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Author Topic: MLC Monster Limbo & Awakening, Liminality, Withdrawal... Confusions

B
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Okay so I've become aware of some fears I have about Limanality.  My husband is so much the OPPOSITE of who he was that I can't imagine what it will be like once he faces all the things he's done.  It's like he's driving a bulldozer through his life and no one can stop him.  The best you can do is GET OUT OF THE WAY!   I don't spend loads of time worrying about this as I am slowly dimming the switch and detaching from his physical presence as he prepares to leave.  However, it's one of the reasons I believe I fell into enabling, cake eating and doormat behaviors myself.  All of which, I realize now, were present to a certain extent in the relationship prior to MLC.  In MLC they just became very  extreme and in my face.  ANy thoughts or stories about Limanility and a spouse's fears surrounding  this phase?


RCR Edited the title a little to add liminality and withdrawal.

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« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 12:04:24 PM by Rollercoasterider »
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M 33
H 33
Married 9 years
3 children (D8, D3 and S7months)
BD-Spring of 2009 EA
H Filed 09/2010

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Re: Fear of Liminality
#1: June 07, 2010, 08:06:10 AM
Jusat so I understand...
Are you saying you are afraid of Liminality or are afraid that your MLCer will never get there because of his avoidance?

The latter makes the most sense and is common, but since you said you are afraid of Liminality, I want to make sure I understand.
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Re: Fear of Liminality
#2: June 07, 2010, 08:11:18 AM
If it is fear that spouse won't get there because of his fears; that is something that I think about as well.  That he will just continue to mask, run, or whatever.  Trying to detach from that. 
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Re: Fear of Liminality
#3: June 07, 2010, 09:47:12 AM
I guess I have fears about both and I think it's complicated because the stages are so intertwined but I fear suicide, which I'm sure is most likely to happen in Liminality.  He's been talking a lot about getting to a breaking point lately or a crucial point.   This is what I'm hearing.  I know this is a detachment issue for me and I believe his leaving will help me deal with this. It has become painful to look at him.  His face is just tortured and this is hard for me to watch.  Emotional sickness is frustratiing because there is nothing that can be done to help.  The avoidance issues don't scare me as much because I've been dealing with them for awhile and I see a deeper depression emerging although I know there is a chance of replay coming on strong when he leaves.  I'm prepared for issues with OW and I KNOW when that fails he'll hit rock bottom.  It's when he has to face all the foggy replay behavior and what that will look like.  Hope this makes sense.
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Pain is not a punishment, pleasure not a reward.  ~Pema Chodron

A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her.  ~Oscare Wilde

M 33
H 33
Married 9 years
3 children (D8, D3 and S7months)
BD-Spring of 2009 EA
H Filed 09/2010

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End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#4: March 29, 2011, 01:52:30 PM
I have read everything I can get my eyes on about behaviours in Replay.

These are the steps in which my H has taken in the last month, behaviours and actions.

H has come out of the deep fog that kept him from doing much of anything including work.
Fighting almost on a daily basis with OW. Left her 2 times, then sent her back home to NY ( we live in Cali )
Last Thursday ( Mar 24th ), Stating he needed to get away from the drama, That it was affecting his job.
He knew that if she stayed here he would lose his job and lose everything!

But H also continues to have a R with OW. Now turning into a EA rather then a PA.

He has become more clear headed and has been to work everyday since she left. Has less stress
and smiles more and has enjoyed his time with his friends.

When H fights with OW now, He can still find himself in the "fog" but he says it doesn't stay as long
like it did when she was here.

He still questions whether to be with Me and save our marriage...says he is still confused about OW and is torn.
but tells everyone including our D13 that he will never bring her back...

I'm just curious....I know there is no set guidelines and everyone is different, But could he be closer to leaving
the tunnel and coming out of Replay now that OW is gone?

Did he send her away because he is realizing life isn't what he thought it was?

He knew he was literally 2 weeks from becoming homeless if he didn't do SOMETHING...

I just need some clarity in where he might be...I know he is not DEEP in Replay...but getting closer
to leaving....ugh
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H deceased 11/09/2015
D17
Married 16 yrs Together 25 yrs
BD 09/10
living with OW 12/10
OW moved out 03/11
H moved home 06/11
Affair ended 05/12 again and again and again
H Blocked xOW from contacting Him 10/12
Ended ALL contact with xOW Dec 26th 2012 (So I thought!) I filed for D June 10th 2013
Moved out.

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Re: Signs of coming out of Replay
#5: March 29, 2011, 02:24:33 PM
Syn,
Every situation is different - BUT
I'm sure you've read the articles....
REPLAY is the longest stage....
If it's been 1 year since BD, spouse is in Replay
1.5 years - Spouse is in Replay
2 years - Spouse could be in Replay or entering Depression

I believe that my H's R with OW ended soon after he walked out on me and the kids (almost 8 months ago), BD was May 2010.
I believe my H is STILL in Replay. 

I did the same things.  Read and read - hoping to find a hint that he was ending Replay and entering Depression and Withdrawal toward Acceptance.

Honestly, if it makes you feel better to do this - go ahead.  But, it really is a waste of your precious time.
I don't think you will really know the stages until they are over.

Hugs,

L
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Re: Signs of coming out of Replay
#6: March 29, 2011, 02:32:19 PM
LS,

well, I have read that once the OW/OM is out of the picture they leave Replay....So if your H left his OW
at BD...right? That's even more confusing.... :o

I don't like to put a time limit on anything as I believe everyone is different...Just my opinion...so if we take
the "time limits" out....we have to look at behaviours and actions...


So, If my H sent his OW away, but still has a EA with her....seems to me he is trying to End it for good, therefor
come out of Replay...If replay is where they are foggy and depressed...then My H isn't like that as much anymore
compaired to say...Last month when he was sobbing every 5 minutes and couldn't get out of bed.

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Me 45
H deceased 11/09/2015
D17
Married 16 yrs Together 25 yrs
BD 09/10
living with OW 12/10
OW moved out 03/11
H moved home 06/11
Affair ended 05/12 again and again and again
H Blocked xOW from contacting Him 10/12
Ended ALL contact with xOW Dec 26th 2012 (So I thought!) I filed for D June 10th 2013
Moved out.

--
"Never, ever be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way."

"What if you woke up today with only the things you Thanked God for yesterday?"

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Re: Signs of coming out of Replay
#7: March 29, 2011, 02:44:36 PM
Synnica

Depression fluctuates throughout all the stages including replay.

Getting rid of the OW doesn't mean that he is leaving replay. ALL the replay behaviours need to subside and OW totally gone. Only then will he moved into depression/withdrawal stage. Your H sending his OW away may mean nothing. Remember they lie all the time. At the moment you are making assumptions about what is happening. Please don't get pulled back onto the rollercoaster.

Also at the end of replay they often go through an awakening when they start to see the mess they have made.

Have a read of this thread it may help. Also reread the stage of replay.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=26.0

I suggest you continue to detach and let him go. He is still very confused and as Lausecan said it is early days yet.

xx
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Re: Signs of coming out of Replay
#8: March 29, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
Syn

Usually with stages it is very hard to see until you are past the events and looking back.
Sometimes you can have touch and gos that lasts for months.
Normally if their is an OW/OM they are still in replay.
You will see some of the other replay antics, clothes, teenage actions.
Running away is also normally part of replay.

Just to be clear, they are NOT out of the tunnel after replay.
They are very much still in crisis and it can be just as hard on the LBS as it is during replay.

Every crisis IS different and depends how it all plays out.
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Re: Signs of coming out of Replay
#9: March 29, 2011, 03:12:56 PM
Thanks JA and OP,

That helped alot!! :)

Ok, so he is still in the tunnel...got it.

Since my H's OW is still in the picture, I know he is still in Replay.....I think I just find it really odd that he used
his last dime to send her and her son home.....I know they are all wacko crazy!..so doing this is just another
crazy MLC thing...but sheesh, If he was so HAPPY and in LOVE, why send them home to be 3000 miles away??

I think what I'm trying to wrap my brain around is he bought the tickets, stayed with her for a week until they
left, ( acted like a couple ) then put them on a plane, and then continues to be in a R with her....

I dont know...maybe I am hoping that someone would know the MLC thinking...LOL
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H deceased 11/09/2015
D17
Married 16 yrs Together 25 yrs
BD 09/10
living with OW 12/10
OW moved out 03/11
H moved home 06/11
Affair ended 05/12 again and again and again
H Blocked xOW from contacting Him 10/12
Ended ALL contact with xOW Dec 26th 2012 (So I thought!) I filed for D June 10th 2013
Moved out.

--
"Never, ever be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way."

"What if you woke up today with only the things you Thanked God for yesterday?"

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End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#10: December 03, 2011, 03:39:10 PM
My questions which I am struggling to understand and would appreciate your LBS thoughts on....

•   ? Is Liminality and Withdrawal the same?
•   ? In HB post she mentions that the MLCer won’t communicate with anyone but how then how do they do their job?  How do they live ? or  Deal with the people they live with? Etc???

(My H I think is in Liminality/Withdrawal and he at the moment lives with my D 22, and he speaks to her when she speaks to him but otherwise he is very secretive (again – was better months ago) is always trying to be busy and is acting MLC er crazy plus seems to be popping at times back into reply activities but the main replay activities and stuff are nearly over; he gets angry over little non things, acts like a teenager and child at times, treats D like she is his wife one minute then ignores her for days.


From HB
Quote
“‘During this time, they will NOT communicate with ANYONE, not even their spouse, as they are drawn so far within, no one can reach them. They MUST be allowed to continue, with NO interruptions, just like before-they will NOT come out until they are READY to come out.  Just like in Depression, they want to left alone, still processing their issues and the damage they have done to their spouse and their lives, and they make several decisions during this time concerning their lives, job, and marriage. But those WON'T be known UNTIL they break Withdrawal and talk to their spouse the first time”

•   ? So if they are in Withdrawal/Liminality how then do you then lead them along if you are supposed to leave them alone? How do you know when is the right time (My H is an in and out er?)?

From HB
Quote
“They are still secretive, somewhat asserting their privacy, much like a teen-ager, but during this time, they must be gently but firmly led along, and only when the time is right-a wrong word at the wrong time will cause them to "stick" within the tunnel. “

•   ? How do you deal with the anger when it’s directed at your children not you?

My H really is hurting my D with his very MLC behaviour as he I think has replaced her as me because of her living with him because of her first job).

She virtually leaves him alone but then gets angry with him.

•     ?. Do you think this will hold him back (D living with him) or be a help to him in any way – not that I have any control over the situation,  anyway? and how can I help my D deal with his anger and crazy behaviour which I am afraid will destroy his relationship with his D and S?

My H is never angry with me now, (with D and S 24) but seems more frightened/nervous etc of me – has told me that I am not to feel guilty (when I said I did feel guilty over not pushing our friends to invite him to our joint godsons (their sons) confirmation).  He doesn’t want a Divorce as I offered him one (His lovely (NOT) Mother told me he wanted one and I should not stop him
being happy)

From HB:
Quote
“You will see some Depression and Anger within them, they are mostly angry at themselves, but will take it out on you, and there are times you will have to be quiet and just leave them alone; letting them work things out, and they usually will, as the answers, such as they are STILL come from within them, not outside sources. “

•   ? In connection to RCR view on Liminality –what is your views on why  MLC er’s run back into replay behaviour ? Have you seen this? I have but it’s not as manic ? and he is showing a new him? but then he seems scared and runs again - anyone seen this? behaviour??

Quote
From the articles from RCR: Liminality
‘A time of withdrawal into quiet solitude, but for not all people withdraw and there are those who will continue to manifest their depression through escalating anger;’ ‘The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness. It is no wonder they cycle by running back to Replay behaviour. The start and end of stages are transitional places where the MLCer exhibits characteristics familiar to both stages. The cycling gradually diminishes at a rate that is dependent upon the degree of wounding buried in his Shadow. Those with greater wounding have more to avoid.’

My H has said he wants to be a better person and not be the person he is now (this he said 6 months ago!!) since then nothing that I am aware of... he ignored some texts in the summer (me just being nice re kids etc) but then a few weeks ago texted asking ‘how’s u?’ (Think H is about age 14 maybe??When he sent this text?) And what did I think of something he had done at work and was on the web? – interview So...  I listened to it and he made a reference to me?  I said something about it on the text and he owned up to saying it in a roundabout way?


He is reading psychology today (tweets articles from it) which he told me just before bomb drop that is was rubbish (I did psychology at Uni)?


He went to a Shakespeare play after telling me at BD that he hated going (after 25 years of us going)

•   ?  Do you think this is right the OW can still be around my H seems to not have an OW but many OW ‘friends’, which D says are not romantic as she can tell?? But they seem to need a lot of people around them their new friends my H seems to be drawn to women as friends (real mix-lesbians, single older women, work colleagues etc)  does any other LBS have this happening to them?
From HB
Quote
Many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.


Your views & help needed???

Love B x
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 05:12:37 PM by Anjae »
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#11: December 03, 2011, 03:53:40 PM
B my good friend apologies I didnt get in touch again,I went thru a bad time when I lost my dad.

I have found it better not to try and analyse whats been going on with my H. Sometimes I think we over analyse without realising it.I have decided that this whole journey with my H is in gods hands.I am living my life and not concerning myself with what H is/isnt doing, thinking/not thinking.

They are so confused that I find they sometimes just confuse us.My H pops up and down now and again.He rarely goes 6 months and he is either spewing or trying to reconnect with the girls.

Maybe you would be both better cutting him lose and letting him find his own space.Time on his own may allow him to think about his actions.He has both of you worrying about him and I think as long as he knows this he wont have to think about things for hmself.

They play many games with us especially mind games.If he sees you moving on, he will come around I am sure of it.YouR D needs her space too..I would be tempted to give him some timelines to find his own place and he may start to move a little quicker..

As he moves thru the stages and he stops jumping in and out of each stage , it will be clearer where he is...
stay strong I sense you are weary and tired from thinking about this... hugs coming your way :)
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#12: December 03, 2011, 08:26:45 PM
B - I too have wondered about those same questions.

As for running back into replay behaviours.  My H (22mths post BD), is cycling big time towards us, then away again. 
These replay behaviours do seem far less manic, but my take on it is that he gets scared about having to face the feelings that he should have been facing some years ago (and didn't - chose to run instead), every time he comes towards us.
Gets scared about the destruction, the feelings within him, and runs for the freedom and no responsibilities again.
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#13: December 04, 2011, 01:51:34 AM
Sambriony
thanks

To quote you

Quote
Maybe you would be both better cutting him lose and letting him find his own space.Time on his own may allow him to think about his actions.He has both of you worrying about him and I think as long as he knows this he wont have to think about things for hmself.

I do leave him alone except for anything financial - the flat is ours and so can't ask him to go somewhere else and D cant afford her own place yet - saving up to do so her D pays for her food and doesn't charge rent

I worry about my D not him I can assure you and I am leaving it to fate to sort him out as I do know I cant -
,
I  just wanted views on withdrawal and liminality -  as this is where I feel he is in. Of course its hard unless your MLC er is there or been through this I appreciate but how do they behave during this time?


Kikki

Thanks its reassuring to see others behaving similar to your MLC er isn't it?

B

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#14: December 04, 2011, 02:54:01 AM
B,
Everything you have written, I am struggling with too......
All of the behaviours you are seeing, I am seeing too....

I came to the conclusion he will either come to his sense or not.
It hurts so much to wsee that behaviour....the flip flopping about all the time.
Not knowing what you are going to see next.

Keep strong my friend.

HUGS

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#15: December 04, 2011, 03:49:43 AM
Im going to tell you what happened with my h recently. About a month and a half ago things started to change some. He wasn't coming straight out and saying anything to me... it more like giving hints. little things like he was so screwed up in the head... then he would disappear for a while... then something like noticing that i was changing and he liked the changes... really just little statements. I could see that something different was happening... and everytime he would disappear to process for days. That sent me cycling because it was a tidbit of positive movement followed by silence. They really need this time to think. He kept asking me for some more time. eventually they open up some more... and this is the time that you know its ok to help them... i really knew that it was the right time... you will know. He was still just listening to me at this time and taking what i said in without contributing much... it is sooooooo frustrating. The day he left the ho...

he went to his fathers and asked me to meet him there. we have 3 children here and not much privacy. that was when he really expressed how he was feeling... some remorse... wanting a change... Not everything comes out then... but it was clear that he wanted a life with me in it... that he screwed up... that he doesn't know what's happening to his mind. i don't feel he is completely out of the tunnel yet. nothing is clear to him yet... but he knows that what he did was a major mistake and that it hurt everyone. right now its learning how to walk again.

OMR
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BD 3/18/10
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10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
I/5/11 H started to see me several times a week.
11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#16: December 04, 2011, 03:55:55 AM
A similar thing happended to me recently.....
He asked to meet me at my sisters.
I agreed but he only talked about himself and how he was broke.
No remorse or wondering how I was finacially.
I guess mine is well and truely stuck in replay.....

HUGS
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#17: December 04, 2011, 04:04:17 AM
My h had done that back in may... he was putting out the feelers... told me that he was thinking of working on things with me... but he wasn't prepared to move out of ow's. it cause a lot of anger in me and i went very dark for 2 months until he contacted me again... this time it felt very very different... I was still scared and cautious..  but there was something different in him... i felt he was almost ready. back in may... my hopes got the better of me with the first time he said something about wanting to see if things would work out. but i would not date him while living there. He just simply wasn't ready yet... But seeing if he had a way back.

OMR
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BD 3/18/10
Found about OW 3/21/10
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5/31/10 I miscarried our baby
10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
I/5/11 H started to see me several times a week.
11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#18: December 04, 2011, 04:23:51 AM
Had your H started D proceedings OMR?
My H has.....and there is the pregnancy to content with also.
After visit, I did get some spewing as I would not do what he wanted....did you see that too?
Now he has withdrawn again.
I am not holding my breath for a change anytime soon....

HUGS
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 04:27:03 AM by watching and waiting »
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#19: December 04, 2011, 04:43:47 AM
B,

We all get to a point where we wonder "Where in the stages is my MLCers?". I guess it is stage obsession.

