Author Topic: Discussion Debate vs Discussion  (Read 858 times)

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Discussion Debate vs Discussion
« on: October 11, 2019, 02:53:06 PM »
Debate and Discussion are two words that are often confused when it comes to understanding their meanings and usage. Strictly speaking, there is some difference between the two words.

Maybe this is the problem with some of these threads that blow up.  Debating is going on not discussing.

I hear ‘We can debate this” “I want to debate this”  “There is nothing wrong with debating this”  “We can debate this.”  ‘I would like to debate this further.”

The word ‘debate’ is generally used in the sense of ‘deliberation’. On the other hand, the word ‘discussion’ is used in the sense of ‘detailed conversation’. This is the main difference between the two words. It is important to know that there is an element of argument in a debate. On the other hand, a discussion can be free of arguments.

A discussion normally is centered on a particular topic with assertions made by two or more people that do their best to establish the validity of the topic.

On the other hand, a debate takes place between two or more people that are intent upon proving their own statements, and thereby, engaging in arguments to oppose the assertions or statements made by other people.

This is primarily the reason why debate is held as a kind of competition to prove one’s speaking and communicative ability. On the other hand, a discussion is not held as a competition to judge a person’s speaking or communicative ability. This is another important difference between the two words.

The word ‘discussion’ is sometimes used in the sense of ‘chat’ as in the sentences
1. There was a discussion among the members of the club.
2. Francis took part in the discussion about civic sense.

As I see it there is there is no icon on HS for Debate, just Discussion.
Maybe some day RCR will elect to have a “Debate” icon here.  Until then all we have is a Discussion icon.  An exchange of ideas.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 03:09:31 PM »
We have discussion threads. We have always discussed, as well as debated.

I don't see an issue with any. Debate is part of discussion.

I am not sure why something that has always existed on HS has become such of problem in late months.

There is always someone wanting to stop discussion, debate, different points of view, challanges, questions.

Even personal story threads often have discussion and/or debate, questions, challanges, etc. Trying to stop them on discussion or green icon threads, as far as I am concerned makes no sense.

Name calling? Insults? Wishing MLC, death, ill on others? That is another matter.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 03:18:20 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 03:15:27 PM »
Good post Thunder! Definitely worth discussing.  :)

I don't care for debates. When we discuss something we can learn from each other but our goal when debating is to prove that we're right and the other person is wrong.

So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 03:18:45 PM »
So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?

We don't. But we can easily not wish MLC upon fellow LBS, not name call, not allow our out of control parts to post, etc. Maybe you could work on those for a start?

And maybe many, if not most, male LBS could work to prevent posting horrendous things about women. The rope male LBS are given when it comes to be insulting to women is amazing.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 03:22:44 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Disillusioned

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 03:40:00 PM »
So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?
And maybe many, if not most, male LBS could work to prevent posting horrendous things about women. The rope male LBS are given when it comes to be insulting to women is amazing.

Anjae,

Since I'm a male LBS, it might be instructive to have a few examples, if they can be provided.  I'd hate to think I'm responsible for posting horrendous things about women, and I'm not sure I've ever read anything on here I found fitting that description. 
M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 03:48:00 PM »
The list is too long and goes back many years. Standing was the most recent with his idea that sex is possessivness and women are, therefore, possesions and other weird stuff about men and women.

There is STP; there is cld, their threads are filled with such stuff. There was Rugged. There are others. I, and many of the women, tend to stay away from the threads of those that essencially post nothing more. But, at times, they post elsewhere, or a male LBS that does not spend all the time posting that sort of stuff comes up with strange things, like Standing Strong did.

Allow me to be clear, it is not all male LBS. There is also a difference between what Standing Strong posted and what some of the repeating offending male LBS post.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline KeepItTogether

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 04:33:49 PM »
Yes I prefer discussions, particularly in this site. I loathe debating.....and I'm a lawyer. But that is just me. I can respect people who like a lively debate--more power to them.

But I absolutely despise the personal attacks. Of course, in my opinion, that speaks more about the person making them than the object of their attack. 

Me 48
H 47
S12
BD 5/16
H Moved out 6/16
OW--yes. Worked for H. EA turned into PA while I was in chemo. On again/off again like every high school romance

Offline sada

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 04:43:27 PM »
It is pointless to debate opinions. Opinions can be discussed. There are simply not many facts known about mlc. There are personal opinions and experiences. No one should ever imagine they can debate another's story.
Sada
Me - 57
H - 56
Married 13 years, together 23
Apr 2014: PA discovered, ow 22 yrs younger
May 2014: "I love her & she loves me"
("But I'll always love you the most")
Jun 2014: Left home to live w OW
Aug 2014: Back home. "Sorry, made mistakes".
Late 2015: Ow2 (a couple of dates I think). Monster
  returned for several months 
Early 2016: Health scare, including major surgery, resulting in fog lifting some more.
Today: H progressing thru mlc positively.Mostly cooked, has remained home and reconciling
Arguments & disagreements very infrequent
Enjoying our time together

Offline SteelSpine

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 05:14:14 PM »
The biggest problem I have here is when personal opinions are stated as facts, and respectful discussion is quashed.

And sada is right. Pretty much EVERYTHING about mlc is only opinion.

But it is particularly discouraging when it is done with the whole, "it's just a challenge" schtick, implying that others are too thin-skinned, or less knowledgeable.

It is abusive. Haven't we already had enough of that in our real lives?

That is what I truly do not understand.
me 55, H 51
S13, S9 & S9
M 1/98

7/16 - BD - PA - OW
Monster until 1/17
T&Gs until 8/18
No legal action

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 07:35:37 PM »
I don't see debate is part of discussion. 
Webster definition of debate. : a contention by words or arguments.

I do love a healthy, respectful discussion though.

MB, I don't care for debates either.  Your right, when we discuss something we can learn from each other but our goal when debating is to prove that we're right and the other person is wrong.

