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Author Topic: Discussion Grief and the LBS

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Discussion Re: Grief and the LBS
#20: September 01, 2019, 01:47:17 AM
I am sorry you are so sad for the loss of your mother. That is even harder than MLC, IMO, because it's not like your mom had any kind of choice at all.

In  my world, Grief is what you feel, mourning is how you express it. So it could be that a person expressions of "mourning" may seem off to someone else. Some might mourn by crying, some by helping another, some by fixing something up, some by creating an alter for the loved one. Sometimes the mourning runs to something different as you heal, I think.

It may be that the LBS also has a change around the 3-4 year mark. I remember for the first year I was stalled. Could not do much of anything, which is why I drove off road. No choice but to engage. But I couldn't read, could not clean, could not create, didn't care. About the beginning of third year, I put up the first fake tree in the bedroom and it made me feel so much better. But then in standard life style, other stressors came into my life, one after the other. Honestly, if a lot of us looked at the last years we've endured with everything being in there, we've probably hit most of the major life stressors, and for myself it's no wonder my body rebelled and my brain shut down. For myself there was Death of a close family member, Marital separation, Divorce, Personal injury or illness (X2), then Death of a close family member again in less than four years. Add to that Change in health of family member,Change in financial state,Change in number of arguments with spouse, gaining a mortgage, having to go back to work after being not too employed for 20 + years, children leaving for college, paying for college, Spouse lost his job, spouse wrecked his car, changes in sleeping habits, changes in diet...I could go on and so could most everyone else here.

Then at some point, we get a new normal. I know recently I've certainly stepped up my game. It's now easier to let things go, I mean material things and emotional things. Grief paralyzed me for a while. Then I didn't know what to do with it because I just kept getting hit again and again, it's like I couldn't even come up for air. Complaining about it didn't help, I'm a doer, not a whiner. (That fixer tendency rears it's head). But feeling the grief, and then thinking "How can I honor this feeling?" has started to work. How can I honor the sadness that the children are no longer living here? Make this my sanctuary and a lovely place they want to come visit. How do I honor the grief over the death of my marriage? Create scrapbooks of the visual proof that we had a fabulous life and that even if he doesn't remember it, I do. And the children will, too, because I will have documented it. How do I honor my mother and her efforts (because she did the best she could dysfunctional as it was)? By doing better with my own children, which sometimes includes pinging them upside the head and letting them ping me upside the head.

Anyway, those are my own random thoughts. I should probably go to bed. Tomorrow I load up three cars of quality belongings to go to the second hand store. I WILL have new garage doors, and if I want them, I have to get the quality belongings everyone else left behind out of the way. Those surfboards may end up a table after all.

Stressful events listed at this site.
https://paindoctor.com/top-10-stressful-life-events-holmes-rahe-stress-scale/
Death of a spouse (or child*): 100
Divorce: 73
Marital separation: 65
Imprisonment: 63
Death of a close family member: 63
Personal injury or illness: 53
Marriage: 50
Dismissal from work: 47
Marital reconciliation: 45
Retirement: 45

80% likelihood of illness for scores over 300
50% likelihood of illness for scores between 150-299
30% likelihood of illness for scores less than 150
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Re: Grief and the LBS
#21: September 01, 2019, 04:50:55 AM
That's exactly it, OR....how can I honour what I feel? And their presence in my life now that they are absent.

First year, overwhelmed. Second year, numb avoidance, hit and hit again. Third year, trying to fight my way through and flailing around trying to escape it. Fourth year now....really wanting to do what I need to move forward and the unfinished bits of grief come back with that. Read somewhere it is called Regrief and apparently very normal. Apart from RL folks who haven't experienced big loss and major life renovation  :)....hate to think how many points I would have scored on the stressor test!

