[AlvinTheMaker]

Okay, so I've got quite a big problem.   And I think is affecting how I interact with my MLCr, as well every person in mylife.  And I basically would like some suggestions of "better than average" books,  YouTube videos, whatever resources that could give me a proper kickstart in dealing with this as efficiently as possible.

The realization:  I've come to conclusion that I suck at non-verbal communication.  Especially receiving (reading body language of others), but also signaling (what I do with my body, and how it occasionally clashes with what I say).

This in itself is hardly news for me.  Imagine Sheldon from Big Bang and you likely have got a good image of myself and how I behave.  In the past I've just accepted is part of my "geeky" self- image. But maybe for the first time in my life I'm acknowledging the consequence this has had on my life (and to my marriage/relationship, and to my kids).  What looks funny in tv-show is not funny in real world. 

So what my problems looks like... 

I have very hard time tellling when someone is masking their true emotion.
(doh, I guess I would have noted something wrong with my MLCr earlier if I was good at this...G18 told she saw it coming for at least a year before)

I have very hard time telling when someone says one thing but means another.

I have very hard time telling when someone else wants something (say enter or leave social situation) unless they say so.

I have hard time telling when someone is feeling awkward or uncomfortable (especially if they try to mask it) unless they so 


And I've come to realize that if I'm bad in reading other people's body language,  it is more than likely that the message that I am sending out with my body likely clashes with what comes out of my mouth.  So I say "love" but it might seem like "dislike" - which is of course not good.

For example I know that I don't smile much (except internally) and as such most people (especially if they don't know me) will likely consider me either neutral or negative despite I'm somewhat upbeat.   And a Youtube video that I watched said that when people talk "deep" with their eyes closed it usually means they are hiding something (guilty: I do this when I'm afraid that I get swept by strong emotional reaction like bursting into tears).

 I realize that this all is largely "learned model" from my FOO: both my parents and grandparents lived through WW2, so they have gone through hell (very few things were ever said/talked).  Mix up rural life/background and low-education level with above, and you pretty well get how I was raised. Lots of love, lots of "common sense" (especially survival wise), but very little what could be considered "emotional education"... I realize/acknowledge all of these things can be learned even as adult.  It just takes a lot of practice and repeats to become natural. So another long road ahead of me.

So if you got good experiences of useful books, videos whatever regarding "non-verbal" communication, I'm more than happy to take suggestions.

And yes... All in all I'm sligtly firetrucked off of to my parents as well as myself for letting this happen.  But that's the price of being "emotionally dump/uneducated"... So in that sense BD is the best thing that ever happened to me.  I cannot fix my past, but I change my future - and possibly make something up for my kids (and definitely change the life of my grandkids some day). This cycle will end with me.

[1phoenix]

Oh Alvin,

Maybe starting to get in touch with yourself will bring about the answers you seek?  To me each person is different in the way they express themselves.  From what you wrote, and my perspective, could it be that you need to take down your wall?   Once your wall is down, and you can see how you react to different things and how you fell about things, you may be able to see it easy in others?

It will be interesting to follow to see if there is a book on learning non-verbal. 

Just 2 worthless cents of a flighty opinion

[AlvinTheMaker]

Oh it's not a wall....it's mostly a learned model...or maybe it is a wall to that sense that it is different from what many have.

My FOO roots from world where man's word is his measure,  where things are said straight and blunt, where body language equals few postures where each huff, puff, grumph etc has a specific meaning.  That's the world I'm coming from.  Rural life: harsh, wild and beautiful.

[Treasur]

Not my area of expertise, but I wonder if it would be something to refine more by doing actually. Sit in a cafe and people watch and maybe make up some stories in your mind about those people based on what you see. Do you have any good friends or work colleagues you could ask for feedback? Sometimes videoing yourself, say in a meeting or a conversation, can be quite illuminating bc how we feel inside about how we appear to others is not always accurate.

[1phoenix]

If you think it is a geographical ‘thing’, maybe read Emily Post (I know so old school) online for her guidance on how to handle situation?   It will definitely bring a different perspective on how to handle situations.   

[AlvinTheMaker]

Treasur - going to coffeehouse etc.suggestion great. I thought I'd watch some reality TV shows, but real life is even better. And I get out of house, lol.

