & values & I respect that, as everyone should because this is of course, your own opinion.

I understand your mistrust concerning privacy but then you went on further & mentioned your nursing training. I’d never mention my field or my husband’s.  In my opinion, that is a privacy issue.

Just proves that we all just do the best we can towards the common goal here: to seek help or to be a help or both.
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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There are several members who have posted things in the forum and/or their personal profiles that make it very easy to identify them by name, to identify their spouses, their children, and/or the OP, when combined with other publicly available information on the internet. Things that they may not even realize give away their identity.

Offline Anjae

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Thank you for explaining, DCD.  :)
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Acorn

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One thing I question is how would your spouse feel about you writing about your relationship here? On the internet to virtual strangers?

I know some of you don't think the spouse's feelings about this matter.

If I were the MLCer trying to make a marriage work again, I wouldn't want that to be posted here.

I know for a fact, my husband would be horrified.

Another thing, do MLCers who have returned know that the LBSer is posting about them?

If not, then in some ways I think that would not be being transparent.

I wonder what a marriage councilor would say about posting your "return" story details here, espeically if you are not sharing that with your spouse?

My first reaction to the above post was to defend myself.  That passed. :D

I’m thinking that this forum is about marriage - broken or mending - as much as it is about MLC. I dare say the majority of the posts are about the former, and MLC as an explanation.

People share how their M was broken to bits.  It is reasonable to share how it can be rebuilt as well.  To each their own, I guess.

I’m very happy to share my reconnecting story with the forum as it is part of chronicling my LBS journey.   I’m also happy to share the descriptions of my H’s healing process because RL examples of the last stages of MLC are not commonly shared and the posts are mostly composed of Replay shenanigans.   This is part of my pay forward and hope that it adds to the scant examples of healing MLCers. 

As for the time factor involved in rebuilding M, I have a lot more personal time to indulge in my own interests because my H is doing his share of all the housekeeping, investing time and energy in organizing family and couple time, etc.  Ahhhhh, the luxury of not having to be ‘it’ for everything for my kids!  Just sayin’.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:53:47 PM by Acorn »
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Offline Thunder

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Really NMM?  Like what kind of information? Maybe it would be helpful to let people know so they are aware of these things and don't make these mistakes.

My XH has no interest in the Internet or Social Media so I never worried about him finding information, he just doesn't care about any of that, but if you know things that can protect the LBS's maybe you could share that with them.  :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online xyzcf

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Each person is here for their own reasons.

In thinking about this topic, I felt that there was pressure put on people to share their story because after all they received help and support and somehow I owed it to them to come back and report on any reconciliation. Indeed, Standing Still was used an an example, that I was trying to give him hope on one hand and yet would withdraw my own story even if he would benefit from it.

Certainly this is my and only mine interpretation of comments that were directed at me when I said I wouldn't be on HS if I were reconnecting with my husband. ( a statement that I have made previously and for many years).

Some will feel more comfortable than others. Sada pointed out that I was open about being a nurse, whereas she has never disclosed what she or her husband's occupations were...everyone is different in their comfort level with what feel they can or cannot share.

I am thrilled when people reconcile and equally as happy to read about their story if they so choose to share it.

Years ago, I stopped posting about my husband. When I post, it is often about my own healing or insights that I have.

I also feel strongly that any reconnection between us will be a totally new relationship and therfor  it doesn't fit for me to share details about that. Others as we know, share intimate details of their new relationships, even their sex life....some HS members are ok with that and some aren't.

Acorn, your thread is very helpful to others and your generosity to share your story is wonderful to so many people. I thank you for doing so.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:08:45 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Acorn

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Xyz, I would wholeheartedly support your decisions in regards to posting/not posting.
Just as well each one of us has different boundaries.  Can you imagine everyone sharing their bedtime exercises?!

I had no doubt that you were expressing your own thoughts and not inferring that others should think the same, hence the backing away from my reactive defensiveness in 1 second!

In the same vein, I’d thought I share my attitude about sharing my reconnecting story as well. 
Neither is right or wrong.  Neither is positive or negative.  It’s just different attitudes and opinions. 

We are all good! 
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Offline Not Your MonkeyTopic starterTopic starter

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Thunder-If I told you, I would have to kill you.  8)  ;)

The problem is that people can't hide what they have already posted that other people have already learned about them and if I told you the sorts of things that people post that identify them then others could use that information to figure out who they are and that would put them at a greater risk of their privacy being violated than it is now.

Offline Milly

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I have always loved reconnection stories. I don't usually post on the threads because there doesn't feel a need for my input the way it's needed with those at messier stages. But I still love to hear what's going on in those re-uniting marriages. I hope members come back and post, and even if just to tell us that they are working on their marriages again.
Married 1989, together since 1984 
BD May 2014,
D25, D22, S15
OW Physical Affair same one. He and she said she turned 34 the month of BD. She turned 52 this year.

Offline Rosetintedglasses

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I’ve found this thread very interesting mainly for the extra reconnection/reconciliation bits of information shared.

I have completely agreed with Nas and would love there to be more of these types of updates and support. I remember reading Acorns thread over a year ago and it seemed like her H was where I hoped my H would be and I thought she’d be saying ‘so that’s it, all over back to normal’. But she said she was carrying on as she had been with her detachment and leaving her H to catch up if he decided to. This one sentence to me has kept my mind sane and has been as useful to me as the many many sentences I read after BD. This site saved my sanity after BD and who knows if there were more little updates from those going through reconnection and reconciliation it may help that part of the process for those getting to that stage. Similarly for those past BD and taking a different route support from up ahead would be welcomed too.

Sada/Roo/slow fade to name a few have written things here that I want/need to read about so I thank you for that and hope it continues somehow. It may seem boring but these little insights and the chance to ask questions about things are really valuable.

(XY hope your H realises how fabulous you are, and soon 🤗)

Rose 🌹
Married 15+ years with 2 children
BD1 - 2016
BD2 - 2017
BD3 - Sept 2019
MOW Mar 2016-Jan 2018
OW2 - Feb 2019, age 30
H left home Oct 2017 to stay with his parents
Bought a family Puppy mid 2018 - referred to as ‘P’

Link to advice by my mentor, Phoenix, on what to tell the children about H leaving - reply #33 (it had a glitch)
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9313.30

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Quote
XY hope your H realises how fabulous you are, and soon 🤗)

Rose 🌹

What a lovely thing to say Rose 😀.

I hope they all get through their tunnel, for their sake if nothing else. Thanks for your kind words!
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Thunder

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Thunder-If I told you, I would have to kill you.  8)  ;)

 ;D ;D ;D
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online Wonder no more

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I read this post with interest.   I have been here since 2010, I believe.  My marriage has been reconciled for quite some time.  I don't post much except for Watcher's thread.  To be honest there are so many people on this forum compared to when I was here in the beginning and it's hard to keep them straight. I think there are a lot of assumptions being made on why people are here still or not.  We are all individuals with our own personalities and stories.  I'm retired and online a lot, I guess, and frequently come here to check on some people.  I still feel connected to what happened and this site.  I am not stuck, my marriage is great.  I use to post more but often got turned off by some very defensive posts. Some people don't want advise and that's ok. This site saved me through the most difficult time of my life.  I did post my story through my H's crisis and I believe I ended it with it being reconciled. 
 My old name was Wondering What To Do. MLC/LBS is not a one size fits all.  I don't think I had all the answers just my story, my healing and the sheer luck of my H making it through his crisis and both of us wanting to try again.  He had a "shorter" replay"  2-3 yrs than a lot here and it took us a good three more years to feel really good.  In some ways, I felt guilty coming back and posting because it doesn't seem to happen as often as I wished it did. My H is aware of this site and knows I posted here, he may still know I do.  I don't think he really cares as he is whole and happy in our life. 
I come here to see how people are doing, see their growth and their strength building.  I'm sure one day I will fade away but for now I am here.  Not sure I really care what people think of why I am here.  I own what my marriage went through and don't sweep it under a rub.  I wish everyone the best and am deeply thankful for this site. 

Hugs!
Wonder no more

Offline Anjae

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Thank you for the update and post, Wonder.

