[Treasur]

My post Thunder was not about her choice re her xh. You're quite right, that is hers to make. Or indeed his. And you're quite right too, as I said on an earlier post, that it may be as difficult for an MLCer to 'get' the experience of an LBS as vice versa.

My post was in response to the bit of the discussion about SS feeling that she was being asked to say sorry for having an MLC and responded quite idk testily, whereas I saw people simply challenging her on remorse and accountability for the effects of her MLC actions on others.  ShockSis is usually very kind and measured in her responses, and so her reaction was out of the norm. Hence my challenge to her that if it hit a tender spot, that may be telling her something useful about the extent to which she has shaken off the last bits of MLC residue. A kind of arrogance, a bit black and white or an unwillingness to listen to more than ones own justifying story. Tbh we LBS can fall into the same trap too can't we?

The lightening strike metaphor may be how she feels about the experience from the inside, but not necessarily how it was for others on the outside and it does sound like regret more than remorse to say 'it was beyond my control so nothing I can/should do'. Plus a danger in a kind of mind reading about what the people we hurt need or don't, and that the onus is on them to ask for remorse rather than the other to offer it. Just as Nah said....why would showing honest acknowledgement and remorse hurt someone? How can you have empathy without listening to someone else's pain? And why would they be honest with you after years of indifference to their pain if you don't first show remorse? And isn't it ShockSis's xh's business what he does with that instead of ShockSis making that decision for him? Again as Nah said, we LBS don't get much choice or respect in MLC.

We love and value ShockSis....but it is also reality that her actions deeply hurt people she loved. We all wish that were not so, but it is how it goes. I honestly believe that accountability is vital for anyone to heal and I want ShockSis to heal fully (even if it's not my business) bc I value and respect her. I am offering an outside POV but I am not judging her. I don't know enough to do so and it isn't my place. I suppose I don't see questioning as judging...just questioning. I am comfortable that others including you and ShockSis may disagree with me. And I may be wrong. Either way I have shared my POV and will now stop being a bore and repeating myself.

[forthetrees]

I´m having a hard time accepting that an MLCer has no choice and is compelled into the journey. My ex did go to the dr. with me, got a dx of a personality change. He went alone to dr. got prescribed anti-anxiety meds AND counseling but only took the pills and did not tell me of the counseling piece. Depression/anxiety have a lot of overlap and I know that depression goes along with inflammation in the brain and that there is a blood marker for it. What MLCer´s have is inflammation and a sparse took kit for dealing with the emotional duress that ensues. Being offered the tools to help oneself and taking a pass on that opportunity is something I leave at the feet of the MLCer. For me the question is why does a MLCer disregard the lifelines that are offered and go off on a journey in which they are still feeling like crap much of the time? Pain is useful in that it forces change. If the MLCer has no growth from the experience, what a loss of opportunity. I would say that the vast majority of LBSers do grow from the pain- what other choice do we have?

In my life, the two people who hurt me the most are two people who almost never apologized for anything. What is it about the inability to apologize? Ex- never apologized for anything. My mother apologized for hitting me as a child- but did it 20-30 years later. While it is of value to know that she acknowledged that it was wrong, the extreme delayed timing takes away much of the positive impact of the apology.

What is the emotional and health cost to the MLCer for not apologizing?

[nah]

Treasur... you are far from a bore and your thoughts make perfect sense to me.

[Thunder]

Thank you for your nice response, Treasur.  I agree it is good to give a persons POV on a subject where people are not in agreement, it is sometimes very useful and thought provoking to possibly look at something differently, or from a different angle.

Let's face it LBS's and MLCer's do look at things differently.  Nature of the beast, I guess.

I suppose there can be a fine line sometimes between questioning and judging.
All in how a person takes it.

I do know you do not judge people, I have never seen it anyway.  You have always been very supportive with people.  I was just starting to feel uncomfortable as to where this was all leading.  There are people who just don't agree with SS's decision and sometimes, as we all know, a thread can blow up pretty easily when emotions run high.   

Sorry for highjacking your thread, SS.  Back to your Q & A thread.   

[Treasur]

I do know you do not judge people, I have never seen it anyway.