Here is RCR's article on Stage Obsession:
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay_stage-obsession.html

This sentence in the article stands out: "If your Replayer seems depressed it does not mean they are finally going to hit rock bottom and be in Liminal Depression."

If there are still replay behaviors, even if they are showing signs of deep depression, they may not have hit rock bottom yet. If you get caught up in the stages, you are focusing more on HIS journey and less on yourself. Detaching and Letting go make self-focus easier and the stage obsession less of our focus. In order for us to heal, we need to focus on us rather than our mixed up loved one.

Currently, my Dear Heart says he is more comfortable with who he is, yet he still has mixed up thoughts and emotions when he is exposed to me (prolonged contact). He says he recongnizes his shadow and sees the "path." He has read about MLC and Midlife transition. He has been going to churches and looking for one that "fits." He says he is frustrated with not being able to get through this. I could take these as signs that he is hitting a liminal state, but how does one really know if we are not exposed to them on a day to day basis? He also talks about mistakes he has made in the past with our sons and blames himself constantly. He thinks that they would be even better men if he had not been so hard on them... He is processing. We have to let them "be" to work it out on their own. They will let us know when they are receptive and closer to peeking out of their foggy tunnel. My Dear Heart talks about what is going on inside of him and what he has read. He has asked my IC if he can see him independently and has started seeing the counselor weekly. He shows many signs of overt depression. Again, this shows his frustration, but he is not quite ready to focus on "love your neighbor as yourself," because he is stuck in the "I" or "ego."

There truly are signs that they are making progress, but those of us who do not live with our MLCers do not always "see" the signs. Progress is good, but it does not mean that they are at the Liminality/Withdrawl stage. They have to do the inner work and be receptive to confronting themself, making necessary changes, and let go of the suffering... that comes when they hit that liminal state.
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#20: December 04, 2011, 05:03:24 AM
We all get to a point where we wonder "Where in the stages is my MLCers?". I guess it is stage obsession.

True but there is also the need as part of our knowledge base of understanding what is liminality/withdrawal and how does it manifest itself.

IMO every journey is different and identifying this part of the process is difficult especially as they can run with deep depression and withdrawal together.  Neither are linear and none of us knows what 'withdrawal' looks like as we see withdrawing throughout the process. I believe that they run with maybe 2 or 3 stages at once as they move around in the process getting what they need to move forward and there are some parts of replay that they keep i.e new hobbies etc.

I think we can easily misread stages as well. But true withdrawal and liminality is very different to depression and withdrawing. But for LBS who have no or hardly any contact it is difficult to see. And until you see true liminality deep depression can certainly muddy the waters.

My question would be about OW and how long she stays around. MLCers hate being on their won so do they keep the door open on the OW/OM as they are moving forward with a different plan i.e potential of reconciling with the LBS? HB says that the OW/OM must be gone before they can enter withdrawal proper. But the more stories I hear are about the MLC er hanging onto the OW/OM right to the end even though the relationship is toxic. Maybe that last step forward is the hardest as their fantasy finally disintergrates.

Back to detaching ladies and gents to watch the performances before we are all insane lol

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#21: December 04, 2011, 05:53:15 AM
In my case my h kept ow around as long as possible until he could make a decision... at that point he felt he was going to lose me when he finally left her. I believe. that he made it so unbearable to live with that she ended it... or she creatd such a fight that he could just walk out... He reconnected  with me while he was with her. He left her and went to his fathers... his dad wasn't there... he asked me to come. He was there for 2 days while we had some privacy to talk and he drove me home and didn't leave... it doesn't usually go very smoothly... but i do think that they live with ow until they make a decision it their head... and set up a situation to leave when the pain there is finally too much.

No my h never filed a divorce. before i found this site. i actually filed and he freaked. he wouldn't answer the court or follow through on anything regarding it. the divorce was ultimately dismissed for good out of the court this past November 9th. I filed after he moved in with OW. But, after he told me in may that he wanted to try with me but still wanted to live with OW... i refused. and i believe OW was trying to tell him that he had a right to have the girls at their place. i stood my ground with it... and the girls didn't want to go. so he blackmailed me. with the influence of OW im
sure... he cut me off of money until he could have the girls sleep over there... I was pissed and i lost it and b*tch mode came out.... told him if he wanted to play dirty... i can play. and i sent him back a text that he had sent to me when we were intimate a few months before... i told him that i was well  prepared and that if i didn't have a place to live... well than neither would he. he backed down and put the money in the account.... so he did do things that im sure ow pushed him to do... and they do it because they don't want either world to end at that point.

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me : 44
H : 38
D20, D11, D7
BD 3/18/10
Found about OW 3/21/10
H moved out 5/13/10
5/16/10 OW found her fiancee hanging over their A
5/31/10 I miscarried our baby
10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
I/5/11 H started to see me several times a week.
11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
D finalized 2/12/13

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#22: December 04, 2011, 07:23:47 AM

Both interesting points made but has anyone seen in their MLCer 0- them doing ?? to change themselves? To be these new people - anyone??

Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently as Liminality says they do - testing it to see if they like this new person ???

Bx
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#23: December 04, 2011, 08:04:06 AM
Quote
...but has anyone seen in their MLCer 0- them doing ?? to change themselves? To be these new people - anyone?? Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently

Here are some things H has done:
Read the Conway book "Men in Midlife Crisis"
Read "Silent Sons"
Read "Crossing the Soul's River: A rite of passage for men"
Read "I don't want to talk about it... Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression"
Read articles about midlife crisis and transition
Joined meet up groups
Attended a meet up having to do with his political affiliation (Was not a social person)
Hung out at pubs/taverns to watch football (Was not a big football watcher)
Started inidvidual counseling (his own suggestion)
Started doing callligraphy
Joined a man site: art of manliness
Started dieting and exercise (self-control about dieting and exercise was one of his issues)
Started looking for books to read just for pleasure (classics... he was not a big reader)
Started talking to me about the frustration of being "stuck"
Went out with his friend, his friend's family, and his friend's girlfriend to a haunted/ghost walk

These are just a few... They do try... hopefully they will get there.
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#24: December 04, 2011, 08:52:29 AM
My h just came home... within a week he had checked himself into a mental hospital... he took a very big first step. A week ago he felt suicidal... today he doesn't feel alone anymore... goes to group meetings... is accepting help and is trying a new healthier path... its just going to take time.

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me : 44
H : 38
D20, D11, D7
BD 3/18/10
Found about OW 3/21/10
H moved out 5/13/10
5/16/10 OW found her fiancee hanging over their A
5/31/10 I miscarried our baby
10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
I/5/11 H started to see me several times a week.
11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
D finalized 2/12/13

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#25: December 04, 2011, 09:00:20 AM
I guess what im trying to say is that its a process of trial and error... they try new things... if they like it... they keep it... its over time that they become a new person... When they come back it isn't complete... its still in the desire, thinking and planning stage. they may have changed a few things... but not fully.... eventually they become a new person.
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me : 44
H : 38
D20, D11, D7
BD 3/18/10
Found about OW 3/21/10
H moved out 5/13/10
5/16/10 OW found her fiancee hanging over their A
5/31/10 I miscarried our baby
10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
I/5/11 H started to see me several times a week.
11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
D finalized 2/12/13

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#26: December 04, 2011, 01:57:18 PM
Has anyone seen in their MLCer—them doing [anything] to change themselves? To be these new people?
Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently as Liminality says they do - testing it to see if they like this new person?

That is Rebirth, not Liminality. Rebirth is when they take the scattered fragments of Shadow and Self from Liminality and put them back together again. It is the process of reintegrating them, but not the completion. They need to test them. So they attempt Reintegration to test and then return to the birthing phase—withdraw—to revise. So what is happening is two reintegrations. The reintegration of Self that is Rebirth and the Reintegration into society.

That doesn’t mean they are not doing things in Liminality, but in Liminality those actions are often part of the discovery and decisions. They are still doing the research to help them sift through the broken pieces of Self and Shadow.

I have written answers to the questions in the initial post and they will come out tomorrow on the Blog. There have been a few goood topc threads recently and so I've got a few different posts in the works. I've pretty much completed this one, so it will probably come out first. But I will postpone this one and post the one about Divorce if I complete that before 8am tomorrow. But I think the divorce one may have a few parts...so this would be postponed for more than a day. We will see what I get done!
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#27: December 04, 2011, 03:17:43 PM
Well I don't know if my sitch is different now or typical of MLC script.
I'm reading many threads but can't find one that follows the same path as yet.

H and OW split nearly 2 weeks ago.  I have no idea if they are back together or still apart.  He went away for the weekend 'on his own' to 'clear his head'.

I received a text last night telling me what he bought the kids for christmas yesterday.

H is still progressing and pushing through property settlement.  He wants the money ASAP.  No signs of wanting me back but last week he did start chatting more.  This week, back to same old detatched behaviour.  He can't file for divorce until April and will need no reason to file.

I don't know how or why the break up happened.  But it did seem quite sudden from my viewpoint which is not very clear.
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« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 03:19:21 PM by Stillpraying »
BD 18th Oct 2009
exH Left home 9th April 2011
Split with OW3 (fiance) Jan 2016. (no break between OWs).

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#28: December 05, 2011, 12:50:59 AM
B, you're going to have to trust the MLC process, AND your Intuition for the moment.    Tell your daughter to distance herself from her dad's behavior; and you need to detach even further yourself.
Don't worry he's fine for the moment.  :)

His anger is truly at himself, but he's lashing out at others, and this is common; as they are very frustrated at times....don't take it personally; and again, your daughter needs to detach and distance herself.

Nothing you can do but watch him continue to spin in the wind.  :)

Quote
From HB
Quote

    Many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.


NO, HB, did NOT write the above
..check below article for the BOLD; RCR wrote this, NOT me.   I don't like being given responsibility/credit for someone else's writings; this is the second time this  SAME statement has shown up attributed to me. 

I corrected it the first time it happened in another thread; and now, I'm correcting it again in hopefully a more thorough fashion.   Say what you will, but I would rather correct a misquoting when I catch it, than to let it go.

And I write corrections, even when I find a quoting that I KNOW is mine attributed to RCR; she uses ME for a source; which is perfectly OK.

Her views and mine don't always coincide; as we are two different people with two different points of view.  That's the beauty of being different. :)

I grabbed the entire article; and brought it here; you might wish to re-read what she talks about in this particular aspect.



Liminality

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html

Liminality is Overt Depression, a time of facing the Shadows repressed during childhood. These may be beautiful traits stamped down by criticism or unacceptance. Or they may be those fears and angers. There is gold within the Shadows, embrace the gold and release what is not gold. But he must face all of it.

The Shadows strip the Ego away. It is a drowning under water and a fiery incineration. The great fear is for nothingness—complete annihilation, or that only those Shadows locked so tightly will be left—those things that were meant to remain hidden.

Indigo is the colour associated with the Third Eye. It is the Psychic Center and represents Inner Knowing, Inner Vision. It is a different way of seeing. It is the door to Madness—a door which is best left open. To fear it is to risk falling in without a guide or preparation.


Transition is Liminal
Depress: (Verb) To press or slow down, to decrease the activity of something.

A doctor uses a tongue depressor to press down the tongue; alcohol is a depressant, slowing down the central nervous system. Liminal Depression is an act of Depressing and to depress is to be in Deep Rest or Hibernation. Perhaps it can be better understood in the context of a transition that is not a crisis. Though Liminality may be frightening even when a transition is not a crisis, its depression is not the prison of hopeless despair that is Clinical Depression. It is a reflection and the person not in crisis, the person who though tentative and possibly frightened but who is not avoiding, sees their reflection wavering as water ripples around them and pauses for consideration. Though Liminality may be a time of unknowing, it is also a process of discovering and can be peacefully exciting. It is what people seek at the top of Everest, in nature hikes, runner's highs, temples and monasteries. It is the peak experience brought down to physicality.

Liminality is also risky. It is that time when you must ask your Self whether to continue a path of safety which no longer contains your life force or to give it all up, sacrifice or risk your job, the respect of your peers, your family…and leap. What must a person give up to climb Everest? Will the gains be worth the losses? Yes, joy is a choice, but that does not mean there are no regrets. Leaping is an act of courage.

Midlife crisis is a loss or absence of courage. That is not to say that a person in a midlife crisis has not been courageous in other aspects of life; soldiers are no less prone to midlife crisis than civilians. But it is an absence of courage in facing one's Self, in accepting feelings and emotions or integrating the past replete with either toxic or healthy shame and guilt. MLCers try to avoid the gift, the blessing offered in the journey.

Liminality is that space between, between time and between physicality; existence may not seem real or solid. Liminal experience may be through the standard five senses, but the other senses, those that we deny and do not understood are often enhanced. It is a different plane of awareness and experience.


Reality Bites…hard
Liminal Depression is a consequence of Replay behaviour. Replay spending results in bills and losses of things that are no longer affordable—not merely Replay luxuries such as the sports car, but also the loss of former possessions and savings (house, car, pension etc.). Financial losses can be significant, but more devastating is the loss of Self and potential, the loss of marriage, health, self-worth due to losses and guilt, and the loss of escape as Replay no longer produces a high. Everything leading up to Liminal Depression was preparation; the real work begins here.

Liminality is the means to reintegrating the Shadow fragments. Liminal Depression serves a purpose. There are times when we need to go down within ourselves for self-contemplation and growth. This may be a time of withdrawal into quiet solitude, but for not all people withdraw and there are those who will continue to manifest their depression through escalating anger; as the depression worsens, his behaviour may become more erratic and volatile.

Society views this depression as negative. This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm’s ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self—Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness. It is no wonder they cycle by running back to Replay behaviour. The start and end of stages are transitional places where the MLCer exhibits characteristics familiar to both stages. The cycling gradually diminishes at a rate that is dependent upon the degree of wounding buried in his Shadow. Those with greater wounding have more to avoid.

Once a person is in Liminal Depression and has fallen to Rock Bottom his returns to Replay behaviour are without his metaphorical skin; he is like a molting crab and highly vulnerable; Liminal Depression is a more comfortable place in this condition. Liminality is the wine dark sea of Chaos, 40 days in the desert, time in the Wasteland. The Depression you will notice during this phase is more intense than any previous depression within the crisis.

Some MLCers have more awareness of their confusion than others. This recognition can create a petrification of fear like a deer in the headlights, in Replay the MLCer may recognize the vehicle, but in Liminal Depression, without Self-identity, he doesn’t know what he is running from. This is the scariest phase for many MLCers. Liminality forces him to face his shadow and he may have realized the devastation he has caused around him and fear there is no return. He may have no desire to return, but even so, the option to return was a security. This lack of Self-identity with the addition of a recognition of the devastation he has caused is understandably the time of the greatest hopelessness and despair.


When is Liminality?
What is a good indication that they are in or are approaching Liminality?
I don't know. There are many, but sometimes it means something else.
As Liminal Depression approaches, an MLCer may exhibit more anger and lash out more as he tries harder and harder to avoid being depressed.
Some, instead, may exhibit signs of more classic-overt depression.

General Indicators of Depression

  • Shame and fear of admitting weakness
  • Impatience, irritability, and restlessness or decreased activity
  • Anger and hostility toward family, friends, and others
  • Substance abuse
  • Changes in sleep patterns
  • Feelings of sadness
  • Loss of interest or pleasure in activities
  • Changes in weight or appetite
  • Feelings of guilt, hopelessness, or worthlessness
  • Inability to concentrate, remember things, or make decisions
  • Constant fatigue or loss of energy
  • Recurrent thoughts of suicide or death

Many of these are common to MLC in general—changes in interests, feelings of guilt, hopelessness, inability to concentrate, substance abuse, sleep changes, anger… This is because Replay is Covert Depression and Liminality is Overt Depression. So look for what changes. Many believe that the break up of the adulterous relationship brings on Liminality, this notion is false. I am not saying that it will not bring on Liminality, but many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.(emphasis, MINE, as HB did NOT write this, this is RCR's article)

MLCers find new friends and new activities. Sometimes these become permanent and beneficial life changes, but many of these changes are temporary and will not survive Replay. Is your MLCer still involved with the same new friends or in his Replay activities, or has he lost interest?

An MLCer may display some of these symptoms to his abandoned spouse and others to the alienator. He may try to hide the fact that he is depressed from his spouse because she may feel that since things are not going well in his new relationship, he will come home soon. Instead, he will show his anger and irritability to her. He may feel the challenge of trying to keep up energetically with an alienator and friends who are much younger and as he tries harder and yet fails to meet his own standards his shame and feelings of worthlessness may surface.

It is important to understand that what you see may not be what others are seeing. You are seeing the act he wants you to see and others are seeing a different act. Few if any are seeing him Be.

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 01:54:03 AM by HeartsBlessing »
Our marriage survived His MLC, with the help of the Lord.
I have learned that true strength is built through the trials we endure.
There is hope as long as you love your MLC spouse, and, are willing to learn the  life's lessons that are set before you as a result of this crisis.

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#29: December 05, 2011, 07:17:39 AM
Quote
From HB
Quote

    Many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.

NO, HB, did NOT write the above
..check below article for the BOLD; RCR wrote this, NOT me.   I don't like being given responsibility/credit for someone else's writings; this is the second time this  SAME statement has shown up attributed to me.

Thanks. I wrote a whole bunch yesterday for my post and I wrote this additional long part that just went not so much off topic but too much off on a tangetrn. And in that portion I said this--I'd been meaning to put it here until it became a more formal post and I forgot this correction was in the middle of the part I am not using--at least not using now.
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#30: December 05, 2011, 03:59:30 PM
RCR & HB

My sincere thanks for your posts really appreciate your views and HB apologise for misquoting you
so sincerely sorry.

Am looking forward to the blogs/more information.

HB

I am very detached I promise !! Just wanted to (because I am getting such an insight from my D re: H behaviours and suddenly colleagues are mentioning to me - not solicited at all from me, but because they think its odd too - an are bemused. They say that H is behaving in this new way - words they are using are he is 'gentle', less egocentric, friendlier, more himself etc).
Have taken advice from you and others and have found ways to get D to have space away from him  - so hope this helps her.