So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?  I wish I knew.  Maybe ignore the debaters who just want to argue? ;)

KIT, thank you I loathe debating too.....and I'm not a lawyer.   ;D

Sada thank you for posting, yes it is pointless to debate opinions. Opinions can be discussed and should be.  Like MB said that's how we learn from each other.  Forcing your opinion on everyone only causes anger and resentment.

SteelSpine, I don't understand either.  I too find the biggest problem I have here is when personal opinions are stated as facts, and respectful discussion is quashed.
 
Disillusioned, you are doing a great job. No worries. You are not any kind of abusive man, neither is Standing, in my opinion.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 07:58:47 PM »
There are simply not many facts known about mlc.

There aren't?...

Pretty much EVERYTHING about mlc is only opinion.

Interesting. What pretty much everything about MLC is only opinion?

Don't recall anyone saying it was just a challange, rather when challanged in the sense of being put questions or to think differently.

I think there may be a confusion between facts, someone is in MLC, Replay, Monster, etc. and opinions.

I think most MLCers will come out of MLC and of those most will want back, diffent from being allowed back. RCR is not longer knows if most MLCers will come out of MLC and she does not think of those most will want back. Those are opinions.

Those of you so upsed with opinions/personal experience being passed for fact did not seem so when SS's was/is saying things like LBS know that your MLCer loves you and is thinking about you. How does she knows? Does she knows our MLCers? It seems to me the issue only exists if, by chance, it happens to be me, LP, Air, NYM, etc.

Brain goes around saying MLCers are abused people, yet he does not know all our MLCers. No matter how many times I tell him it does not aplly to myself, my cousin who had MLC and the real life people who had a MLC or are having one, he still insists MLCers are abused people.


Debate and discussion have several meanings, some very similar. It depends of dictionary.

"(a) serious discussion of a subject in which many people take part:"

"a discussion, esp. one in which several people with different opinions about something discuss them seriously, or the process of discussing something"

from: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/debate


You are not any kind of abusive man, neither is Standing, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 08:03:00 PM by Anjae »
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 09:35:40 PM »
This is primarily the reason why debate is held as a kind of competition to prove one’s speaking and communicative ability.

Yes, if you are still in high school and you attend a high school debating competition. But we are adults here.

We can use the presidential debates in the US these days as an example though. A debate is an opportunity to convince others of your position on a matter. It becomes a debate if someone else has an opposing view and expresses that view.

It's not about proving speaking and communicative ability. It's about the relative merits of the substance of the arguments being made.

Sometimes people who lack confidence in responding to others' points in a discussion will accuse them of making a debate about proving one's abilities, and ignore the substance and points of the other person's argument. In the context of a forum like this, these are the kind of people who complain to the moderator that somehow they are being attacked, when in actuality, all they need to do is present their own opposing viewpoints and allow themselves to be heard.

I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

I could be wrong, but I feel the underlying message in the original post here is an attempt to shut people down who are expressing their opinions.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Online 3Boys4Me

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2019, 10:18:14 PM »
Thanks for this discussion Thunder, it seems like a more fruitful place to discuss this on this thread than embedded elsewhere. I post rarely, but I read and I have yet to tell my story - maybe I’m hesitant because of some of the antagonism I see on this board. Let me give a concrete example - I was reading in Shock Sis thread and there was a discussion about blame - the OW/OM versus the MLCer - I stated my opinion that each individual was 100% responsible for their actions - both the MLCer and OW make their own decisions - to lie, cheat, destroy a marriage etc. I was told abruptly, and I quote - 3Boys you are wrong.... hmmmm, really? opinions are not facts, they are opinions and as such, like feelings, they are neither right nor wrong, they simply are. The comment was made by a person who is triggered by recovering MLCer shock sis. Opinions aren’t up for debate - we can agree, we can agree to disagree - but when a person vehemently suggests other people are wrong because they think differently, then the issue is with the person righteously proclaiming they are correct and all others are wrong. It’s exhausting - and does it really belong on a forum where we come to each other for support? I don’t know, I find that the people who bridge opinions with compassion, who ask probing questions without judgement - and who relate to the person speaking rather than only from their perspective is where the true value of this board lies - we all need to be heard and listened to -

For me, non-violent communication - whether I agree with an opinion or not - will always be far more effective at breaking down barriers to understanding and finding common ground - I am here for the common ground - if I wanted to fight - I would text my MLCer ...
BD End of April 2017
Moved out - kind of, May 2017
Denied affair
Cycled hard April - Oct 2017, my son figured out affair, I confronted husband, we were going away as a family for the weekend - H monsters hard and files for a D end of Oct, 2017
D final Sept 2018
Many touch and goes
He lives in monster, kids haven’t been with him overnight since Jan 2019
Moved in with MOW, a former friend of mine, May 2019

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2019, 10:26:20 PM »


Brain goes around saying MLCers are abused people, yet he does not know all our MLCers. No matter how many times I tell him it does not aplly to myself, my cousin who had MLC and the real life people who had a MLC or are having one, he still insists MLCers are abused people.



Brain is not alone in that opinion. A lot of us agree with him, and disagree with you.

But there is value in that disagreement, as much as I think you are wrong, your opposition to the idea that FOO issues are at play in MLC is a useful learning moment for those of us who disagree. Because your vehement opposition shows us how hard it would be to simply point out to our MLCers what may be patently obvious to us, that they have FOO issues. That they may deny and deflect and reject such a point, just as you have. Last night I was so tempted to tell my H that he needs to deal with whatever his issues are with food after he asked me to make dinner and then 5 minutes later angrily told me he didn't want any. But then I said, you know what, he won't listen. He has to figure it out for himself.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2019, 10:39:56 PM »
Feelings are neither right nor wrong, they just are, yet we question the MLCer's feelings for the alienator and to consider them right.

I see no reason for LBS not to tell their story. In fact, if I am not mistaken HS has, or used to have a rule where LBS need to have their own story thread and tell their story.