Happy to know you have been reconciled for a while.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline hopeandfaith

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Wonder, your story is one that I often think of.  You were gracious enough to share a lot of details and I remember that some of them were pretty ugly.  This whole thing is pretty ugly and yet you both made it through.  The voices around you at the time were pretty gentle from what I remember (unless I only read yours ;D) and I am really grateful that you didn't feel discouraged from sharing the good, the bad and the ugly.  I resonate with your story and it has helped me more than you know to take a chill pill and carry on.  I would go as far to say as you are my favourite ;D
BD's in May 09, Sept 12 - suspected OW
Left home Jan 12 2013
OW confirmed Feb 2013
Moved home April 11 2014
BD again in April 2017 - clinging. 
Moved out July 2017
D19, D17 and S15

Offline Never say never

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Hi, everyone!  It's been a long while since I posted but this title caught my eye and so I figured I would comment.  I will start off by saying I did not actually read the thread because I've been so busy, so this is kind of a short-cut way to update myself! 

Long story short, my husband and I have reconciled and have been working on our relationship for over a year now.  He is a totally different man from the monster who I lived with for several years. 

He re-proposed to me after our 25-year anniversary.  We are moving from the northern suburbs of Chicago to right outside of San Antonio next week.  We are building a house in Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, so if anyone is around there, please let me know!!!  I am scared because I have never lived anywhere else in my life.

When I do get settled, I plan on updating on my post and will share any experiences or answer any questions I can for anyone.  I am hoping that I can go light purple at that time. 

I/we have worked very, very hard to get where we are today.  I will say if you are standing for your marriage, it is a very empowering feeling.  There were times I felt like a desperate housewife who was just settling for what I had.  The fact that you can overcome MLC, grow from it and get through it is an experience you cannot explain to anyone who has not gone through this. 

It is true ... IF your spouse comes out of the tunnel and IF you decide to accept him/her back, they will be a much, much, much better person than they were before.  The compassion and empathy that my husband portrays is almost heartbreaking.  He consistently tells me how he can never understand what he put me through; he can never apologize enough and says that I was his "rock" during his time of MLC.

Okay ... enough rambling because I'm not sure this is what this post is about.  One quick last note.  I have not seen the OW in over a year.  I was having a blowout on my hair last Wednesday for a girls' night out.  I go into the salon ... guess what?  Yep!  OW is having her hair processed at my salon with my hairdresser.  I put my chin up and didn't glance once at her.  I told my hairdresser the story and she couldn't believe it.  She said she thought OW was a sweet, demure quiet church-type woman!  Ha! 

I left the salon with my chin up ... lost it big-time afterwards ... BUT ... I stopped in to see my stylist yesterday and she said after I left, OW started talking up a storm and told her she put her house on the market and is moving.  Mind you, she bought this house about a year and a half ago with the hopes and thoughts she was going to settle down in it with my husband.

Karma is a you-know-what.  Sorry ... I believe that.

Big hugs to everyone. 

Never ... xoxo

Offline Rosetintedglasses

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Never I would say this is EXACTLY what this thread is about so thanks so much for sharing your update. (It would be such a shame if your hairdresser left the color on too long on OW’s hair and ruined it wouldn’t it..!)

Wonder, also thanks especially the timeline it’s good to know. Xx

I think I have been looking for this type of thread forever!
Rose 🌹
Married 15+ years with 2 children
BD1 - 2016
BD2 - 2017
BD3 - Sept 2019
MOW Mar 2016-Jan 2018
OW2 - Feb 2019, age 30
H left home Oct 2017 to stay with his parents
Bought a family Puppy mid 2018 - referred to as ‘P’

Link to advice by my mentor, Phoenix, on what to tell the children about H leaving - reply #33 (it had a glitch)
https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=9313.30

Online Treasur

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Never and Wondering
Thank you for coming to post here. Even for those not standing, there is a point when all you wish you could know is that the person you loved will some day return to being a normal human again. No crazy, no shark eyes, no dark unreachable chaos, no monster. Of course it's a crapshoot...is it MLC and if it is will they ever recover? And if they do will we ever see them again or find out about it if they have run far away? But both of your posts say in different ways that there is hope for their recovery and that is a helpful thing to know.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Helpingme!

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Thank You Never and Wonder.
Makes me smile to read happy post.
Never
Your moving to a beautiful place. I don't live there, but go there couple times a year. It's a very peaceful place.

Offline Thunder

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Wonder no more, I believe you old name was Wondering.   ;D

Right?
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online Wonder no more

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Great to hear Never!  It's a long process to reconcile.  It's painful with many steps forward and back but worth it if both of you commit to moving forward.  As painful as a affair is, it can be overcome.  My marriage is better than before his MLC.  I have to be honest, I'm not sure how many years I could have waited to see if he got his act together but I was lucky that a couple years in he gave me hope through some of his actions. This site was my survival...the only people in my life that truly got what I was going through.  I found it helpful to know a little about this dis-ease but some of the great advise that I experienced is to not take the stages too literal.  The LBS will not see the MLC go through it all and they may never go through all that is written here. A lot of us can get stuck stage watching and interpreting what they think is happening with their MLC.  More good advise was to concentrate on ourselves and live like they are not coming back. 

Thunder...yes Wondering what to do..then Wondering...then Wonder no more    lol

Offline Never say never

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So I thought I would elaborate a bit on the subject of this topic.  In my situation, and I want to preface that by saying everyone is different in how they deal with this crisis, when we started the reconciliation process, I was not able to be on the site.  The memories were just too painful and I knew if I didn't put it behind me, I would not be able to focus on the future.

Having said that, I will say that it was similar to breaking an addiction at the beginning.  It may even be similar to what the MLCer is going through with their OP.  It's almost like a safety net.  In my deep time of depression, I was on the site almost 24/7.  I was surprised I didn't get fired from my job because I would have the computer on the site while doing my work!

After I became secure in myself and with my relationship and started the trusting process, I checked in on a few people that I followed.  Now, I didn't post, but I lurked.  I was looking for some happy news for them. 

When this happened at the hair salon, I reached out to one of the HS members and she told me about a discussion thread called "ShockandAwe."  It has the green monster (I think that's what it is!!) icon.  I would suggest everyone read that.  It tells the story from a MLCers perspective and let me tell you that she is spot on in what she says.

The thing is, there is nothing you can do while your spouse is in MLC... N-O-T-H-I-N-G.  I had to come to the realization that my husband actually did hate me during this time... hated me on a superficial level.  Deep down, he never wanted me to leave him and he didn't want to leave me, but he wanted me to leave him alone while he got through his crisis.  They really do pick an affair-down because that is not their intent. 

I can't speak for those who do want a divorce and go on to marry the OP.  Is it MLC?  Who knows?  Like us LBSes, we all handle this differently, so that may be their way of coping at the moment. 

For the LBSes, you do need to please leave your spouse alone.  You will only prolong this huge mess that has been created.  It's not fair, but remember, life is not fair.  As I said, my husband has turned into the most compassionate person.  We have had moments throughout our reconciliation, though, don't get me wrong.  One "for instance" is my husband was telling me about a guy whose wife left him because he was an alcoholic.  He was going on and on and on about "how can someone do this to their spouse" and "that poor guy.  OMG ... I feel so bad for him."

I let him speak, and then my insides burst and I let it out.  I was like:  "Are you freaking kidding me?  Do you know what you did to me?"  And honestly, my husband looked like a deer in headlights and said:  "No, I don't.  I have no idea what I did to you."  And he was dead serious. 

Gone are the shark eyes.  Gone are the spaghettios and PB&J sandwiches.  He is the man I married but more. 

Timeline?  True timeline?  2008 - 2018.  He had a mini MLC from 2008 to 2010 and I thought he was through the tunnel.  He hadn't even begun to get into the tunnel.  Serious MLC - 2012 to 2018.  I know, seems like an eternity, but looking back now, and I'm being honest, I am having a hard time remembering just how tough it was, too.  Maybe I'm fooling myself and I'm not letting myself think about it.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know.  Am I going to have an MLC because of this down the road?  I don't know.  All I do know is we can only be responsible for ourselves. 

I have said this before and I will say it again.  I used to be co-dependent on my husband for everything.  I didn't think I could live without him.  I now know I can survive and thrive.  My husband complements me but my husband does not complete me.  I complete myself.