I feel he sees me in her?? as he texts her sometimes to let her know how he feels and what he is doing but it freaks her out as she said I'm not his wife!  Bur she gets he's not himself but the close living arrangements must blur the ability for her ,I feel , to think rationally at times ?

It seems the more I try to keep away from him the more he intrudes, Its weird, D and I made a promise to only discuss him if she needed to unload and we talk most nights and I never mention him then she suddenly spills tons about him out and so I just reassure and speak kindly about him. Its hard as she goes from being upset to angry to annoyed to embarrassed to frustrated etc and I can't do anything .. but be there for her and say it wont be forever (with my fingers, toes and all else crossed!!)

love and thanks and any other insights on how we get through this/these stages greatly received! its too confusing to say the least ... and think I am not the only one that finds this so?

B xx
 
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#31: December 05, 2011, 05:57:48 PM
Quote
My sincere thanks for your posts really appreciate your views and HB apologise for misquoting you
so sincerely sorry.

Don't worry about it, B; as careful as I am about what I post; I do realize that people will often get a few things mixed up; Lord knows there's enough stress on this forum because of what all are going through.

When I catch 'misquotes' I correct them, and make sure my corrections are in bold.  :)

Quote
I feel he sees me in her?? as he texts her sometimes to let her know how he feels and what he is doing but it freaks her out as she said I'm not his wife!  Bur she gets he's not himself but the close living arrangements must blur the ability for her ,I feel , to think rationally at times ?

It's really hard to live with an out of control MLC'er; that's for sure.

Unless he calls her by YOUR name; I wouldn't think he was mixing you with her.   I watched my husband and son have an interesting relationship that I was NOT a part of.   I do recall them arguing sometimes, and I ALSO recall my husband telling my son things he really should have been telling me, but instead, he was telling son.

It all has to do with feeling SAFE with the person they are talking to.  Your husband has no real "vested" interest in your daughter, other than she's his daughter; she CAN'T throw him out, she CAN'T do a whole lot with him; and so he feels "free" in expressing himself to her.   This aspect is also the process of learning to  developing relationships/friendships/reconnective aspects; can and does involve being more "real" with them.

It's actually a good thing that he's opening up to your daughter; I think JustAsking was/is observing something similar in her situation; when her husband is speaking of the past, and I THINK, how he feels(Correct me, JA, if I'm wrong, here) more is/was being said to the children than to her at this point, but JustAsking just lets it be; staying very detached, knowing HER TURN will come later on...her husband and yours are not that far apart.

Your daughter is having trouble understanding WHY your husband has all of a sudden chosen to confide in her.  But then, sometimes, it's just enough to simply BE; and let it all slide off her back.  I can imagine her being very uncomfortable.

On a side note, however, I just had an odd thought: keep the communication lines open with your daughter; and make sure she lets you know if ANYTHING happens that doesn't seem to be right between her and her dad.  I would NOT even begin to accuse any MLC'er of having anything other than a "friend" type interest in their teenage offspring; but very strange things can happen; and it's best to be on guard at all times.

Twice in my lifetime, when my dad was going through MLC; he chose to confide in me; but my dad took this confidence way too far; and both times, I was forced to shut it all down in one aspect, but still struggle to keep my relationship intact with him.

Yet, I did not trust him, and what I'm about to post, I don't speak of often, B; but my dad said something to me when I was 15, and he was within his first bout of crisis; it was a clear invitation to have sex; and I was shocked to say the least; refused him angrily, and immediately, made certain I was NEVER alone with him.  I was thankful that my sister and I shared a room together at that time; as I was afraid of what he might try to do to me at that time.   I tried to tell my mother, she got all upset, and then I told one of my aunts, who got VERY angry, but she BELIEVED me.
Yet, when he was confronted, he called me a liar; this was one of the traumatic issues I faced while in Transition.

I already lived in terror of my mother, whose mind wasn't right; then I had to watch my dad's every move, too...it's a wonder, I didn't go totally nuts.

Fast forward 10 years later, I was 25; my husband was trucking 5 days a week; and my mother got sick; and was hospitalized for quite awhile...she nearly died.

I can see I made a huge mistake of opening my home to him; instead of letting someone else put him up; but then, my sister had said something about him "peeping" at her through the bedroom window through the curtains...so, both of us were objects of illicit interest......this is NEVER right, and NOTHING can justify a parent that goes this route in their minds and hearts.

My dad was going through MLC AGAIN; having missed some aspects; and one of the first red flags I caught, was hearing him calling me by my mother's name first, and I corrected him right then(I resemble my mother strongly; although I resemble my dad, too).

THEN, not long after, I heard him begin to call me the pet names he called her....it didn't take me long to figure out he was, indeed, mixing us both up; and I had a bad flashback to the time of my 15th year; and what he had asked me for back at that time.

On top of that, my younger brother and I began to hear some very explicit sexual content from him about his younger days that I did NOT wish to know about; I asked him to stop talking about it; was accused of being "thin skinned", that I was grown, and this kind of subject should not be that uncomfortable.  Furious, I lit up like a Christmas tree; so mad at him I could not see straight.

But he didn't stop talking, and I left the room.

When I thought about it all a little later, I was SO scared, I started putting a kitchen chair under the doorknob at night so I could get some decent sleep; not knowing what he might get in his head to do...next, I broke down and told my husband who had a fit; and advised me to send him home to his house.

I asked my husband to be present when I confronted him.

I confronted him a couple of days later; with my husband there; and at first he refused to go home; then he said something I will never forget; I told him that I knew when he was young he took care of himself....he said that he married my mother so SHE could take care of him....that flew all over me; coupled with the memories of having to literally MAKE him get in the car to go see Mother, because he would NOT go on his own(he didn't care if she lived or died, as long as HE was taken care of, typical MLC selfishness)....and then, my terror hit the surface, and in fear AND anger, I left the room, packed his stuff; and put him OUT of the house.

You know, he acted like I had half killed him; and he disowned me because of it; but he never told the truth of what he said/did both of those times....the next time I saw him, he was dead; but that's beside the point.

I said all that as a cautionary measure; I would hope, even though the MLC spouse may do a whole host of other things; that they would NEVER stoop as low as what my dad tried to do with me.

I hadn't thought about this in a LONG time; but something you said about your husband mixing you and her up triggered this particular memory in me...and I'm really very sorry if what I've said scares/frightens you....I don't think this is happening with your husband...yet, this has been known to be a reality for some children; I had read various stories over time; and knew the person was going through MLC.

Just keep close tabs on the situation, I know you already do, B.

Also, remember the spouse is the LAST in line for reconnection; it seems everybody else gets a piece of the action; but since the LBS was the FIRST to be disconnected; they are always the LAST to get reconnected.   Mostly, it's because the LBS is the "ONE" who has always been there; and the one the MLC'er seems to love the most; and it seems the LBS is the one, initially, that gets hurt the most.

Quote
ove and thanks and any other insights on how we get through this/these stages greatly received! its too confusing to say the least ... and think I am not the only one that finds this so?

While I understand you wish for more understanding and clarification; remember the stages were written as a GUIDE, NOT an absolute.

Even RCR's articles are the same; I have read them in this same vein; each one provides guidance; but there are NO absolute solutions for the crisis; as each case is so very different.....all of the reading DOES help increase understanding; but B, I can tell you from experience, there were many things I was unable to see UNTIL my hindsight kicked in more fully AFTER each phase he traveled through.

It's not uncommon to try new things; be different people, then end up a completely different individual when it's all said and done; he seems to be trying out a few aspects on for size; and this is evident of some experimentation that can come at ANY time of the crisis....until he gets himself straightened out,  just keep reading, work on yourself, keep tabs on your daughter; and understand she must handle herself with dear old dad...now if he hurts her physically, that is a way different story; but she can learn to handle her dad emotionally; and you're helping her with that.

Even I observed our son learning the SAME lessons I was learning during my husband's crisis; and he uses these lessons in his own life.
I didn't make him learn them; he learned them on his own by watching the example I actually did NOT know I was setting for him.


Hopefully, this will help...I will give more thought on your other questions, B. :)
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#32: December 06, 2011, 05:30:31 AM
HB

I think JustAsking was/is observing something similar in her situation; when her husband is speaking of the past, and I THINK, how he feels(Correct me, JA, if I'm wrong, here) more is/was being said to the children than to her at this point, but JustAsking just lets it be; staying very detached, knowing HER TURN will come later on...her husband and yours are not that far apart.

This is what I continue to see and infact I see H becoming more intent on making a positive impact on the children's life as he used too. What has changed is that the children are moving forward and he feels the draught between them and the need to run as he is falling behind.

I am also getting more memories and some are quite personal to me as his wife i.e a head injury where he remember who it involved and what side of my forehead that was hurt.

Like B my H has chosen one of our children to give a lot of emotional insight to. Although this drives her mad she tolerates it at the moment as she can see her 'old dad' emerging. This emerging new dad doesn't drive her mad with his needs and needy emotional behaviour like the alien father from deeper in the tunnel.

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#33: December 06, 2011, 05:40:45 AM
 :HB

thanks again insightful stuff .. re your words - and I'm really very sorry if what I've said scares/frightens you....I don't think this is happening with your husband.
No not worried by your take on my worry its not sexual at all - more he sees her as a confident and best friend, he is more pathetic and lost soul and this is what worries me, as my D wants a strong and
supportive  father that she can feel respect for and not one she needs to babysit!

I speak to and know JA well and she I am sure she would agree with me regarding my H actions and behaviours and she too has had similar behaviours, as you say, so think I agree we can see  parallels in their behaviours.

His anger tot he kids is odd as he is not like this when we speak/interact with me ... I am assuming its because they are in his face?

Son hardly has much to  do with him and D now is keeping her distance, (BUT will take your advice on keeping the communication open - if I can) - such a mess and I can't do anything about it so sad for him and I am sure for us all it affects the kids so much so therefore us!

he does have some new friends ... as D says he is nicer to them them he is to the kids ?

So thanks for the advice and insights ... I agree its about looking back to see what has happened and I get the its  only a guide but confusing to know what is the best way to support, detach, leave alone and guide all at once. I spent so much time leaving him alone and now I feel via my D he is crying out for help as does she and my Son but ? guess follow my intuition  hey?
Love as Always xx B

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#34: December 06, 2011, 05:52:04 AM


HB and RCR

Quote
We all get to a point where we wonder "Where in the stages is my MLCers?". I guess it is stage obsession.

True but there is also the need as part of our knowledge base of understanding what is liminality/withdrawal and how does it manifest itself.

have to agree with JA? This is why this stage/s is/are so scary ! Replay is so much more easy to make sense of but maybe that is because its so much about them and the me me me process of finding ?? whatever But these stages of withdrawal with liminality and rebirth /reintegration are so
difficult - I don't see my H as JA does on a regular basis but get feedback by kids and others that pieces his behaviour together - and paints the picture I have posted.

I saw him a month ago he didn't see me .. HB it was like looking at a man who had just woken up and realised that the rest of the world was dead and he was the last man on earth - he looked shell shocked, grey and lost. I was sat down on a bench and he walked past me onto a train - was what sparked my thinking about where he is as seeing him like this was very uncomfortable. I stated at him and would have spoken if he'd noticed me he didn't notice me or anything it seemed - just going through he paces.

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#35: December 06, 2011, 09:19:34 AM
More and more people are arriving at this stage, now that the site has been around for a couple of years.  The replay part isn't any easier, it is just that we get a fair bit of practice at dealing with it.  These things as we all now know, take a considerable amount of time and the average MLCer seems to go in and out of REPLAY many times before they finally begin to exit.

Most of the exiting MLCers seem to reach out to their old friends (that they stopped seeing during crisis), family, and children.  Although anything is possible and a warning is always advisable, plus appreciated, for the most part, our spouses molesting or attempting to molest our children, is not all that common.

When I went to New Zealand, with no phone contact, no fixed address and limited computer access, my h transferred his daily calls to our oldest daughter.  At first he tried to persuade her that OW was a super nice person.  My daughter made it clear to him, that he could never convince her of that, simply because NICE people do not move in with married people.  End of story.  Then he sent her some pictures to try and show her how nice, normal and beautiful she was.  To which my daughter sent him pictures of me, from childhood, of our WEDDING day, pictures of one more new baby each year... you get the picture... hehehe.

He desperately wanted daughter to condone what he was doing, but he wanted more then that, he wanted her to be PLEASED for him.  He simply could not understand why they could not see that he DESERVED to be happy.  My daughter was very patient, she spent hours telling him about all the thinks I had done for him and that in her opinion, the one who DESERVED to be happy, was MOTHER!  She actually told him that she felt I was the one who should have had a mid life crisis, as all I had ever done was cater to him, promote his career, support his ambitions and desires.  She was pretty outspoken about what she thought of his SELFISHNESS. 

He kept calling her back.  Funny, she got away with things that I probably would not have.

It's normal Bewildered.  Your daughter probably is handling him just fine.  Sure she is frustrated, my d thought she would lose her mind.  As she was famous for saying... HE IS CRAZY MOM... he is so far out there, I just don't know how he can ever find his way back. 

I expect one of these days Bewildered you will pick up the phone and call him.  I know you would prefer it if he called you, who wouldn't.  I know it was me, that ended up calling my h.  At least from New Zealand it was.  It seems to be the LBS that ends up having to made the first advances.  I guess it is because they are so convinced that they have SCREWED UP SO BADLY, how could anybody, least of all us, be able to forgive them.

Interesting stage.  Definitely different then REPLAY... but because we do not get as many "kicks at the can", seems much more intimidating.  There is also a feeling that you have to get it right the first time.  Somehow, I don't think that is true... sure wasn't in my case, as just like the rest of this crisis, I managed to do everything wrong.  Play it by ear.  Be true to yourself.  It will work out as it is suppose to. 

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#36: December 06, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
I have to say the my h tried to confide... or looked for approval in our oldest daughter as well. She told him that she would never accept the OW... he tried to convince her that she was a lot like her and that infuriated our D. He finally dropped trying to persuade her... He also used to convince her that I was this evil person that emotionally abused them... Trying to turn her against me... That had some effect but eventually failed. And then in depression... he confided in her as well as me. He actually showed her his suicide letter...

I am seeing that this is something that a lot of them do... unfortunately.

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H : 38
D20, D11, D7
BD 3/18/10
Found about OW 3/21/10
H moved out 5/13/10
5/16/10 OW found her fiancee hanging over their A
5/31/10 I miscarried our baby
10/1/10 H moved in with OW
10/13/10 I filed for D
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11/21/11 H moved home
in and out of mental institutes
2 /17/12 I filed a restraing order
3/8/12 H filed a D
D finalized 2/12/13

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#37: December 06, 2011, 01:25:32 PM
Stayed

Thank you for your input .. appreciated.

I spoke to my D tonight I never initiate conversation  regarding her Father - and tonight she didnt - I take this as a good sign as she was very upbeat etc He is most likely now back to being quiet or nice again - who knows hey?

to quote you ,,,, in connection with your eldest D ...
Quote
Your daughter probably is handling him just fine.  Sure she is frustrated, my d thought she would lose her mind.  As she was famous for saying... HE IS CRAZY MOM... he is so far out there, I just don't know how he can ever find his way back.


Thanks for your view on how my D is dealing with this part of her Father's MLC and all I can say is - and all I can say I hope so she is an amazing girl and stronger than i am .. yet I now remember how I was when my Father died and I was 2 years younger than she is now... and I copied so hopefully she will too and all our children who we love so much.

Your Daughter said what mine is now saying - just substitute crazy for loopy and its word for word.
 ;D
Quote
I expect one of these days Bewildered you will pick up the phone and call him.  I know you would prefer it if he called you, who wouldn't.  I know it was me, that ended up calling my h.  At least from New Zealand it was.  It seems to be the LBS that ends up having to made the first advances.  I guess it is because they are so convinced that they have SCREWED UP SO BADLY, how could anybody, least of all us, be able to forgive them.
and in reference to your words - above  hmmm he is saying things to D that are pointing this maybe the only way forward and my intuition says so too just still thinking it through (I am so detached reattachment is hard) ,

Need some spiritual advice I think .. any out there??  ;D I am finding this stage so hard

OMR

Thanks for your insight too ... my H was like this at the beginning but this now is much different hard to describe but very different ...

B xx
 
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#38: December 06, 2011, 01:35:28 PM
Bewildered request:
Quote
Need some spiritual advice I think .. any out there??  I am finding this stage so hard

Not my speciality, sorry!  :D

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#39: December 06, 2011, 03:34:47 PM
Stayed

if you cant help me will have to reply on JFK as he said:

Quote

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly. "
+
“Awareness is our true self; it's what we are. So we don't have to try to develop awareness; we simply need to notice how we block awareness with our thoughts, our fantasies, our opinions, and our judgments. We're either in awareness, which is our natural state, or we're doing something else.”



B xx
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#40: December 07, 2011, 01:34:45 AM
B, did h just post this on twitter or something?   :o

I think i'd be posting... where are YOU then?

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#41: December 07, 2011, 03:01:33 AM

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Unfair .... like H would !!
I would be so impressed if H did post on twitter something that may show he is getting a sense of perspective hey??

B xx
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#42: December 07, 2011, 03:14:28 AM
I need to have a more proper read through of all this, but I'm chiming in right now just to say that I haven't seen anything even remotely resembling what I thought Liminality to be in my H.  Now I don't know if that's because it's something we don't see, or if he's just not letting himself go there, which is what I think is more likely. 

My H seems to have gone back to the beginning in many ways, perhaps having looked into what is described as the chasm and just said "no way". 

But again, I don't know.  I know I speculated that perhaps he has come through and this is the decision he's made, but there is too much against that.....  it's another cycle, slightly different from the others but with enough, more than enough, there to show that.  Perhaps he's trying out different ways of avoiding that chasm, but that's all I can think of. 

It's been more interesting to look at my own reactions and responses; so many are so automatic that I can't always see that I'm doing "more of the same"...  often I can, just not always.  And it's hard to stop... 

But, as we know, awareness is the first step. 

More later....

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#43: December 07, 2011, 07:06:30 AM
OK, have had a more thorough read, but might need to do so again.

