[justasking]

We all get to a point where we wonder "Where in the stages is my MLCers?". I guess it is stage obsession.

True but there is also the need as part of our knowledge base of understanding what is liminality/withdrawal and how does it manifest itself.

IMO every journey is different and identifying this part of the process is difficult especially as they can run with deep depression and withdrawal together.  Neither are linear and none of us knows what 'withdrawal' looks like as we see withdrawing throughout the process. I believe that they run with maybe 2 or 3 stages at once as they move around in the process getting what they need to move forward and there are some parts of replay that they keep i.e new hobbies etc.

I think we can easily misread stages as well. But true withdrawal and liminality is very different to depression and withdrawing. But for LBS who have no or hardly any contact it is difficult to see. And until you see true liminality deep depression can certainly muddy the waters.

My question would be about OW and how long she stays around. MLCers hate being on their won so do they keep the door open on the OW/OM as they are moving forward with a different plan i.e potential of reconciling with the LBS? HB says that the OW/OM must be gone before they can enter withdrawal proper. But the more stories I hear are about the MLC er hanging onto the OW/OM right to the end even though the relationship is toxic. Maybe that last step forward is the hardest as their fantasy finally disintergrates.

Back to detaching ladies and gents to watch the performances before we are all insane lol

xx

[offmyrocker]

In my case my h kept ow around as long as possible until he could make a decision... at that point he felt he was going to lose me when he finally left her. I believe. that he made it so unbearable to live with that she ended it... or she creatd such a fight that he could just walk out... He reconnected  with me while he was with her. He left her and went to his fathers... his dad wasn't there... he asked me to come. He was there for 2 days while we had some privacy to talk and he drove me home and didn't leave... it doesn't usually go very smoothly... but i do think that they live with ow until they make a decision it their head... and set up a situation to leave when the pain there is finally too much.

No my h never filed a divorce. before i found this site. i actually filed and he freaked. he wouldn't answer the court or follow through on anything regarding it. the divorce was ultimately dismissed for good out of the court this past November 9th. I filed after he moved in with OW. But, after he told me in may that he wanted to try with me but still wanted to live with OW... i refused. and i believe OW was trying to tell him that he had a right to have the girls at their place. i stood my ground with it... and the girls didn't want to go. so he blackmailed me. with the influence of OW im
sure... he cut me off of money until he could have the girls sleep over there... I was pissed and i lost it and b*tch mode came out.... told him if he wanted to play dirty... i can play. and i sent him back a text that he had sent to me when we were intimate a few months before... i told him that i was well  prepared and that if i didn't have a place to live... well than neither would he. he backed down and put the money in the account.... so he did do things that im sure ow pushed him to do... and they do it because they don't want either world to end at that point.

OMR

[Bewildered]

Both interesting points made but has anyone seen in their MLCer 0- them doing ?? to change themselves? To be these new people - anyone??

Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently as Liminality says they do - testing it to see if they like this new person

Bx

[summer progress]

...but has anyone seen in their MLCer 0- them doing ?? to change themselves? To be these new people - anyone?? Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently

Here are some things H has done:
Read the Conway book "Men in Midlife Crisis"
Read "Silent Sons"
Read "Crossing the Soul's River: A rite of passage for men"
Read "I don't want to talk about it... Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression"
Read articles about midlife crisis and transition
Joined meet up groups
Attended a meet up having to do with his political affiliation (Was not a social person)
Hung out at pubs/taverns to watch football (Was not a big football watcher)
Started inidvidual counseling (his own suggestion)
Started doing callligraphy
Joined a man site: art of manliness
Started dieting and exercise (self-control about dieting and exercise was one of his issues)
Started looking for books to read just for pleasure (classics... he was not a big reader)
Started talking to me about the frustration of being "stuck"
Went out with his friend, his friend's family, and his friend's girlfriend to a haunted/ghost walk

These are just a few... They do try... hopefully they will get there.
Summer

[offmyrocker]

My h just came home... within a week he had checked himself into a mental hospital... he took a very big first step. A week ago he felt suicidal... today he doesn't feel alone anymore... goes to group meetings... is accepting help and is trying a new healthier path... its just going to take time.

OMR

[offmyrocker]

I guess what im trying to say is that its a process of trial and error... they try new things... if they like it... they keep it... its over time that they become a new person... When they come back it isn't complete... its still in the desire, thinking and planning stage. they may have changed a few things... but not fully.... eventually they become a new person.

[Rollercoasterider]

Has anyone seen in their MLCer—them doing [anything] to change themselves? To be these new people?
Or have you seen them trying new things and behaving differently as Liminality says they do - testing it to see if they like this new person?

That is Rebirth, not Liminality. Rebirth is when they take the scattered fragments of Shadow and Self from Liminality and put them back together again. It is the process of reintegrating them, but not the completion. They need to test them. So they attempt Reintegration to test and then return to the birthing phase—withdraw—to revise. So what is happening is two reintegrations. The reintegration of Self that is Rebirth and the Reintegration into society.