After my move and when I get settled in, I will pick up on my thread.  I will ask my husband anything.  Trust me, you will get through this and you will be okay. 

(((HUGS)))

Offline Mortesbride

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I have said this before and I will say it again.  I used to be co-dependent on my husband for everything.  I didn't think I could live without him.  I now know I can survive and thrive.  My husband complements me but my husband does not complete me.  I complete myself.

Great place to be. :)
You know this is MLC when you have played emotional hot potato with a pair of crotch-less tights.

Offline Helpingme!

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Never I love your story about hair salon. I was at gas station awhile back. OM pulled up beside me. He stopped looked over and seen me. He pulled up to the next pump.
He got out and went inside. I almost pulled off. But I said hell no. I went inside and got a coke. And stood rt behind him. He just put his head down. He checked out got in his truck and left.
I had to do it.  I just cdnt let him think he bothered me. Like you. Emotions ran wild driving home. But I felt better later.

Offline sada

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Never say never
« Reply #120 on: Today at 06:58:34 AM »
Quote
I know, seems like an eternity, but looking back now, and I'm being honest, I am having a hard time remembering just how tough it was, too.  Maybe I'm fooling myself and I'm not letting myself think about it.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know

Never, this really resonated with me because I’ve felt that way also. It’s hard to explain but I know my soul was crushed & I was in the depths of despair but the pain of it has subsided. For me, personally I feel it is God’s grace. Grace for my h & for myself. Grace for h bcuz I have no desire to have him suffer for what he did. I forgive him unconditionally.

I’m graced by a lack of condemnation for h or ow. I really do pray that she finds what she needs in life to get to a place I am now. Maybe she already has.

Grace for me manifests in how much closer I’ve grown to Him during h’s mlc. This was something that would have continued whether my h & I had reconciled or not. It would have been worth it either way.

Quote
Is that good or bad?
    I think it’s a good thing.    

Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline Anjae

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Thank you for the update, Never.

He is a totally different man from the monster who I lived with for several years. 

Can you elaborate on this?

Not that I am reconnecting, I have a hard time remembering how BD and all that followed was. I know how it was, just no longer feel it.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Never say never

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Elaboration...

I'm sure you remember the man that left me on the sidewalk after I was chasing him down in the pouring rain and he left me there with a sprained hip.

The man who left me every day and came home just to shower, pick up his food for the day and leave ... hence, the title of my house:  truck stop.

The man who had black, shark eyes... ran through our house with his truck...said the OW was the one he wanted to be with and not me ...

The man who went to OW's events:  son's graduation, weddings, outings, all while our own two kids were going through the same thing.

This is just at the tip of my tongue.  Today's man is different.  I was thinking about this.  In my opinion, for an awakening to happen, they must go through something as traumatic as what brought them into this crisis.  For my husband, it was getting terminated from his job.  Law enforcement was his identity.  Being fired after 30 years, I believe, was his awakening that, WTH, if I don't do something now, my life is over. 

Yes, he found his higher being.  He was baptized and reads the Bible religiously.  They say to never talk about family, religion or politics, so I suppose I should leave this alone, but that is what changed my husband.

I can bring up the past and there is no "monitoring," like "just get over it" or things like that.  His pain is real.  Very real.  Very deep.  He says he will never understand the depth of pain I have been through ... and I believe it.  Our spouses are in a different type of pain.  I would rather feel our pain than theirs because ours is from the soul ... theirs is from their lack of respect for themselves. 

MLCers are really lost people.  If you are choosing to stand, do it for yourself and out of respect for your spouse.  If you choose not to stand, do it for yourself.  The common denominator is "yourself."  This is a very tough road we have been put on but it's doable. 

Offline Anjae

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Thank you for elaborating, Never.

I'm sure you remember the man that left me on the sidewalk after I was chasing him down in the pouring rain and he left me there with a sprained hip.

I do and I'm not sure I would take that man back. You and the others who are capable of taking back the MLCer are far better people than I am.

Our spouses are in a different type of pain.  I would rather feel our pain than theirs because ours is from the soul ... theirs is from their lack of respect for themselves. 

I've had a MLC myself. Mild and short. I found being the LBS worst. Then again, my MLC come with BD. Was I lacking respect from myself? It could be said so. All that going out and about was not respecting myself. It was great fun, but it was not the being very caring towards myself.

Even if I had my own MLC, I don't understand MLCers like your husband or Mr J, etc. Their is different MLC level. That said, if they got help for their depression early on, maybe, just maybe, things would be different for eveyone involved.

Agree that regardless of standing or not standing we should do it for ourselves.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Nerissa

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but looking back now, and I'm being honest, I am having a hard time remembering just how tough it was, too.  Maybe I'm fooling myself and I'm not letting myself think about it.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know.   

...so just like childbirth really then...?

Offline Never say never

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Haha!  Nerissa, I'm not really sure since I don't remember childbirth!  Good analogy, though.

Anjae, I am not a better person than you nor are you better than I nor are any of us on this Earth better than anyone else.  We are all human beings with faults.  The bottom line is what your line in the sand is and what mine is.  Of course, when I was first married, the thought of an affair, absolutely, is that line in the sand.  What are we, stupid?  Of course!!! 

Then comes along MLC.  That changed it all for me.  My husband prided himself on being a faithful, loving, honest husband while his brothers did their own wild thing.  MLC struck and ... whamo.  Some will call it an excuse ... some will not forgive ... some will forgive ... some will have compassion while others don't.  In the end, it really doesn't matter, does it?  What matters is what we do with it.  Of course, I was justified to leave.  Would I be happier today?  Who knows?  I can only do what I feel in my gut is right. 

All through this, I felt I was meant to stick this out.  Whatever the reason is, I can't say.  Maybe I will know that in the future.  Am I happier than I've ever been?  Right now, no.  And you can underscore that ... no.  The first 17 years of my marriage were beyond magical.  But were they?  Was I living in a fairy tale?  Well, if I was, it was Never's fairy tale!  Haha!  I had that going for me.

Am I content right now?  Yes.  I don't know what my future holds, nor do any of us.  I want to build from this.  I want my kids to learn from this.  I want others to learn from this.  I don't know that I want my husband to learn from this or any other MLCer because I don't know that they can.  I sincerely believe that.  I am not angry at him.  He did not want this to happen.  This is not a choice. 

Call me stupid, that's okay ... like alcohol is not a choice ... it's a disease ... like MLC.  Addiction is a disease.  It's what we eventually do with this disease we are carrying that matters.

Ugh ... I'm rambling again.  Some of you that post are so well thought-out in your posts.  I just rattle off what my brain is saying! ;D ;D

I will say this brings up memories ... good and bad.  HS was what saved me.  HS also is where I shed many tears and thought I'd never make it.

Either way, we are survivors.

Offline Acorn

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Never say never
« Reply #120 on: Today at 06:58:34 AM »
Quote
I know, seems like an eternity, but looking back now, and I'm being honest, I am having a hard time remembering just how tough it was, too.  Maybe I'm fooling myself and I'm not letting myself think about it.  Is that good or bad?  I don't know

Never, this really resonated with me because I’ve felt that way also. It’s hard to explain but I know my soul was crushed & I was in the depths of despair but the pain of it has subsided. For me, personally I feel it is God’s grace. Grace for my h & for myself. Grace for h bcuz I have no desire to have him suffer for what he did. I forgive him unconditionally.

I’m graced by a lack of condemnation for h or ow. I really do pray that she finds what she needs in life to get to a place I am now. Maybe she already has.

Grace for me manifests in how much closer I’ve grown to Him during h’s mlc. This was something that would have continued whether my h & I had reconciled or not. It would have been worth it either way.

Quote
Is that good or bad?
    I think it’s a good thing.

Ditto with all my heart, Sada!

About forgetting, my dearest Never, I don’t think you are fooling yourself.  I think it’s also called, ‘healing’.  Letting go of another’s debt that he cannot possibly repay could be part of the balm that heals, I think. 
((((((HUGS)))))))

When one is given such gift of grace, it brings about healing from the core, I believe. 
Live-in MLCer
Feb 2015: BD.  H has a Nuclear meltdown. 
Oct 2015: ILYBIANILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

Offline Anjae

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Never, it is not the affair, affair. If it was only a bried indiscretion = affair, it would be different.