Oh idk...I'm sure i've had my moments  but I try hard to judge behaviour not humans bc we all mess up sometimes, me as much as others.

You have always been very supportive with people.

Thank you, what a nice thing to say.
I guess my version of support (maybe bc I am a coach) includes asking tough questions of myself and others sometimes. Bc I guess I believe truth is worth chasing for ourselves and that uncomfortable questions sometimes open a window to new and delightful answers 

[Watcher]

IDK why there is such a need for an apology and who would it really serve. I lived with a woman who was diagnosed clinically depressed and had anxiety for 16 years. Maybe that's why I always just viewed her crisis as an extension of her ongoing depression. She never had to apologize for her depression. She didn't ask for depression nor her crisis nor her mental illness.

I am a strong believer that her crisis is deeply rooted in childhood trauma. My W has described her mind as never stopping. The thoughts are always racing. I do believe she recognizes the choices that she is making. On the flip side I don't believe she can stop herself. No mother would consciously destroy the lives of her 2 son's.

I filed for divorce finally as a means of financial protection. My MLCer better be compelled to sign it. 
My sons will need a financially stable parent when she eventually does crash.

Maybe ShockSis  XH doesn't need an apology like me. I always just wanted a fist bump.  Maybe he already notices the changes. Maybe he can tell that she has exited her crisis. Maybe he is just as scared or apprehensive to broach the subject as I know I would be. On top of it the man is married and has a new family. Maybe he has his own guilt. I know guilt plays a big role in my life.

Crisis life becomes the new normal as it eventually replaces our dead past. I will know when my W exited her crisis. There would be no need for an apology. There is no script for how one has to behave once the crisis has ended.

ShockSis I read you with both hesitation and fascination. I don't know how I would handle when or if the day ever came when my W became the next ShockSis. 

I wish you continued strength on your journey. 

[Anjae]

All Treasur said in her last two posts. - before the latest one.

My posts also had nothing to do with SS's husband. I actually understand why she does not want to reach further to him. If I am not mistaken, she had said in past threads she had apologize to him.

Like Treasur I see MLCish in the defensiveness regarding our questions, they are questions and also our opinion.

I also see, and that is what I see, a lack of understanding in the true pain and troubles caused to the LBS. Someone who never was a LBS probably cannot understand and phantom the hugeness of pain and trauma their actions caused.


I am both, LBS and former MLC. My MLC come with BD, so I don't have to deal with the issues many other MLCers have. I also asked for help and got it, so that may be why things didn't got that bad.

Being offered the tools to help oneself and taking a pass on that opportunity is something I leave at the feet of the MLCer.

So do I. Mr J was offered two GPs, one at his disposal on his pre-MLC company, a couple of psychiatrist, one neurologist, one endocrinologist (SIL thought he may had thyroid issues like she and MIL have had) and a couple of therapists.

His pre-MLC company also offered him sick leave, not that they had to. He could get it from his normal GP. He refused it all and was extremely rude to his pre-MLC GP went so far as closing his office door on the doctors face and locking himself inside the office.

With so much help, he is the sole responsible for the following mess that come, every sort of damage he caused me, etc. The doctors and the lawyers agress on that, so it is not just me saying it. They all it is on him and he is the sole responsible.

For me the question is why does a MLCer disregard the lifelines that are offered and go off on a journey in which they are still feeling like crap much of the time?

I don't know. But I would venture because the depression is making their thinking more and more messed, then when there is OW/OM there is a rush of euphoria and the MLCer feels great, even if briefly and thinks that is the solution.

They feel like crap most of the time because all sorts of brain and body levels fluctuate. MLCers don't tend to lead a balanced life. For each fantastic high there is a terrible low. Getting the fantastic high becomes harder and harder, but the lows keep growing worst and worst.

Pain is useful in that it forces change.

Pain only seems to serve to make the MLCer leave spouse/marriage and get into MLC activities. It does not seem to work to make them stop those things. Which, again, leads us to the highs and lows. If they stop whatever it is that still provides them with a bit of a high there will be an horrendous low, a very dark, deep place will be hit. Who wants to go there? No one. Yet, for the most part, if the MLCer does not go there, the MLCer will not get out of Replay.