First of all I'll say that I DO think this subject is very confusing, so it's worth thrashing it about to see if we can get to a bit more clarity.

B, I don't think withdrawal and Liminality are necessarily the same, but I guess one does withdraw during liminality, although they may do so at other times as well.

I think the bit that describes liminality to me is if the person is sitting there pretty much actively thinking (although probably not talking about it one bit) "oh, sh**, I might really do this, I might really do this...."  The bit in the RCR article where it talks about taking the risk of alienating peers, giving something up, all that.

I remember back in my early-year crisis having a period like that; it dawned slowly, the main bit was only a few weeks, if I remember correctly (and I may not....), but it was when the reality of my life hit me full on, and the even bigger reality that I could change it, and the even bigger yet one that I might really do it.  For me that meant leaving my "crisis" situation and returning to what was really my life. 

I've often thought about that, and wondered if it also applied to their thought process before BD -- the 'OMG, I can just leave' moment.  Don't know. 

So in a way the liminality is the anxiety period before action is taken.  And one can either get scared of all the damage that has been caused and not take action (which is how I interpret things like my H's just getting another job/activity/toy/OW), or "wake up" and go ahead and try to make amends.... 

So, as Kikki says, "Gets scared about the destruction, the feelings within him, and runs for the freedom and no responsibilities again." 

In my case I think my H has occasionally reflected on the damage, but has in no way been ready to face it, so he just looks for another external answer/fantasy life/your description here. 

To answer another one of your direct questions:

Quote
 ?  Do you think this is right the OW can still be around my H seems to not have an OW but many OW ‘friends’, which D says are not romantic as she can tell?? But they seem to need a lot of people around them their new friends my H seems to be drawn to women as friends (real mix-lesbians, single older women, work colleagues etc)  does any other LBS have this happening to them?

yes, definitely, to the above.  Lots of people in general, lots of women "friends" -- others have noticed that he has loads of all sorts of women as FB friends; possibly some that he has only met a few times.   And in conversations he has frequently referred to female friends, also talks about just going out with 'mates', and so on. 

Need to run now, those are my thoughts at the moment.  I'm not sure if your H is at that liminal stage; withdrawn, yes, but I think that may be more the depression type of withdrawal, the more I think about it. 
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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#44: December 07, 2011, 07:42:12 AM
I only have just a few comments for the moment and this is food for thought....


It it perfectly OK to just BE for awhile; and to BE OK....B, you really are getting to a point of obsession..this is not healthy.

I wrote and I will say it again; the MLC'er can begin reconnecting with friends; family, children...all the while, the LBS is the LAST IN LINE to get this kind of attention.

Right now, you need to again, focus on YOU...analyzing where he might be will NOT bring him through any faster; nor will it "short cut" the process.

I have often seen the same questions over and over again; and the same answers being given.  PLEASE slow down, and leave your MLC spouse twisting in the wind; no one is ever going to know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING...time gets wasted when you get that deeply focused on a process that will run its course regardless of what you do/don't do. :)

Love to you,
HB

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Re: Liminality/Withdrawal: support please, i am confused?
#45: December 07, 2011, 09:41:45 AM
Adding the link to the blog RCR wrote on Liminality a couple of days ago.

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/?paged=2
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Limbo & Awakening
#46: April 13, 2012, 12:02:44 PM
I just posted a new post at the blog.
This is an article that I thought was alread published at the main site or blog, but I couldn't find it when I searched. I'd love it if you guys could help me out with by discussing any thoughts you may have here.
Limbo: The Threshold Between Stages
RCR,
I know you are chasing one word, but this is a topic I have been thinking a lot about, and is from the perspective of a High Energy MLcer.. I think the second part of Replay is one of the most confusing areas, as elements of all the stages come through in this stage. For me, Hard Replay is easy to define, its the classic running and avoidance. The second half of Replay is a gradual transition. It starts with the pity party as the Tsunami of replay activities start to catch up, and energy levels start to burn out. We hear "why do I get all the bad luck" at the start of this period. The Replay activities still continue but the buzz has worn off. The MLCer, I believe, usually has a back up plan to pull their life together after blowing off steam, and perhaps they try this towards the end of Hard Replay. But they start to loose control of the ability to do so, and depression seems to hit pretty hard to parallel to this.
Signs of movement through the second stage of replay perhaps start with genuine attempts to take care of practical matters, such as finances. Admitting they are the cause of that mess shows further steps. This seems to eventually open the door to the thoughts that perhaps they actually contributed to the emotional situation too. The further along the second part of Replay they get, the more clarity comes. But to move to the next stage they need to generate enough energy to do so. Increasing depression and withdrawal, and dips into liminality occur. It is a very grey zone, that seems to often need external events to propell through to the steps. The puzzle pieces start to be seen, but they are not yet in a place to put the puzzle together and move forward, that is the next stage? There can be a lot of clarity while stile in the second part of Replay too. Much movement looks promising, but keeps going nowhere. It is only in hindsight that we know this stage has been moved through.
The first part of replay is High Energy, but the second part for a high energy MLCer can still be High Energy too, just not as high.
To sum it up in one word? Ugggggg! OK, a better word or phrase? Running out of steam? You are not in Kansas any more Toto? What happened to my green grass on the other side? Lower Energy Confusion?
Something to suggest it is complex and it seems common to see quite a bit of the next phases mixed in too.

After reading this post from Storm Rider in greater depth in order to add details into my manuscript revisions, I realized that what I might becalling Limbo--and Awakening in particular--might be what she is referring to when she talks about the 2nd half of Replay and the decline in energy.
As of now I've classified it as a between the stages place, but I think it may be better as she sees it. The seeds of each stage are present in the previous and the continue into the next--usually the stages have a gradual transition rather than a clear boundary--that would be Limbo where in the first par tof it they are still in Escape & Avoid and in the next part of Limbo they are in early Liminality.
But I think I should move the awakening description to my Separation chapter--the Escape & Avoid section following the two type--high and low energy. I might keep it with the intro about Limbo--revising it so it's not really a separate stage, but the bridge that is in both Escape & Avoid and Liminality. That would be good for the manuscript--the Limbo chapter is short and I could do away with it as a separate chapter.
 
So what are your thoughts?
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#47: April 13, 2012, 01:51:39 PM
I kind of think of that part as "recall" instead of "replay", I guess, in my situation.  That's where my H really seems to be, from your description on the blog and here, because he's definitely still in replay, but he's literally starting to "recall" other elements of our old life and re-evaluate where he wants to go.  I certainly hope it's just a "portal" to the next phase (another possible word for it), where it opens the door to that unfortunate depression that's no doubt to come. 
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#48: April 13, 2012, 01:52:20 PM
   Professor RCR, I like what you are doing. It is comprehensible and I really like what Storm Rider threw out there very much.  It does seem interesting though that some spouses, like mine, run hard and fast and then burn out and start with the whole 'grass isn't greener what happened?' and some are like my friend Wed2Him's H who has just been fantasizing about moving back home to the good ole days. Takes a vacation back home alone.  Mostly sitting around complaining and unfriending her on FB. Low energy throughout for him, No? Will he eventually kick in to High energy at some point?
  I get confused by the MLCers like hers bc it almost seems except for the ILYBINILWY speech he's pretty slug-like snails pace...(No offense Wed I love your crazy H) ;)  A quandary ??? 
  Anyway, this is a good discussion. My h is still over at ows 14 mos since BD. Says he loves Mommy. Says he couldn't stop the downward spiral of sadness. But still took his furniture and his ow and they are playing house. (he looks like cr*p. pale, disheveled, messy hair, unshaven)  Like a Beatnick... :P
   I will be thinking of terms to describe what you speak of,  RCR. I like making words.  ;)
  Again Storm Rider excellent recap. ;D
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« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 01:54:19 PM by Mamma Bear »

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#49: April 13, 2012, 03:35:03 PM
I agree with Storm.


With DH the first replay activities, were going out lots and carrying on, total blame on me.
BUt as time has gone on it isn’t quite the same.  He sees that damage could be done to the girls and that it wasn’t all my fault, added with the qualifying statement of that he didn’t want to try though.  ::)


He is still in replay.  And right now he is monster so like BD in many ways.  The girls WILL like ow, the girls HAVE to put up with her in his life.  I am with her forever.


Right, anyhow.


But I see the depression, he is uncomfortable in his house (trying to make a statement perhaps?) and the ramping up the activities is indicative to me he is sliding.  As is monster, it gives a boost to keep him from sliding further.  Can’t last and I see the scrabbling.  Another thing I have seen is the flicking of personality again.  Has happened a few times.  In the beginning it was like a light switch, on, off, on, off.  And then it slowed.  But now it seems to be happening again.  I’m not reading anything into it as he bounced last year, but this year, this year there is a lot different and he may pretend he is fine but he’s not really.


There is a lot of movement I agree  It is all about movement but you don’t always see it and yes DH was stuck.  He was quite comfortable with what was going on, well maybe familiar is more the term, he knew what was happening and even if not truly happy why upset the applecart.  I think at this stage 2 years for me that I was strong enough to upset the applecart and wear the consequences.  i was ready for him to flee to ow and I knew I would be all right.  As the LBS heals the applecart gets upset naturally.  NOt on purpose but we just look at the MLCer and think MEH.  Love you but I can do this.  Love you but if you don’t want me MEH.


It takes a while to get there for us.  We can fake it but until we truly feel it, it ISN’T real and when things are fake we can spot them a mile away.  That is why you can’t manipulate by pretending.


My MLCer is high energy.  And right now it shows.  Parties, trips away, fun things with the young D’s but it’s not the same.  It won’t give the same high.  And the fact up to 3 of his girls are missing at any one time well as much as he says they had a wonderful time, it was fabulous, so much fun, it really does sound like he protests too much.  He is losing what he really wants in life and he just isn’t sure what to do as he knows he has mucked things up in a big way and he convinced himself his new life would fix it all.  Still much easier to blame me.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#50: April 14, 2012, 01:05:40 AM
Perhaps I can comment as I am a long way into this.  In my sitch I clearly saw the first, "hard" replay last 2.5 years -- at that point  he had some sort of awakening, at least to the fact that he had hurt me; he was aware that he had been doing all sorts of things (crazy, sometimes illegal, definitely immoral)  because he was afraid of aging, afraid of not having time to do them all, and so on. 

Was aware that he had made some bad decisions professionally as well, although not yet at the point of being able to change that -- that came a bit later.   Although when he did change it, it was still in a direction that was at odds with what he professed to think about himself. 

Don't know if he at that point came to a more clear decision that he didn't want to return to the marriage; in hindsight it seems so.  However, he ran back into escape-and-avoid then, but then that all crashed at the 3.5 year mark.   He again then seemed to have a small awakening to some things then, asked to talk to me about them, but all that came out was that yet again he felt guilty.  Guilt has been the constant theme, along with his saying that he has come to terms with it. 

Since then he has seemed to move back to the beginning; I guess only in hindsight will we ever know if this is back into escape-and-avoid or a firm decision; his demeanor seems to indicate avoid, avoid, avoid.  But he also now seems more determined to divorce, saying that this latest OW is now the one.  So much of his behaviour is the way it was at the beginning; I've seen this in cycles as well, only this latest cycle (latest OW, probably) is taking longer than the previous ones. 

The children miss him desperately; they are disappointed in so much; he spends less and less time with us/them, and even when he's planned "dedicated" time with one or all, it often turns out that he's invited someone else along as well, which he only tells them about at the last minute.  Also, from what I can tell conversation is very superficial. 

Me he avoids as much as possible.

I guess another consistency is that he says that he doesn't want to do anything that might give the children (i.e. me) any hope that he might come back.  So the separateness is very, very important to him.   I think that also indicates a degree of insecurity, because although he has said repeatedly that he will talk to the children, he hasn't done so.  Again, avoid. 

He has, like some others have mentioned, stepped up what I'd call replay activities; frequent trips abroad, constant, as far as I can tell, going out in town.  Always in a hurry to be somewhere else.   Lots of chatting, never actually talking -- not that I would get to do that anyway any more (during previous cycles and in between cycles he would come to me), but one person who is still in touch with him tells me that he shuts down any conversation if it is in danger of getting anywhere near personal. 

And yes, "replay clothes" also in evidence much more.  Even D has commented on it; she also noticed one day when he was wearing older things, and told him how much she liked that better.... 

Professionally seems determined to make this latest venture work; that in and of itself isn't a bad thing.  A big difference between what he's doing now and what he always did is that quality and prestige to a degree were always important to him; what he's doing now is about as downmarket as it could be, so very, very different in that regard. 

Finances, from what little I can tell, are a mess; he does pride himself on sending us the money each month, though, saying that by doing that he isn't letting us down. 

The feeling I sometimes get is that he's now at a point where he thinks "whew -- almost fell into the river, but found another stepping stone".  He has felt along the way that he's messed up a lot; he's still looking for outside things to fix everything. 

And finally, he is back to blaming me -- strongly.  There was a time in the middle where he didn't so so as much, but now that's back in full force.  Both saying that he doesn't see anything in me that he wants, and overtly saying that I am at fault for whatever is wrong right now. 

So where does that fit the "pattern"? 

The reservation I have about the awakening thing is that it makes it all seem like it should follow an orderly pattern -- deep replay, awakening, limbo, liminality, integration, crisis over. 

I'm not seeing that, although i do recognise that we only see it fully in the rear view mirror. 
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« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 01:31:07 AM by Trustandlove »

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#51: April 14, 2012, 03:06:23 AM
I think that this period is where the type of MLCer dictates how they will react at his stage, in particular, if they have been a high energy MLCer or a low energy MLCer. I think this period is also influenced mainly by the amount of damage done in during Hard Replay.

From looking at sitches at this stage, it seems to me there are three main personalities. First is the Low Energy MLCer. This person jumped on the laid back steam train during Hard Replay. They escaped and avoided, but at the end of Hard Replay, where they land, they have burned off the MLC energy, but still have pretty much control of their life. They may have collected debts, but they can be serviced, they still have their homes and their job, or a job on a comparable level. As they do not have the Tsunami of Replay to deal with, Hard Replay fizzles out, and they seem more likely to land in the classic Limbo, no external demands that require them to keep taking steps forward in the tunnel. Trusting's H springs to mind here, as does Mermaids. Perhaps they are more likely to live at home, and never moved out.

The second is the Moderate energy MLCer. They have done more damage during Hard Replay, and from a practical sense their options are may be very curtailed, but they still have options. They may have eventually moved out, maybe in with OW. Trust and Love, I see your H as one of these.

The third is the classic High Energy MLCer. These people jumped on the Rocket in a bullet proof vest, and went very very hard. The end of Hard Replay was probably due to money running out, not because they ran out of energy. Practical matters demanded that they change at this stage. They have spend well beyond their means, with no thought for tomorrow, and when they stop Hard Replay, there is a good chance they have lost their source of income, and perhaps their house and Replay toys.

At the end of Hard Replay, the path the MLCer takes depends on the above.

Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

Medium Energy MLCers perhaps have the luxury of cycling back into Replay for longer. They still can scrap together the funds, and therefore can still Escape and Avoid for as long as they like. Again, they are not forced to look at themselves at the end of Hard Replay. They can potentially move to a higher energy Limbo.

The High Energy MLCers, well at the end of Hard Replay, the money has run out. And as the bills hit them, it is their name only that is on them. To begin with, it is why me, but the black and white evidence of practical matters suggests eventually to them that they are the common denominator. I think this may start High Energy MLCers on the road to Liminality earlier than the lower energy types. That sounds good, but the High Energy MLCer has a huge amount of practical mess to sort our before they can reach real Liminality. Those with babies perhaps fall into this category too.

I like the phase Early Lininality, it explains a lot. The definition I get of Liminality is that it is a time of realistic processing of issues. Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. The practical matters are processed first. Perhaps Low Energy MLCers can skip the practical processing, which is why they may go to Limbo, emotional matters are much harder to process. The processing of practical matters forces the High Energy MLCer to look at their world through different lens, and leads to the door of emotional processing too. But it must be done in tandem with the processing of piratical problems, so it remains intermittent. Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.

The awakening while described as a stage is really the awakening of reality on many different issues. I see this as being intermittent also. The fog may roll back for short periods of time, and various issues may surface. For an awakening on an issue, we need to hear it consistently for say 3 months. They may then move onto the next issue to awaken on. The easy issue are the first awakening, moving onto the harder issues of their relationship with us and also OW. When they have had an awakening on all the major issues, consistently, they then need the energy to act on them. When this energy builds up enough, that becomes the awakening of OW that HB speaks about. There is a need to act on that, and how their life has become, to move forward. But the ability to do so is still a work in progress.

Perhaps true Liminality is where the decision to change their life is made. A change in direction of their situation, and who they are. And after making so many bad choices, they are confident enough to stand behind their choices here. To me, this is where the Withdrawal and Depression stages kick in. They need to think about the choices they are making, and get the energy to do so. But it continues to be back and forward, not one clear path.

It is all very confusing, and at this stage depends so much on the individual and situation. Once they start comes towards us again, they stages seem to again be more uniform, and we all start hearing and seeing similar things again, as we did the first part of Replay.

These are just my thoughts!

Cheers

SR
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#52: April 14, 2012, 05:30:22 AM
I think that this period is where the type of MLCer dictates how they will react at his stage, in particular, if they have been a high energy MLCer or a low energy MLCer. I think this period is also influenced mainly by the amount of damage done in during Hard Replay.

From looking at sitches at this stage, it seems to me there are three main personalities. First is the Low Energy MLCer. This person jumped on the laid back steam train during Hard Replay. They escaped and avoided, but at the end of Hard Replay, where they land, they have burned off the MLC energy, but still have pretty much control of their life. They may have collected debts, but they can be serviced, they still have their homes and their job, or a job on a comparable level. As they do not have the Tsunami of Replay to deal with, Hard Replay fizzles out, and they seem more likely to land in the classic Limbo, no external demands that require them to keep taking steps forward in the tunnel. Trusting's H springs to mind here, as does Mermaids. Perhaps they are more likely to live at home, and never moved out.