That doesn’t mean they are not doing things in Liminality, but in Liminality those actions are often part of the discovery and decisions. They are still doing the research to help them sift through the broken pieces of Self and Shadow.

I have written answers to the questions in the initial post and they will come out tomorrow on the Blog. There have been a few goood topc threads recently and so I've got a few different posts in the works. I've pretty much completed this one, so it will probably come out first. But I will postpone this one and post the one about Divorce if I complete that before 8am tomorrow. But I think the divorce one may have a few parts...so this would be postponed for more than a day. We will see what I get done!

[Stillpraying]

Well I don't know if my sitch is different now or typical of MLC script.
I'm reading many threads but can't find one that follows the same path as yet.

H and OW split nearly 2 weeks ago.  I have no idea if they are back together or still apart.  He went away for the weekend 'on his own' to 'clear his head'.

I received a text last night telling me what he bought the kids for christmas yesterday.

H is still progressing and pushing through property settlement.  He wants the money ASAP.  No signs of wanting me back but last week he did start chatting more.  This week, back to same old detatched behaviour.  He can't file for divorce until April and will need no reason to file.

I don't know how or why the break up happened.  But it did seem quite sudden from my viewpoint which is not very clear.

[HeartsBlessing]

B, you're going to have to trust the MLC process, AND your Intuition for the moment.    Tell your daughter to distance herself from her dad's behavior; and you need to detach even further yourself.
Don't worry he's fine for the moment. 

His anger is truly at himself, but he's lashing out at others, and this is common; as they are very frustrated at times....don't take it personally; and again, your daughter needs to detach and distance herself.

Nothing you can do but watch him continue to spin in the wind. 

From HB
Quote

    Many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.

NO, HB, did NOT write the above..check below article for the BOLD; RCR wrote this, NOT me.   I don't like being given responsibility/credit for someone else's writings; this is the second time this  SAME statement has shown up attributed to me. 

I corrected it the first time it happened in another thread; and now, I'm correcting it again in hopefully a more thorough fashion.   Say what you will, but I would rather correct a misquoting when I catch it, than to let it go.

And I write corrections, even when I find a quoting that I KNOW is mine attributed to RCR; she uses ME for a source; which is perfectly OK.

Her views and mine don't always coincide; as we are two different people with two different points of view.  That's the beauty of being different.

I grabbed the entire article; and brought it here; you might wish to re-read what she talks about in this particular aspect.

Liminality
http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/mlc_overview_liminality.html

Liminality is Overt Depression, a time of facing the Shadows repressed during childhood. These may be beautiful traits stamped down by criticism or unacceptance. Or they may be those fears and angers. There is gold within the Shadows, embrace the gold and release what is not gold. But he must face all of it.

The Shadows strip the Ego away. It is a drowning under water and a fiery incineration. The great fear is for nothingness—complete annihilation, or that only those Shadows locked so tightly will be left—those things that were meant to remain hidden.

Indigo is the colour associated with the Third Eye. It is the Psychic Center and represents Inner Knowing, Inner Vision. It is a different way of seeing. It is the door to Madness—a door which is best left open. To fear it is to risk falling in without a guide or preparation.

Transition is Liminal
Depress: (Verb) To press or slow down, to decrease the activity of something.

A doctor uses a tongue depressor to press down the tongue; alcohol is a depressant, slowing down the central nervous system. Liminal Depression is an act of Depressing and to depress is to be in Deep Rest or Hibernation. Perhaps it can be better understood in the context of a transition that is not a crisis. Though Liminality may be frightening even when a transition is not a crisis, its depression is not the prison of hopeless despair that is Clinical Depression. It is a reflection and the person not in crisis, the person who though tentative and possibly frightened but who is not avoiding, sees their reflection wavering as water ripples around them and pauses for consideration. Though Liminality may be a time of unknowing, it is also a process of discovering and can be peacefully exciting. It is what people seek at the top of Everest, in nature hikes, runner's highs, temples and monasteries. It is the peak experience brought down to physicality.

Liminality is also risky. It is that time when you must ask your Self whether to continue a path of safety which no longer contains your life force or to give it all up, sacrifice or risk your job, the respect of your peers, your family…and leap. What must a person give up to climb Everest? Will the gains be worth the losses? Yes, joy is a choice, but that does not mean there are no regrets. Leaping is an act of courage.

Midlife crisis is a loss or absence of courage. That is not to say that a person in a midlife crisis has not been courageous in other aspects of life; soldiers are no less prone to midlife crisis than civilians. But it is an absence of courage in facing one's Self, in accepting feelings and emotions or integrating the past replete with either toxic or healthy shame and guilt. MLCers try to avoid the gift, the blessing offered in the journey.

Liminality is that space between, between time and between physicality; existence may not seem real or solid. Liminal experience may be through the standard five senses, but the other senses, those that we deny and do not understood are often enhanced. It is a different plane of awareness and experience.