Yes, it feels like a need to honour my lost people and the old me even. Partly bc I don't want to forget things about them now that I am the only one left to remember some of these things. Partly as a way of saying a kind of thank you and goodbye which feels like a last bit of accepting the reality of their loss. And the permanence of it, that this is the new normal now. With my father, i got to say goodbye. I got to bury him. I got to give a eulogy. I got to listen to other people's memories. I got to mourn and to hold on to the bits of him in me. I didn't have the chance to do that with everything and everyone else.

So I've started a little memory book and when things pop up that I want to remember about any of them, I can write them down. Like a scrapbook too, some photos and little mementos. Lots of tears as I do it but good tears. Definitely more mourning than grief though as you say. Feels more constructive somehow.
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 04:53:29 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#22: September 01, 2019, 07:52:27 AM
Terra, yes you and me have both found EMDR helpful I think. Interested in what you say about 'active' grief work...can you say a bit more about what that has entailed for you?

Have others found other kinds of therapy useful for grief?

[...]

Have other people also had significant losses either in the couple of years pre BD or the couple of years after?

Treasur, it took a long time to isolate my father loss as the deepest and core grief. When he died, I was not permitted to express any of it. Even forty years later, I’m punished and shut out for speaking my feelings about my dad.

That’s been cruel and ridiculous for decades. What do you do when it’s your own mother and family ostracizing you — for having legitimate feelings, and legitimate need to express the anguish, fear, bewilderment, etc. and to receive support or comfort for that?

I received the total opposite. So made a choice to end all relationship to my mother and others in the family. That was the first work: finding a way to end a really unhealthy dynamic.

The second work was to sit with the father loss grief and really feel it, for the first time in my life, now that I’d carved a protected space for it. And I was ready to defend and protect that new space at all costs, no matter what anyone thought or said. Between h’s moveaway BD and the various destructive events with my FOO that same year, I was not going to survive another year if I didn’t at least get clear on the father loss grief.

This year was the first time I could even think “I miss my dad” without some kind of external recrimination. The next step was to feel that, both the missing him and the new safety of being able to think it without any of the usual players seeing it on my face and knocking me around about it.

And after sitting with these feelings a while, I carefully said it out loud, to myself: “I miss my dad.”

I really miss my dad.

Saying it out loud, finally, was a real game changer. That was the third work, actively pronouncing those syllables and doing so until it was clear the truth is mine to say out loud and to say with authority every time I feel the need to express that pain. Maybe that’s silly, or minor to someone else. But it was important to get to the actual saying of it, and repeating it, because for decades it was trapped and stuck and externally disallowed.

This exercise resulted in a lot of very clear anger at those who blocked my grief expression over the years. H is one of them, but as with my grief hierarchy, there is an anger hierarchy. The bulk of my anger is at my mother. She took pleasure in punishing the father loss grief and still did, decades later. The last punishing was the last straw. As a mother myself, I can’t see any scenario in which I would ever cause my own daughter this level of derangement even once. It is very specifically about my father loss and now that I’ve said my fact aloud and finally own it, it won’t be silenced or shut down or disallowed ever again. It shouldn’t have been in the first place. And a mother should not have done it.

Maybe the anger placement was fourth active work. But beyond that, I lose count.

The next work was to revisit the agent of my father’s death. That required review of old files and narrowing down a search until I located that person. I am satisfied with the result but had to sit with that a long while also. And then it was time for collecting records.

The records collection task has been multi-layered and involves a few locales and streams of information that I have to parse and then write and present. Sometimes out of area, so, planning trips and itineraries and readying myself for those formal arenas. And that maybe doesn’t sound like grief work. Most people outside those systems or tasks think it’s much smaller or easier than it is. It occurred to me recently that these people probably don’t have experience with that specific loss topic (yet) or with the systems I need to work with to get answers or resolution or to move forward. So another grief task is identifying how much to even say to anyone, how to say it, and how to identify who is safe to say it to.

