[rubyhearted]

Wow is it good to be back to such interesting discussions. It was important for me to let go for a bit to find my own footing outside of MLC. The TNG brought me back but in a very different space.

I am seeing things through a different lens after a lot of tears, false dreams, therapy, and owning my own FOO issues. I blame his MLC for his stuff. That does not excuse my reactions. Although, with him in Monster it brought out the worst in me. That did not drive him away, nor did it hasten the inevitable. Only that I wish I had handled things differently. I wish that I had simply found this forum and turned my back rather than waiting for him to kick me to the curb.

Which brings me to this thread. H came to me a week ago with the 4As. Or so he thought and so did I. In considering the three days that we talked I realized that he is still in the tunnel. He is seeing a therapist of his own and dealing with undiagnosed ADHD from childhood. But in really listening what I did not hear was honest accountability. It was all about him and how he is being victimized now. His choices are his choices and he cannot see that.

In reading this entire thread and really digging deep over the past few days I have realized that the words are less important to me. What I really need is closure. I am not sure that I will get that after so much time together. I can walk away, head held high, but is that closure? Probably not. The words do not help. The fact that we are years from BD and no contact or whatever situation we are in it is all the same. We cannot get closure because there is too much love remaining. How do you close that door? Even if we remarry how do we close the door once and for all? We cannot purge our minds of what was no matter how we try. And I have tried. I have tried reframing, turning the other way (literally) or crying, writing, being here.

GtG. I have to pick up one of my kids from work. More on this later. Hugs!

[barbiedoll]

I had been told that his actions were enough to show me how sorry he was and that I had to stop needing an apology as we were now reconnecting.   

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WTF?  If this was ever said to me , I am certain spit and fire would come out my eyes! HOW DARE SOMEONE?. Honestly, I just cannot even imagine. I deserve, I am entitled to and I expect a profound, meaningful and sincere apology . More than once. I want to feel and see and be convinced that there is deep understanding and remorse for what has happened to me and my daughters. I want my daughters to receive an apology .  I want to believe there is some emotional depth and intelligence and recognition of the trauma inflicted on people you claim to love. Words matter. Sharing your emotions, intentions, sorrow and regret with words matter .

I want his apology to show his accountabilty and acceptance of what he has done to hurt me and all it needs be is " I'm sorry that I hurt you"    then his actions would have genuine substance.   I discussed this with my sister and she said, as did Barbie " You need to hear those words so that you can complete your healing and move forward"   

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I agree 100%. I needed "words" before I would EVER even risk allowing him back into our home, taking a chance on him or waiting around to see what he will "do". He had ALOT of talking and 'splaining to do before his wardrobe hung back up in the closet . Why is this hard to understand?  Do some LBS actually allow their spouses to return in silence?   He just walks back in and nothing is said??  For real   . I understand there is a huge difference ( in my opinion) between MLC's that leave and those that stay home. My husband left . The locks were changed . His sh%t was packed in the garage. The marriage was over . ….my choice at that point. He could NEVER return without convincing me he was worth the risk ...no easy task. Now his actions better back up his words 200%.

tricky bit is working out how/if you can meet that need if your MLC spouse won't and what the consequences are for the
 kind of relationship you are prepared to have with them if they don't.

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There will be no relationship , no reconnecting ....nothing. Of that I am 100% confident.

The bare minimum it should give us I think is the right to say loudly this is how I feel and this is what I need from you. If you can't or won't listen to me or try to do that, I will accept that bc I can't force you and I don't want to force anyone to treat me with respect or empathy....but it will affect how I see you and how much I am prepared to invest in you and what else I do to meet my own needs.

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I guess it kinda makes me think of "you teach someone how to treat you ".  If my husband "can't  /  won't " ....I simply will NOT accept that . He would not be back in this house. Truth.

tc....but if you hurt me and never own that bc it is too 'hard', then why would I have any confidence that you won't just do it again the next time you feel like it?

Exactly right ! . I agree.

Or that my judgment is that any MLCer who is unwilling or unable to do these things with both words and actions - including my xh - continues to be far from a healthy healed adult so they will have to live with the cost of that too. That is sad to me, not what I would have wanted for either of us, but seems an inevitable bit of sowing and reaping.

This makes sense to me .  "unwilling or unable " is interesting. A therapist told us that some people need to be taught how to genuineley  apologize, it does not come naturally.  He willingly participated in being "coached" by the therapist thru an apology and how to exxpress his pain for what he had done. Had he refused ?  Sowing and reaping...as they say .

If they can't or won't do any of the 4As or understand why you need them, it is just more Me Me Me imho.

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Absolutely !  I could not agree more . And I watched for this . If it is evident that it is still all about them...not about "us" or family...or ME , I do not want him. Period. And he was fully aware of every thought that I had .