Many MLCers don't just have an affair. Mr J is one of those. They leave, they live with OW/OM, some marry OW/OM, they are abusive, they take the LBS to lawyer, they stop paying alomony and child support, etc. And they carry on being that way for years on end.

Those MLCers don't haven a short lived affair, regret it and want to work on the marriage.

To me, forgiving is separated from taking the MLCer back. Also, I find it easier to forgive if the MLCer is not back. I have no idea how it would be if Mr J was back.

He did not want this to happen.  This is not a choice. 

I see it it a little differently. That I know of, no one wants MLC to happen. However, many, if not all or most, MLCers, know what they are doing, that it is wrong and don't stop it.  Several of them, Mr J included, also know they are depressed even before they leave, yet do nothing about it.

If someone knows they are depressed, does nothing about it and allows for all the ugly, damaging things that come with depression continue, it is on them.

Addiction is a disease, but it can be treated. MLC is not exactly addiction. Many MLCers go back to normal without professional help. Addicts don't tend to.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Slow Fade

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All through this, I felt I was meant to stick this out.  Whatever the reason is, I can't say.  Maybe I will know that in the future.  Am I happier than I've ever been?  Right now, no.  And you can underscore that ... no.  The first 17 years of my marriage were beyond magical.  But were they?  Was I living in a fairy tale?  Well, if I was, it was Never's fairy tale!  Haha!  I had that going for me.

Am I content right now?  Yes.  I don't know what my future holds, nor do any of us.  I want to build from this.  I want my kids to learn from this.  I want others to learn from this.  I don't know that I want my husband to learn from this or any other MLCer because I don't know that they can.  I sincerely believe that.  I am not angry at him.  He did not want this to happen.  This is not a choice. 

This. Same for me.
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline 9393roo

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Me as well....
Husband 54
Me 54
Kids 3 sons 28, 26, 23 1 daughter 19
BD #1 Spring 2016
BD #2 Winter 2017
married 32 years.  Together 34
H never moved out except 3 weeks after BD #1
OW 30 year single mom employee-He says EA only I don’t believe him.
He is working on things and far from being cooked.

Online xyzcf

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Quote
If someone knows they are depressed, does nothing about it and allows for all the ugly, damaging things that come with depression continue, it is on them.

Often people who are depressed do try and get help but help is complicated and not always successful.

Sometimes people who are depressed are too depressed to find the help that they need.

Even with the best treatment available it may still not break through the depression and so it can go on for years.

I don't think any human being "wants" to be depressed. But that isn't a choice due to many different factors.

It is good to read these updates and once again to see the similarities always remembering that each MLCer is also different and although some things look the same, the many factors of their own lives will make each situation different than another's.

Thanks for sharing

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Anjae

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Often people who are depressed do try and get help but help is complicated and not always successful.

Sometimes people who are depressed are too depressed to find the help that they need.

Even with the best treatment available it may still not break through the depression and so it can go on for years.


I know. However, that is not Mr J's case. He didn't try to get help. He refused it. He was not, nor is too depressed. He is able to function properly, hold a job, lead a life with a partner, etc.

MLCerd, maybe aside from some wallowers, aren't the type of too depressed perdon that is overty depressed and unable to funtion - at  a point my wallower cousin become one of those MLCers.  Many MLCers tend to get back to normal without professional help. Therefore, their depression somehow self-resolves, or was probably never that serious to start with.

We know from MLCers that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it. We know they feel entitled and don't care about anyone else.

MLCers are fully responsible for all their actions, including legally. And that cover not getting help when they know they are depressed. I am talking about MLCers, not about people clinically diagnosed with Major Depression that are not able to lead a normal life and are incapble of making decisions.

I don't think any human being "wants" to be depressed. But that isn't a choice due to many different factors.

I'm not certain. Some people seem to love to be depressed. Not being a choice depends. If I stop taking Vitamin D and become blue, a thing that tends to happen if I stop taking Vitamin D it is a choice. It is also a choice to flat out refuse any kind of professional help.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Ready2Transform

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Never underestimate the power of serotonin in having an effect on decision making. That is not to take away accountability, but I know what I've experienced with it. A small dip, I can manage. A big dip, and I can't get out of my own way. This is still a great read (and something to bookmark if any forum member hasn't seen it yet):  http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/Chemical%20Imbalance.html

Serotonin: From Bliss to Despair

Serotonin, first isolated in 1933, is the neurotransmitter that has been identified in multiple psychiatric disorders including depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anorexia, bulimia, body dysmorphic disorder (nose doesn’t look perfect after ten surgeries), social anxiety, phobias, etc. Serotonin is a major regulator and is involved in bodily processes such as sleep, libido (sexual interest), body temperature, and other areas.

Perhaps the best way to think of Serotonin is again with an automobile example. Most automobiles in the United States are made to cruise at 70 miles per hour, perfect for interstate highways and that summer vacation. If we place that same automobile on a racetrack and drive day-after-day at 130 mph, two things would happen. Parts would fail and we would run the engine so hot as to evaporate or burnout the oil. Serotonin is the brain’s “oil”.

Like a normal automobile on a race track, when we find ourselves living in a high stress situation for a prolonged period of time, we use more Serotonin than is normally replaced. Imagine a list of your pressures, responsibilities, difficulties and environmental issues (difficult job, bad marriage, poor housing, rough neighborhood, etc.). Prolonged exposure to such a high level of stress gradually lowers our Serotonin level. As we continue to “hang on” we develop symptoms of a severe stress-produced depression.

An automobile can be one, two or three quarts low in oil. Using the automobile as an example, imagine that brain Serotonin can have similar stages, being low (one quart low), moderately low (two quarts low), and severely low (three quarts low). The less Serotonin available in the brain, the more severe our depression and related symptoms.

When Serotonin is low, we experience problems with concentration and attention. We become scatterbrained and poorly organized. Routine responsibilities now seem overwhelming. It takes longer to do things because of poor planning. We lose our car keys and put odd things in the refrigerator. We call people and forget why we called or go to the grocery and forget what we needed. We tell people the same thing two or three times.

As stress continues and our Serotonin level continues to drop, we become more depressed. At this point, moderately low or “two quarts” low, major changes occur in those bodily functions regulated by Serotonin. When Serotonin is moderately low, we have the following symptoms and behaviors:

· Chronic fatigue. Despite sleeping extra hours and naps, we remain tired. There is a sense of being “worn out”

· Sleep disturbance, typically we can’t go to sleep at night as our mind/thought is racing. Patients describe this as “My mind won’t shut up!” Early-morning awakening is also common, typically at 4:00 am, at which point returning to sleep is difficult, again due to the racing thoughts.

· Appetite disturbance is present, usually in two types. We experience a loss of appetite and subsequent weight loss or a craving for sweets and carbohydrates when the brain is trying to make more Serotonin.

· Total loss of sexual interest is present. In fact, there is loss of interest in everything, including those activities and interests that have been enjoyed in the past.

· Social withdrawal is common – not answering the phone, rarely leaving the house/apartment, we stop calling friends and family, and we withdraw from social events.

· Emotional sadness and frequent crying spells are common.

· Self-esteem and self-confidence are low.

· Body sensations, due to Serotonin’s role as a body regulator, include hot flushes and temperature changes, headaches, and stomach distress.

· Loss of personality – a sense that our sense of humor has left and our personality has changed.

· We begin to take everything very personally. Comments, glances, and situations are viewed personally and negatively. If someone speaks to you, it irritates you. If they don’t speak, you become angry and feel ignored.

· Your family will have the sense that you have “faded away”. You talk less, smile less, and sit for hours without noticing anyone.

· Your behavior becomes odd. Family members may find you sitting in the dark in the kitchen at 4:00 am.

Individuals can live many years moderately depressed. They develop compensations for the sleep and other symptoms, using sleeping medication or alcohol to get some sleep. While chronically unhappy and pessimistic, they explain their situation with “It’s just my life!” They may not fully recognize the depressive component.