Most of the active grief work is sitting with the feelings and really feeling them. Noticing whether they are articulate, or non-verbal, and when it’s non-verbal, why is that different? And is there a physical gesture or action that might express the feelings that don’t have words? And if there is a physical gesture or action that might express a non-verbal feeling, make the gesture or take that action. The grief has to be expressed and let out. It can’t be locked and stuck anymore.

All of that can take a long time, and I have given myself carte blanche this whole year to just grieve. Have forfeited paid employment to do so, and have no regrets about that at all.

Most of my FOO and also h and maybe really anyone would consider this all “navel gazing” or melodramatic, or victim behavior, and highly irresponsible of me. I know exactly what it is and this year I won’t be spoken against. It’s my right to grieve and no one is going to hinder it. I won’t survive functionally if I don’t complete this work.

One last or crucial part of the active work is to seek and secure support people who can help, hold place, companion you, and/or comfort you as you move through your grief experiences, actions, and expression. Grief is NOT something we have to do alone.

Where you asked about other helpful therapies, it can be helpful to look at your total body of grief and at the timeline of losses in your overall life, age 0 to present. A genogram and a 1:1 track with “grief recovery method” specialist helped me winnow out what deserved my especial attention and what did not, and why.

I will tell you, key people in my life all HATE that I feel it is important to attend my own grief. My siblings, D15, and two or three friends are the only ones supporting it.

Your memory books sound so soothing and valuable beyond words. I love that you have found that action and are doing the work this way. I hope I can get to that point; in the meantime, I seem to be in movement a lot so am taking photos and collecting bits of moments, so that when the time comes, I can put something together visually for myself, the whole picture.
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 07:57:18 AM by terra »

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#23: September 01, 2019, 09:01:08 AM
Strangely terra I said out loud too for the first time since Jan 2016 'I miss my mum'....it sounds small as you say but it was a big deal to me. Even though there was no one to hear me. But just saying it feels like taking a plug out of a sink....almost giving myself permission to mourn for the mum I had bc I reallly do miss her.

Disenfranchised grief, grief that isn't 'allowed' or 'acerptable', can keep us stuck I think bc it stops us mourning. That's a challenge probably for a lot of LBS. Plus the ambiguity of losing a loved one who is here but not in some way or who left without a certain end or left mentally even if they are there physically...the uncertainty can keep us stuck too probably.
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 09:08:48 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#24: September 01, 2019, 02:37:15 PM
Just catching up Treasur.... There is a lot of 'stuff' in this thread.   I am up to my neck with my "Must Do" list otherwise I would post more frequently. 

I am reading along but time is limited for posting.   A few brief comments for now. 

From Treasur:
Quote
I am so sorry, Anon, for the loss of your mother followed by BD. It must have been unimaginably hard to cope with both in a healthy way. Do you think BD affected how you coped with your mother's death? Or vice versa?

For most of her life my mother was very difficult not just with her family but with almost everyone.  Having her as a parent was hard.   I saw her mean side pretty much every day and her soft loving side maybe,,, once a week or less.  She was just so difficult to get along with.   We all figured she had some kind of personality disorder - Narcissism or BPD?  Both?   Around 85 yrs she showed the first signs of dementia.   Things got much worse dealing with her for the next few years.  It didn't surprise anyone really.   Me and the rest of the family became outcasts in her life.  A few years of this then she was admitted to long term care.  It was there she was given medication to ease the dementia symptoms.   They worked somewhat but an unexpected benefit from those meds was this.   Her soft and loving side came out and stayed out.  Her sourness disappeared.  She was alert and eager for some mother/daughter conversation.   She was wonderful.   We had real conversations for the first time I can remember.   I was able to confide in her and share with her my life and she loved every minute of our time together.   It was the most incredible gift to have this side of my mother for the last 6 months or her life.  Prior to that, my experience with her my entire life was caustic, acrimonious, and I had a tough time visiting her for more than 3 days at a time.    One day the nurse referred to her as the most lovely soul and they all loved her.   I completely agreed she was lovely but I did say she hadn't been this way prior to coming to the care centre and described the decades long difficulty we all had with her.   The nurse told me that very often people go for years with untreated mental illness and what I saw with my mother wasn't all that unusual.  The dementia medication likely altered her brain chemistry enough to suppress whatever it was that made her so difficult over the years.  Whatever it was I was grateful for these last 6 months with her.   She passed away unexpectedly although at her age this often happens.   

