[megogirl]

Just like abusers, it is all in the way the other person is perceived. And for many MLCers the LBS is perceived and less than human, total trash.

ShockSis makes absolutely no bones about that.

She has repeatedly said that she treated him horribly, and then came out of MLC and regretted everything.  She realized that her H was #1 and wished that she could return, but he had already moved on.

Can we refrain from chastising this dear person who is only trying to help us?!?

[lawprofessor]

SS,

I'm trying to understand the fine line you are drawing between the pain you caused as a MLCer and the issue of having a MLC.

I'd agree with much of what you said and have said the same for years here as to being compelled.  I've got my own in house recovered MLCer. 

"I personally don’t feel I owe my ex h an apology for the fact I wasn’t capable of controlling my own mind though I feel deeply sorry for what happened there is a difference. Ultimately I didn’t have control of entering MLC, it just happens to some people at certain times in their lives."

Here is where I'm very uncomfortable with the analogy you use.

I'd have to say this is about the opposite of what my J believes.  He believes it was a series of his own choices that led him to being compelled to have his crisis as we discussed in therapy.

"I do hope this helps in some way to understand that the MLCer is no more responsible for this than a random lightning bolt hitting your house. "

I suppose you mean the act of having a MLC.  Perhaps not as I think a part of MLC is the chance to heal and mature so they have the chance to lead healthy lives.

But that's only true after all other chances have been expended and choices were made to not deal with issues or deal with issues and feelings in an unhealthy manner. And those things, those choices laid the groundwork for having a MLC.  That is where I see the fault lies since not everyone who has an abusive childhood or the death of friends, siblings, or a patent etc has a MLC. 

And that is right back with the MLCer. His choices. 

My J made choices that he didn't have to make as he did.

He chose to not attend grief counseling.
He chose to drink.
He chose to do drugs.
He chose not to use a condom and make 3 children when very young.
He chose to not attend counseling with the rest of his siblings to learn to cope with the childhood abuse.
He chose not to attend marriage therapy to learn proper communication techniques.
He chose not to get sober even when court ordered and even when incarcerated.
He chose not to attend parenting classes.
He chose to do nothing to build his own self esteem
He choose to be conflict avoidant
He chose to not take responsibility or deflect responsibility when something went wrong
To name a few

Because it was just easier to repeat old patterns

And he reaffirmed those decisions for over 20 years leading up to his MLC, until it became too late and he began his MLC. 

He chose his path which led to a MLC. 
It's irrelevant that he didn't know those choices were going to lead to a crisis.
He had a MLC and as a result the rest of us became collateral damage. 

Both things are his fault and in owning those he grew up and got healthy.

I just don't see the point you're making in drawing a line between having a MLC and actions during the crisis, I suppose.  A MLC doesn't just happen to some people randomly in my opinion.  It's the result of a series of experiences and choices and personality in my opinion, at least many of which are within a person's control. 

Bad things happen to all throughout our lives.  How we deal with those things is our responsibility.  At least in my opinion.  Therefore I don't see this as a random bolt of lightning hitting my house.  I see this as a drunk driver hitting my house.  Sure he didn't know what he was doing at the time but hes still at fault because he made decisions that led up to his being a drunk and out of his mind when he hit my house. 

It doesn't just begin when the fog arrives.  The seeds are laid long before that.  In my opinion and experience.

So are you saying all choices, events, decisions, reactions, feelings, and patterns of behavior in the years before the MLC were not in your control or were simply unrelated to you having a MLC?

Lp

[Shockandawe]

Anjae

I respect your opinion as I would expect you to respect mine

[Shockandawe]

Lawproffesor

I do not and cannot speak for every MLCer but I can and will speak for myself!
What your MLCER chose to do or not to do May very well have pushed him into MLC but he is not me and for whatever reason he went in he is not me, has not lived my life and does not know any of my history. I strongly maintain issues from my childhood concerning my own father’s MLC and my underdeveloped and immature coping mechanism meant that I simply hadn’t the ability to cope with him leaving us.  Years later, when he was terminally ill and lived less than 3 months from diagnosis to death it happened so quickly the ability to process it wasn’t there and I felt the familiar feelings I had so long ago hidden deep down resurface and reverted back to the only thing I knew to deal with it.
I have said I didn’t choose to go into MLC and I stand by what I said if it’s offensive to you then I cannot help that and maybe we should agree to disagree.
As I also said each MLCer is a different person to the next and the length of time each takes is different too. The strong similarities in MLC are too many to not think this is something in the human brain which switches on as means of protection.

[megogirl]

ShockSis!!!

I, for one, hear and believe everything you are saying.

I liken it to being gay.  Many people believe that it is a choice to be gay.  My BFF from college insisted, "Who would ever choose this lifestyle of their own free will?  To be ostracized and vilified?" 

Am I right?  Because I believe that he was, and believe that you are....!

[Thunder]

Like I said, I know of NO person in their right mind that would choose to have a midlife crisis.
Why would you choose to blow up your family and choose to be so miserable?  These people are not well.

I guess I find it hard to understand how someone can blame them for this.  Maybe blame them for how they handled their crisis, but not blame them FOR their crisis.  That was not their fault.
Expect them to think in any kind of rational way.."Oh I better get help because my thinking is screwed up."  Most of them think they are just fine.  Their massively confused.