Very low levels of Serotonin typically bring people to the attention of their family physician, their employer, or other sources of help. Severe Serotonin loss produces symptoms that are difficult to ignore. Not only are severe symptoms present, but also the brain’s ideation/thinking becomes very uncomfortable and even torturing. When Serotonin is severely low, you will experience some if not all of the following:

· Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

· You’ll become emotionally numb! You wouldn’t know how you feel about your life, marriage, job, family, future, significant other, etc. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off. Asked by others how you feel – your response might be “I don’t know!”

· Outbursts will begin, typically two types. Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface. If you break the lead in a pencil, you throw the pencil across the room. Temper tantrums may surface. You may storm out of offices or public places.

· Escape fantasies will begin. The most common – Hit the Road! The brain will suggest packing up your personal effects and leaving the family and community.

· Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

· You’ll have Evil Thoughts. New mothers may have thoughts about smothering their infants. Thoughts of harming or killing others may appear. You may be tortured by images/pictures in your memory. It’s as though the brain finds your most uncomfortable weak spot, then terrorizes you with it.

· With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc. The “Evil Thoughts” then tell you those symptoms are due to a terminal disease. Depressed folks never have gas – it’s colon cancer. A bruise is leukemia.

· You’ll develop a Need-for-Change Panic. You’ll begin thinking a change in lifestyle (Midlife Crisis!), a divorce, an extramarital affair, a new job, or a Corvette will change your mood. About 70 percent of jobs are lost at this time as depressed individuals gradually fade away from their life. Most extramarital affairs occur at this time.

· As low Serotonin levels are related to obsessive-compulsive disorders, you may find yourself starting to count things, become preoccupied with germs/disease, excessively worry that appliances are turned off or doors locked, worry that televisions must be turned off on an even-numbered channel, etc. You may develop rituals involving safety and counting. One auto assembly plant worker began believing his work would curse automobiles if their serial number, when each number was added, didn’t equal an even number.

· Whatever normal personality traits, quirks, or attitudes you have, they will suddenly be increased three-fold. A perfectionist will suddenly become anxiously overwhelmed by the messiness of their environment or distraught over leaves that fall each minute to land on the lawn. Penny-pinchers will suddenly become preoccupied with the electric and water consumption in the home.

· A “trigger” event may produce bizarre behavior. Already moderately low in Serotonin, an animal bite or scratch may make you suddenly preoccupied with rabies. A media story about the harmful effects of radiation may make you remember a teenage tour of the local nuclear power plant – suddenly feeling all your symptoms are now the result of exposure to radiation.

· When you reach the bottom of “severely low” Serotonin, the “garbage truck” will arrive. Everyone with severely low Serotonin is told the same thing. You will be told 1) You’re a bad spouse, parent, child, employee, etc., 2) You are a burden to those who love or depend on you, 3) You are worsening the lives of those around you, 4) Those who care about you would be better if you weren’t there, 5) You would be better if you weren’t around, and 6) You and those around you would be better off if you were totally out of the picture. At that point, you develop suicidal thoughts.

Clinical Depression is perhaps the most common mental health problem encountered in practice. One in four adults will experience clinical depression within their lifetime. Depression is the “common cold” of mental health practice – very common and much easier to treat today than in the past.

Treatment for depression, as might be expected, involves increasing levels of Serotonin in the brain. Since the mid-eighties, medications have been available that attempt to specifically target and increase Serotonin. Known as Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI’s), these medications such as Prozac, Zoloft, and Paxil are felt to work by making more Serotonin available in the brain.

Like all neurotransmitters, we can have too much Serotonin. While elevated levels of Serotonin produce a sense of well-being, bliss, and “oneness with the universe” – too much Serotonin can produce a life-threatening condition known as Serotonin Syndrome (SS).

Likely to occur by accident by combining two Serotonin-increasing medications or substances, Serotonin Syndrome (SS) produces violent trembling, profuse sweating, insomnia, nausea, teeth chattering, chilling, shivering, aggressiveness, over-confidence, agitation, and malignant hyperthermia. Emergency medical treatment is required, utilizing medications that neutralize or block the action of Serotonin as the treatment for Serotonin Syndrome (SS).

Like Dopamine, Serotonin can be accidentally increased or decreased by substances. One method of birth control is known to produce severe depression as it lowers Serotonin levels. A specific medication for acne has also been linked with depression and suicidal ideation. For this reason, always inform your physicians if you are taking any medication for depression. Also avoid combining antidepressants with any herbal substances reported to be of help in Depression such as St. John’s Wort.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline barbiedoll

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Quote
We know from MLCers that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it.
.

This is simply untrue . "We" do not know   "MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it". Perhaps this is your experience or perspective , but it has not been mine. You talk as if your perspective is actual documented fact...it is not . I do not believe that my husband "knew exactly what he was doing"....and I am no easy sell, trust me.


Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Offline Anjae

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Thank you, Ready2.

Not all types of depression are caused by lack or low serotonin. I would say MLCers one does not seem to be. Several of us have MLCers, or know MLCers, that took SSRI's and it did nothing for them. If the matter was serontine, SSRI's would had worked at least in some of them. They didn't. If anything several MLCers seem to get worst with SSRI's.

Lack of low serotonin can cause decision making problem, but it does not take away the person is responsible/legally responsible unless their condition was said to be by a psychiatrist/doctors.

MLCers take many, many decisions. Be it before BD of for years afterwards, including getting married, having children, rent or buy homes, etc. Many of them do not take SSRI's once they hit rock bottom. Somehow they seem to be able to get out of MLC on their own.

I think high energy MLCer's depression is not like, for lack of a better word, normal depression and the depression that wallowers suffer from (wallowers depression is like normal depression).

We know from former MLCers, including those of HS reconnecting or reconciling members, that they knew what they were doing and that were they were doing was wrong.

Of course one can discuss the matter of compulsion. The person knows it is wrong, but is compelled to do it.

However, I don't think it can still apply to MCLers like Mr J. It has been too many years. No change from the MLC person. He leads a normal life.

Yes, he is still clubbing and djing and drinking a bit, but I would say that is the new person and that the new person has no wish of changing.

This thread is not about depression. Perheps we should get back on track? Maybe the depression focussed posts should be put on the Depression and MLC thread?
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline barbiedoll

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Ready2Transform, thank you for that excellent post!  Great information.
Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Offline Thunder

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It was, thank you Ready.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online Treasur

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The article completely describes the run up to BD...but my xh was diagnosed, under psychiatric care for 2 years and on industrial quantities of Paxil for a couple of years that I know of. But apparently it did not stop his crisis. I only mention this bc I honestly believed as a newbie that the SSRI would do their job and my h would return to acting like a sane decent adult and it wasn't the case. Now there could be a lot of reasons for that from misdiagnosis to individual reactions, but I think as Anjae says there are a few MLC spouses where ADs have made no significant difference to crisis behaviour. There seems to be something else going on once they run over the crisis cliff. In my then h's case, he was suicidally depressed and they may have saved his life but they also left him as a kind of flat emotional zombie....well until he found the joys of ow, hating me and general rage lol.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Mortesbride

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Ready that post really really interested me. Probably because I am a biology student, but also because I am thinking about going on to study a Masters in Mental Health (for obvious reasons).  ;)

Everything that article described I have experienced with Beast.

I suppose when I first met him he was running on ''3 quarts low'' including the whole ''convinced a bruise meant he hand cancer''.

Over the years he has dipped into the 1 and 2 quarts low areas, but always managed to get himself back out with a bit of time and help.

Directly before BD was tipping toward the ''3 quarts low'' place again, including throwing things against the wall in a temper tantrum.

It has certainly given me a lot to think about (and probably research when I have spare time  ::)).
You know this is MLC when you have played emotional hot potato with a pair of crotch-less tights.

Online xyzcf

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I often have read on HS that antidepressants don't work in MLC.

This morning, I goggled effectiveness of antidepressants. I wanted to find out how effective they are for anyone, because my own anecdotal observations are that I have not seen them to be highly effective in friends and relatives who have taken them.
There are many articles to choose from. I have highlighted a few key things that I pulled from this article.

From: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK361016/:

Quote
How effective are antidepressants?
Created: January 28, 2015; Last Update: January 12, 2017; Next update: 2019.

Like psychological approaches, antidepressants are a key part of treating depression. They aim to relieve symptoms and prevent depression from coming back.