After my mother passed away, I was busy for several weeks preparing for her memorial service.   It was beautiful and was a real honor to her.  Many of her friends told me they would love if their family did a similar memorial when it was there time.   I grieved of course but not fully.   I had too much to do until after the service. 

Then I got BD'd 6 weeks later and my grieving, mourning, honoring my mother was completely sidelined and shelved.   In an instant my grieving, mourning came to an abrupt halt while I dealt with my crisis as a LBS.   I know I am not done grieving her but I am also not ready to bring that down from the shelf and resume it.   My grief for the loss of my life as I knew it has overshadowed pretty much everything.   I am much better but I am also still seriously affected by the horror of what happened to me.   How long I wonder before I can feel again the other things I need to feel.   I just feel numb for now about her passing,,, as if I don't have the energy to process the grief work of my blown up life and her passing at the same time.   I'm sure it will come one day though.   Before MLC I smiled when thinking of my mother in those last 6 months.    I had 6 weeks of that before MLC hit and took that pleasure away from me.  I cry thinking about it and I feel horrible that the MLC bomb derailed the grieving for my mother.   I also resent my h for the insensitivity and cruelty to do that to me in those early weeks after her passing.   I was already suffering her loss and he intentionally piled on top of that the horror of MLC.   I think back to those early days after BD and like most of us I wonder how on earth I managed to survive.  The loss was just so enormous. 

Okay,, ,that took longer to type out than I thought - and my To Do list in not just calling me but hollering.   Thanks Treasur for opening up this topic.   It really helped to consider that there is still more grieving to come where my mother is concerned. 




 



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« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 02:55:35 PM by Anon »

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#25: September 03, 2019, 12:46:31 AM
I'm glad that the universe gave you those last few months of a different kind of connection with your mother, Anon. I had something similar with mine at Christmas last and it felt like a real gift.

I think you are not alone here in having the grieving process curtailed or shelved by the impact of BD and the ensuing WTF stuff. We only have so much emotional bandwidth don't we? And that it is healthy to accept that there may be mourning yet to do when you are ready to do it.

And yes it is tremendously cruel to be devalued and discarded when we are bereaved. Or indeed seriously ill. Both seem to be not uncommon for LBS.  I cycle between disbelief and anger that my xh was capable of that and acknowledgement that whatever happened to him simply made everything and everyone else irrelevant to him. Including my parents who loved him and who he had loved for years. The people in his new life of course don't expect anything else, don't see it as important or a red flag in any way...they should of course bc the ability to treat others that way after years of connection is not a good sign is it? But he/they will learn that for themselves I guess. Or not.

Can't understand it....but it was brutal to experience when I was already so vulnerable. And looking back, my bereavement undoubtedly affected my ability to cope with what happened. I think it delayed my capacity to face the hard facts as I would have done had my situation been different...if only actually bc I would have had a support steam that I did not have. I can't change that. And it is the hardest thing to even try to forgive tbh...I may never be able to do so and accepting the cruelty of it did force me to see my then h with a different lens, to respect him less as a person tbh, almost to be disgusted.. Probably just one more reason why NC was a good choice for my healing.

But I think grief time...bc it seems to work differently doesn't it?...does stretch until we can find a way to accept and make peace with the hard realities. I have found that I accepted reality to a point but there was/is a bit of me that simply did not want to. I could accept the loss I suppose but wasn't quite ready to say some kind of final goodbye bc I really didn't want to do that. Passive acceptance felt do-able; active embracing felt impossible. Choosing to say Goodbye to my people but also to that bit of my life and the bit of me that was a much-loved daughter and a wife who had not experienced what I have now experienced.