My MLC was short and mild. The low was still terrible. But I had no choice. I was physically exhausted and crashed. I don't have the energy and stamina of most High Energy MLCers.

What is the emotional and health cost to the MLCer for not apologizing?

I don't know. But apologizing just for apologizing like Mr J has done several times does not seem to make a difference to the
MLCer's emotional health nor change a thing. For an out of Replay and possibly Liminality MLCer? I don't know.

Depression/anxiety have a lot of overlap and I know that depression goes along with inflammation in the brain and that there is a blood marker for it. What MLCer´s have is inflammation ...

Depression does not always goes along with inflammation in the brain. That is one of the things that can happen in the brain with depression, but not the only one and not always. Also, depression has different sources. Depression for lack of Vitamin D is not the same as clinical depression. Depression caused by thyroid issues is not the same as situational depression, etc.

Brain inflammation is  also related to depression duration - if the depression is the type that causes inflammation. We do not know what is going on in our MLCer's brains.

That I know off there is a blood test specifically for depression. What there are is blood tests to rule out several illnesses that cause depression, but aren't clinical/mental health depression.

There are tests being made with blood markers to determine if it is possible to detect depression with a blood test and reports with suggestions. But it would still leave us with what sort of depression is being detected.

And if MLCers have, or do not have, that sort of depression. High Energy MLCers do not have the normal depression sympthoms, wallowers tend to.

As a former MLCer, I think putting and end to the anxiety and stress right away would be an excellent think. That alone would help the thinking and the manicness.

[1trouble]

My post was in response to the bit of the discussion about SS feeling that she was being asked to say sorry for having an MLC and responded quite idk testily, whereas I saw people simply challenging her on remorse and accountability for the effects of her MLC actions on others.  ShockSis is usually very kind and measured in her responses, and so her reaction was out of the norm. Hence my challenge to her that if it hit a tender spot, that may be telling her something useful about the extent to which she has shaken off the last bits of MLC residue. A kind of arrogance, a bit black and white or an unwillingness to listen to more than ones own justifying story. Tbh we LBS can fall into the same trap too can't we?

The lightening strike metaphor may be how she feels about the experience from the inside, but not necessarily how it was for others on the outside and it does sound like regret more than remorse to say 'it was beyond my control so nothing I can/should do'. Plus a danger in a kind of mind reading about what the people we hurt need or don't, and that the onus is on them to ask for remorse rather than the other to offer it. Just as Nah said....why would showing honest acknowledgement and remorse hurt someone? How can you have empathy without listening to someone else's pain? And why would they be honest with you after years of indifference to their pain if you don't first show remorse? And isn't it ShockSis's xh's business what he does with that instead of ShockSis making that decision for him? Again as Nah said, we LBS don't get much choice or respect in MLC.

We love and value ShockSis....but it is also reality that her actions deeply hurt people she loved. We all wish that were not so, but it is how it goes. I honestly believe that accountability is vital for anyone to heal and I want ShockSis to heal fully (even if it's not my business) bc I value and respect her. I am offering an outside POV but I am not judging her. I don't know enough to do so and it isn't my place. I suppose I don't see questioning as judging...just questioning. I am comfortable that others including you and ShockSis may disagree with me. And I may be wrong. Either way I have shared my POV and will now stop being a bore and repeating myself.

I have highlighted just some of your post Treasur not to get at you but to show you what I saw in it, which is different from what you meant AND different no doubt from how others see things.....

1) You saw people challenging her remorse and accountability surely even the word challenging could be seen as 'demanding' or 'imposing'.  And to illustrate the point of why I agree with Thunder I saw pressure in the 'challenging'


2) You say you feel her response may have 'hit a tender spot', well maybe she is getting a bit fed up with having to justify her own personal decision not to approach her husband. This theme keeps coming up.
And BTW didnt you respond 'testily' to something I said the other day?
 from what I remember, your 'testiness' wasnt because it hit a nerve, you were just having a bad day.
To read anything in to SS 'testiness' and see it as a 'tender spot' in itself judgement IMO and to the project arrogance onto her when your following comments smack of it is quite frankly amazing and I will temper that by saying you are not normally an arrogant person, and I am sure you didnt meant it as such but see how we all read stuff into things?
 