Opinions vary on how effective antidepressants are in relieving the symptoms of depression. Some people doubt they help, while others consider them to be essential. But as is true for many other treatments, these medications may help in some situations, and not in others. They are effective for moderate, severe and chronic depression, but probably not for mild cases.

How effectively do antidepressants relieve symptoms?
There are a lot of different medications for depression. But it's difficult to predict how well a particular medication will help an individual. Because of this, doctors often first suggest taking a drug that they consider to be effective and relatively well tolerated. If it doesn't help as much as expected, it's possible to switch to a different medication. Sometimes a number of different drugs have to be tried out before you find one that works.

Studies of adults with moderate or severe depression showed:

Without antidepressants: About 20 to 40 out of 100 people who took a placebo noticed an improvement in their symptoms within six to eight weeks.
With antidepressants: About 40 to 60 out of 100 people who took an antidepressant noticed an improvement in their symptoms within six to eight weeks.
In other words, antidepressants improved symptoms in about 20 more people out of 100.

We often make assumptions about MLC that just are not true...and one
may" be that antidepressants are not effective...but they are also not terribly effective in the general population.

Anjae argues:
Quote
Many MLCers go back to normal without professional help. Addicts don't tend to.

I will say that many people with depression also resolve their depression without professional help as do addicts. Some addicts just decide to quit. I know people who are alcoholics who have just quit. To some degree, my own addiction to smoking was ended without any professional intervention. Perhaps the same is true for MLC, especially, my belief being that it is somehow connected to developmental issues which, as we see in other developmental stages, do resolve without any intervention.


Quote
I'm not certain. Some people seem to love to be depressed. Not being a choice depends. If I stop taking Vitamin D and become blue, a thing that tends to happen if I stop taking Vitamin D it is a choice. It is also a choice to flat out refuse any kind of professional help.

Perhaps there are a few people who "love to be depressed" but I have not met anyone either in my personal or professional career. Mental health issues are poorly recognized and poorly treated. Even with the best treatment, people may not "recover". Think of the number of addiction treatment centers and how people will go back several times and still not come out much better than they were before.

Professional help is not always available and can be very costly. My therapist charges $150 per session which is not covered by health insurance. I have been seeing her for 2 years, at times weekly.

People with MLC may not see themselves as having a problem or are greatly confused. They self medicate with affairs, addictions, things which for a time might relieve the distress they are experiencing, until it doesn't anymore.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:52:58 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Never say never

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I just have to make a quick comment on the statement that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it.  In my opinion, that is absolutely not true.  In their minds, I feel they have gone back to their teen years and we, the LBS, don't even exist.  We are the pressure points for them and the obstacles that are getting in the way of their freedom.  They don't want this.  They don't know why they are doing it.  Don't you see?

 At least in my situation, my husband never, ever wanted a divorce.  My husband shed tears at what was happening and didn't know what to do.  He had an alien in his body and wanted it out.  Did he have fun while he was not with me and while with the OW?  I'm sure on a superficial level, he did, but he is absolutely mortified at what he has done to me and our family. 

I can't comment too much more because I am not at that point in my relationship yet with my husband where I have asked him exactly what was going on in his mind.  To be honest, I am not even sure he will remember much of anything that happened in the past.  I can say that honestly because I was married before and divorced.  I was married back in the '80s.  With a straight face, I cannot tell you where my ex proposed to me, who stood up in my wedding or anything to do with our marriage.  My subconscious has it totally blocked.  I can try to close my eyes and think, but my mind is blank.  And that is a total serious statement. 

MLC is true ... MLC is serious ... MLC can and will ruin several families and marriages, but I don't think there is a cure for MLC until something traumatic happens to force the demon out of the MLCer and shake them back into reality.  Unfortunately, for some, that will never happen.  They will continue on their path searching for something they can and will never find while the LBS will slowly grow and strengthen themselves.  Either way, the LBS will survive with or without their spouse.  Just remember that they truly do love us deep down and are tortured as much as we are. 

Offline barbiedoll

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Quote
I just have to make a quick comment on the statement that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it.  In my opinion, that is absolutely not true.
.


This. Absolutely agree.
Married April 1985
5 children
Bomb Drop April 2013
Thrown out of house August 2013
Affair discovered November 2013 (i guessed who)
Home December 3 2013
The Journey Of Reconciliation .. is for the brave .

Anger is like a candle in the wind ... it blows out the light of all reason.

Online OldPilot

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Quote
I just have to make a quick comment on the statement that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it.  In my opinion, that is absolutely not true.
.

I think it is true like Niagra Falls, you know the water is going over the Falls and you could not possibly stop it.

Same is true for MLC, knowing it and being able to stop it are separate things.

Offline Slow Fade

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I can testify to the accuracy of this article. As someone who has suffered with panic disorder since the 2nd grade, I've been on SSRI's for over 20 years. I don't know how I managed prior to that point in my life. This is why I broached the subject with H and suggested that he speak to his doctor about it. He checks most of the boxes in this article. Something to think about.
Married 18
BD April 2012
Left home Nov 2012
Home May 2016

Offline Ready2Transform

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Thank you for that data, xyz! It still comes down to our individual chemistry and situations. SSRIs aren't magic pills, though I am glad for the people they help. xH was on several, all with varying side effects. Some things improved his brain (Celexa) but the physical side effects in the rest of his body weren't worth it. Others gave him manic symptoms. As one pharmacist described to me, if serotonin is extremely low, a reuptake drug is only working with what is already there. So it's like being a vineyard with a low yield one year, and trying to squeeze the grapes harder to get more juice. It doesn't work. You need to go to the source and naturally create more serotonin, and if your body isn't doing that, *that's* the problem. And some people have Pyroluria (controversial - just putting it out there) where there is a genetic predisposition for B6 and Zinc deficiency (setting their bodies up to not make enough serotonin). The rabbit hole can go deep, if we keep looking, but ultimately, there's an acceptance that though the person is responsible for their actions, they are making those actions from a mental state they may *not* be responsible for. It's a Catch-22, that leaves a compassionate LBS rightfully confused.

xyzcf said:
Quote
People with MLC may not see themselves as having a problem or are greatly confused. They self medicate with affairs, addictions, things which for a time might relieve the distress they are experiencing, until it doesn't anymore.

Boom. They just want to feel better. WE just want to feel better, so it's easy to understand. It's just very hard to not be able to help. Biggest frustration of my life, though I did get to at least point him to some information last year when we were in contact (he seemed grateful, but it is up to him to use it).

Sorry to have taken this off track, but I hope this can at least be split onto the research thread if possible.
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Online xyzcf

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Certain drugs such as meth, cocaine and others wipe out the neurotransmitter receptors in the brain. We are born with a finite number of these so people who have used drugs in the past, no  matter how much serotonin is pumped unto their bodies, do not have the ability for the serotonin to be transferred to the other side of the synapse because these transmitters were destroyed, perhaps by previous recreational drug use.

These people no longer have the ability to feel pleasure/joy/happiness...and nothing can restore those destroyed neurotransmitters.

As well, studies are finding that inflammation can cause changes in the brain as well as many diseases such as diabletes.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:03:04 AM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

Offline Helpingme!

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Thanks to all that have posted here. All info so helpful. I agree the MLCer can't stop what they are doing. My W has said to me she knew she was doing wrong but it seemed what had ahold of her was too strong to fight. Why she did things THINKING it would fix it. Now my W hasn't completely opened up to me. I just get pieces here and there. 
It was easy for me to say well you just need to handle it and move on.
I see now I can't say that. I haven't been there.  I haven't walked in her shoes.
I do agree it's a choice for them. But it's not that easy for some.

Offline Nas

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I think that it's harder for those of us with vanishers or spouses who live far away to wholeheartedly think they can't control their actions.  I know I've struggled with this for several years.  I can understand why others would feel the same way.  We see nothing and hear nothing that really tells us otherwise.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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I have a very hard time thinking Mr J cannot control his actions. Always had. He can control many of his actions. He does not show his angry side to the people he meets, just to me. He does not tell them what he did. He manages to decide to move in with OW2, to get a new place for himself when they are no more, to get a MLC job, to book his dj sets, etc. People who cannot control their actions don't control their actions don't have selective control of their actions.