The second is the Moderate energy MLCer. They have done more damage during Hard Replay, and from a practical sense their options are may be very curtailed, but they still have options. They may have eventually moved out, maybe in with OW. Trust and Love, I see your H as one of these.

The third is the classic High Energy MLCer. These people jumped on the Rocket in a bullet proof vest, and went very very hard. The end of Hard Replay was probably due to money running out, not because they ran out of energy. Practical matters demanded that they change at this stage. They have spend well beyond their means, with no thought for tomorrow, and when they stop Hard Replay, there is a good chance they have lost their source of income, and perhaps their house and Replay toys.

At the end of Hard Replay, the path the MLCer takes depends on the above.

Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

Medium Energy MLCers perhaps have the luxury of cycling back into Replay for longer. They still can scrap together the funds, and therefore can still Escape and Avoid for as long as they like. Again, they are not forced to look at themselves at the end of Hard Replay. They can potentially move to a higher energy Limbo.

The High Energy MLCers, well at the end of Hard Replay, the money has run out. And as the bills hit them, it is their name only that is on them. To begin with, it is why me, but the black and white evidence of practical matters suggests eventually to them that they are the common denominator. I think this may start High Energy MLCers on the road to Liminality earlier than the lower energy types. That sounds good, but the High Energy MLCer has a huge amount of practical mess to sort our before they can reach real Liminality. Those with babies perhaps fall into this category too.

I like the phase Early Lininality, it explains a lot. The definition I get of Liminality is that it is a time of realistic processing of issues. Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. The practical matters are processed first. Perhaps Low Energy MLCers can skip the practical processing, which is why they may go to Limbo, emotional matters are much harder to process. The processing of practical matters forces the High Energy MLCer to look at their world through different lens, and leads to the door of emotional processing too. But it must be done in tandem with the processing of piratical problems, so it remains intermittent. Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.

The awakening while described as a stage is really the awakening of reality on many different issues. I see this as being intermittent also. The fog may roll back for short periods of time, and various issues may surface. For an awakening on an issue, we need to hear it consistently for say 3 months. They may then move onto the next issue to awaken on. The easy issue are the first awakening, moving onto the harder issues of their relationship with us and also OW. When they have had an awakening on all the major issues, consistently, they then need the energy to act on them. When this energy builds up enough, that becomes the awakening of OW that HB speaks about. There is a need to act on that, and how their life has become, to move forward. But the ability to do so is still a work in progress.

Perhaps true Liminality is where the decision to change their life is made. A change in direction of their situation, and who they are. And after making so many bad choices, they are confident enough to stand behind their choices here. To me, this is where the Withdrawal and Depression stages kick in. They need to think about the choices they are making, and get the energy to do so. But it continues to be back and forward, not one clear path.

It is all very confusing, and at this stage depends so much on the individual and situation. Once they start comes towards us again, they stages seem to again be more uniform, and we all start hearing and seeing similar things again, as we did the first part of Replay.

EXCELLENT SR!

I like it, I might only add that the MLC'er already made one decision to change their life by entering into MLC.

Liminiliaty is when they might decide that the change has brought them down a cheesless tunnel,
and they maybe made a major mistake in their thought process.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#53: April 14, 2012, 07:29:07 AM
Interestng discourse on low, moderate and high energy MLCers; that's an extra 'category' (the medium) that we haven't really added before. 

From what I can see my H has avoided liminality; there was a time at the 2.5 year mark when he said that he cried a lot and wondered if he loved himself, but that swiftly went away.  So no consistent facing of anything.  Indeed, I have seen panic and depression surfacing on occasion, but he always beats it down. 

SR, I think it is interesting about the "moderate-energy" MLCer; a lot of damage caused but not as much as some; there still is money, or rather a source of income, even though huge amounts of been spent; somehow he finds the means to continue the activities.  I can think of a few times when he has avoided a reckoning; someone has bailed him out.   He hasn't lost all of his ability to charm. 

I think your comments about this period being influenced by the amount of damage done during hard replay is also notable. 

There is much more I could say; don't have time now, but I do like how you've analysed this. 

Of course, it also makes you wonder what on earth would be needed for a moderate-energy MLCer to change anything....
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#54: April 14, 2012, 08:04:11 AM
Hope Floats,
Your situation is reminding me that Sweetheart was in Taunt-n-Flaunt in 2006, home in 2007 and that was just quiet—not really depression and as a Clinging Boomerang I wouldn’t say Reconnection because he’d been home so often that I feel we were connected in that way, but we weren’t really rebuilding either, so it was tense. That’s when the affair was clandestine. But then when I discovered the affair was ongoging and kicked him out he returned to the Reply taunt-n-flaunt in 2008.
So in 2006 he was like that from April through August. During that period he was hom from April until July 7. Once he left he redirected his antics so they were no longer poitned at me. At times during the early period of that move home (He came home 29 March) I noticed blue moments, maybe a day or two at a time, but not significant. I think his taunt-flaunting may have been a function of the pressure and Emotional Black mail from the alienator and she tended to give him a break in the first weeks after he left her house to come—it was a pattern.
In 2008 the severity of his Replay antics were at 2005 bomb drop levels. I think they may have been high in 2006 as well, but since I was not longer raw and in shock, it didn’t feel as bad because I was handling it better. I was handling it in 2008 as well, but intelectually it seems shocking or amazing that he was all the way back at such high-energy and that was his last MLC activity before truly coming home. As soon as he left home the last time, it stopped—and I think we both knew it would. He once told me he knew he wanted to come home only three days after he left, a day or so after that he said he’d wanted to come home as he was driving to the alienator’s house. I think he had even left the week before and said he couldn’t do it, so he was back home by the time I came home from work. He knew before he left it was a mistake—that he didn’t want to do it. But at the same time we both knew he would leave and that it was the only way—though maybe that knowledge was subconscious on his part.

Hope Floats, I’m not saying this is where your MCLer is or what he’s doing…that’s the sort of thing we can’t know until afterwards, but it reminds me.

And this is the brilliance of HeartsBlessing. She adapted or reinterpreted Jim Conway’s stages. At one point I was even trying to write a comparative essay on the two and so I looked in detail at each stage as he described it versus her descriptions. She is a much better writer than Jim! But in the final stage—Acceptance—she added something brilliant. Brilliant! And that may (or must) have been what was going on with Sweetheart in that last burst of Replay.

6th Stage of a Mid Life Crisis

ACCEPTANCE


The Mid Lifer has navigated through five stages of his/her Mid Life crisis by now, and begins into the final stage--Acceptance.

Now, Acceptance is entered in "Stages" Three, to be exact.

Now during stage TWO of Acceptance, will come the temptations to want to go back to what they came out of. The silence of the spouse is most important during this time-all you can do is be understanding and patient with them as this MUST happen and they MUST come through alone.
They will SEEM to be going backward, but aren't, this is necessary for them to move forward.
It is during this time they will "revisit" ALL stages of the Mid Life Crisis except Denial and shuts the "doors" to each stage PERMANENTLY one by one, never to return.
If they give in to temptation OR get spooked by their final fears, they WILL run BACK into the tunnel a little ways. But they can only run back as far as the doors have NOT been closed permanently; most of the time they just run back as far as WITHDRAWAL, but will continue the process to come out once they feel "safe" to continue. So, they must be allowed to come through WITHOUT interruption, no matter what happens.

TrustAndLove,
That’s the thing about Awakening and maybe even that last bit in HeartsBlessing’s Acceptance; they can run back and get stuck. Awakening isn’t a straight march forward, it just is a bit of a jolt—and it jolts some backward and some forward.
Your MLCers is like a recycler; he keeps recycling Replay with each new alienator. He’s is a High-Energy MLCer. In a few of the Low-Energy threads you were a bit uncertain since there are different moods when he displays different energy. But it seems that having an alienator is the motivation for the energy. He hasn’t had a good Affair Down with Emotional Blackmail maybe—and yet that might be because he has enough inner strength and power to refuse such manipulation—since the initial crazy alienator really didn’t work out. He wants an alienator, but maybe he’s pickier than most MLCers.

I think the pattern is that he has never left Replay. He wants that high-energy alienator and each time he has a prospect he goes for the energy thrill. But they don’t last long enough for him to burn through anything. He then has a little Awakening where he may show some clarity and express his guilt while trying to boost his energy with other types of alienators—work. But he continuously refuses to drink from the liminal pool


…Just as at BD we do not process everything in one day, during Early Liminality, processing is intermittent. …Early Liminality to me describes the period from 18 months onwards, and may really last a couple of years. It is a part of what is currently called Replay.
Storm Rider,

AAAAAhhh, where is my article on Intermittent Liminality?! It’s part of the Limbo chapter, but I really did think I’d posted it a long time ago but I just googled and can’t find it. Oh, well, I can post it at the blog—since it goes with yesterday’s post.
I think you are right, that Liminality will start intermittently. But I also think it can be intermittent for some. Why? Well honestly it’s because I can’t figure out a full or deep Liminality for Sweetheart, but I definitely saw healthy activities that could have served liminal purpose—specifically his yard projects.

Well, the weird thing is that I was sure my Intermittent Liminality piece was longer and more detailed, but I must have edited it down some time ago. Maybe there is something I posted here at the forum I can find.
Okay, it looks like I talked about in coaching posts. I’ll review those and see if they have a bit more depth than what’s in the manuscript.

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#55: April 14, 2012, 08:09:40 AM
   Professor RCR, I like what you are doing. It is comprehensible and I really like what Storm Rider threw out there very much.  It does seem interesting though that some spouses, like mine, run hard and fast and then burn out and start with the whole 'grass isn't greener what happened?' and some are like my friend Wed2Him's H who has just been fantasizing about moving back home to the good ole days. Takes a vacation back home alone.  Mostly sitting around complaining and unfriending her on FB. Low energy throughout for him, No? Will he eventually kick in to High energy at some point?
  I get confused by the MLCers like hers bc it almost seems except for the ILYBINILWY speech he's pretty slug-like snails pace...(No offense Wed I love your crazy H) ;)  A quandary ???
Thanks Mamma I love my H too (most days). ::) ::) ::) ::)
And I agree there should be some type of a discussion regarding whether there is any predictability with regards to the various energy levels.  Will an MLCer bounce back and forth from low to high and degrees in between?  And how does their energy level correlate to the stage they're in?  How do outside circumstances determine energy level?  In my own sitch I know that my H would've moved out, had financial and employment concerns not impeded him.  And had he been able to move out I believe his Replay behaviors could've become extreme.  Do "wrong" actions (pressure, questions, beg n pleading) by the LBS serve to increase the energy level?  Like, if I began trying to have R talks with my H, would he decide he's moving out after all?
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#56: April 14, 2012, 08:29:49 AM
SR,

Quote
Low Energy MLCers perhaps fizzle out as a wind up toy low on batteries. They seem more likely to arrive at the destination of Limbo. There are no real practical matters to push them through the second part of Replay, hence their emotional awakening may take longer.

And this is something I have wondered about and discussed with other LBS.  It does seem my H may be "stuck" right now.  He hasn't got much to push him forward.  He is relatively comfortable where he is.  I do think it is very possible low energy MLCers may take longer to get through the process than high energy ones.  I guess time (and lots of it apparently) will tell.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#57: April 14, 2012, 03:51:30 PM

In 2008 the severity of his Replay antics were at 2005 bomb drop levels. I think they may have been high in 2006 as well, but since I was not longer raw and in shock, it didn’t feel as bad because I was handling it better. I was handling it in 2008 as well, but intelectually it seems shocking or amazing that he was all the way back at such high-energy and that was his last MLC activity before truly coming home.


That’s how I feel, that I am not as raw and the hurt isn’t it there.  When he upped to BD replay I was also surprised.  It seems he is trying to make a statement.Well he can make it all he wants, I am not going to run and hide, nor am I going to curl up and cry.  I think that surprises him.  I am watching him with vague amusement and frustration. 

Quote
As soon as he left home the last time, it stopped—and I think we both knew it would. He once told me he knew he wanted to come home only three days after he left, a day or so after that he said he’d wanted to come home as he was driving to the alienator’s house. I think he had even left the week before and said he couldn’t do it, so he was back home by the time I came home from work. He knew before he left it was a mistake—that he didn’t want to do it. But at the same time we both knew he would leave and that it was the only way—though maybe that knowledge was subconscious on his part.


Dearheart has said this a few times at the BEGINNING, that he wanted to come home.  Not now.  I suppose that makes it harder for some that they say things and then change their minds and you don’t hear it a gain.  Makes it feel like they mean it.  Except I can’t say I ever believed it.  Not when he is still bringing things “home”, not when after first BD he took them up to ow’s.  Things sit and stay here.

Quote
Hope Floats, I’m not saying this is where your MCLer is or what he’s doing…that’s the sort of thing we can’t know until afterwards, but it reminds me.


I agree with you, who knows where he is, except in replay the antics have upped again and it is safer to believe that is where he will stay for a while.  I will be journalling so we will see.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#58: April 14, 2012, 06:54:50 PM
I consider my husband High Energy. He is been in hard replay for over 5.5 years and I see no signs of it calming down. The money had not run out because he managed to turn his hard replay activities into money makers.

He is still going out to clubs and party until the day breaks, he keeps 3 jobs, he sleeps very little.

I saw a little awakening in him over 4 years ago when he and OW1 parted. He said she had been a wrong idea of how to sort problems and he knew he had done wrong. He pretty quick got into more hard replay activities, OW2 soon come along, they moved in together.

It is like he never burns out. OW2 has been lasting far more than OW1. During OW1 I was around, would have the relationship talk, push, saw monster often. When OW2 got into the picture I already was away, there has never been any talk about her, I went NC he become a vanisher.

Leaving him to himself does not seem to have worked out… looks like it only prolonged is Replay and made things worse?… Or maybe he is stuck… I wonder…
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#59: April 14, 2012, 07:49:48 PM
Hi everyone
I've been laying low with posting lately mostly for my own forward movement.  I must add to the conversation here as my Hs behavior has been so similiar to BD lately that it threw me off.  My timelines are similiar to SR and HF and I have a high energy replayer that was low energy I believe until he left then he kicked into HIGH gear..anyway...after having very little monster in awhile and NO R talk...I get lots of engagement this week...it was out of nowhere really but what I thought was interesting was that he was returning to the attitude he had just when he left...lots of justification...he knows he hurt me and D9..he knows he was wrong...and I am like WTH  :o :o :o :o who was asking...really his engagement of me seems almost desperate...he's desperate for my attention...this is how it feels..one minute we're joking and maybe a bit lighthearted the next he will send me a text about my nerve...the next minute he won't even come in the house  ??? ??? ???...even D9 was like mom what happened...and I said  ??? ??? ??? ??? I dunno know...Somethings up but I can't put a finger on it..but it felt like he returned to the attitude he had at BD..and in my mind I was thinking aren't we past this..really...how long are we going to stay here...and what this boils down to in my mind is that we are in very different places and the MLCer is behind and the interaction this week really shows me how behind they can be..not like it's a race but they are really in a very different place.

It seems like he's processing the same stuff he was trying to at BD and it's back.  I hope this makes sense. 

Just my .02
HUGS
BUGS
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#60: April 14, 2012, 07:56:52 PM
Was thinking about what I had wrote on my previous post. Maybe leaving him to himself did work out. For me. Those 4 years since OW1 have become less and less stressful and I’ve managed to move to a totally different place.

Also, mine may be stuck or choose to remain in Replay because he has no home or wife to come back to.

Buggy, it is not a race but a point comes when we have made huge improvements in ourselves, have moved, become totally different and they seem to remain where they were the last time we saw them. Or they have gone back to BD period/ seem to be going through the same things over and over again.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#61: April 14, 2012, 08:57:09 PM
Hi everyone
I've been laying low with posting lately mostly for my own forward movement.  I must add to the conversation here as my Hs behavior has been so similiar to BD lately that it threw me off.  My timelines are similiar to SR and HF and I have a high energy replayer that was low energy I believe until he left then he kicked into HIGH gear..anyway...after having very little monster in awhile and NO R talk...I get lots of engagement this week...it was out of nowhere really but what I thought was interesting was that he was returning to the attitude he had just when he left...lots of justification...he knows he hurt me and D9..he knows he was wrong...and I am like WTH  :o :o :o :o who was asking...really his engagement of me seems almost desperate...he's desperate for my attention...this is how it feels..one minute we're joking and maybe a bit lighthearted the next he will send me a text about my nerve...the next minute he won't even come in the house  ??? ??? ??? ...even D9 was like mom what happened...and I said  ??? ??? ??? ??? I dunno know...Somethings up but I can't put a finger on it..but it felt like he returned to the attitude he had at BD..and in my mind I was thinking aren't we past this..really...how long are we going to stay here...and what this boils down to in my mind is that we are in very different places and the MLCer is behind and the interaction this week really shows me how behind they can be..not like it's a race but they are really in a very different place.

It seems like he's processing the same stuff he was trying to at BD and it's back.  I hope this makes sense. 

Just my .02
HUGS
BUGS


Buggy something is in the air.  There are a few now within a similar time line as if our strength is right and they are heading back to sort out what they missed back then.


Of course we don’t respond the same way and they are left going HUH?


Still isn’t much fun to watch as they monster.  But I know exactly what you mean
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#62: April 15, 2012, 02:28:13 AM
This discussion is interesting because my H is back to 2010 when things were luuvverly in their relationship. I'm not sure he wants to go there but I feel that OW is trying to get him back there. But he is certainly buying silly stuff he did then and she is buying him gifts as she did then. Also H tastes are reverting back to his pre BD days in music, clothes etc and OW appears to be trying to buy into that too. Initially H bought into her life i.e music and clothes.

I don't see monster just a confusion and swirling.

The difference this time is that I'm not watching him so closely and I just 'feel' these things.

But one of them is def trying to get back to those heady days of love when they moved into together as a 'couple'. But I think HF is right maybe H is back there learning something he missed.

