[Not Applicable]

I didn't miss the context. I just thought the description could be applied to other situations as well. And if you re-read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about current MLCers either, but LBSes displaying covert narcissist tendencies themselves. There just seems to be a disturbing trend in the forum the last few months of newbie members who think they can manipulate their spouses through and out of their MLCs to their own benefit.

[Nerissa]

I didn't miss the context. I just thought the description could be applied to other situations as well. And if you re-read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about current MLCers either, but LBSes displaying covert narcissist tendencies themselves. There just seems to be a disturbing trend in the forum the last few months of newbie members who think they can manipulate their spouses through and out of their MLCs to their own benefit.

It’s possible some lbs have narcissistic tendencies because:

A) we all have some narcissism.  We are born with it.  It turns into more outward focused thinking as we successfully grow up.
B) living with those who have more than average narcissism can make a spouse  demonstrate some as can life stressors.

I think you are confusing narcissism with a hyper activated attachment system.  Many of us lbs have an anxious attachment style.  We may always have tended toward this or we are thrown into it by the loss of our main attachment figure.  The obsessive thinking, inability to believe our circumstances and our overwhelming need to have this person back is all typical of this style.

In our dilemma we try anything to restore the relationship and this our sense of security.  We are not healthy and therefore some of our behaviours turn unhealthy - perhaps unhealthy for ourselves and others.  These strategies may be manipulative and if strong enough may seem narcissistic.  It’s all very normal, if not optimal.  In any case, it doesn’t mean we are narcissists.  We are just desperately distressed and it’s hard to feel empathy for the other person when we are in distress so our actions can seem selfish even.  I doubt this is the way most of us behave when circumstances feel safe.

[Thunder]

I don't see that trend on the forum, NYM.

[Nerissa]

I don't see that trend on the forum, NYM.

I don’t think so either  - seems like a very unempathetic and rigid response to those new people in acute distress and grief. 

[MyBrainIsBroken]

In our dilemma we try anything to restore the relationship and this our sense of security.  We are not healthy and therefore some of our behaviours turn unhealthy - perhaps unhealthy for ourselves and others.  These strategies may be manipulative and if strong enough may seem narcissistic.  It’s all very normal, if not optimal.  In any case, it doesn’t mean we are narcissists.  We are just desperately distressed and it’s hard to feel empathy for the other person when we are in distress so our actions can seem selfish even.  I doubt this is the way most of us behave when circumstances feel safe.

Amazing! This quote, which is meant to apply to LBSes, is also a pretty good description of most MLCers and, IMHO, fits most MLCers much better than the label "covert narcissist". What a great description of MLC and explanation of MLC behavior!

BTW, so there's no confusion, I believe the relationship referred to in the first sentence is not the relationship with the LBS or even with the alienator, but instead it's the relationship with the person who damaged the MLCer when they were young.

[Nerissa]

BTW, so there's no confusion, I believe the relationship referred to in the first sentence is not the relationship with the LBS or even with the alienator, but instead it's the relationship with the person who damaged the MLCer when they were young

Well I was referring directly to the marriage, but since attachment theory (and psychoanalytic theory) says that romantic relationships and our behaviours within them are a continuance of our relationship with , primarily our mothers and later, other important attachment figures, then yes, the relationship is that which we have with our mother.

Actually I have a friend who leads a mental
Health  team in the public sector who says that pretty
Much every person referred to her has problems which, at their root, are issues of attachment.  This will apply to some degree to us, the lbs as well as to the mlc spouse, since it is likely that the attachment dynamic between us has gone off balance.

(She is referring to general
Life problems not relationship therapy
-
But that is how fundamental
Our attachment style is)

[Nerissa]

As my dear departed mil said wryly,  back when we all thought H’s affair was a flash in the pan and she hadn’t thought to examine her family  deeply : “If it’s not one thing, it’s your mother”
“

[Songanddance]

The relationship issue with the mother would certainly relate to my H.
His mother had long term alzheimers and H withdrew more and more from her (he couldn't cope or bear or was afraid to see the shadow she was becoming) - leaving me to the later visits etc...

When she died his words were " Not Yet! - oh no not yet!"
Struck me as odd but little did I know then that OW was on the scene and BD was 3 weeks away.   He still 7 years on cannot cope with talking about his mother - he shuts down and switches off.

This connection with his mum also resonates in that H's dad died suddenly at age 56 leaving H's mum very broke  because she wasn't earning enough; she had to work overtime for the next 10 years until retirement. H had always said he would go at the same age as his dad leaving me the way his dad left his mum.    The difference for us was that I was working a great job, very well paid and paying for most of the bills anyway.   
7 years on - H is still here  Ta Dah!

[Velika]

This is such an important thread and topic and I think also helps us contextualize what we are seeing. It is no coincidence that our former spouses' behavior is being described on forums all over the internet!

For everyone on this thread, I really recommend to everyone here Shahida Arabi's books on narcissism. They helped me so much to understand the behavior patterns but also offer a genuine roadmap to healing and even post-recovery. Really smart, articulate, insightful, at times unconventional, yet also warm and compassionate. She also has free articles and materials online.

I believe that MLC is related to the narcissism epidemic and that both are biology based. I think the connections we often make to childhood is just same hereditary mental illness, spectrum disorder, or susceptibility. I think this explains why our spouses often reject their parents' behavior only to copy it to the letter as we look on incredulously, even lacking the basic self awareness that they are repeating it.

My ex had a series of unusual fevers leading up to this, along with ongoing migraines. I talked to a neurologist at one point and she said these were a huge red flag. He has changes to his physiology that cannot be explained simply by psychology. Even our "full moon alerts" are a big indicator that this is not simply childhood trauma.

(In fact speaking to childhood trauma, I also want to add that some of the most deeply compassionate people who have helped my son and me through this had traumatic childhoods, which lent them wisdom and deep understanding.)

I strongly believe both MLC and NPD are connected to damage to the frontotemporal lobe. Whether this is viral, fungal, or some other issue I can't say. I read a fascinating article about an Israeli researcher who felt that narcissism was adult-onset autism. It made sense to me as we can clearly see our former spouses quickly "regress," almost "overnight," in much the same way we read about infants suddenly regressing.

My feeling about my ex and who he "really" was varies widely. At times I think he was always like this, but then I have had some honest moments in my heart where I remembered how funny he was, how his eyes were sparkly, and I think that if there was a period where he was "faking" it — even if it was longer than I realized at the time — perhaps he was masking the symptoms in the same way I might if I slowly realized I couldn't feel things the way that I used to. He probably was always a little "on the spectrum" of narcissism (I would have just called it a little inconsiderate), but I don't always think it was as sinister as some sites on covert narcissism would lead you to to believe.

I think that there is a tipping point, where MLCers lose both empathy and self awareness, and this is when we see bomb drop. If you read about frontotemporal lobe impairment and damage in narcissism and psychopathy you can get a clearer idea of why those afflicted with all of these conditions (or this one spectrum condition, we don't know) suddenly becomes as if a pattern.