There are several LBS without a story thread, including mods. It did not used to be that way. And, not, it is not because of discussions. HS was far more aggressive years ago.


MLCers as a whole have been abused is different than MLCers, like everyone else, having FOO issues. I'm not keen on the idea MLC only comes from FOO issues nor that those issues are from childhood. Adolescence makes sense for myself, childhood does not. There no issues when I was a child, there were things from when I was to turn 14 onwards. I have spoke about it in the past.

However, I don't think that was the reason for my MLC and I do not recall working on any issues related with the matter. Maybe I did and it vanished.


Since I was not abused, my cousin was not, Mr J was not and no one in real life I know who is having a MLC, or had, was, surely MLCers were abused is not true. Some MLCers were abused, not all MLCers.

I don't know any real life MLCer that had a dad like yours nor who had a childhood like Brain's.

But that was not my point bringing Brain, and SS's up.

Can't say I ever noticed Mr J working on any issues. He is still deep in Replay where the buses don't run. Nothing in his childhood or adolescence was that bad. Many non-MLCer people I know had really terrible childhoods and/or adolescences. My adolescence was far worst than his. My MLC was mild and short. Lenght and severity of MLC do not seem to equal what happened in a person childhood and/or adolescence.


You are talking about me, 3Boys4Me. It was I that said both MLCer and OW/OM are responsible for their actions, but OW/OM are not married to us and the only person responsible for the end of the marriage and getting involved with OW/OM is the MLCer.

SS's was trying to excuse herself with OM being manipulative. He may had been, but she was the one who start chatting to him on-line. Sure, he chatted back, but she was looking for someone. OM was not married to the LBS.

Not sure what SS's, or any other MLCer being on the lookout for OM/OW has to do with feelings. It is a fact, not a feeling or an opinion.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2019, 04:30:27 AM »

I don't see debate is part of discussion. 

 I don't care for debates either.

So how do we keep our discussions from turning into debates?  I wish I knew.  Maybe ignore the debaters who just want to argue? ;)

 Opinions can be discussed and should be. 


Well you've structured this thread with the basic underlying premise that:

debates are bad
debates are not part of discussion
You don't like debates

The implied (suggested) goal then is to stop debate.

And your suggestion is to ignore those who you judge as just wanting to argue.

Hmmm,

That's not a discussion when the "correct" answer is so clearly implied.  That's set up so that anyone who disagrees with the premise is wrong and is debating.

But setting aside that point,

So because you have a problem with debate however defined, others need to accommodate/change?

But it's just a select group that must change.  Those who have different thoughts and approaches from yours.  Others even when they post emotionally charged out of control personal attacks don't face the sanctions and condemnation of being singled out as not part of the clique here.  Brain jumps to mind with his now famous quote wishing a MLC on anyone who disagrees with him.

And your judgement that anyone who is seemingly debating, just wants to argue? What if that's an incorrect judgement based on your personal issues? 

Rcr just highlighted that occurring in a post from XYZCF after all.  And you followed that up with agreement after all, before RCR posted her disagreement, naturally.  So who wanted to argue/debate?  Rcr? You? XYZCF? Me who was not participating in that part of the discussion?

What about instead approaching it without personal biases, addressing it from a neutral beginning and addressing content?  "I disagree with x because xyz so we can agree to disagree."

This whole created issue is nothing more than a rehash of old arguments between love them back and tough love sides in my opinion famed in a new manner. 

Adults shouldn't have to surround themselves with only people who are similar to themselves in thought and personality.  That's what MLCers do in large part and that's disparaged on HS.  Yet here some want to that seemingly. 

That's not a road to success or growth and it's hypocritical to do the same here yet complain a MLCer is doing wrong. 

My opinion.

Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2019, 05:20:43 AM »
LP,

I'm not asking anyone to do anything.  People are going to do what their going to do.  They can disagree with me all they want, as long as it's kept civil.

MB just asked how we can stop a discussion from turning into a debate.  I said I wish I knew.  Maybe don't engage with people who are only wanting to debate.

My point in having this Discussion thread was only to point out there is a difference between debating and discussing.  At least I think there is. 

I very much enjoy hearing different view points on an issue.
It has changed my mind many times hearing how someone else sees something, maybe from a side I hadn't thought of.  I'm not closed minded.

What I don't like is bullying someone into agreeing with your point of view.
I think that is possibly why many of us say we don't like debate.  It turns into arguments on here.

In a debate you are expected to try to change someone's mind to agree with your point of view.   A discussion is an exchange of ideas, you're not trying to change someone's mind.
You might be giving them a different way of looking at something.

I have often read your posts and agreed with what you have said, sometimes I don't.
But I respect that you have never been impolite to anyone.

In my personal life I debate a lot with my friends and family on political issues, it may get spirited at times, but we always respect each other.  If we find we can't agree in the end, we just let it go.
I wish that would happen more on this board.  Just agree to disagree and let it go.

Btw, I don't think debates are bad.
Maybe we should have a Debate icon for people who enjoy it.   :)
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2019, 06:02:52 AM »
The problem is that some of us are wrongly tarred and feathered as "wanting to argue" or "wanting to debate."

I'm not particularly interested in either. I have an opinion, I state it. Simple as that.

Then there are others who don't agree or don't like my opinion, and therefore, my simply stating my position gets twisted into wanting to argue or wanting to debate.

I'd love it if everyone agreed with me, but I have ZERO control over the fact that some people don't. If they agreed with me, they wouldn't see it as an argument or a debate, would they? It's a catch-22.

You once accused me of pushing the point about "aliens" too hard on Shocked's thread. I think you actually thought I was bullying.

You know the reason I kept repeating myself?

I seriously did not want to repeat myself, I was getting sick of having to do so actually. It was like banging my head against the wall.

But I did it because you were twisting the meaning of what I said to mean something completely different, and I had no choice but to clarify my position or else what seemed like blatant attempts on your part to attribute malicious intentions on me that I did not have would have stood. I didn't need anyone to agree with my position, i just had to protect my position from being mischaracterized by you.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 06:04:20 AM by Not Your Monkey »
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2019, 06:09:37 AM »
I'm sorry NYM, I really don't remember this conversation.