3) We are LBS's we know what it is to be an LBS BUT very few of us have had our own CRISIS situation.  I firmly believe from what I have read and saw with my own eyes this is not something they with all brain chemicals firing normally.  She is on here to help people because she is consumed with guilt and shame and has said over and over again how she regrets it. 
The definition of remorse is what I see in Shocks sister, it may not be what you think it is but its what I see

4) The mind reading comment is ironic as thats what you are doing because you do not know the facts of SS situation even though she has explained them ad nauseam.

You are also talking in the collective about 'hurt people' I am someone who has been hurt but I dont need an apology, it wouldnt cut it, it wouldnt change anything, I would still get up tomorrow morning knowing that my life as it was is irrevocably changed.
I still have to live the life I have now.

5) And again deciding what Shocks H needs on his behalf is plain wrong. You dont know him anymore than I do, you have to respect SS decision and go back and read her reasons, what maybe right for other LBS's that have moved on and married does not make it right for him.

Nah is happily married, SS H is not thats the difference IMO, telling an unhappily married person (WITH KIDS) that she is sorry and regrets everything could mean instead of him putting the effort into sorting out his marriage and being sure of what he really wants, t could make him make a decision that causes further hurt, if I can understand that, I cant see why others cant!!

6) From everything SS has said I think she is fully aware she has hurt people and thats why she is on here to give something back BUT what your believes are on how people heal are not right for everyone.

Personally healing comes from moving forward, excepting whats happened, knowing and being grateful for what you had and the love you knew AND forgiving yourself and the person you love. See we LBS's all want and need different things.....

What was it Nah said, the best revenge is to lead a good life!!

Lasty I am sad this thread keeps getting bogged down with the same discussion on apology and remorse when there is a discussion thread now opened for that very thing.

I know an awful lot of LBS's are getting a huge amount from what SS is sharing especially newer LBS's and I hope she continues to post here xx 

[Anjae]

I didn't saw anyone challenging SS's, I saw people putting questions to her and having opinions and views that may not match hers.

We are LBS's we know what it is to be an LBS BUT very few of us have had our own CRISIS situation.

But the few of us who had know how it is. Yet, somehow, other LBS do not seem to pay much, if any attention, to what we say.

Not even when we say SS's is just one MLCer and when she generalizes she is just doing that and she generalized several times on this thread as well as in previous ones.

Not even when we say a fully recovered MLCer would not have the reactions SS's is having to the questions she was put regarding apologizing, regret, remorse - I don't mean in relation to her husband, I mean a MLCer in general.

IMO SS's is out of Replay and probably fully out of Liminality and at some early point in Rebirth. Or somewhere at the very end of Liminality and early Rebirth. She is not at the end of Re-integration or past it. There are many clues a former MLCer can spot that indicate where she most likely is on her MLC journey.

MLC does not end with Replay or Liminality.

Also, even if MLC script is pretty much the same and so is the basic MLC process, each MLCer is different in his/her own specificities.

[xyzcf]

Somehow, it feels like Shocksis must be "fixed"..that she is wrong in her understanding of her own MLC and the pain that it caused and that unless she makes amends the way we think she should, then she'd better do more soul searching.

I would be very troubled by some of the comments made to her..as a "loving 4x4"? What gives us that right?

I understand what Shocksis has said..she had a MLC. It was not her wish, nor her desire and it was unavoidable. Her actions, as well as what I have seen in my husband came from a different place inside.

She is trying to live her life, the hours that she spends patiently here, sharing her story and answering questions is one way she has chosen to "pay it forward".

We really should not be here to judge others or insist that they are wrong in their feelings. We are not their therapist not should we be.

LBSer or recovered MLCer, there should be support and kindness for each person's willingness to share their journey.

I do not like what is being said to Shocksis as she tried to express her thoughts. I cannot really find the words to explain, but reading the "truth darts" thrown at her made me feel very uneasy.