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#63: April 15, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
Snap my h is right back to the beginning of BD..........but without monster........when i rung him yesterday this was after no talking for a week the longest ive gone the whole time.......h answered on the second ring and sounded really happy to talk..........it was very noisy in the background and I could barely hear what h was saying so i said i cant hear you.........so he went outside and then told me he was in another town (with replay friends) hes not been with these people for months and said about 6 months ago he was done with all that.........only to go back........so i believe now he too missed something and needs to go back and address it..........like you WH, Buggy (nice to see your post Bugs  ;D) and JA i was confused and couldn't quite put my finger on it..........he changed around Xmas time whilst we still have contact it is very limited ( im dim) he will turn up however without warning so i wonder if hes testing me.........he would always text to say are you home etc........but rarely now........my BD is 3 yrs next month May 7th and it appears hes following the MLC script  ::) ::) ::) :D :D :D.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx   
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End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#64: June 17, 2012, 01:29:50 PM
Hiya,

Edit: Add link - OldPilot
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=26.0

I've been reading all the awakening/ reconnection threads from the archives today and just wanted to check my understanding and also how it realtes to my own sitch.

I get confused as to where the OW fits into all of this as some threads said that they can continue into withdrawal and others say that they must be gone and dumped to bring closure to replay.  Is it fair to say that the MLC'er might hold on to them longer than they should do hence delaying their journey on? And if so they have to go back into replay to  "shut the door" on it?

My H apologised for getting it wrong about me and acknowledged I had done nothing wrong and that he was projecting the whole time how HE himself was feeling.  He declared his love, said "what if I can't face my life without you". Told me of his wish for the new us to move on from here. Wanted to know how i felt, BUT, OW is still in the picture. He said "i have regrets and I haven't even done it yet" I think he was meaning dumping her. ( by the way this is all very sudden).

Now, I believe that I should consider this as a very big touch and go? The thing is he has made some kind of decision about our marriage in that he doesn't want it to end ( well that day he didn't )  He has made the decision to try and change jobs and understands his failings  and acknowledges that he spends so much time trying not to be hurt that he can hurt other people. Now, this all smarts of having already been in the liminality place.

Do you think sometimes they delay the actions of getting rid of OW because they don't have the energy and don't want to deal with it right then, but KNOW that they MUST.

It's all very confusing. I can't decipher whether this is all end of replay awakening or breaking withdrawal? If it is the latter then how can the OW still be there?

I must be having one of those thinking days. Or too much time on my hands days  :)

Thoughts anyone?

SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#65: June 17, 2012, 01:47:55 PM
Super,

While the things he has SAID are encouraging....right now they seem to be only words.

I think you can only truly see that this is more than a touch and go....when his CONSISTENT ACTIONS - support those words.

And TIME is the only thing that will show that these are more than words.

I believe your H meant what he said when he said it.  They cycle and change their minds so much....it is difficult to believe what they say....actually we are advised NOT to believe them.

Let him be...give him the time and space to turn his words into action.  It could take a while...but he is showing progress - based upon your posts.

Hang in there.

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#66: June 17, 2012, 01:48:31 PM
I get confused as to where the OW fits into all of this as some threads said that they can continue into withdrawal and others say that they must be gone and dumped to bring closure to replay.  Is it fair to say that the MLC'er might hold on to them longer than they should do hence delaying their journey on? And if so they have to go back into replay to  "shut the door" on it?

From RCR's article on Liminality

Some believe that the OW relationship will not survive into Liminal Depression and that this break-up may even be what facilitates the transition into Liminality. Though the latter may be true, it is not so in all circumstances, and the idea that the affair will not continue beyond Separation is misleading. The affair can continue through Liminality, but the nature of the relationship will change. The fantasy woman let her guard down and revealed herself; instead of infatuated, the MLCer may now feel trapped or stuck. Since he's destroyed everything else in his life, he might as well suffer through it and make this last thing work.

From RCR's blog Intermittent Liminality

Intermittent Liminality is part of the Limbo transition and thus it begins in Escape & Avoid. This may be the period when the relationship ends. The boundary between Escape & Avoid and Liminality is subjective, there is usually not one moment where they are in one and then they cross into the next a moment later. The affair is likely coming to an end, but as with everything, that is a process. An alienator can enable continuation of Escape & Avoid through pressure and guilt.

From RCR's blog Liminality Q&A

In MLC withdrawal is everywhere; personally I wish people would forget it as a stage because it causes confusion. When someone’s MLCer withdraws they think he’s at the end of or even past Liminality when it still Replay, maybe even early Replay.
It's all very confusing. I can't decipher whether this is all end of replay awakening or breaking withdrawal? If it is the latter then how can the OW still be there?
RCR's article Stage Obsession

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay_stage-obsession.html
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#67: June 17, 2012, 01:57:38 PM
I get confused as to where the OW fits into all of this as some threads said that they can continue into withdrawal and others say that they must be gone and dumped to bring closure to replay.  Is it fair to say that the MLC'er might hold on to them longer than they should do hence delaying their journey on? And if so they have to go back into replay to  "shut the door" on it?

From RCR's article on Liminality

Some believe that the OW relationship will not survive into Liminal Depression and that this break-up may even be what facilitates the transition into Liminality. Though the latter may be true, it is not so in all circumstances, and the idea that the affair will not continue beyond Separation is misleading. The affair can continue through Liminality, but the nature of the relationship will change. The fantasy woman let her guard down and revealed herself; instead of infatuated, the MLCer may now feel trapped or stuck. Since he's destroyed everything else in his life, he might as well suffer through it and make this last thing work.

From RCR's blog Intermittent Liminality

Intermittent Liminality is part of the Limbo transition and thus it begins in Escape & Avoid. This may be the period when the relationship ends. The boundary between Escape & Avoid and Liminality is subjective, there is usually not one moment where they are in one and then they cross into the next a moment later. The affair is likely coming to an end, but as with everything, that is a process. An alienator can enable continuation of Escape & Avoid through pressure and guilt.

From RCR's blog Liminality Q&A

In MLC withdrawal is everywhere; personally I wish people would forget it as a stage because it causes confusion. When someone’s MLCer withdraws they think he’s at the end of or even past Liminality when it still Replay, maybe even early Replay.
It's all very confusing. I can't decipher whether this is all end of replay awakening or breaking withdrawal? If it is the latter then how can the OW still be there?
RCR's article Stage Obsession

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay_stage-obsession.html
DGU, your posts would be easier to read if they weren't I one big quote.

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#68: June 17, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
Thank you.

I believe OP when he says believe none of what they say etc. I took his words with so many pinches of salt Limitless and will go gaily on my OWN way for now.

Thanks for the links to RCR blogs etc, they did remind me. Hee hee I'm really not in stage obsession. I Just find this whole MLC thing completely fascinating and I wish I were not involved in this one so I could view it entirely objectively. It's unbelievable how it plays out in such similar ways. I can't get my head round how they are so much the same. It truly is a process and yes I trust it.

I firmly believe that when all this is over for me I will come back to this forum to read up.

Sometimes I get fed up with my one though and look to see from the old threads etc how others have played out. Hence my q's based on my own experience of it. I'm not concerned with where he is right now as to where the kids and I are.

cheers
SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#69: June 17, 2012, 02:14:20 PM
You really are a model stander, superdog!  I've marveled at your posts over the last weeks and aimed to be more like you.  You seem really healthily detached while still caring - you're doing great!!  And it's obviously paving.  It's exciting to watch!

This really is a fascinating process, and though I wish none of us had to suffer any ramifications of our spouse's MLC actions, ultimately it's the acceptance that this process came for a reason and we're all going *through* it - not getting stuck - that will lead us to a new, better path than we ever imagined (even if the MLC'ers ultimately decide not to catch up).  Again, you really are an inspiration at how well you're doing it all. :)
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#70: June 17, 2012, 02:22:26 PM
Thank you for saying that Ready. I do have my days when i could punch his nose but then I picture it in my head, do it hard, then sit back and smile cos i never went to prison for the assault. :)

SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#71: June 17, 2012, 02:34:11 PM
Whilst the OW is still in the picture he is still in replay, though he maybe on the tail end. Your right it maybe a huge touch and go or move him further into the tunnel. He has to get rid of OW and move into OW withdrawal proper and then depression.

Whilst she hangs on she holds him in replay. He needs to find the strength to dump her and he will feel huge responsibility for her and she will play on that. At the moment he feels guilt about you and guilt about her and doesn't know which way to run. Let OW strangle their affair further and she will as she feels the huge cracks appearing.

Keep going as you are and let him keep coming to you.

You are roughly on my timeline and my H has just gone through a major touch and go and now anger is back big style as he tries to work out and reflect on what he wants. This maybe because he wants me to shut the door as it is easier for him as he then has to stay with OW.

All intersting stuff if we weren't involved lol

xx
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#72: June 17, 2012, 02:37:39 PM
If OW is in the picture he is still in replay.  He sounds like he is tip his toe into the next phase.  As long as she is there he stays in replay.  Be patient, trust your instinct, you will know when to push.  She is his problem and he must get rid of her.  There must be no connection or communication with her as he must enter OW withdrawal which is different from withdrawal.

Keep being the lighthouse.

Hugs,

Sassy
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#73: June 17, 2012, 02:58:10 PM
Withdrawal is one of Conway's stages, which if memory serves are aligned with Kubler-Ross' stages of grief (though I may not remember that correctly).  I prefer the terms for stages of Separation, Liminality and Reintegration.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about the possibility of OW (or OM) withdrawal.  It's a term that I mostly saw HB use and haven't read much about it.  I do think the OW/OM relationship can survive into Liminality, but like RCR's article says.....the nature of the relationship changes.  I am seeing this firsthand in my friend's situation.

Now with that said, I don't think any LBS can tell for many months afterward when the MLCer has potentially progressed to another stage.  In my friend's situation, his ex-wife started talking about wanting to return more than 6 months after expressing embarassment and shame for her behavior.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#74: June 17, 2012, 03:14:55 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what does that bit mean. The nature of the relationship changes? Is it about the infatuation waning and the emotional blackmail kicking in?

I honestly don't believe for a second he would say any of the stuff to her he said to me the other night. She would likely freak out and go all Glen Close on him. He has always sworn EA not PA, but that's probably a big fat wet hairy MLC'er lie but I would be interested in how an EA relationship would change. Is it just the same fantasy thing?

SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#75: June 17, 2012, 03:19:03 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what does that bit mean. The nature of the relationship changes?

In my friend's case, when his ex-wife started expressing regret and embarassment, she was still living with OM.  She told my friend they were roommates by that point and she was planning on changing her living arrangements.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#76: June 17, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
Superdog - my H expressed similar things to yours about six months ago.  He has broken up with the OW a few times since then, but she is clinging on for dear life.  (or he is, or both?).
The cycling towards us and then away has been crazy and turbulent since then.  Recently he seems calmer again. 
The OW is still there.
He has said on many occasions, that it's as though he is being pulled in two different directions, and has no idea which way to go.

I'm grabbing my popcorn.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#77: June 20, 2012, 10:20:12 AM
Superdog- my H is still with OW as well but has tried to leave several times.
So the nature of the relationship does change....infatuation (in the beginning) to a feeling of get me out of here but I have no idea how. My H has told friends that he wants out but has no idea how to....but I see depression in my H and he is still in replay
These OW hang on till the bitter end and it is exhausting (can't imagine how it is for them!!!)
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#78: June 20, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
Hi Ladies,

It looks like our timelines are pretty similar. I found out about OW in June 2009.

My H had a return to replay last night (read the bit on my thread it will eeek you out). Depression has been really apparent throughout the time and he appears to be making some real associations in his head. Hence his apology, which he reaffirmed last night right before his interlude to age 15. So some sort of awakening happened and was followed by severe crying two weeks ago.

Regarding OW I told him that if the elephant in the room that's been $h!teting on my carpet for the last 3 years does not leave, then I will personally see to the elephant and one of us will be finding another place to live. Sadly mine never left.

Have you seen a big difference? I have seen a difference in behaviour for sure. See how long it lasts.

SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#79: June 20, 2012, 11:43:10 AM
I added a link to the first post of this thread, I believe it is the thread that you were reading however if it is another one please let me know.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#80: June 20, 2012, 12:55:30 PM
Superdog- I have to say I do see a huge difference in my H.
I believe he is at the tail end of replay but who really knows and I see a man that is more mature, less monster, more depressed than earlier in replay but also more of the man that I knew before BD.
It is nice to see the changes but the depression is not so nice and he tries so hard to hide it from me but I can certainly hear it in his voice.

I haven't heard the words come out of his mouth yet but I guess time will tell the tale.
 :)
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#81: June 20, 2012, 02:09:23 PM
Hi Superdog
Uggh! It is a long long meandering path - this crisis of our H's!

Quote
My H had a return to replay last night (read the bit on my thread it will eeek you out).

The behaviour regressions are pretty hard to take - that would be especially difficult to tolerate.  I remember reading somewhere that these OW are often asked to tolerate, and partake in all sorts of things that they usually wouldn't dare ask of us.  You probably saw a window into that world.  He got things a bit confused by asking that of you.  Doesn't bare thinking about too much does it!

Think you and crazy are about 6mths ahead of me, although his detachment and the OW infatuation was building around mid 2009, BD wasn't until Feb 2010.
My H has been pretty manic again these past 6mths, but has recently been very open about not talking to me about how he was feeling (prior to BD) - and called it dishonest.  Acknowledged that his FOO set him up to be this way. He kept on saying how grateful he was that we could have these talks.
He seems much calmer these past few weeks, and much more like his old self.  He has been tramping one day per week, so I think that must be doing good things for his head. 

I'm not seeing much depression right now, although I did get a very mournful and long sounding phone message last night, when he couldn't get hold of us. 
There have been so many times, in the past few months,  that I've felt like he was holding onto the edge of the liminal abyss, and he's dragged himself back out and into replay again. 



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« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 02:12:36 PM by kikki »

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awakenings
#82: March 26, 2013, 01:38:11 PM
I have a question about awakenings.....

I understand that they happen intermittently but from my own h's behaviour they almost seem like they forget what they realised at a certain point in time.

My h says things like he is to blame for everything yet when i say even the slightest thing eg: i asked why he doesn't use his phone in the house when people are in, it all of a sudden becomes my fault by him saying it's because i don't like it and never have?????

I realise that this bit is about not accepting real responsibility for stuff and replay is still inplay, but when he made such a big deal of his apology about 9 months ago and letters he wrote me whilst living away outlined the classic replay of earlier events, he reverts back to this.

Is it merely denial and not coping with what they REALLY know to be true?

I am just wondering if they forget these moments of clarity for real or if they merely acknowledge then deny?

Just for the record i don't ask questions much at all, today i was merely making an observation to him and i told him this. I also said use away because nothing bothers me now.

I hope i have made some sense of my question.

SD
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Re: awakenings
#83: March 26, 2013, 03:51:30 PM
I have seen the same thing with my xh.  He had what I considered (and still do now) to be an awakening about 2 ½ years ago. In hindsight now, I can see what happened and put all the pieces together.  Prior to that he had some moments of clarity but it never stuck for long.  When it was real, I really felt it, it was very different but he still kept running after that.  It confused me.

 Mine created a ton of damage that was too great for him to handle, and what I have seen since has been dealing with the guilt and depression.   I was confused for a while because even after what I thought was a real awakening, he would regress.  He acted as though he was ready to face the damage, and I think he wanted to, but he was not at all prepared to face things. 

During the next round of connection for us, he was clearly depressed but very aware.  I think too aware of what he had lost.  He acknowledged things that he hadn’t in the past, like things I had done around my house.  He looked at pictures on my mantle with great sadness in his eyes. He had lost so much time, and had become aware of it.  He was overwhelmed and decided to run a little more to escape, but he could only go so far.  Just when I thought he was a goner for good, he’d come back for more!   With each cycle of connection for us, he, and probably I, have learned and gotten stronger.

It did seem like what he had learned or “awakened” to, had been forgotten, because when he felt cornered he’d spout off some serious nonsense.   I have learned since that he had not forgotten at all, it has just taken some time for him to process all of this.  I am learning from him just what a huge role guilt has played.  Fear has also been a huge factor.  When his feelings for me started to resurface, it overwhelmed him, and I saw how afraid he was of whether or not I would accept him. 

I hope this helps.  My xh is just now really starting to talk about things.  I hope he can continue to make progress.  The progress he has made lately has been very impressive, especially in acknowledging his guilt and how it makes him act.    He’s really frustrated with what he has done, and how to make peace with how his actions belied who he thinks he is.  He doesn’t understand most of what happened to him. What he does is trickling out slowly.

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Re: awakenings
#84: March 26, 2013, 04:30:35 PM
GBM, thank you so much for replying. This is exactly what I was getting at, you articulated it so much better. I guess maybe because you h is further on and you can see looking back.

It is confusing me as he appears to backtrack on what seemed real at the time it was said or done. My h keeps running shoes to his side at all times. I learned not to qustion, only to state things in actual fact, no opinions.

I see and hear guilt and it manifests in nonsense as you say. So I guess they don't forget just forget to deal with it.

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Re: awakenings
#85: March 26, 2013, 05:15:30 PM
Superdog,
 LOL "forgets to deal with it".  XH has forgotten a lot, and it all seems to be for the cause of saving himself at all costs.  All kidding aside, I have seen him absolutely panic when he has had a memory of something he did.  It isn't even spoken, I can just see the wheels turning, and the only thing he says is "I think I'm having a heart attack".  LOL, it may not be funny but when I look back on certain times, it amuses me, because I know this needs to happen, and he's not going to die!  I do treat him with a little bit of caution though, because it actually looks dangerous at times; his brain may short-curcuit if he gets too much information at once.  I tend to keep in mind that this man is very good at protecting himself, at everyone else's expense, so I don't worry too much.  He needs to learn how to not do this, and I have to give him credit, he is making huge progress.