Do you remember what thread of hers that was on?  You were discussing aliens?
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2019, 07:13:11 AM »


 I did it because you were twisting the meaning of what I said to mean something completely different, and I had no choice but to clarify my position or else what seemed like blatant attempts on your part to attribute malicious intentions on me that I did not have would have stood. I didn't need anyone to agree with my position, i just had to protect my position from being mischaracterized by you.

THIS!!!
Right here!

I can't tell you how much time is wasted when someone reads into a post instead of reading the words there.  Then they react and scream hurtling ridiculous accusations to something not written in the post personalizing something.  And one can't defend themselves against ideas made up in another's mind.  I ask them to show me where I said "that" and I get some rambling well I can't find it right now but...if any response.

Do you think even 1 comes back and says, Gee I see you didn't say that.  I'm sorry I reacted,?  Nope not one.  They just huff off to their thread whispering that I'm mean.

That's not to mention the number of times some twist words to suit their preconceived judgements of others and to suit their own agenda. 

If someone doesn't understand what's said, how about asking for clarification? 

But the go to for some is personalize and react rather than reading, considering, and thinking. Stop that and a portion of the nastiness that ensues won't get started. But that would entail people behaving like adults rather than like high school girls in a clique.

My opinion.
Lp

if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2019, 07:27:36 AM »
I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

The problem with debate or even discussion on this forum is that these two parts, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, are usually missing. And that's ok. But without them what is being presented is simply one person's opinion. And that's ok too. But we all have opinions and without something to support those opinions one person's opinion is no more meaningful than the next.

Anjae has complained that I go around saying that MLCers are abused people. I believe that's a misrepresentation of my actual opinion, just as NYM felt her opinion had been misrepresented in another thread, but for now let's say Anjae is correct. So what? That's my opinion. Aren't I allowed to have an opinion? I haven't complained about Anjae going around saying that MLCers aren't abused people.

If Anjae really believes my opinion is wrong and truly wishes to debate, as she often states, perhaps she could post some evidence supporting her position. Apocryphal stories about herself and a few people she knows add to our body of knowledge but, in my opinion, don't qualify as evidence. We have no way of knowing whether Anjae or the others she mentions actually experienced what we as a group would consider an MLC.

The following is a position statement that is not directly related to the debate vs. discussion topic. Feel free to ignore it.

Many children who are abused and/or emotionally neglected develop PTSD, Complex PTSD, or other more severe dissociative disorders. That is not my opinion. That is a well documented fact. Do a little research and you'll find lots of evidence supporting that statement.

For the record, my opinion is that the characteristics of adults with these conditions are remarkably similar to the characteristics of those people who we refer to on this forum as MLCers. Therefore, I believe (my opinion is) that it's worth considering that what we call MLC may already have been identified by the medical / mental health community.

I came here wondering why my wife's personality changed so radically. Based on the newbie's stories I have read, I believe many others come here with the same question. I believe people have the intelligence and the right to come to their own conclusions. I often post links to journal articles or articles from authoritative websites, not to prove that I'm right, but because I'm an educator and I like to provide additional information for those who are interested.
 
If you're not interested, ignore what I post and ignore the articles. It makes no difference to me because I'm not trying to prove that I'm right or that anyone is wrong. I'm just providing food for thought. At least. that's what I think I'm doing. You may have a different opinion regarding what you think I'm doing. Nothing I can do about that. You're all entitled to your opinions.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2019, 07:29:02 AM »
LP-I think there are probably some here who simply lack the educational background that we have who simply do not understand disagreements beyond the level of high school clique reactions. You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally. While I am fully aware that some people have not had the opportunity for to further their education in that manner, I also refuse to dumb it down to their level. Some people's idea of winning an argument is to tell others to ignore opinions they don't like. If this were a university, those people would fail their courses because they are incapable of even coming up with a cogent response to defend their own position.
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Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2019, 07:34:54 AM »
I recall one thing from high school speech class. "PREP". It stands for making your point, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, and reiterating your point. I think such an outline would be good for either a debate or a discussion.

The problem with debate or even discussion on this forum is that these two parts, giving your reasons, giving your evidence, are usually missing. And that's ok. But without them what is being presented is simply one person's opinion. And that's ok too. But we all have opinions and without something to support those opinions one person's opinion is no more meaningful than the next.


I will plead guilty to that from time to time. I will admit there are some things that I do state very confidently and I know I do not give my reasons publicly. Those who know my whole story know why I don't share my evidence and reasons but they could also tell you I am not just spouting off and actually base my comments on experience that probably nobody else in this forum has had. Unfortunately, there are limits to the personal information that some of us are willing to share and when that personal information founds the basis for our assertions, we are in a bind. But when I feel confident about what I am saying, I am going to state it with confidence. The problem is some people see that as trying to push a point on others.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 07:37:41 AM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline Nas

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2019, 07:42:49 AM »
LP-I think there are probably some here who simply lack the educational background that we have who simply do not understand disagreements beyond the level of high school clique reactions. You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally. While I am fully aware that some people have not had the opportunity for to further their education in that manner, I also refuse to dumb it down to their level. Some people's idea of winning an argument is to tell others to ignore opinions they don't like. If this were a university, those people would fail their courses because they are incapable of even coming up with a cogent response to defend their own position.

This is one of the biggest problems on this forum.

LP wrote a harsh truth in a respectful way.
NYM, your words are elitist, rude, and suggest you are above others.

THAT’S WHERE YOU (specifically you, NYM) lose people.
That’s where your words lose all meaning for many because you insult and demean and then your entire point is lost.

There is disagreement and there are hard truths, and then there is just plain rude.
No one wants you to “dumb it down.”
But maybe you could “tone it down” and stop insulting people.

Just my opinion. And not that it should matter but I hold two masters degrees. Which makes my opinion no more or less valid than anyone else’s...in my opinion.