Reality Bites…hard
Liminal Depression is a consequence of Replay behaviour. Replay spending results in bills and losses of things that are no longer affordable—not merely Replay luxuries such as the sports car, but also the loss of former possessions and savings (house, car, pension etc.). Financial losses can be significant, but more devastating is the loss of Self and potential, the loss of marriage, health, self-worth due to losses and guilt, and the loss of escape as Replay no longer produces a high. Everything leading up to Liminal Depression was preparation; the real work begins here.

Liminality is the means to reintegrating the Shadow fragments. Liminal Depression serves a purpose. There are times when we need to go down within ourselves for self-contemplation and growth. This may be a time of withdrawal into quiet solitude, but for not all people withdraw and there are those who will continue to manifest their depression through escalating anger; as the depression worsens, his behaviour may become more erratic and volatile.

Society views this depression as negative. This is not the disease of Clinical Depression; rather it is a dis-ease manifested as grief; the MLCer falls to rock bottom, the home of the Shadow. This is the place he has been avoiding through out this crisis and thus there is a likelihood that he will hang on the chasm’s ledge and try not to fall. The depression gets deeper with the Liminality phase when the old Self dies to create a new Self—Ego-Death. The MLCer has no Self; he is suspended in nothingness. It is no wonder they cycle by running back to Replay behaviour. The start and end of stages are transitional places where the MLCer exhibits characteristics familiar to both stages. The cycling gradually diminishes at a rate that is dependent upon the degree of wounding buried in his Shadow. Those with greater wounding have more to avoid.

Once a person is in Liminal Depression and has fallen to Rock Bottom his returns to Replay behaviour are without his metaphorical skin; he is like a molting crab and highly vulnerable; Liminal Depression is a more comfortable place in this condition. Liminality is the wine dark sea of Chaos, 40 days in the desert, time in the Wasteland. The Depression you will notice during this phase is more intense than any previous depression within the crisis.

Some MLCers have more awareness of their confusion than others. This recognition can create a petrification of fear like a deer in the headlights, in Replay the MLCer may recognize the vehicle, but in Liminal Depression, without Self-identity, he doesn’t know what he is running from. This is the scariest phase for many MLCers. Liminality forces him to face his shadow and he may have realized the devastation he has caused around him and fear there is no return. He may have no desire to return, but even so, the option to return was a security. This lack of Self-identity with the addition of a recognition of the devastation he has caused is understandably the time of the greatest hopelessness and despair.

When is Liminality?
What is a good indication that they are in or are approaching Liminality?
I don't know. There are many, but sometimes it means something else.
As Liminal Depression approaches, an MLCer may exhibit more anger and lash out more as he tries harder and harder to avoid being depressed.
Some, instead, may exhibit signs of more classic-overt depression.

General Indicators of Depression

• Shame and fear of admitting weakness
• Impatience, irritability, and restlessness or decreased activity
• Anger and hostility toward family, friends, and others
• Substance abuse
• Changes in sleep patterns
• Feelings of sadness
• Loss of interest or pleasure in activities
• Changes in weight or appetite
• Feelings of guilt, hopelessness, or worthlessness
• Inability to concentrate, remember things, or make decisions
• Constant fatigue or loss of energy
• Recurrent thoughts of suicide or death

Many of these are common to MLC in general—changes in interests, feelings of guilt, hopelessness, inability to concentrate, substance abuse, sleep changes, anger… This is because Replay is Covert Depression and Liminality is Overt Depression. So look for what changes. Many believe that the break up of the adulterous relationship brings on Liminality, this notion is false. I am not saying that it will not bring on Liminality, but many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.(emphasis, MINE, as HB did NOT write this, this is RCR's article)

MLCers find new friends and new activities. Sometimes these become permanent and beneficial life changes, but many of these changes are temporary and will not survive Replay. Is your MLCer still involved with the same new friends or in his Replay activities, or has he lost interest?

An MLCer may display some of these symptoms to his abandoned spouse and others to the alienator. He may try to hide the fact that he is depressed from his spouse because she may feel that since things are not going well in his new relationship, he will come home soon. Instead, he will show his anger and irritability to her. He may feel the challenge of trying to keep up energetically with an alienator and friends who are much younger and as he tries harder and yet fails to meet his own standards his shame and feelings of worthlessness may surface.

It is important to understand that what you see may not be what others are seeing. You are seeing the act he wants you to see and others are seeing a different act. Few if any are seeing him Be.

[Rollercoasterider]

From HB
Quote

    Many MLC adulterous relationships continue through depression; though the dynamics of the relationship will change.

NO, HB, did NOT write the above..check below article for the BOLD; RCR wrote this, NOT me.   I don't like being given responsibility/credit for someone else's writings; this is the second time this  SAME statement has shown up attributed to me.

Thanks. I wrote a whole bunch yesterday for my post and I wrote this additional long part that just went not so much off topic but too much off on a tangetrn. And in that portion I said this--I'd been meaning to put it here until it became a more formal post and I forgot this correction was in the middle of the part I am not using--at least not using now.