I did one body language online test https://testyourself.psychtests.com/testid/3764 - scored 92/100, making me a body language expert. Lol.... I think my problem is not so much with facial expressions/cues, but spotting when people try to mask their true emotions.  For example I read that playing with ones hair  usually is a kind kind of self-soothing reaction and usually relates to stress or feeling uncomfortable. And I've always considered it as something "lovely" W does. Lol. Maybe it shows how little I really know on body language.

I also took some selfies and fed them into facial recognition system (by Microsoft). It seems my facial expressions are pretty much what one would expect from normal person. My neutral expression is  96.2% neutral, 3.3% sad, rest being mixture of anger and happiness. My happy face is 60% happiness, 25% neutral, 14% sad, rest being anger, surprise etc. My thinking face  (that W called sour grapes) is 75% neutral,25% sad. And my sad face looks really sad (52% sad,48% neutral)... So no problem with facial expressions I think.

And yep, will check Emily Post too.... This is all new territory for me. 

I did watch some videos from YouTube. It's kind of shocking to understsnd that by default most men register only one third of body cues compared to women. And that most of communication is non-verbal....this feels like all new gamefield opening up. Cannot even imagine what I'll learn of myself (or my MLCr, lol).

[Songanddance]

I'm not an expert as such. However after 40+ years as a performer you learn how to analyse roles in utter scrutiny and match the body language to the words to create an holistic character.

First of all -instead of trying to look at details such as eyes etc or nuances of fingers - look at the basics of open and closed body language.

Open and closed body language. 
Closed is a face that may be frowning or looking- intense eye contact can be evident but not always sustained and often looks to the left; the arms, legs and stance are the biggest clue, If hands are folded tightly, fingers interlaced, arms crossed body or leges crossed or cannot root themselves  and fidgets or switches legs or arms over.
Fidgeting is also a sign of closed body language.

Open is a face that is looking forward, eyes are relaxed - not necessarily smiley face but eye contact can be sustained during much of a conversation and often head tilted just fractionally to one side. There is a sense of stillness and any movement or gesture does not close the arms. legs, hands or feet. 

I would send my students or actors out to observe which is something Treasur suggested. Make it a bit of  game to try and watch how people's body language switches and changes in all kinds of environments from the supermarket to a cafe to a train station.  You start to pick up clues. Watch especially young children with their parents and observe how children move from open to closed and back again really quickly but observe how often parents body language matches or contradicts their children.

I can offer more precise comments later if you wish but start with that - you will find it fascinating and begin to realise that you probably read more than you thought.

[AlvinTheMaker]

Thanks S&D... I've been having very fun weekend with this.  Reading, watching, observing (myself and other people).

So I've basically come up with  "simplified good vs bad body language" guide for myself.    Likely the terms I'm using here all very "unprofessional", but at least this is how I get them.   And like you hunched, I knew more than I thought.  I just never "realized" how much my subconscious had truly picked up of all this.

Bad:
- sagging posture (especially shoulders and chest)
- too wide postures (mainly expressing dominance)
- crossed/interlaced ankles, legs, feet, arms, fingers
- pointing fingers or putting hands into fist
- looking anywhere else than straight to other person (showing submission, contempt etc)
- covering mouth, eyes or hands/fingers (for example putting hands in pocket or keeping eyes closed when telling something )
- movement, especially fast movements, or nervous movement (rocking, flimsing, looking at watch/phone, picking up bag from floor etc)
- leaning away from other
- physical tension (looking like you are about to sprung/bounce away)
- not-smiling (even neutral can be bad, same with fake smile)
- keeping fingers busy (playing with hair, playing with phone, drumming, scratching etc)
- standing when other person sits (or vice versa)

Good:
- straight posture (especially shoulders and chest)
- open ankles, legs, feet, arms, fingers
- looking straight / onwards
- genuine smile
- moving slow or being still - the  more calm the better
- keeping mouth, eys and hands/fingers visible and open
- leaning towards another
- mirroring body movement of other (especially positive ones)
- light touching of other (to empower empathy etc)

And I've already read a bit about micro expressions (like that with genuine smile you get the crows feet, people who lie try to cover their mouth/face etc).