Sorry, I wasn’t going to participate in this thread, but NYM, IMO you cross a line quite often. You make some valid points but you also hurl a lot of unnecessary comments that don’t seem to have any purpose except to be insulting.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 07:43:52 AM by Nas »
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2019, 07:56:15 AM »
MB, your article are always interesting and thought provoking.   Some fascinating.

I do read them.   :)  I've learned a lot about dissociative disorders.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2019, 08:17:42 AM »
You and I have both taught at the university level where debate is encouraged and people are capable of engaging in it without taking it personally.

I've been teaching at the University level for almost 30 years so I find it difficult to allow this statement to pass without comment. Over the years I have observed bitter disagreements between people with PhDs and huge egos who teach at and do research at the University level. In my opinion the ability to engage in civil discussion and debate is not limited to those with advanced degrees and isn't always possessed by those with advanced degrees. But I do believe that people who work in education may be more likely to back up their opinions with documented evidence.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2019, 08:49:04 AM »
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?

I came to this forum to learn about MLC. I came here as a student of MLC. Not a teacher. I do share my experience and my opinions because that is what one does when one hangs out in a certain environment, but honestly, if my experience and opinions are lost on others who only look at the tone and ignore the substance, that's their loss, not mine. I'm not here to be a guru of MLC and have lots of sycophant followers who hang on to every word. MLC is not my area of expertise and the last place I want to be in this forum is on a soap box. I'd rather be inside the box to be honest. I hate the pressure to share our stories about our MLC lives even because I prefer to live my life, not talk about it.

I've learned a lot by reading this forum, I've learned a lot from resources shared by others (especially the stuff MBIB has shared about CPTSD).  I've learned a lot from discussions I have with friends I've made here who I correspond with privately. It's helps me in dealing with my H's MLC. And that's the bottom line. I came here because I was facing challenges in my life and I needed strategies to deal with them. I came here for what really are simple practical reasons (you can call that a selfish reason if you want). And the forum has provided me with those. If that's all I get out of this forum, I'm a happy camper.
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Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2019, 08:54:03 AM »

I've been teaching at the University level for almost 30 years so I find it difficult to allow this statement to pass without comment. Over the years I have observed bitter disagreements between people with PhDs and huge egos who teach at and do research at the University level. In my opinion the ability to engage in civil discussion and debate is not limited to those with advanced degrees and isn't always possessed by those with advanced degrees. But I do believe that people who work in education may be more likely to back up their opinions with documented evidence.

Yes, that is true. But I am not talking about people with higher degrees even. Part of what is taught in universities to even the freshman is how to engage in civil discussion and debate. I'm not talking about the kind of disagreements you see at an academic conference between two bitter rivals. I'm talking about the basic discussion and debate skills that are taught as part of university courses.  Let's be honest, there are some people here whose repertoire consists of nothing but the kind of insults you would find being made between 13 year old girls. It's a small minority of the forum, but there are some people you can't imagine having any sort of rudimentary adult conversation even.
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Offline Nas

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2019, 08:54:25 AM »
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?


Oh yeah. I got it, NYM. I definitely got it.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2019, 09:15:45 AM »
Read what I wrote, Brain, I said some MLCers are, or may be, abused people, but that MLCers, as in all MLCers, does not aplly.

But saying MLCers are abused people is small compared with others things you have been doing and that you do no seem to want to work on, namely your parts on the loose on HS that say the most awfyul things.

Since your parts do not show at work, not, from what I recall of what you wrote, in real life social settings, surely you are able to have some control over them. Otherwise, they would show here and there at work and in real life social settings, wouldn't they?

I am aware abuse or neglect can lead to PTSD and several other issues. However they do not lead in everyone and of those that suffer from it not all have a MLC.

Brain, I really think you should seriously focus on your very serious health issues. They have provoked hurt and problems on HS.

Your wife is your wife, she is not someone else's MLCer. A sample of one.  It is true some other MLCers were negletec and suffer abuse, but it still does not mean they are all disassociating.

We have no way of knowing whether Anjae or the others she mentions actually experienced what we as a group would consider an MLC.

We have no way of knowing anyone experienced a MLC. We only have what we are told. Single me out because you disagree with me, is, in my view, silly.

You have far bigger issues to deal with, if what you say is to be believed. We have no way of knowing you suffer from what you say you do, do we?

As I think you know since you seem familiar with articles on dissassociative disorder, disassociateve disorder (former multiple personality disorder) is a controvertial illness in which many psychiatrists and therapists, if not most, do not believe him. It is thought disassociateve disorder (former multiple personality disorder) is an illness created by the psychiatrist/therapist that plants the idea into the patient mind.

Surely, if seasoned, respectful professionals, have doubts about the illness we are also allowed to have them. Especially when, according to you, you are able to control your parts at work and in real life social functions.

Something that is not controllable does not tend to just be controllbale at will.

The proverbial self-work may be in order, Brain.
Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together. (Marilyn Monroe)

Offline Acorn

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2019, 09:30:32 AM »
It is my opinion that it’s not so much the educational background as it is the level emotional maturity of the poster that indicates whether one is able to engage in a productive manner.  Hurling personal insults or saying ‘I’m spitting mad because I don’t agree’ without giving a cogent argument is neither mature, nor productive, in my view.

Among many signs of emotional maturity, there are notable ones that make the list in many books and discussions, academic or otherwise.  These are, off the top of my head:

1. Taking full personal responsibility without blaming anything or anyone
2. Self control - respond, not react
3. Recognize and admit when you are wrong. And then apologize.
4. Recognize where the areas of personal growth are and work on it

And the list goes on.  Adulting is hard...

Just my 2 cents’ worth!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 09:44:25 AM by Acorn »
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Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2019, 10:02:37 AM »
I think you make valid points Acorn and I don't disagree, if you are talking about general human interaction.

