[Penelope2018]

His words mean nothing. Any apology he has made or will make is inauthentic IMO. I rarely speak to my xh anymore and he questions me about it every time that I do. I can clearly remember him saying something along the lines of "yeah, you don't want words, you want actions" whenever I said, "why would I answer your calls? do these conversations benefit me in some way?" In fact, if he was to start apologizing profusely all of a sudden, I would see it as him trying to get something out of me. A form of manipulation so he can use me in some way. That's how he and I think most of them operate.

[Standing Strong]

I could be wrong.... but I think the desire is for them to come out of MLC and then apologize and explain..... not before (as that does mean nothing.....sometimes).

SS, 1trouble mentioned hers said he made a terrible mistake, Bewildered that she got no words of regret since BD, I mentioned what Mr J said over the years. We are talking about our experiences with our MLCer.

I'm sure yes, most, or many, here would like the out of crisis MLCer to apologize and explain.

I don't want or need an explanation, I'm familiar with the explanations MLCers give - the explanations also tend to follow a scrip and be similar. I need practical amends.

I am not sure you understand what 13 years in Replay mean... and how much of a difference that makes from a MLCer who is, say a few months or  2 or 3 years into Replay. I also don't know if, as a newbie, you understand the difference between having a spouse whose BD was a few months ago and having a spouse/MLCer whose BD was over 10 years ago.

After 5, 7, 10, 13 or so years of a spouse who no longer is the same person I think many of us change a little bit the way we see things.

No doubt, and you're right.... I have no concept of what that's like..... no understanding. The trauma, the stress, the complete changes wrought...... yes, I have no clue about that. I can only imagine......
For me at this stage, looking into the possible future..... if mine spins off into oblivion..... do I want (at this stage) for her to return someday and say why...... yes, absolutely. Not for me to close my wound.... but to know she ended up ok. I think a fear I have is that she would be destroyed forever and never recover. To know at some point they made it..... a big yes to that... even if life has moved forward and there's no way home.

-SS

[Velika]

My now ex apologized to me. I maintain almost no contact (and it would be 100 percent no contact except we coparent), and it was by phone after our dog died, the only time I have talked to him in two years

It made no difference to my healing.

I noticed in the beginning that if my now ex showed me any small type of consideration or apparent compassion I would suddenly be able to feel empathy for myself. It has taken me a long time, but what is more healing than an apology from a MLCer is to feel true and genuine compassion for yourself and what you have gone through at the hands of a disordered and unwell person.

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse. This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition. No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Rather than wait for an apology that may not mean much, or come with the behavior you would like to see, I encourage everyone here to seek treatment for trauma (PTSD or CPTSD) and learn to experience deep self compassion. This is the way out!

Big hugs. 💛

[Anjae]

SS, Like us all, you know the pain, trauma and stess of BD. You saw your wife change into someone who do not recognise. Mid and old timers have all been where newbies are.

BD stress is huge and affects us in countless ways. Then, some of us have MLCers that vanish or semi-vanish, others have MLCers that never let go, and some, like you, have live-in MLCers. A MLCer that keeps causing more and more and more damages and/or is abusive in any way is quite a serious issue for the LBS health. Even one who just wallows is quite a serious health issue for the LBS.

I think a fear I have is that she would be destroyed forever and never recover.

It is normal to fear so. Most MLCers do not seem to end up destroyed by MLC. Not even those like Mr J and others that remain countless years in Replay.

I am not saying that I would prefer an abusive mlc'er, but all the confusion and contrition kept hope alive, and hampered my detachment.

From personal experience, and I am only speaking for myself, I don't know if it is easier to detach from an abusive MLCers that is also the king of clingers. I wasn't improving or being able to detach when Mr J was always after me, even if only by electronic means or with constant court cases. It was overwelming, insane and gave me no space to breath, recover or heal.

It also fed the voice in my head that said "It really WAS me, and our marriage, and it's not MLC at all"

It wasn't you nor your marriage. It was MLC.

Now I couldn’t give rats about them.  Give me action any day, preferably every single day!

Another who feels the same way. I am not saying, don't talk with your MLCer when he/she is again capable of being normal. Humans talk, but there is far more to communication that the spoken word. When my maternal grandmother could no longer speak I still manage to communicate with her and understand what she was saying with her eyes and facial expression (at that point she had lost all other mobility).

What I have learned through my LBS-hood is that words are cheap indeed.
Words without matching actions is dead.  Well, comatose, at least, until actions follow.

Words can be amazing. I love poetry and novels and those require words. But when it comes to MLC and some other real life situations, actions speak louder than words.

Words with nothing to back them up, if you ask me, better not even say them. I know MLCers will say lots of things they do not follow through with. It is part of their process.

I realized recently, I've reached the point where I am ok enough to want every one else in this tragedy to also come out healthy and whole.

I am all for everyone in this tragedy to come out of it OK and healed, and that includes every HS member and their spouse or ex-spouse as well as their kids if existing.

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse.

I don't think anyone tells a specific LBS their MLCer will come out of MLC and will feel remorse. What is often told, by myself included, is that, as a general rule, MLCers come out of MLC, tend to want to be back, but the LBS has moved on. Remorse is different than an apology.

This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition.

Maybe you missed the several mid and long timers that have reconnected and reconciled, including some with quite extreme MLCers? Why do you consider 1trouble's ex extreme? He is pretty tame by MLC patterns. At least compared with the likes of Mr J and others.

My cousin who had MLC, that I mentioned above, had a short, mild MLC. He deteriorating beyond recognition. He come out of it and is fine.

No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Don't we all know our spouse or ex-spouse is not well? If we think they were well we wouldn't had come here, would we? 