Where I can see a potential problem between LBS and MLCer is when the LBS needs one thing (ot things), but the MLCer is not able to do it. Like with Barbie and Song that a need a verbal "I'm sorry I hurt you", but their husband don't seem to be capable of.

My husband has said he is sorry many many times, verbally and in writing . ( I wrote that in my last post) . It took me a long time to believe him, to "feel" any emotion, to have it hit my heart. He has repeatedly apologized and owned the pain he created. My lack of trust and utter rage could not absorb it and find meaning in it . I cannot speck for Song but she has clearly stated her issue.

but if an MLCer won't challenge their emotional comfort zone to do any of these 4As, why should they (or others, or us) expect or assume that we will continue to challenge our own emotional comfort zone to pay those costs? And often without even that being acknowledged or apparently appreciated.

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Firetruck...this is just so brilliant! I love this .  Indeed, the cost to be paid will not be by me. I have paid dearly in so many ways. Not by me. If he truly , with sorrow and regret , genuinely wants his marriage , he has to prove that . No easy task considering all trust in him is gone. It will take repeated conversations ( excruciating suck your soul out conversations), "learning" how to do these things, understanding what they mean and why, putting someone else ahead of yourself , taking emotional risks , sitting in extremely uncomfortable emotional places, etc etc . If he cannot or will not, and thinks this will be acceptable...the cost will be his .

I NEVER once said actions take a back seat or are less important . If his actions ( repeated over and over and over) do not match his words ... all is over. My husband has not had an easy time "fixing" his life, his marriage, his daughters. I believe I worked extremely hard for atleast 2 years subconsciously pushing pushing and shoving him away...testing him, hating him, raging at him and shaming him. Somehow, he withstood every sh*t-scenario you can ever imagine and is still here . He says he is not going anywhere ever again....I suspiciously believe him.

[Songanddance]

I understand there is a huge difference ( in my opinion) between MLC's that leave and those that stay home. My husband left . The locks were changed . His sh%t was packed in the garage. The marriage was over . ….my choice at that point.

As you know my H never left.  I was not given the choice to pack his bags or allow him back in.  That's tough and so yes I think he believes that if he just behaves well and is considerate I will think he wants back in and I will accept it.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad of the actions and things he has done on the house - he didn't need or have to do them but when in hindsight it has become clear that the behaviour/ or job/action always precipitates a potentially selfish follow up that suits only him. then I'm not convinced that our marriage means anything to him. It really is still all about him.

For example - he refurbished the kitchen (we both did) but he paid for it. It was essential that it was done as for 13 of the last 15 years the damp on the walls was horrendous making all crockery, cutlery etc mouldy and the smell behind some cupboards was uurgh! So he ripped it out, rebuilt the walls, inside and out and produced a new shiny kitchen which is just lovely.  However that was a year ago and since then he's taken himself to the states, he's bought another newer car, he's been on adventures with other people and all without telling me in advance... 
These are not the actions of a man in remorse and wanting a marriage- these are the actions of a guilty person trying to avoid the truth of what he has done. These are the actions of a child who wants to be rewarded for good behaviour so that they can play up again in future. 

[Anjae]

I think there may be some confusion here regarding not needing words, but actions.

I don't have a returning MLCer nor am I planning to reconciled. Therefore, currently, words aren't of much, if any, need to me.

Were Mr J to want back and I to accept it, there may be the need for some words. However, at this point, less than a month to 13 years since he left, there aren't many, if any, words that would be particularly useful.

What is he going to say? That he is sorry. I'm certain his out of Replay self will be.

There is a world of difference in everything between a MLCer that has been away for 6 months like your husband did Barbie, and one that has been away for years, at times a decade or more, including years on end living with OW/OM.

[barbiedoll]

Anjae you are perfectly correct

There is a world of difference in everything between a MLCer that has been away for 6 months like your husband did Barbie, and one that has been away for years, at times a decade or more, including years on end living with OW/OM.

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If my husband had stayed away 8, 10, 12 or 13 years....there would be NOTHING he could say that I would ever want to hear. Period. We would be almost strangers . I would have no reason ( in my opinion) to listen, expect or even want anything from him. Too much time has passed indeed for any words to "fix" anything.

Song

Your life and mine are similar in many ways ...right down to the shiny new kitchen (which is gorgeous by the way ). So is my new laundry room and deck and sewing room. My husband has "actions" down to a brilliant fine art...always has. Actions are his way of saying that he cares and loves me . And I adore that quality and all of the lovely things he "does"....who would not like that ? . I think he was gobsmacked to have to face the fact that this will never be enough in this part of our marriage. I am no longer going to be his "interpretor" …. I am unable/unwilling to translate his actions ( bought me a new car) into silent words ( this must mean he loves me ). Keep your new car and learn to talk to me . Learn to share, be vulnerable, tell me how you feel, when you are unhappy, when you are stressed etc etc . I think there has been lots of that in my marriage and look what can happen. He was "unhappy, depressed, stressed " and NEVER SAID A WORD. I will never put myself in that corner again...