But we were talking specifically about debating. And I do think debate is a more academic/political pursuit than anything else. It's not something that someone learns the rules and conventions of in general social situations.
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Offline Ready2Transform

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2019, 10:30:25 AM »
Quote
1. Taking full personal responsibility without blaming anything or anyone
2. Self control - respond, not react
3. Recognize and admit when you are wrong. And then apologize.
4. Recognize where the areas of personal growth are and work on it

LOVE this.

This discussion (or debate? IRONY) over semantics of words is all distraction. If everyone agreed on every point or didn't have a POV to bring to a conversation, HS would just be a blog with comments that all say, "great job!". There are plenty of those out there. RCR does not filter membership here so everyone is welcome to the party, and sometimes there will be debates. I think LP hit the nail on the head with this:

Quote
I can't tell you how much time is wasted when someone reads into a post instead of reading the words there.

We've all been guilty of it, especially when we've had a contentious forum relationship with someone in the past, or just have a particular attitude toward someone that puts their words in a different internal voice than what might be intended.

This is why I didn't understand how out of hand the conversation got on ShockSis's thread. I didn't read any personal attack in the suggestion that SS might not have resolved her MLC. It's not an outlandish suggestion, since it's generally agreed around here that the timeline is not under five years, and doesn't end with the resolution of the marriage (whether requited with the LBS, or turned down by them). And it's not unusual to hit a place in the healing process where you begin to teach a bit. But who knows. As has been pointed out here by pretty much everyone on both sides, we have no idea what really lies behind the words we're all crafting for each other. It's all food for thought for those of us still healing from our perspective experiences.

LP also referenced accommodation and I think that's so important to highlight. We used to talk about co-dependence here and finding the places we may have lost ourselves, either within our spouses MLCs, or within the marriage in general. Accommodation was a big theme, and it's important I think to not transfer co-dependence to the forum and have it need to fulfill that for us. Learning to individuate, sometimes stand against the crowd (standing in general is just that in many ways in regards to society's view of separation and divorce), and find our independence is a gift we didn't expect from this. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from exploring new ideas and attitudes, or even finding their own voice (which may not always play out perfectly). By needing to have people either confirm our biases or shun those that don't in a sort of "soft-mob mentality", I think it's doing just that.

"Unconditional love is the highest of high standards, and while we are letting go of our need to control the process of anyone else, we are taking within our lives complete accountability for our own experience."

http://seriousvanity.com/how-to-cultivate-unconditional-love-and-change-the-world/

Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2019, 10:39:36 AM »
See NYM, that is your opinion. 

My opinion is a good debater needs people skills and can communicate efficiently.   
Feel confident you know the topic you are debating, and also have good listening skills.

I would never debate something I know little about.

A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Anjae

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2019, 10:42:35 AM »
I would never debate something I know little about.


Here we mostly discuss/debate MLC. We surely know enough about it, don't we?
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Offline Acorn

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2019, 10:52:25 AM »
Sorry, I was not clear., NYM.   I just assumed that people could read my mind!  ;D
Yes, I was talking about general human interaction, including debating on HS.   

By the way, I’m not dismissing the ‘education’ factor in debating and how one learns and practices it in the academia.  Seeing that HS is not in the realm of tertiary institutions and it is full of emotive subjects, I hold the opinion that the emotional maturity level of a poster perhaps plays a more significant role than his/her knowledge and experience in debating when he/she posts.  I think that person’s emotional maturity gives him the ability to engage in a gainful discussion without lashing out in knee jerk reaction, which has no substance and resides in the realm of child having a tantrum. 


You perhaps had same moment as me in regards to people reading your mind with your replay #21.

I think you meant:


But we were talking specifically about debating. And I do think debate is a more academic/political pursuit than anything else. It's not something that someone learns the rules and conventions of in general social situations.

However, I can see how people may have perceived that post as arrogant and dismissive of those with no shiny letters before and after our names. 

I must admit I was taken aback by the comment as well. 
It’s good to read of your true intentions behind those words.  Thank you.  :)

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Offline ThunderTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2019, 11:01:50 AM »
Of course Anjae we have had many discussions on MLC.  Some very good ones, helpful ones in fact.

I was talking in general. 
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2019, 11:38:59 AM »
Sorry, I was not clear., NYM.   I just assumed that people could read my mind!  ;D
Yes, I was talking about general human interaction, including debating on HS.   

By the way, I’m not dismissing the ‘education’ factor in debating and how one learns and practices it in the academia.  Seeing that HS is not in the realm of tertiary institutions and it is full of emotive subjects, I hold the opinion that the emotional maturity level of a poster perhaps plays a more significant role than his/her knowledge and experience in debating when he/she posts.  I think that person’s emotional maturity gives him the ability to engage in a gainful discussion without lashing out in knee jerk reaction, which has no substance and resides in the realm of child having a tantrum. 


I also to some extent was contrasting the behavior one would find in school (teenage girl style) when two people disagreed, as opposed to that of grown ups.

I still think emotional maturity is only one part of it though. I think someone may lack the confidence in their ability to successfully get their point across because they feel they lack what we might call debating skills. Some people may just stay silent in that case, which is an emotionally mature way of reacting. Others, however, lacking such skills, will manifest that lack of skills by trying to make their case in an emotionally immature way. If they can't beat you with a cogent argument, they will try to beat you with insults and name calling or just simply tell you to shut up and butt out.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 11:40:39 AM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 11:52:44 AM »
Good summary of what I said, Blue Belle. Thanks.

I think I would tie it up by saying I would not hold it against anyone if they lack either debate or discussion skills, but I will hold it against them if they try to compensate for the lack of such skills by engaging in emotionally immature reactions.
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Offline Nas

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 12:50:06 PM »


LP also referenced accommodation and I think that's so important to highlight. We used to talk about co-dependence here and finding the places we may have lost ourselves, either within our spouses MLCs, or within the marriage in general. Accommodation was a big theme, and it's important I think to not transfer co-dependence to the forum and have it need to fulfill that for us. Learning to individuate, sometimes stand against the crowd (standing in general is just that in many ways in regards to society's view of separation and divorce), and find our independence is a gift we didn't expect from this. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from exploring new ideas and attitudes, or even finding their own voice (which may not always play out perfectly). By needing to have people either confirm our biases or shun those that don't in a sort of "soft-mob mentality", I think it's doing just that.