I don't blame you for getting confused, and even very discouraged at times.  This take a long, long, time.  Some way longer than others; mine is a slow learner.  He has very immature defense mechanisms, and this is a big part of his problem. I see these moments of clarity, and then reverting back to MLC drivel as par for the course, and normal (for them).  I'm still learning.  Mostly I'm learning that I was seeing progress with him, but I didn't know it, or when I thought I did, I didn't have faith in it.  This was my face most of the time  :o :o :o 

Keep on stating the facts, matter of factly; that's what I started doing.  It seems to have an impact....eventually.  Sometimes doing this would make him angry, or defensive, and he would say hurftul things to me to get me to be quiet.  One of the best things I said to him once was "you must be really hurting to be so nasty to me, I'm sorry you are hurting".  It broke his defenses right down.  He said "when you are wiling to forgive and forget, I'll come running, but I'm not going to live in the past".  I told him that I can forgive but forget....NEVER!!  I didn't hear from him for a month, but that's ok, he heard me, and he took away a little more of what will be required from him. 
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Re: awakenings
#86: March 26, 2013, 09:33:38 PM
I have a question about awakenings.....

I understand that they happen intermittently but from my own h's behaviour they almost seem like they forget what they realised at a certain point in time.

It sounds like you are talking about touch and go's/
They are STILL in CRISIS!
When the crisis is over then things will start to make sense again.
But not until that time
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Re: awakenings
#87: March 27, 2013, 05:24:02 AM
Quote
you must be really hurting to be so nasty to me, I'm sorry you are hurting".   

What a good line -- well done. 
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Re: awakenings
#88: March 28, 2013, 03:45:37 AM
I agree with OP about them being touch and goes.

Awakening is at the end of replay as they start to move towards OW withdrawal or depression. At that point all replay behaviours will have subsided completely or be severely diminished.

But sometimes awakening looks like a touch and go and therefore maybe only seen in retrospect.

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Re: awakenings
#89: March 29, 2013, 09:53:02 AM
It is hard to know because many times i thought this is it, he would say all the right things, how sorry he was, it was all down to him etc and I am sure like an addict or alcoholic he meant it at the time. When it really happened, only last Nov after he had been home properly for 12mths, it was so different , and its not what they say but how they act, what they do and how they treat you.When it finally happens I think you know.

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Re: awakenings
#90: May 28, 2013, 08:42:26 PM
Happy to have found this thread. I believe we are in reconnection now, or at least very close to it.

I am having a difficult time with my H wanting to hang out with his friends and visit his mom on his days off. He is extremely loving and affectionate at home and wants to spend time with me all day at home. Sex is great, frequent, no monster, he is even better than his pre-BD self. Very thankful to me for everything. And he is even open to having another baby now, where as before his "no" was written in stone.   

But he just can't seem to bring himself to say "Hey lets get a sitter and go to the movies". I know that if I were to make plans he would go. But as a woman, who had been somewhat neglected until the past 6-9 months or so, I would like to see him put the same energy into taking me out. As well as we get along now, I really do struggle with figuring out why he can make outing plans with everyone else. If you want to spend time with me at home, why not outside? And I know I can initiate but I feel afraid and don't want to appear desperate. And I am wounded from all of this. For some reason I feel very vulnerable and the thought of even asking him to go out makes me anxious. So for now I guess we will just date from the couch.

I am grateful for how far he has come. This is my main complaint now, following behind his financial recklessness, which combined is nothing compared to before and what many still go through. So not really complaining. Just venting and trying to understand this.
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« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 08:53:51 PM by willitgetbetter »

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Re: awakenings
#91: May 29, 2013, 04:21:31 AM
Hi

Just caught up with this thread today and just wanted to say it is so inspiring to read people at more or less this stage all helping each other along.

Awesome  x
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Re: awakenings
#92: May 29, 2013, 04:38:45 AM
Willit

For some reason I feel very vulnerable and the thought of even asking him to go out makes me anxious. So for now I guess we will just date from the couch.

This is also how your H feels. He knows so much is riding on this that it frightens him also. Home is comfoprtable and safe. The big world is scary and challenging.

Your H is still moving through his journey. He is still cycling through what he needs to learning as he goes. But you are too. So you both end up to scared to ask each other.

IMO air your views in a friendly way and ask for his too.  If he would rather stay in at this time then you will know. But he may identify what his concerns are at the moment. Talking about them about them together is part of you both getting to know each other again  ;)

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Re: awakenings
#93: May 29, 2013, 05:49:10 AM
Crazy Journey,

Yes. It is a blessing. Even this far along it is still a challenge because instead of fully disconnected, which is uniform and you know what to expect, now you are connected but not fully. Its a different kind of rollercoaster, just not a big one. :)

Just Asking,

Thanks so much for your comments.

I never thought about it that way. I guess because he has come so far and will initiate kissing and affection. Will regularly walk over and give me a hug or say "come here and give me a kiss". Since he can do that, I would think saying "Hey lets go to the movies" wouldn't be a feat. Especially since I said "It would be nice if you wanted to stay home sometimes or if we could spend a day off together." His response was "Don't worry. We will when I'm on vacation in June". I asked in APRIL!!!  ;/ However, his mom and his friends get each of his weekends. From about noon to 9pm. More details in my thread.

I, on the other hand due to being wounded, can't even bring myself to initiate a kiss or a hug. So I commend him being able to even do that to me. And despite him being open to another baby, the thought of asking him to go out is paralyzing. Clearly, the fact that he is now open to a baby means he wants to stay. And he knows it is a deal breaker for me...yet he stays and continues to be affectionate.

He hasn't said "I want to stay."  But with other words when I have said for him to go ahead and find the better life he thinks he can have without me. Then he will say "No." or "What do you mean??!?!?" or "I'm very happy with you". And he shows it through his affection.

But despite all of this, I feel like I don't want to expose myself yet, until I have a "guarantee" that he is really in. LOL. I feel empty in the attention department and feeling like a male wants to spend time with me. So I crave male attention, not sexual at all, but friendship. I have an old fireman friend I have known for 20 years and am always looking to go out with him. When I do I feel re-energized. So the male attention thing is not about chemistry for me, I guess its about being appreciated and a male desiring to go out and have fun with you.

H sometimes seems bothered by it but doesn't really say anything. He will make a passive aggressive joking comment here or there. Like "Don't be givin my stuff away out there." LOL. I do recognize that a part of me does go out to say "Well...if you took me out, I wouldn't have to do this." But he still doesn't ask me out. LOL. However, me going out, even with girlfriends, helped tremendously in waking him up. Before we started reconnecting he would be like "Why are you always going out?" or "Who are you going out with now?"  He works nights so should be asleep when I leave, but instead on nights when I was going out, he would stay up to see what I'm wearing, would comment, and then stay awake until I came home. LOL. I got a kick out of it. But since reconnecting I haven't gone out as much because I haven't been as stressed or felt as much need to go out and "have fun". I was seeking attention in a more sexual attraction way back then because I was wounded and fully rejected. But its different now. I just crave male friendship. Maybe if I start up my going out again, I might just get a date or two. ;)
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Re: awakenings
#94: May 29, 2013, 12:07:09 PM

Merged this thread in with a SUPERDOG thread on the same subject from last year.

It is also a continuation of a thread we already had on this subject.
http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=26.0

Hope this helps to answer some questions for more people.
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« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:12:50 PM by OldPilot »

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#95: May 29, 2013, 12:23:22 PM
Posting so I can follow. Thanks.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#97: May 29, 2013, 12:29:26 PM
Haha. Did I? Guess I'm really fishing hard today. Sorry. LOL
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#98: May 29, 2013, 12:30:53 PM
Me too
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#99: May 29, 2013, 12:33:50 PM

Thanks Me three :)
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#100: May 30, 2013, 06:49:37 AM
This is very interesting to go back and re-read. I started the first bit nearly a year ago !

Now looking back i can see it for what it was. It was a crisis reaction to my leaving him at that time. He was panicking and i think that he had a meltdown. After all the apologies etc he went back to his usual bad behaviour when i came home, then got worse, then moved out, then came back and 1 year later he is just the SAME!!!!

Still projecting, still blaming, still wallowing in self pity, still in contact with OW  Still, still still.............

A year in the life of an mlcer wouldn't swap ya !!!

SD
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#101: September 10, 2013, 02:26:41 PM
Awwwwwww...

Very interesting tread, indeed !
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MLCers and Remorse/Reconnection/Reconciliation
#102: October 14, 2014, 09:50:47 AM
Hi everyone,

I have a question that has been bubbling up in my mind:

If an MLCer returns and eventually enters into reconnection and reconciliation, how do we know whether they are simply settling (i.e. the grass wasn't greener so I guess I will come back to this because no better option seems apparent)?

I ask because I read so much about MLCers coming back with guilt, but not true remorse in their hearts. They are not necessarily on their knees begging for our forgiveness for all the pain, devastation, and shattering they have inflicted on us that was a direct result of the choices they made. They are not saying they are 100% committed to us, the marriage, etc. and  will do whatever it takes to make things right. It sounds like if/when they do come back, they are moody, ambivalent, depressed, etc.---almost like a defeated, pouty teenager who didn't get his/her way.

So, are they just coming back because their flight to freedom, happiness, etc. didn't go they way their fantasy mind thought it would and just think something (us) is better than nothing?

I realize I may sound cynical and jaded. That's just where I am right now. I guess dealing with an MLCer will do that to a person.

I would love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

Wildfire
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 09:54:38 AM by Wildfire »
Married: 12 years
Together: 15 years

Can trace MLC behavior back to at least November 2012.
BD#1 May 2013 (No OW)
BD#2 November 2013: H said he needed time/space (Possible EA: A conversation with a woman that led to him asking me if I ever experienced anything like that?!)
BD#3: January 2014 ILYBNILWY speech and moved out for a month to live with male friend (still claims no OW)
BD#4: June 2014 (after a period of "coming  together" that was just a touch and go) said, I don't feel about you how I want to but I wish I did." Also wanted to "divorce and date" me. Upon sale of our home, I got my own place to live. H still says no OW.
August 2014: H filed for divorce; still in progress
October 2014: Alienator enters picture; I've been dim/dark since; suspect she's gone now. OW2?OW3? Who knows?

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Re: MLCers and Remorse/Reconnection/Reconciliation
#103: October 14, 2014, 10:01:36 AM
I have a question that has been bubbling up in my mind:
Adding this to an existing thread - see my post #30 above for more info.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#104: October 14, 2014, 10:19:41 AM
I would like to read this but I don't know what see my post #30 means
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#106: October 14, 2014, 10:37:56 AM
I would like to read this but I don't know what see my post #30 means
If you look at the reply # on your post it says #40.

This post is #42 but if all that fails do what Albatross said right above.
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Re: MLCers and Remorse/Reconnection/Reconciliation
#107: October 15, 2014, 03:06:38 PM
Hi everyone,

I have a question that has been bubbling up in my mind:

If an MLCer returns and eventually enters into reconnection and reconciliation, how do we know whether they are simply settling (i.e. the grass wasn't greener so I guess I will come back to this because no better option seems apparent)?

I ask because I read so much about MLCers coming back with guilt, but not true remorse in their hearts. They are not necessarily on their knees begging for our forgiveness for all the pain, devastation, and shattering they have inflicted on us that was a direct result of the choices they made. They are not saying they are 100% committed to us, the marriage, etc. and  will do whatever it takes to make things right. It sounds like if/when they do come back, they are moody, ambivalent, depressed, etc.---almost like a defeated, pouty teenager who didn't get his/her way.

So, are they just coming back because their flight to freedom, happiness, etc. didn't go they way their fantasy mind thought it would and just think something (us) is better than nothing?

I realize I may sound cynical and jaded. That's just where I am right now. I guess dealing with an MLCer will do that to a person.

I would love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

Wildfire


Thanks for attaching my thread to this one, OP. I read through this one and Superdog's and I see a lot about the stages of MLC and Awakening, but not much specific to my question.

My question pertains to concerns about being second choice if/when MLCer returns and how others cope with that.

I don't want to be anyone's second choice. I don't want to be what anyone is settling for because the fantasy didn't work out. I am wondering if others experience those feelings while standing and how they cope with them.

Thanks!

Wildfire
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« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 03:08:18 PM by Wildfire »
Married: 12 years
Together: 15 years

Can trace MLC behavior back to at least November 2012.
BD#1 May 2013 (No OW)
BD#2 November 2013: H said he needed time/space (Possible EA: A conversation with a woman that led to him asking me if I ever experienced anything like that?!)
BD#3: January 2014 ILYBNILWY speech and moved out for a month to live with male friend (still claims no OW)
BD#4: June 2014 (after a period of "coming  together" that was just a touch and go) said, I don't feel about you how I want to but I wish I did." Also wanted to "divorce and date" me. Upon sale of our home, I got my own place to live. H still says no OW.
August 2014: H filed for divorce; still in progress
October 2014: Alienator enters picture; I've been dim/dark since; suspect she's gone now. OW2?OW3? Who knows?

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#108: October 15, 2014, 08:56:59 PM
I agree with you , Wildfire. I've told W that I'm waiting for her but that I don't want her to return unless she decides she loves me and wants to be with me. I hope someday to have the opportunity to try and figure out whether her return is sincere. So far it's not an issue.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#109: October 15, 2014, 09:20:43 PM
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#110: October 15, 2014, 10:52:35 PM
Quote
My question pertains to concerns about being second choice if/when MLCer returns and how others cope with that.

I don't want to be anyone's second choice. I don't want to be what anyone is settling for because the fantasy didn't work out. I am wondering if others experience those feelings while standing and how they cope with them.

I think it's very healthy to feel that way.  Shows the initial blow to our self-esteem of BD is returning to a healthy place (or maybe reaching it for the first time - I know I'm stronger now than I ever was before, and have far more requirements of others in order to be in a relationship with me). 

I tend to view MLC in a very clinical way, so even though emotionally I think many of them return with this sort of immature, self-serving purpose on the outside, my logic brain wants to say the underlying reasons why we are still the "home" they seek have to do with subconscious, crisis-related mechanisms and chemicals that are still keeping them in a place of crazy.  That doesn't mean we have to take them back in the way that they want us to, or even at all.  It is a choice, and one that we'll be making whichever way it goes from a stronger place that is more in line with our own needs (whether that's the need for a healthy partner, the need for companionship, the need to move on, the need to do as God wishes for us, etc - whatever fits).  Mine is in no way on the path I paved, so I don't have a decision made.  If and when the time comes, I have a belief that I'll know what the right choice is.  It's a practice to not dwell on it, one I'm not very good at, but what I'm aiming for all the same. :)
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Touch & Go vs. reconnection
#111: August 18, 2015, 04:58:46 PM
I read an article briefly about the difference between touch & go and reconnection but I can't seem to find it back.
I am very curious about the difference. My bomb drop occurred 2 years ago. After that my husband was very distant and sometimes mean. After he moved out last year he has definitely been a boomerang - coming and going, treating it as though he still lives here. He also connected pleasantly often and then would withdraw.
At some point he began a physical relationship with someone he had likely been in an emotional relationship with. When I foubd out about it we had a very emotional conversation and he indicated that he did not want a divorce but that he intended to continue seeing Her.

Since then - about a month now the interactions between us feel very different. We had to go to something for my daughters school and we rode together. When he is here we laugh a lot more and share more about what's going for both of us at work, etc.  The other day it was our wedding anniversary and though we didht acknowledge the day he spent the entire day with me (not just with the kids). In that time the only time I feel the go is right after he's spent time with her.

Can the reconnection begin even while the OW is still very much in the picture?
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Re: Touch & Go vs. reconnection
#112: August 18, 2015, 05:25:53 PM
Can the reconnection begin even while the OW is still very much in the picture?
I would say no, not true reconnection.

Normally as long as the OW is around they remain in REPLAY.

I have merged your post into a thread that talks about this, and there is a link to an earlier thread in post #1.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#113: August 18, 2015, 06:58:52 PM
Wildfire - So, are they just coming back because their flight to freedom, happiness, etc. didn't go they way their fantasy mind thought it would and just think something (us) is better than nothing?

I realize I may sound cynical and jaded. That's just where I am right now. I guess dealing with an MLCer will do that to a person.


I am so there right now, Wildfire.
I haven't heard anyone else express this.  Thank you.

My H did try to find an ow.  Or at least it seemed he did.  In the first few months, after bd (almost 5 years ago), he signed up on to dating sites, looked around but never actually joined them.  He joined a dating service but only got one "good" response, which didn't work out...and it was like he gave up.

Sometimes I wonder if we are together because he just settled.
He has never been with another woman since we broke up.  He has only been with me for the past 30 years.  I hate to think that way, our relationship is good, but it nags at me sometimes.

He calls me every day.  We are together almost every day.  We are intimate almost every day. He seems happy to be with me but I still have doubts.   :-\
I poo poo them away but their still there.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#114: August 18, 2015, 08:32:25 PM
Thanks Oldpilot. I also found the article I had read earlier and it provided the clarification I have been looking for. Essentially the touch & go abs reconnection behaviors may look very similar. I am trying not to worry about the stage my husband is in and focus on finding my joy. Some days it is easier than others.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#115: August 19, 2015, 12:23:37 AM
I believe that MLC have same dynamic at the end as in beginning. It is like a wave or hill if You like. Top of the wave or hill is peak of the replay so as much time they spend in separation they would spend it in later phases of MLC. So LBS only can notice turbulent phase top of the wave, which is replay. All other is longest and silent.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#116: August 19, 2015, 12:56:35 AM
My H said a few months ago that nothing external worked.

He's been very quiet since but recently mentioned on the phone that my problems at work (demotion/anxiety/insomnia) were from the torture he put me through when he left. This is true but I have never blamed him for it.

I'm trying not to stage watch but these seem very significant to me.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#117: August 19, 2015, 05:38:17 AM
Hmmmm - it is so hard not to stage watch. It gives us hope that there is light at the end of this dark tunnel. My counselor has been working with me on accepting things for what they are - regardless of the stage he's in I would hold it as a small positive that he at least sees the connection between his behavior and negative things in your life and leave it at that. Trying to read too much into it will only make you feel disappointed if/when he starts acting like a fool again :-)

Good luck.
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#118: August 19, 2015, 05:41:13 AM
Trying to read too much into it will only make you feel disappointed if/when he starts acting like a fool again :-)
Or worse yet when he is NOT in the stage that you thought or progressing the way you EXPECTED.