I just have to make a quick comment on the statement that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it.  In my opinion, that is absolutely not true.

It may not be true in your opinion, however pretty much all former MLCers that have posted on HS say they know exactly what they are doing. No one has an affair or goes live with OW/OM and does not know what they are doing.

Not all MLCers go back to their teenagers years, I didn't, my cousin didn't, Mr J didn't and for some the LBS still exist. Mr J was a huge clinger. I more than existed for him. Too much, in fact. Until I cut him and his clinginess off.


At least in my situation, my husband never, ever wanted a divorce.  My husband shed tears at what was happening and didn't know what to do.

Never wanting a divorce or a MLCers in tears at what is happening and not knowing what to do is not what most of us deal with.

Oh, Mr J cried a few times after BD. It was all a fake in the sense it mean nothing. He knew very well what he was doing and still carried on doing it.

... but I don't think there is a cure for MLC until something traumatic happens to force the demon out of the MLCer and shake them back into reality. 

Not all MLCers need a traumatic event to shake them out of MLC. For some the traumatic even only sends them deep into MLC. Others just come out of MLC. You have your husband as a sample, however, many, if not most, MLCers, do not behave like your husband.

Just remember that they truly do love us deep down and are tortured as much as we are.

I'm sorry but I don't believe for one second most MLCers love the LBS. Former HS members that had a MLC state they hated their LBS. Many reconnected and reconciled LBS say the same. I think LBS like the idea the deep in crisis MLCer loves them when often it is not the case.

If MLCers could not stop what they were doing they would never be able to come out of MLC.

I will say that many people with depression also resolve their depression without professional help as do addicts. Some addicts just decide to quit. I know people who are alcoholics who have just quit.

I have never heard of someone with Major Depression, or Bipolar, that high energy MLCer mimics, who just resolved their depression without professional help. I know a few addicts that solve their issue, but they weren't big addicts, more people who did drugs on a recreational basis. Same for drinking. As for smoking, yes, I know some people who quit, usually women, and it worked for them.

I stop drinking coffeee, than tea and had no problem with it. However I never drank much of either. Most people I know have a hard time stopping taking coffee and/or tea.

Perhaps there are a few people who "love to be depressed" but I have not met anyone either in my personal or professional career

I have. So has my friend who is a psychiatrist.

Professional help is not always available and can be very costly. My therapist charges $150 per session which is not covered by health insurance. I have been seeing her for 2 years, at times weekly.


Can be costly does not apply to a country with Universal Health Care/National Health System. Even if it did, Mr J can afford to pay €150 per session (here it would be more €75 to €120). And if he couldn't, MIL and FIL can. If there is one thing he does not lack is money. Not being able to afford professional help does not seem to be the issue for MLCers.

These people no longer have the ability to feel pleasure/joy/happiness...and nothing can restore those destroyed neurotransmitters.

This is not the case with MLCers. Once the crisis is over they are fine again. We don't even know if MLCers neurotransmitters are affected. Or if just the ones of a some MLCers. There are no studies about what goes on.

As well, studies are finding that inflammation can cause changes in the brain as well as many diseases such as diabletes.

Indeed. However, again, that is not the case with MLCers. They don't tend to need treatment for inflamation. They just revert back to normal when it suits them. Or when they exausted their fun.


Regarding anti-depressants, SSRI's do not work for 50% of people they are given to. Of those 50%, 25% will need a SSRI again. The same happens with other types of anti-depressants. However, when I say MLCers refuse professional help I am not only talking about anti-depressants/psychiatrist/therapist, I am also talking about seeing a doctor to know if all is well with hormones, thyroid includes, vitamin and mineral levels.

MLCers know what they are doing. Pretty much every former MLCer that come by HS said so. They are also able to stop themselves and no one who cannot stop themselves cannot stop themselves only in regard to cheating and Replay. MLCers don't care about the LBS and often children, and carry on with their MLC lifestyle. We are nothing to them. Who cares about hurting someone who is nothing to them?

Acorn writes a lot of how she was a chair to her deep in crisis husband. We are all more or less chairs to our MLCer.

Why are we still insisting MLCers do not know what they are doing if former MLCers themselves say they do? If they did not knew what they were doing they had no concept of right and wrong. They know what they are doing is wrong.

This whole, poor MLCers who cannot stop themselves and do not know what they are doing is weird. We know they know. They say so themselves. Do you guys really believe someone is having an affair, got divorced, went live with OW/OM, married OW/OM and don't know what they are doing?

How does someone has an affair and does not know it?  ??? How does someone lives with someone else and does not know it? How does someone get divorced and does not know it? How does someone remarries and does not know it?

Our MLCers know enough when it comes to their professional and social life. Why do some LBS believe they don't know when it comes to MLC related things? What they may not know is why they are doing what they are doing. That is different from not knowing what they are doing.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Anjae

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RCR's article on Excuses: https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/standing-actions_dealing-with-infidelity_excuses.html

"Excuses
Is your MLCer making excuses for his infidelity? Are you buying them? Some excuses are meant as lies, some as justifications and some as dismissals. He may or may not have insight into the reasons for his behavior and how it has brought you pain. Until he gains insight, he is not ready to begin the rebirth and repair phase of his midlife journey. Accept the process and learn to laugh--his excuses may be so lame they are funny.

It just happened.
It just happened? How does sex just happen? You tripped on her and just happened to fall in? For Tab A to insert into Slot B, both A and B need to be exposed. Sneezes happen, farts happen, $h!te happens; try again.

I didn't plan it.
You didn't plan it, okay; what exactly did you fail to plan? The first sexual encounter? I think we can rule that out since we've already established that exposure was necessary, but let's move on. Was the second sexual encounter unplanned? Did it also just happen? You mean after tripping into someone's Slot B you didn't learn to take precautions? How do you not plan sex? Where did you meet? Stairways provide space for a fall. But clandestine sexual encounters are more likely to occur at a motel or the house of one of the partners. So how did you get a motel room if it wasn't planned? How did you get to her house or how did she get to ours if it wasn't planned? In the beginning you may not have intended for the relationship to become sexual, but there came a point where it crossed the threshold and that was a choice.


I was drinking.
So what. That has to be one of the stupidest answers to infidelity. Drinking is a choice. The action of drinking alcohol preceded the consequences of becoming drunk and stupid.

I wasn't happy.
Then get counseling; personal unhappiness does not justify adultery. Find help so we can work through predictable hills and valleys in our relationship. Marital dissatisfaction did not cause you to cheat. Infidelity is its own cause.

We were just friends.
Were. And what are you now? Friends with benefits? You allowed your friendship to cross the line; that was your fault and your choice. You are not her friend and she is not your friend; true friends wouldn't treat each other as you have. She has attempted to destroy our marriage, risked your health and your financial stability and you have done the same to her. If that's how you define friendship, how do you define enemies?

It didn't mean anything.
It was just a fling.
It was extramarital sex, adultery, infidelity, cheating. So it meant nothing; you used someone's body to satisfy your loins. She was just a discardable sperm receptacle? If you mistreat one woman, you mistreat all women. Using one woman in such a manner means you can do it to me too.

I didn't mean to hurt you.
So. What does that mean? Does it mean I'm sorry? Then say that. You did hurt. You hurt me, the alienator, our friends and family and our children. But worst of all, you hurt yourself. The thought of hurting me is clearly not a deterrent, so find something that is. How about doing what is appropriate and taking care of your problems rather than avoiding them and making excuses.

I was attracted to her.
So if you see a pretty woman, you must mount her? Down Rover. I find that guy down the street attractive, my colleague 2 desks down has six pack abs and brains to match and the coffee shop guy is cute and flirtatious--I bet I could seduce him. But I haven't and I won't. Finding someone attractive in nature, physically or intellectually does not justify infidelity. There will always be someone other than me who you will find hot; there will be many people you will find hot. That's normal; using it as a reason to break your marriage vows is not.

You were attracted to her, but having an adulterous relationship is not an appropriate reaction to attraction. Now and in the future, what are you going to do when you are attracted to someone else? What are you going to do to avoid reacting inappropriately?