Agree with this a million times over.
Married 8 years at BD, together 16.
BD March 2015
H moved out July 2015
I found out about OW March 2016 (She went to high school with H, long distance EA since September 2014, became PA November 2015)
H moved 1100 miles to live with OW June 2016
I was diagnosed with advanced breast cancer June 2017
H became a vanisher

Online readytofixmyselffirst

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2019, 06:31:01 PM »
Hello,

I spent the weekend with Mom and Dad. I left my wife at home as I just left right from work and headed straight to their house. Otherwise a one and a half hour trip becomes four and a half hours if I go back home to pick my wife up. Weird being alone for the day. However, I spent Saturday washing and waxing my parent's car, then dinner. Got up this morning, cup of coffee and words with Dad. (Trump supporter and Fox news guru). Yes. Then home to exercise and take wife to Costco.

While I think the idea of debate and discussion is a topic I see as it really is splitting hairs. You can have a lively discussion that borders on open heated debate, and you can have debate that borders on sheer boredom of spending eight hours at the airport waiting for your delayed flight. Furthermore, as stated, a debate is typically moderated and the questions posed by the moderator with both sides given equal time to respond. So do we really debate? I don't think so. However, you are all free to post as I am about to post as well. However, I am going to drift a little and go in another direction.

I am going to focus on two aspects that have been alluded to but not expounded on:

Intent and delivery

As time has passed and I have grown as a man, I have passed certain phases. The first phase was being a "right" fighter.  My intent was to be right and I would post, say, or write anything to prove a point-even at the expense of a relationship. Like some that have posted, I would look the person who I hurt and say, I'm just looking at the facts.

My point is that my intent was not to help, influence, or assist the other person, it was to drive home a point- that I was right and it served my ego to be right.

My wife's MLC and time on the forum gave me a new perspective. That being right doesn't necessarily win you the game. A lot of wonderful people that have posted on the forum ending up on the short end of the stick despite all the good.

As I have progressed, my intent has changed. It has been posted by RCR that the best we can do to others including our MLCers is to influence them- not direct or coerce them. My intent is to support and strive to help the LBSer as they strive to survive and rebuild after bomb drop. Some people welcome my advice and others don't. I continue with those that ask and I drop those that don't. It's nothing personal, if I am not positively influencing why bang my head against the wall?

In the end, despite all that I strive to help, I will always be at a disadvantage because I can't read body language and often misconstrue or misinterpret what others are posting. Many times, I have responded only to go back and reread and realize I completely missed a statement or sentence. Oops.

I have an opinion, I state it. Simple as that.

There is nothing wrong or right with an opinion. Especially when you state specifically that it is an opinion and not a fact. Many who post are quick to add that they are just giving an opinion and it helps. My question to you, that I have done both on the forum and in personal message, is been why do you post? What is your intent?  Is it to prove a point? Is it to help the LBSer? If you read your post and to the reader, your can't infer the intent, maybe you should reconsider your post.

 
Nas-I do not come here to prove a point or win a debate. Therefore, I really don't care if I actually convince anyone I am right. I don't care if I lose people's confidence because of my tone. I am quite aware of my blunt tone and it is part of who I am and always have been (it's a trait I got from my father) and it is laughable that people think they are pointing out to me something about my personality I am not already aware of. It's who I am and I am not going to change. Got that?

I came to this forum to learn about MLC. I came here as a student of MLC. Not a teacher. I do share my experience and my opinions because that is what one does when one hangs out in a certain environment, but honestly, if my experience and opinions are lost on others who only look at the tone and ignore the substance, that's their loss, not mine. I'm not here to be a guru of MLC and have lots of sycophant followers who hang on to every word. MLC is not my area of expertise and the last place I want to be in this forum is on a soap box. I'd rather be inside the box to be honest. I hate the pressure to share our stories about our MLC lives even because I prefer to live my life, not talk about it.

I've learned a lot by reading this forum, I've learned a lot from resources shared by others (especially the stuff MBIB has shared about CPTSD).  I've learned a lot from discussions I have with friends I've made here who I correspond with privately. It's helps me in dealing with my H's MLC. And that's the bottom line. I came here because I was facing challenges in my life and I needed strategies to deal with them. I came here for what really are simple practical reasons (you can call that a selfish reason if you want). And the forum has provided me with those. If that's all I get out of this forum, I'm a happy camper.

If that's your intent, why not write your own thread and take the advice you seek? There are many that have and stay on their own thread. They don't seek information by posting on someone else's story or life. You don't have to post your life story or go deep, just ask the questions you seek and respond to the advice you receive.

Quote
I think I would tie it up by saying I would not hold it against anyone if they lack either debate or discussion skills, but I will hold it against them if they try to compensate for the lack of such skills by engaging in emotionally immature reactions.

I agree to some extent. But many times, we don't elicit a positive remark because the respondent lacks skills. It is simply because we have struck a nerve. Yet many times, we hurt others and don't respond with an apology. Our lack of an empathetic response can clearly demonstrate our true intent.

I also have read Angie's responses about the former MLCer. I have personally stayed away from the thread as I have little to offer either way. However, I do agree with Angie on several points. If we were a forum of family that lost a loved one to DUI, the last thing we would want is for a former person convicted of a DUI related death to come and post that it was all the fault of alcohol, or worse, the other driver. If you are going to come forward, own it.

Just like Law Professor stated, the MLCer needs to be held responsible, but so does the LBSer. During my wife's crisis, I made mistakes. I don't think I should have moved out. I read far too much into her actions when I should have been working on me. It's water under the bridge, but I own it. My choices, my actions, and I never tried to deflect or hold anyone in real life or on the forum for the consequences of my actions or my MLCer. It was our marriage- not anyone else.