RCR does have an article about stage watching,  I will see if I can find it for you and edit this with a link.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_separation_replay_stage-obsession.html
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« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 06:41:18 AM by OldPilot »

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#119: August 19, 2015, 06:28:36 AM
Thunder~  I have never openly expressed my fear of my H settling for me and for our M, but I have that fear also!   I lived that fear for 15 years after we divorced and he came back early on in our M.   I figured out that living in that fear kept me from actually living in my marriage!!!  It kept me from living my life and loving fully. 
Not sure exactly how I change  that and end that fear but I am working on it because I refuse to live this  "new" relationship in fear!!

 Not an easy task ,but I feel it has a lot to do with my thinking!!!  The mind is very strong!
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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#120: August 19, 2015, 06:49:58 AM
31,

I think it's just insecurity.  When you get dumped you become very insecure and it takes a long time to get over it.

The irritating thing is I'm NOT an insecure person.  Not in the least, but this has done a number on me.
I'm sure your H wouldn't be with you if that is not what he truly wants.

I suppose the same with mine.   :-\
Must rid ourselves of this doubt, huh?
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"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#121: August 19, 2015, 07:03:53 AM
Very true, it is an insecurity and I am not an insecure person either.
I do believe we can get over it.  Again its, time is our friend I guess!!!
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#122: February 04, 2016, 06:08:45 AM
I posted this on Law Professors thread however this can also be a place to discuss this topic

These are RCR's words not mine however I think that a discussion of them for this board  might be appropriate.

http://loveanyway.theherosspouse.com/midlife-crisis-and-infidelity/limbo-the-threshold-between-phases/

Quote
They question their Escape & Avoid actions and motives and make a decision about what they want. That does not mean this is their final decision; but for some it is here that they decide with a more stable certainty that they do NOT want to return to their marriage.

My point of the above quote is this IS one possibility of STANDING.
You may STAND forever WAITING.
However Standing is NOT waiting, it is living your life "as if" they are never coming back.

What do you want that life to LOOK like?
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#123: February 04, 2016, 06:14:11 AM
I think I am seeing this stage now and I believe these words are true and well written. 
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#124: February 04, 2016, 07:15:31 AM
I don't know if I should comment here, but I have noticed a lot of "talk" from my H.  Not a lot of action.  He says he wished he could take it all back/ or away or something like that, says for me not to blame myself, says it is confusing and complicated, says he won't abandon me, takes some responsibility but says we both had a role.  Was even home for a few months, but OW wasn't gone.  However, over last few months, contact has been less from him....not sure what to make of that when earlier near BD he was checking in fairly regularly.  I know I'm only in 19 months.......but I'm still extremely confused.  Was told he was still in "replay" because of the timeline, but is he?  I don't know if commenting here about what I see helps or is significant to this discussion, but my H is still not home even though he says things that sound hopeful.  I hear promising stuff from him and see something else.  TBH, I don't know what stage my H is at.  Replay sounds about right, high or low -- I don't know.  But for sake of discussion here, I'm posting my observations from my sitch.  I've learned that analyzing and focusing on trying to figure it all out just drives me insane.  Anyway, that's my two cents from side.  Thank you for this discussion, does help to learn.     
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#125: February 05, 2016, 02:33:47 PM
Hi Since I never knew fully about this subject except for the jokes, I'll say again, I find this topic absolutely fascinating! In Limbo would be the PERFECT way to explain exactly where h is. I hear the arguing and breaking up every week w/ h and the OW. H goes from saying he feels depressed to more High Engery Replay antics yet I could never find anything that stated where he is. I'm not doing this for him, yet for my information and learning since the  topic is so interesting to me.  He refrains from discussing much of his “determined idea” to travel cross county in an RV yet the OW and him are breaking up, and getting back together constantly yet I'm the blame for that for some ridiculous MLC reason lol. I realize now   their relationship CAN go into liminality OR he CAN find another woman yet it all depends on his choices to move on and just go into liminality or continue to “have fun” with the MOW, or another OW. In Limbo is the perfect to place to describe where h has been for a while now.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#126: January 29, 2017, 11:37:53 PM
As we all know there is no so much insights about lather phases of MLC, imo there is two reasons for it. One is that MLC is so long in time, a lot of years :) and forum is in dimensions of MLC time span relatively young. In other hand LBS's abandon forum and get a life as individuals or successfully restore own marriages and there is no feedback from them.

My W is for sure out of replay and I am pretty sure completely. She tried to get back in replay but does not work anymore for her. So, she "taste liminal water" as RCR said in metaphorical expression. So, she is in liminal depression. But what I notice is that she still cycling.  Means she cycling  between liminal depression and limbo. Somehow like limbo is place for resting. How I see replay now is that they learn in replay what was wrong with them in relations with other people so they made same mistakes with them and after several circles they got it that it is because of them not everyone else. There then come realization that their misery is not our fault. There projections of their shadow in us stop. So they start to see us as a better people then those with whom they spend own replay time. Even though, they knew that those replay relationships would not work in the first place. So, lala world do not function, reality ether. They are nowhere, that must be horrible place to be. In that place they look pretty much as they were before crisis, all seems normal and in same time nothing is normal. I now have spouse who see me as a significant other, even though  she care about me in many ways she show that. But that is away of normal marriage. She share own thoughts and opinions, but intimacy of any kind or, God forbid feelings, there is no way, yet.
Basically MLCer can spend rest of the life being in liminal depression - limbo circle theoretically... How those back and forth actions produce movement in small steps, eventually they would climb on the top.

In this stage, I believe LBS state of mind is crucial for future possible reconciliation. So, LBS suppose did own journey of mid life transformation. In this stage they suppose to learn from us.

Old LBS'es, what do you think ?
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 11:40:41 PM by Albatross »

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#127: January 30, 2017, 06:18:37 AM
Good to hear you believe her replay has ended Albatross!!!

I believe that the LBS can guide the MLCer at this stage by remaining strong and consistent in behaviors. Stay the course and gently nudge her when the opportunity is there. Open up an opportunity to share her feelings.  You will know when and what to say, you are a pro at this!!

(hugs)
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#128: January 30, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Very interesting.

I do believe once they are out of replay, they can never go back to what it once was.  They can try but that chapter is over with.  The door is closed.

I also believe when they go through Liminality, it's not always going to be what the LBS expects or wants.
Some MLCer's do take the leap and decide they no longer want to go back to the relationship, even though they can now understand it was not a bad relationship.
It just no longer fits their new persona.

I suppose it depends on how much their new persona has changed them.  I'm only guessing.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#129: January 30, 2017, 07:17:07 AM
I take very much on board that the MLCer, coming through liminality, may well rationally decide that they don't want to go back to the marriage because it really doesn't suit their new persona; i think many of us may wonder if our MLCers have reached that point, especially those of us who have been in it for a long time.

I think the thing that might characterise that, however, is that they would show at least some awareness of what the LBS had gone through, at least on some level, and some awareness of their own behaviour. 

If they truly realise that no, it wasn't a bad marriage, then some degree of empathy might not be unreasonable.   

I think if they still blame the LBS, however, that this isn't the point they have reached.  I think that if that is the case, then they still don't want to face themselves. 

I wonder if RCR has more thoughts on this?
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#130: January 30, 2017, 07:53:19 AM
I agree with that, trust.

I just wonder if some of them do in fact feel the remorse but don't deal with it.  Don't act on it.
Maybe they just push it aside, or put it somewhere where they don't have to deal with it to start their brand new life.

I sure don't know.  If you find anything on it by RCR, let us know.

I would logically think they would at least acknowledge the pain they have caused and apologize.
Recovering alcoholics do it all the time.

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#131: January 30, 2017, 08:04:12 AM
I do believe once they are out of replay, they can never go back to what it once was.  They can try but that chapter is over with.  The door is closed.
Not sure I agree, certainly HB writes that the door closes once they go through acceptance not at the end of each stage.
So the real question is if in the limbo - depression circle/cycle that Albatross is writing about if that is indeed the end of replay or just a morphing into some other running away action.

The first three stages are suppose to be running away stages and the last three are suppose to be returning.

So Albatross is she returning to you?
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#132: January 30, 2017, 09:01:25 AM
I do believe once they are out of replay, they can never go back to what it once was.  They can try but that chapter is over with.  The door is closed.
Not sure I agree, certainly HB writes that the door closes once they go through acceptance not at the end of each stage.
So the real question is if in the limbo - depression circle/cycle that Albatross is writing about if that is indeed the end of replay or just a morphing into some other running away action.

The first three stages are suppose to be running away stages and the last three are suppose to be returning.

So Albatross is she returning to you?

Sure, there is many, many signs. She nesting, means with house. She have plans what to buy for house and so on. She desperately try to connect with children. As all we know I am last in line.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#133: January 30, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
My wife has also been showing some signs of awareness. We chatted recently on FB and she told me she was sorry she caused me so much pain and that she was sorry she had hurt me so badly. She's been spending a lot of time at D33's house and with GD15. She told me that D33 is not happy with her and she admitted that it's her fault.

When this happens it's very difficult for the LBS because you see them starting to be more like their old self and you see them trying hard to reconnect with everyone else yet there's very little evidence of any movement towards the LBS. The only thing I have to hold onto is the fact that she contacts me regularly using FB PMs and that it's been almost 6 months since I helped her figure out what to tell her lawyer she wants from the divorce and I still haven't heard anything from the lawyers. I was nervous about mentioning the lawyers because I'll be checking my email soon and every time I check it I expect to find something there. I'm afraid by mentioning it I'll have jinxed myself.

It's difficult because it feels like everything is returning to normal except for my relationship with my wife. It makes me want to run as far away as I can get but I hold on and wait to see what's going to happen next. GD15 broke up with her boyfriend yesterday because Grandma has been coming around a lot lately and she's expecting Grandma to go away again any time now so she's trying to protect herself by distancing herself from people who she's afraid might leave her. This is hard.

Update: I didn't jinx it. There was nothing there again today. I'm safe now until I check it again on Thursday.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#134: January 31, 2017, 04:26:44 AM
My own experience appears to be, and I say appears to be because I've learned that so often, what I think is the case isn't, that he is too afraid to deal with it, or something along those lines. 

We went through an extended period, which started now about 2 years ago, when he really did seem to be very slowly starting to deal with reality.  But then, despite many positive and self-aware actions, he DID go back to another avoiding activity.  Or rather, another infatuation took hold.

I can wonder all I want if he started to deal with the demons, then the invfatuation/addiction took hold, or what, but I do know that the behaviour suddenly went back to what it was like ages ago. 

As I know I've written before, it was as if he had been a recovering alcoholic, and then suddenly started drinking again. 

It took me quite a while to come to terms with it; I had almost got used to being able to count on him for things with the kids and we even got to the point of being able to talk openly about some family things.  Not quite r talk about us, but about the reality of how things were now.

Then shutdown.  It took me months, though, to go dark again....; I guess that's normal, because we don't really know if it was going to be a blip, or a long descent again.  It turns out it's the long descent. 

That's the best I can come up with for my own situation. 

I can speculate if it was a rational decision, but to me, that would mean speaking rationally about it, and that isn't the case, it was back to blame and monster. 

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#135: January 31, 2017, 07:23:25 AM
I remember reading somewhere that these OW are often asked to tolerate, and partake in all sorts of things that they usually wouldn't dare ask of us. 

Yes, yes, and yes. As much as we are going through hell from what I can tell the OW is not the object of their affection. More like an object to be used for whatever they want to use it for and the object's own feelings be damned.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#136: February 03, 2017, 06:01:09 AM
Just joining in here.
I don't think my XH is in an awakening, but he may well be coming out of replay.

He just seems more like his old self on the surface. Makes me laugh. No wild eyes. Sounds normal on the phone. Wants to see the children once a week. A year or two ago and he didn't even know he had children. He missed all their sports days etc.

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Re: End of Replay awakening / Withdrawal
#137: February 03, 2017, 06:10:05 AM
I remember reading somewhere that these OW are often asked to tolerate, and partake in all sorts of things that they usually wouldn't dare ask of us. 

Yes, yes, and yes. As much as we are going through hell from what I can tell the OW is not the object of their affection. More like an object to be used for whatever they want to use it for and the object's own feelings be damned.
My H is still deep in the tunnel but I had thought he was head over heels for this OW in a way he hadn't been with the others.  However, I later found out he dumps her about every week and has updated his dating profile on POF.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#138: February 03, 2017, 07:42:02 AM
Does anyone have insights regarding the stages for an H that was more connective the first 1.5 years after BD than went distant and more detached over last year or so? Shortly after BD he was caring and asked if I'm ok, etc.....Then last year has been practically nothing.  Unless I initiate a contact.
Seems backward to me, but maybe I'm not understanding correctly.  Is the recent withdrawal a stage or depression?  I have no idea..... when we do connect via text, his responses are pretty short.  And he doesn't reach out to me now unless it's concerning business/home/money. 

As far as I know only one OW, same one since BD.  And doesn't live at home.
Just curious as to where in stages my H might be.  It's been 2 years and 7 months (with exception of premature return)
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#139: February 03, 2017, 07:54:34 AM
Does anyone have insights regarding the stages for an H that was more connective the first 1.5 years after BD than went distant and more detached over last year or so? Shortly after BD he was caring and asked if I'm ok, etc.....Then last year has been practically nothing.  Unless I initiate a contact.
Seems backward to me, but maybe I'm not understanding correctly.  Is the recent withdrawal a stage or depression?  I have no idea..... when we do connect via text, his responses are pretty short.  And he doesn't reach out to me now unless it's concerning business/home/money. 

As far as I know only one OW, same one since BD.  And doesn't live at home.
Just curious as to where in stages my H might be.  It's been 2 years and 7 months (with exception of premature return)
It really just sounds like a case of a change in contact type, with the most confusion/contact at the start of the crisis and yes more depression as he got deeper into the tunnel.
Sounds like he is more of a vanisher at this point.

My .02
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#140: February 03, 2017, 07:58:33 AM
I've had cycles like that all along; I agree that it is more depression the deeper he gets in; also, for a while (and I've experienced many "a whiles") the high of whatever activity he is into keeps him away as we. 
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#141: February 06, 2017, 07:42:56 PM
Summer progress, I believe MLC is about reaching a point in life when you are fed up of reaching others expectations. It it becomes a search for your authentic life whatever course you now choose. These may be replay behaviours from your past which made you happy at the time. Which may alter your opinions for the future. What really matters is that you are happy with you choice and you learn from MLC
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#142: February 07, 2017, 08:49:59 AM
Interesting that so many experiences are so different.  After 6 years in I've yet to hear one word of remorse from my XW or even admission that she caused anyone hurt at all.  Kind of demoralizing to think that she still blames me even after all this time and even though absolutely none of her plans for her and lawyer boy have worked out. Glad at least some of us are seeing positive signs.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#143: February 07, 2017, 09:19:45 AM
The first three stages are suppose to be running away stages and the last three are suppose to be returning.


ON HS we only have 4 stages, OP. :

From RCR MLC stages:

Pre-Midlife: Accommodation
1. Separation
   a.Rejection & Refusal
   b.Resentment
   c.Escape & Avoid (Covert Depression)
   High-Energy: Reply
   OR
   Low-Energy: Wallow
2, Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
3. Rebirth
4. Reintegration


HB has six:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Replay
4. Depression
5. Withdrawal
6. Acceptance.

RCR does not count denial, anger, depression and withdrawal as stages, since those things, expecially the first three, are present during the whole of her first stage, Separation, that includes Escape & Avoid. Withdrawal can also be present at several stages. And deprssion, denial and anger do not automatically go away after Escape & Avoid.


As much as we are going through hell from what I can tell the OW is not the object of their affection. More like an object to be used for whatever they want to use it for and the object's own feelings be damned.

Yes. But the OW/Om is also using the MLCer for their own purposes. The OW/Om is simply the one person (or people, for those with multiple lienators) who was (were) willing to get along the MLCer. It could had been anyone, providing they were up to it,

What really matters is that you are happy with you choice and you learn from MLC

If MLCers are happy with their choices, why do they soon look miserable? Why are they angry, depressed, bitter? If they were happy with their choices, they would not be that way, would they? And I am still to see what has a MLCer learned from MLC. As for learning, I don't know what peope that have had a MLC have learned. While deep in crisis they don't seem to learn much.

Personal happiness at the expense of causing pain to others is not happiness. It is just being selfish.

But this thread is about Limbo & Awakening, not about MLCers happiness.

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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#144: February 07, 2017, 09:53:18 AM
The first three stages are suppose to be running away stages and the last three are suppose to be returning.


ON HS we only have 4 stages, OP. :

From RCR MLC stages:

Pre-Midlife: Accommodation
1. Separation
   a.Rejection & Refusal
   b.Resentment
   c.Escape & Avoid (Covert Depression)
   High-Energy: Reply
   OR
   Low-Energy: Wallow
2, Liminality or Liminal/Overt Depression
3. Rebirth
4. Reintegration


HB has six:

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Replay
4. Depression
5. Withdrawal
6. Acceptance.

RCR does not count denial, anger, depression and withdrawal as stages, since those things, expecially the first three, are present during the whole of her first stage, Separation, that includes Escape & Avoid. Withdrawal can also be present at several stages. And deprssion, denial and anger do not automatically go away after Escape & Avoid.

Actually neither RCR or HB invented these stages.
Conway was the first to write about the 6 stages of a MLC
and RCR uses Murray Stein's interpretation.

http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=4.msg271#msg271
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#145: February 07, 2017, 09:57:55 AM
Actually neither RCR or HB invented these stages.
Conway was the first to write about the 6 stages of a MLC
and RCR uses Murray Stein's interpretation.

Indeed.

Personally, I prefer RCR ones. They make more sense in the context of MLC.

This link may be easier, since it only has RCR MLC stages: 

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_stages.html - The Stages of Midlife Crisis
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#146: February 07, 2017, 12:31:21 PM
In REPLAY threads I wrote that replay in my opinion belong to liminality based on Murray Stein's interpretation.And RCR have different opinion. I would like to argue about that if I have possibility.
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Re: Limbo & Awakening
#147: February 07, 2017, 03:07:21 PM
Yes, you can, Albatross.

My suggestion would be for you to start a discussion thread on the matter.

These green icons threads with the several types of MLCer and MLC stages are more informative, and for people to post questions about each of the issues than for a more specific discussion.

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