I have just given mego the equivalent of a wet fish slap to the head about the need to face real facts in order to move forward. Much as we don't want to accept them. Probably a waste of time and words. But it is no less true for where I am and where many of us reach after the storm eases.
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 12:52:53 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#26: September 06, 2019, 11:45:10 AM

Two books I highly recommend are The Grief Recovery Handbook, James and Friedman, and Eve Wood's, The Gift of Betrayal.  Somewhat off-topic, but helpful is Radical Acceptance, by Tara Brach, and Giving the Love that Heals, by Harvill Hendrix and his wife. 

Ten years later, I STILL keep these in my nightstand and go back over certain sections when I need to.  I think if it's easy to stop grieving a loss, you never really valued what you had...  Most "normal" grief subsides because you can treasure fond memories.  Losing parents, and other loved ones, moving away from friends, and old co-workers, those are all normal grief.  The grief that comes with having the person you most love and trust rip away EVERYTHING you thought you knew is different.  When you can't trust than any of your recollections are real or valid, all you can do is grieve, and, hopefully, forgive, and not your wayward spouse, but yourself.  You have to grieve the loss of the person you were, the naive and trusting one, and if you have children, the loss of their innocence and the family you were supposed to have, forever.  And you have to forgive, really, truly forgive yourself for even thinking any of it was your fault, that you should have, could have, would have know better, done differently. 

It's that endless cycle, but it does get better and easier.  The pain gets less acute, but there will be times when it still stabs you in the heart.  Some of them are obvious--weddings, funerals, graduations.  But others will be weird and unexpected.  So, it helps to have some mantra, or something to help you through.  That is why I love Tara Brach so much.  Now I can recognize when the grief or fear are coming and I know to breathe, acknowledge the feelings, and let them go, fully respecting myself and everyone else in the process, and knowing that I still get to decide to make a new past that I can celebrate in place of the grief. 

Love and light, ll
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The best thing about banging your head against the wall for so long is that it feels so good when you finally stop...

BD 1/16/10
D Final 7/21/11
exH married OW the next week and moved across the country to be with her... 

LL CHOSE to live happily ever after...

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#27: September 12, 2019, 06:13:10 AM
For me when I think of Grief it is the status /feeling - being struck down by the horror of it all, the shock, the denial, the curling up into a ball screaming, the not being able to bear it. When I think of Mourning I think of acceptance the loss and moving through the mine field of feelings trying to find my way out.
Treasure - you hit a nerve when you said that you haven't decided decided on "Living' yet - that is exactly what I feel. I am not suicidal and have good days, but I do not have the 'joy de vivre' -- I just couldn't put it in words as well as you. I have not recommitted myself to life. Strangely it feels good just saying that out loud. That's what's still missing....I have not recommitted myself.

I also belief that we must mourn each loss in our life or it will come back trifold later on. My father left us when I was 14 and completely cut us out of his life. My mother then turned to alcohol, so she was absent for most of my teen years as well. I never thought to actually mourn either one of those losses. I thought I was fine and it was just life and move on sister.
Only after BD and trying to wrap my head around why a man leaving me devastated me the way it did, did I realize and admit to myself that those were losses and I never mourned them. 
So, then I had to now grieve the loss of the three most important people in my life.

Slowly but surely I am dissecting each loss and trying to work through it.
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H 51
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Re: Grief and the LBS
#28: September 13, 2019, 04:18:10 PM
A rather lovely conversation between Stephen Colbert and Anderson Cooper about the reality of how grief changes you https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YB46h1koicQ
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T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.


"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: Grief and the LBS
#29: September 13, 2019, 10:38:44 PM
Oh, wow. That one is well worth the time to watch and listen.

That is probably the most intelligent discussion of grief I have ever heard.

Treasur, thank you. This one comes at exactly the right time for me.
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