The final point is about delivery. There is a reason why doctors are graded on bed side manner. Despite all the great knowledge and skill, a doctor with bad delivery can hurt just as much as a first year intern trying to figure out exactly where everything is in the hospital.

Yes, many doctors can state they are blunt and that's the way they are. Never going to change. Yet, they take an oath not to do the patient any harm. Blunt delivery can do great harm. Each one of us have our own distinct pressure points and with the right pressure, we can break. I know I hit mine and I did break, completely.

On this forum, if you find yourself pressing on someone's pressure point, is it good to continue to press on despite the potential harm or back off? If we are meant to support, is bitterly arguing and insulting someone going to ever have a positive outcome?

Is pounding them over the head going to change them? So far I have read little where heavy hitting has made anyone change course even if they are heading towards the iceberg. Just my opinion.

Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon and feels that I am saying that we all should be a bunch of yes men at anything that is posted, I soundly disagree. Two people told my SIL that she was going to die. Both were doctors- one had terrible delivery and it devastated her, left her in tears for days, the other one left her somber, but with dignity. That doctor wasn't a yes man. He was an honorable man. Which one would you want? It's not about always agreeing. It's how you disagree that makes the difference.

I don't have to post. My MLCer and I have been divorced for over six years. I am remarried to someone special. My MLCer even showed remorse and gave me a sincere apology. Spoke to my youngest, my ex is interested in a new guy. She says he seems nice and is bald like me. We've both moved forward. My own thread is coming to a close. As time passes, I find myself in a different phase and different mindset. When I reach the point when my advice no longer helps or has a positive impact, I will stop.

In the meantime, I shall continue. I will post with an intent to help and delivery to support. I may not always succeed but I do so as it is my honor on the line. I do both in real life and on the forum.

So as you discuss or debate on someone's thread, I guess I can only hope that you do so with honor as well.


Have a great evening or morning depending on where you are,

(((((Ready))))))


RCR Edited to correct quote coding.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:06:35 PM by Rollercoasterider »
"Always look in the mirror and love what you see."

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2019, 10:11:31 PM »
Ready-I will respond to your questions because it is simply a matter of style that you are missing about me.

I did not come here for advice that is delivered advice columnist style. I didn't come here to create a thread, post all personal details of my life (I personally find this format to be intrusive and invasive of my privacy) and then sit back and wait for people to give me advice on what I do.

I came here primarily to do two things-1-Read the collective content of the site and take from it what is relevant to my own situation with or without any discussion or questions on it, 2-Discuss MLC issues as general ISSUES, especially on issue related threads, which can include discussion of examples from my own life and others.

Telling me to get my own thread and post all the private details of my life to me is prying and overstepping one's bounds. I know most people who POST here don't see it that way, but there are plenty of people who log in every day and read, and NEVER post a single post, so I would suggest there are far more people like me around here who prefer to keep our general story private than you realize. Perhaps, if there was less of a pressure to post about one's personal MLC experiences and more encouragement of discussion and even debate on MLC as a phenomenon, the forum would be more welcoming to a wider range of helpful people.

In fact, I feel rather put on that I have to explain the concept of personal privacy and being selective about what I post at all to you. I shouldn't have to do that either.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:16:27 PM by Not Your Monkey »
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Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2019, 06:37:21 AM »
Telling me to get my own thread and post all the private details of my life to me is prying and overstepping one's bounds. I know most people who POST here don't see it that way, but there are plenty of people who log in every day and read, and NEVER post a single post, so I would suggest there are far more people like me around here who prefer to keep our general story private than you realize.

I understand, acknowledge, and respect your right and everyone else's right to privacy, speaking as one who probably shares more than I should. But I feel compelled to point out the obvious. If everyone comes here to read and nobody posts, there will be nothing to read. If nobody posts private details, there will be no additions to the store of general knowledge about MLC and MLC behaviors. And to only take from the forum without contributing could be seen as a selfish form of behavior. I'm not saying that people who only read are being selfish, there is no obligation to contribute, but with no contributors there is no forum. And when somebody does take part in the discussions without having posted the details of their situation we have no context for their comments. For all we know they could be a journalist or a troll.

I'm not sure how we could discuss and/or debate MLC as a phenomenon without including personal experiences since there doesn't seem to be an accepted definition of MLC. One of the things I believe this forum is doing is defining MLC. We could easily discuss and/or debate attachment theory or the effects of childhood trauma, or the effects of spousal abandonment and divorce since those issues seem to be fairly well researched and a large body of knowledge already exists but we seem to be the pioneers when it comes to MLC. There are a few resources like the Conways but those seem to be pretty limited. The discussions are usually related to personal experiences so the discussions will probably end if nobody is willing to relate their personal experiences.

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2019, 06:44:59 AM »
MBIB-I would suggest you go read the archive of my posts. I DO post about my situation, selectively, when the context warrants it. I just choose not to have a personal thread.

And for your information both RCR and OP know why I choose not to have a personal thread and choose not to post my entire story and they support me in that decision and think it is a sound one.
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2019, 07:34:52 AM »
NYM, I'm sorry if you were offended by my post. My comments were intended to be general in nature and not targeted at you specifically. Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was criticizing you. Each of our situations is unique and all of us would be wise to remember that when we respond to posts. IMO. Others may not agree with me and that's ok too. Although I am human so I will probably like you (meaning everyone, not just NYM) better if you agree with me or at least are willing to agree to disagree.  :D

And yes, I realize that most people who read this will probably care less whether I like them or not. And I'm ok with that too. :)

Offline Not Your Monkey

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2019, 07:40:15 AM »
Well, you should love me because I totally agree with you on the role of FOO issues and the CPTSD angle to MLC.  :D
Beware "MLCers" telling lies.

Offline MyBrainIsBroken

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Re: Debate vs Discussion
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2019, 03:31:40 PM »
NYM, you're practically my best friend now! :D

 

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