They are not thinking rational while in a midlife crisis.  How can you really expect them to make rational decisions?
Like a drunk who runs someone over in a drunken state. 
Of course they should feel remorse for running over a human being, and apologize for their actions...show remorse, try to make amends, but to apologize for having an alcoholic disease makes no sense to me. 
I know MLC is not a disease, but it is definitely a disorder of some kind.

I agree with you Sis, and that is not offensive to me.   You did not consciously choose to do this to your H and I'm pretty positive you would not have if you had been thinking anywhere near rational.

[lawprofessor]

Wow what a response.

Just where are we disagreeing so hugely?  I think I said several places I agreed with you. Did you miss that?

I don't think anyone said you shouldn't speak for yourself.  Isn't that what you do here?  And if I didn't want your opinion, I wouldn't have asked you a question.

And where do you read into my post that anything you said was offensive?  I said it made me confused as to why you were drawing a line between those two parts
And another part I said made me uncomfortable.  Where is the offensive part? 

Neither did I say you were him or he you or that all MLCers were the same or all experiences were the same.

Neither did I say anyone chooses to go into MLC.  Where you read that, I don't know. I said there were things that helped lead up to the MLC, that were part of the pre MLC person.  Those parts were within the control of the MLCer in part in my opinion.   

You mentioned an immature coping response.  That begs the point I was asking about. Who is responsible for you having an immature coping response?  Since that was pre-MLC it can't be a result of your MLC.

I simply asked you a question including the background of my experiences to clarify why I was confused.

If you want to react and read into my post, rather than have a discussion about what I actually said, that's your choice.  I had simply hoped for your opinion on J's thoughts rather than a reactive response sprinkled with exclamation points.  It's OK for people to differ in opinion and still have mature conversations after all. 

Nevermind.  I'm no longer curious.
Lp

[Anjae]

Can we refrain from chastising this dear person who is only trying to help us?!?

Can we refrain from chastising those whose views aren't all like SS, especially the ones of those of us who had a MLC ourselves, and therefore have our version and views of MLC, as well of those who have years of experience with MLCers and former MLCers?

Anyone who is neither a former MLCer or who does not have years of experience with MLCers or former MLCers can also have their own views on the matters at hand.

I still stand by my thoughts that MLCers should not ever be allowed to sign legal papers etc.

This I fully agree with, but there is nothing that can be done. There is no way of preventing a MLCer from signing legal papers, hiring a lawyer, going to court, etc. 

You mentioned an immature coping response.  That begs the point I was asking about. Who is responsible for you having an immature coping response?  Since that was pre-MLC it can't be a result of your MLC.

Indeed.However, I wouldn't say the pre-MLC existing immature coping response is not the cause, or sole cause, of MLC. Without anxiety, stress and depression, I don't think it would reach MLC level.

The strong similarities in MLC are too many to not think this is something in the human brain which switches on as means of protection.

It is far more complicated than a protection mechanism of the brain, but I am not going to get into all the very complex neurological details. In essence, depression, anxiety and stress, the three things that always seem to be present in MLC, cause a series of processes in the brain as well as in the body.

It is not the MLC, or even the depression, that cause what is called protection, it is the reward system, usually the insane release of dopamine that floods the brain, leading to some feel good effects - much like with heroin or other drugs or behaviours that also lead to insane amounts of dopamine release.

That is why the affair or any other MLC behaviour seems great. For a while, at least. As with addiction, more and more is required to obtain the same effect because the brain is now addicted to its own chemicals, dopamine being only one of them. Aa this is happening, several other things are also happening in brain and body.


Thunder, the drunk who runs over someone while drunk is going to have to apologize. And probably pay the person that was runned over, or their relatives if the person dies. The drunk may end up in jail and often does.

SS's herself said she wished MLC was medically recognised because that way she may had not done what she did. Which leads to the conclusion she thinks something can be done. And if a doctor could had helped, then it is not helpless, is it?

[OffRoad]

If I were to trip over a hose, accidentally push another person into the street while trying to catch my balance, and they got run over by a car and were killed, I didn't do it on purpose, but that other person is still dead. I would apologize to that person's family for the pain they feel because I accidentally pushed their family member into the path of an oncoming car and they were killed. I pushed him, though I didn't mean to.

When a person ends up in a situation not of their making and harms another in some way, the sociatal expectation is that they apologize for the harm they caused. Not minimize the harm that happened to the other person.

To me, that is the difference between the person who is genuinely sorry for the pain they have caused or contributed to, and the person who wants to believe their actions don't affect others.  I have never understood why apologizing for hurting another individual, even if unintentional, seems to be an issue. I'd really like to understand that.

[Standing Strong]

I think it's important to remember that Shocks is responding based on her experience and viewpoint and there's no one MLC viewpoint.... all the experiences are unique.
It's fascinating to hear from someone who went thru it, and then use that to try and understand all our unique MLC'er in turn..... but they won't all line up.

It's the similarities which are very useful in particular..... and I really appreciate Shocks for helping so much.

Just want to make sure this isn't an attack session again as has happened in the past. We're all busted up to some extent or another as LBS's..... and so are ex-MLC'ers.
Hopefully we can help Shocks as much as she helps us.

-SS