The difference between you and me Song ...and I mean this in the most respectful way....is I would never remain silent if my husband "went to the states, bought a car or went away on adventures "  all WITHOUT TELLING ME??.  Never again will I allow disrespect from my husband and that is precisely what that is . That is the actions of a married man acting single. I would ( and have) called my husband out on any behavior that disregards me …. I guess those are "triggers" when you have been abandoned ...it felt absolute disregard, disrespect, pure extreme selfishness . They are in fact triggers, now that I see it in writing. The fact is ...for me …. I didn't want the marriage initially so I just was not willing to be quiet period . Bottom line Song...I was a nasty enraged bit$ch with no ability to be quiet . You seem patient, logical, far more self-control (FAR!) and practical..things I am working on for myself. I am high-strung, extremely reactive, black and white thinker, masterfully verbal and take no hostages ( especially if triggered ).  As a result, I apologize a lot, take back words I said and spend time cleaning up the messes I make. There is no "perfect" way ...BUT, for me , I will not be disrespected, silent or disregarded . Now if I could deliver that in a calm , clear, low volume voice as many times as required....I would have reached 1 of my goals. !

[Anjae]

Anjae you are perfectly correct
....

If my husband had stayed away 8, 10, 12 or 13 years....there would be NOTHING he could say that I would ever want to hear. Period. We would be almost strangers . I would have no reason ( in my opinion) to listen, expect or even want anything from him. Too much time has passed indeed for any words to "fix" anything.

Thank you, Barbie.

It really is very different and our situations do not compare for the mentioned reasons.

Many here have MLCers that are gone for years. Things truly are on another level and that is why, the many years away, often living, if not married, to OW/OM, I think there are so few reconciliations.

For many Replay takes years and years, life goes on, LBS often finds a new person, MLCer and LBS are almost strangers. Even if they aren't, it is super difficult.

It is already very difficult with a live-in MLCer or one that has only been gone for a while. The longer the MLCer is away, the difficult everything - maybe aside for the need of words - will be reconnection/reconciliation wise for most of us.

[Treasur]

Never been too fond of that 'LBS has the final choice' saying bc it never felt like reality to me.

But I do think that to heal on your own from something so life-altering and painful, or with not much input from a spouse, the LBS often needs to find a way to tackle some of these 4As. Doing that may draw us to a point when we can simply no longer bridge the gap between their current reality and our own in a reconnection situation. What they can offer is just no longer enough for who we have chosen to become.

[Songanddance]

and I mean this in the most respectful way....is I would never remain silent if my husband "went to the states, bought a car or went away on adventures "  all WITHOUT TELLING ME??.  Never again will I allow disrespect from my husband and that is precisely what that is . That is the actions of a married man acting single

Agree -but please note that in my post above, I didn't report what I said to him, neither did I say that I accepted it. 
I  told him re the new car that I didn't appreciate him doing this without letting me know, but it is his company money and it is for tax purposes ( In fact, as I reflect back, H's MO has always been to buy things for himself or family members without consultation or reference to me but only with his money.   
For most of our married life, I was earning more than H and so it was never an issue and he never defaulted (not even in the height of MLC) on making sure he paid his share of the bills into our joint account. Even when I quit work 3yrs ago due to intense stress, he paid for everything for the first year and now I am working a little, he pays over 80% of the household bills. He has also supported  me in setting out my own businesses.

When I am truly angry, I go quiet and withdrawn and usually stare him out,and then when I find the words, say them and walk away.  I have done this quite a bit recently and the difference now is that instead of monster, I have had a quiet acknowledgement and then endless explanations, like a child would to justify his actions. I just walk away.

Do not think that I am happy with him not telling me,  but I am able to show my anger and displeasure in other ways and he knows.

But as I said above he is still cooking and I do not believe that an apology and sincere wish to work on the marriage is forthcoming any time soon. So, at this moment in time, being overtly angry with him for his purchases and trips is almost pointless waste of my energy so I keep any comments simple, clear and move forward.

[OffRoad]

S&D, it sounds like you use for your H my same go to for most things. Examples: "That was inappropriate.", "I realize that you used company money for the car, however what you do affects me and I would appreciate it if you would discuss these things with me before purchasing." "It hurts my feelings when you go off on a trip without letting me know."

I say what the issue is without anger, and indicate how it affects me. Then I can know from the response if the person intended to be a jerk, knew he was being a jerk and tried to "hide" it, or was completely clueless and stuck in their own world. (I find a lot of completely clueless people)

If you dont mind my asking, how does that works with your H? Does he then sometimes remember to include you in, or still does what he wants?

[barbiedoll]

I do agree that clearly calmly stating the issue and the way it affairs us is the best approach. Daily I work on this .  I still struggle with entente frustration and reactivity .. it has caused further problems.  My work is not done. With me.