I can't control who I fall in-love with.
Really? Then how is it that you have only fallen in-love with people of one gender? I mean, if you can't control it, odds are that half the people you fall for would male and half would be female. Oh, and you seem to have a type. You only fall in-love with people of your race who fall between a specific age and weight range. Have you fallen in-love with any octogenarians lately? Why is that?

You wouldn't let me grow.
An erection does not count as personal growth.
These excuses lack responsibility. It's called cheating, an affair and adultery and it is always a choice. Many admit to their sins, but still diminish their responsibility with inexcusable excuses. The excuses are not meant as untruths, many MLCers do not understand the roots of how it happened; they do not know how their actions lead to their behavior. Some believe these excuses are indicative that the person is hiding something. That may be true. But they are also convenient answers to toss out when pressured.

An affair requires conscious planning and premeditation, it builds from small, seemingly innocent encounters, to encounters of greater intimacy. People are conscious of present actions, but are often unconscious of the relationship between past, present and future actions. They may not recognize how lunches lead to dinners and how open discussions lead to confiding personal problems. The roots of an affair may be innocent, thus studied alone, the innocent encounters seem meaningless.

This is not meant as a criticism of the well-intending MLCer seeking to reconcile in counseling. But such a person still uses these lame excuses. Learn how this happened. Believing and intending to be faithful are not enough; prevention requires knowledge of the risks and dangers; it requires looking back at behaviors and learning what actions and emotions enabled an affair to take place. A person who is unable to follow responsibility beyond it just happened or I didn't plan it is capable and at risk of not planning it and having it just happen again.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Never say never

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I will make this short and I know this is not what the topic is meant for.  I will just have to disagree once again and say this.

There is a difference between an affair and a MLC affair.  My husband was not attracted to the OW.  He never said it just happened.  He wasn't happy ... with himself at the time ... he never blamed me for not "letting him grow." 

In a true affair, the spouse tries to keep this a secret from everyone except for themselves and their AP.  In MLC, the spouse doesn't care who finds out, including their own children.  They truly don't care.  They are not themselves.  That is why I believe so many mid-lifers do not want to get a divorce ... because they know deep down they will get through this.

Think about your typical affair.  You have a rendezvous ... your spouse finds out ... OMG ...  Ultimatum time.  It's choose between the AP or your spouse.  More often than not, the bubble has been burst and the spouse returns to their home life begging for forgiveness ... along with marriage counseling, blah, blah, blah ... and "please don't let the kids know." 

MLC affair ... spouse doesn't care.  Kids, family, responsibilities, job, pets, friends ... doesn't matter who finds out ... because they are "crazy" at the moment.

My husband loves my daughter more than anything.  When he was in crisis mode, he ridiculed her, ignored her, demoralized her ... you name it.  He made her feel insignificant.  That is NOT a person who is making excuses.

Sorry ... rant over.

Offline Albatross

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They aware what they doing because humans are consciousness people. We tend to live, as humans, our hero life from ego consciousness, if our ego cannot cope with life efficiently then subconsciousness mind trying to cope, if that wont work person is stuck and then fear, anger and resentment build up and then demon from unconsciousness starting superego which pushing ego from throne of consciousness. Ego represents hero who try to bring order in chaos, chaos is yin and order is yang. We have chaos in self and chaos around self. If ego cannot cope with chaos then superego will take charge. And superego is all about destruction of what is and from that making order. Problem is that new order is dark side of the moon. Complete opposite what real life is.

Online Wonder no more

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Never,  Not all MlC affairs are the same.   My H hid it for as long as he could.  He didn't want anyone to know.  He denied it even after I found out.  He never wanted his family  or friends to know either.  Maybe most MLC affairs don't end after exposure but many non-MLC affairs don't end either after exposure.  I believe my H knew what he was doing but did feel driven to do them.  He remembers most of it.  I also believe that what he doesn't remember is due to the high stress, guilt and drinking during that time.  To be honest, unless I re-read my old threads, I don't remember a lot of it too due to the stress at the time.

Offline Standing Strong

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Original question: Do you share your experience when reconnecting?

For me: Absolutely!!!

When this started for me, it's was all nightmare stories.... little hope. What few existed gave some hope but there was so little. AND the hope stories were terrible in a new and different way. Ouch.

So when I get re-connection, yes I will post it. Who knows what person will come later and need that? I'm so glad people wrote so much that helped me, I have to do the same. No question about it.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Anjae

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An affair is an affair. It means having sex with someone other than your spouse. If the person is, or is not, attacked to OW/OM that is another matter.

Did your husband not knew he was sleeping with someone other than you, Never? I'm certain he did since he knows he had OW.

Mr J denied for months he was having an affair. He still denied after he left. He only admitted to it when I got an anomymous phone call telling me about him and OW1. Even then he did not wanted people to know it had started as an affair. He wanted me to toe with his version, that he and OW1 only start to see each other after he left.

To this day he sells the story they meet after he left. Talk about denial. However, he admitted in court it started as an affair, so he knows exactly what happened.

I have his and OW1 letters. He knew what he was doing to the point of telling her he knew what he was doing was wrong and may want to stop. He never stoped until they broke. Then come OW2 with whom he stayed for 10 years, living with her for 9. He knows he spend 10 years with her and that they shared a house for nearly a decade.

The excuses in the article are about the affair and saying they don't know what they are doing. Not about why they become monster to spouse and children. That they may not know.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Ready2Transform

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Albatross used the perfect word - awareness. Of course they have awareness. It is not amnesia. But their perspective is skewed. I think many that come out of MLC confirm that they may remember doing things, but they don't know how or why they were thinking the way they were (me included, and maybe you too, Anjae).
"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline Anjae

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... but they don't know how or why they were thinking the way they were (me included, and maybe you too, Anjae).

Me too, but it does mean we did not knew what we were doing. I know I was going out and about and coming home after sunrise including in Winter.

Why? No idea. Well, it has been a few years I may have one or more. At the time, I had none.

The perspective is indeed skewed.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Thunder

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Not your Monkey, if you want to continue this Discussion thread please start a new thread.
If not you or we can lock it.

Thank you.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Rollercoasterider

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We know from MLCers that MLCers know exactly what they are doing and do nothing to stop it. We know they feel entitled and don't care about anyone else.
::)
Seriously Anjae…you are doing it again, stating something as absolute and as fact. We don’t know and that is obvious as several others have explicitly stated their disagreement with you. This is not really a fact/opinion sort of thing as much as it is about MLCers being different and ALL of you talking about different things.
None of you are wrong which makes this debate silly. Anjae, it’s deeper than you are making it out to be.


Why are we still insisting MLCers do not know what they are doing if former MLCers themselves say they do? If they did not knew what they were doing they had no concept of right and wrong. They know what they are doing is wrong.
Because the experience of other LBSs with their own MLCers is different than your experience.
To me, a better question is why do you keep arguing the point when it is clear they are not going to be swayed—and neither are you. You think you have won the argument, but it’s not quite a win since they are not conceding to you and so you continue to beat the dead horse. Just stop!
Accept that people are not always going to agree with you no matter how sound you think your arguments are.
You’ve also added several additional pieces to your argument. They know what they are doing and they know what they are doing is wrong are two separate things, some may agree with one of those and not the other.


This whole, poor MLCers who cannot stop themselves and do not know what they are doing is weird. We know they know. They say so themselves. Do you guys really believe someone is having an affair, got divorced, went live with OW/OM, married OW/OM and don't know what they are doing?
How does someone has an affair and does not know it?  How does someone lives with someone else and does not know it? How does someone get divorced and does not know it? How does someone remarries and does not know it?
Our MLCers know enough when it comes to their professional and social life. Why do some LBS believe they don't know when it comes to MLC related things? What they may not know is why they are doing what they are doing. That is different from not knowing what they are doing.
Anjae, your desire to be so logical has its merits, but it can at times leave you with a narrow view. You are taking this literally. Yes, many know the literal facts of the case… But that is not always what is being discussed when we talk about whether an MLCer knows what they are doing.
Another difference could be the difference between Knowing and Understanding.

As I said above, this is really a much deeper question than you are making it and I actually find it a rather interesting topic of discussion. But I also have no interest in this particular discussion as an argument. Your methods are leaving people feeling bullied,  belittled, unsupported, disrespected…


 

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