On the upside I've done a lot more positives than I've realized.   Possibly my biggest sins are :
1) not showing my smile often and
2) crossed legs/feet/ankles (never even thought this could mean anything as people do this a lot - I knew crossed arms was "bad")
3) sending out conflicting verbal and non-verbal message (or mostly the issue was that my verbal message was not telling my entire line of thinking)

Or like I wrote on my own story:

I've started to work out non-verbal communication ( see https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11112.0 ).  I know (or think) it's a weak spot for me.  Maybe it's not as weak as I feared in the beginning, but still something I think I could improve significantly. I started by reading few dozen articles, then I watched few dozen YouTube videos, and I've now moved into observing my own behaviour as well as others. It's proving both useful and interesting.

I've noted few "traits" I have never understood to carry such weight; heck I have not even understood them meaning anything...    For example I have always liked to sit down a lot using "seated figure four"  - which is is said to be both defensive and aggressive (similar to war). Ouch, now that I know the meaning of it, I definitely don't want to use it anymore.  Regardless how comfortable it feels (especially when holding a laptop) it's gotta go. I really don't want to message "war" to anyone....  Or that when W is playing with her hair, I have thought of it as "cute" thing she does - but in reality it's one way to keep fingers busy, to deal with anxiety or feeling uncomfortable with situation. So there is lots to learn, and lots to change/dig deeper.  On the positive side, I've also done lots of right things as well.

Another major realization is I've remembered (or understood) one specific type of situation where I have sent mixed messages to my W.  That is when we have been at some social situation, and I've been ready to exit well before her. My standard response  has been to either to try to remain silent and endure (or so I've thought), or to say "no rush" if she asks. In reality my body language has been screaming "I want to go now, please".LOL.  I've given this some thought and I realize it's a kind of submissive pattern on my part. When it comes to social situations, I let her do the shots (the same way she allows me to do shots with some other things). It's not that I stay on social situations because I have to, but because I value her (and her happiness) more than my own temporary discomfort.  But I think I could/should work out some kind of "smarter" verbal response that acknowledges what I feel and aligns my verbal and non-verbal message (i.e. "I would like to exit, but because of you I am more than happy to endure some discomfort and stay as long as you like").

All in all this is very interesting, and might even say fun.  The fact that I nowadays know what most feelings feel in my body has helped a lot in understanding the logic behind body language, but I've never really put much of it use in when looking at others (at least conciously).  Now I kind of await seeing how well these two types of communcation match when looking at others.  So some fun times ahead for me I think.

[Couragedearheart]

Alvin,

It’s funny but I am so frustrated with my H for this reason...so I looked into it.  If your words and actions don’t match....it’s because of 2 reasons....A) you are not in touch with yourself and are subconsciously reacting to your true feelings about a situation place or subject, or B) you are not being authentic with yourself and others about how you feel.

70% of communication is nonverbal: body language.  So either you aren’t paying attention to yourself and what your body is trying to tell you about your feelings on something or you are trying to people please.....

The part that drives me crazy about it.....it makes it difficult to trust....either your lying to me, or your lying to yourself. 

Now I realize I have been doing a bit of the same....why...because me being me isn’t acceptable for the situation....who else am I meant to be?
Because I don’t want the confrontation that goes along with my truth?
Because I’m putting myself and my feelings second?
Or is it that I think I can control or affect the outcome of a situation through my words or actions?

Am I trying to “keep the peace” and control other people’s emotions by behaving in a certain way?
Or am I acting out my barriers and fears on others...do I distrust so therefore I take a guarded stance?  Am I just constantly bracing to be hurt again?  Or do I not trust myself that my genuine response and feeling and instincts in a particular situation are mine, are allowed and are acceptable.

I am me. I can act and do, and say and talk however I feel. And yet I find myself constantly thinking of others or trying to control the situation with my words or body language or actions. I’m still fixing instead of living.

[Songanddance]

And yet I find myself constantly thinking of others or trying to control the situation with my words or body language or actions. I’m still fixing instead of living.

And that is normal Courage - you are still only months away from BD - be kind to yourself.  There will be a lot of self fixing as you learn to live.