How do the players in this mess come out whole, when part of them think this is just how you do things?

Do you mean MLCer, LBS or both? In any case, I would say it depends of each person and I am not certain if it will be possible for many to be fully whole again.

[Velika]

I feel it is unfortunate that many people are told that eventually their spouse will come out of this at a certain stage and feel remorse.

I don't think anyone tells a specific LBS their MLCer will come out of MLC and will feel remorse. What is often told, by myself included, is that, as a general rule, MLCers come out of MLC, tend to want to be back, but the LBS has moved on. Remorse is different than an apology.

This may be if your spouse or ex is having a very mild crisis, but my observation from this forum is that the very extreme ones are either disoriented like 1T’s ex, or erratic and unreliable, often deteriorating beyond recognition.

Maybe you missed the several mid and long timers that have reconnected and reconciled, including some with quite extreme MLCers? Why do you consider 1trouble's ex extreme? He is pretty tame by MLC patterns. At least compared with the likes of Mr J and others.

My cousin who had MLC, that I mentioned above, had a short, mild MLC. He deteriorating beyond recognition. He come out of it and is fine.

No one wants to hear this, but in some ways it will validate what you suspect initially — your first instinct likely — that your spouse is not well.

Don't we all know our spouse or ex-spouse is not well? If we think they were well we wouldn't had come here, would we? 

* * * *

It is a fantasy to say that as a general rule most come out and want to come home. Maybe momentarily. Maybe they have private regrets at moments. But this is not recovery.

Many MLCers are filled with self pity, even before bomb drop. My ex still is. If I pay close attention, what sometimes seems like "regret," is either self indulgent or just simply childish self pity.

Some may actually come home but my suspicion is that many simply do so when things don't work out with OW or other things in their life. Many lavendar threads are hard to read because the authors are traumatized people who are now living closely with the disordered/unwell person who traumatized them.

Maybe in some cases this is financially important, or kids are involved, or some other reason. The LBS may just be a very loving person who is willing to accept that someone they loved has changed, and to live a life of agape love and devotion to marriage or their spouse. Maybe their spouse, post MLC, is changed but mellow and this is enough.

But this is not the same as someone recovering, nor do I think it is the norm. Becoming emotionally blunted or having large memory gaps is not the same as recovery, and in fact quite alarming and an indicator that someone is not well, or experienced some type of neurological change.

[FIRETRUCK]

My MLCer has apologised numerous times over the years..always using 'broad strokes' .
As the years dragged on (I think its been close to 7 or more) I would see some firm 'actions' too and awareness of the untold damage and hurt he caused - Just enough for me to be grateful that I was no longer being demonised/financially/emotionally abused by him. 
I'm sure he is sorry...but I suspect it is still a selfish regret. Our divorce was final last month.
I think those that are in close contact with their MLCer may live to see the day when the 4 'A's are obvious and will realise that accountability in particular will be key in moving forward. But for all of us not until our former spouses unfunk themselves.
Apologies = cold comfort.
Just my 2 cents.
Firetruck

[Treasur]

Such an interesting discussion thread....

The 4 A's...we seem to feel instinctively that some or all of these are necessary to heal and be an emotionally healthy human after some kind of life-altering change or crisis?
Acknowledgement - does that mean validation?
Accountability - not being a victim or blaming others so we can be in charge of our own lives?
Acceptance - seeing and speaking the truth and dealing with reality as it is now?
Apology - having empathy or feeling remorse?
I guess some of us might define these things differently? Are there any missing A's? Idk. And are all of the A's of equal weight? Idk.

Seems to me too - which I think is shown in the discussion so far - that if being a healthy human is the outcome, then the discussion has three aspects.
Which of the 4 A's WE need to DO to be healthy ourselves?
Which of them we believe our MLCer needs to DO to be healthy?
(Assuming that some kind of thinking/feeling shift is necessary for either one before any kind of DO is possible.)
And I suppose if there is any interaction betweeen our 4 A's and their 4 A's? If we need to receive things from them or indeed they from us for any kind of healing?

Not sure I have any answers lol but I look forward to learning from the different perspectives.

[Limboland2018]

My mlcer told me none of this was my fault but then lists off what was wrong with our marriage (would have been nice for him to tell me before so we could sort it out) He did apologize in his way and told me he wanted to try to be a family again.  He kicked his woman out. Gave me money and paid the cc off. He’s gone into a treatment facility for depression and addiction as he said he’s been depressed for 5 years. Every day his self talk is “I hate myself. I hate my life”. Then I found out that he went out with ow the weekend prior to checking into the clinic. he allowed her to upload a picture of them together to his WhatsApp profile. He blocked me so I wouldn’t see it. He told me he thought she was been nice and that he didn’t want to hurt me so he blocked me (goodness talk about a crap excuse!) So all the apologies and his previous acts of goodwill were nullified. He gave me excuses for why he allowed the picture but his words are empty.  Having an apology means nothing. Actions are the key but even then,  mlcers minds are so broken it’s hard to trust.

[Keep believing]

Someone mentioned something about the kids thinking this is normal. This is what i despise. The kids know no difference in a divorce such as ours. How can you make a person see that our d to these mlcers is completely abnormal?

[Not Applicable]

I have a question. When you all talk about "actions" being needed, what exactly are you talking about?

I always find it strange that people say that actions are more important than words and that words are meaningless. My H is pretty good about actions, and is fairly responsible, and seems to take pride in that, but the words? Very very rare and not sufficient at all. I do not see that he is capable of words at the moment. Perhaps it is simply because he's not someone who fakes things so he simply can't just say some throwaway words to placate me. I can't imagine he will say them until he is ready to own them and stand by them, if that makes sense. And he is not there yet. So for me, the barometer is the words, not the actions.