[MyBrainIsBroken]

Great post Marvin! Thanks for writing it.

Good question too. I wouldn't have protected my wife as much as I did and I would have tried to have more meaningful conversations with her. But I don't think back then I was capable of doing either of those so I probably wouldn't change a thing.

[xyzcf]

I am a bit "thinky" this evening as we debate the "cause" of MLC.

A long ago poster, Mermaid studied and posted a great deal about

Anhedonia: Loss of the capacity to experience pleasure. The inability to gain pleasure from normally pleasurable experiences. Anhedonia is a core clinical feature of depression, schizophrenia, and some other mental illnesses.

An anhedonic mother finds no joy from playing with her baby. An anhedonic football fan is not excited when his team wins. An anhedonic teenager feels no pleasure from passing the driving test.

My husband exhibits anhedonia as one of  many "symptoms" that convince me that he is still in a crisis.

I wonder about drug use during his formative years. Recently, and it's not "new", the surgeon general has warned about marijuana use before the age of 25. A workshop I attended with an expert in substance abuse issues explained how drugs destroy the number of receptors that are necessary for neurotransmitters to cross from one side of a synapse to the other. We only have a limited number of these receptors, once they are used up, they are not capable of regenerating.Without the receptors, the neurotransmitters cannot travel between neurons.

And we have often stated the effect of stress.

Multifaceted reasons for the crisis to hit them.

The interesting thing is the stories of those who have come through the crisis...so perhaps it is more like the terrible two's or puberty that somehow, after a specific period of time, the body is able to get through that stage and move into a a state of homeostasis.

Of course, because there could be so many different causes, there is not really anyway to predict what the outcome will be...but in reality, that is true of all our lives. We don't know what the next minute holds do we ?

[RedStar]

Interesting post, xyz.

My MLCer definitely experienced anhedonia in the early stages of crisis; he used the word "numb." That is, of course, a symptom of depression, which MLC is said to be a form of.

He also had some drug experiences before 25, including but not limited to weed, and there was at least one quite severe bad experience. (To be fair, I also experienced marijuana before 25, but not often, because mostly it just puts me to sleep.)

Just for info's sake -- this was really just youthful experimentation, and he wasn't a user once he grew up (yes I use that term loosely at this point  ), and definitely not after we got together. Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised if his current re-teenage self has gone back to at least some pot now and then. 

[kikki]

Sudden changes in personality are not normal.  The causes are many and varied and can range from hormonal changes, infections,  thyroid disease, adjustment disorders, personality disorders and substance abuse, to psychiatric disorders, brain injuries, brain tumours to neurodegenerative diseases (including dementias).

Some of our spouses may be experiencing an existential crisis.
Others may possibly be experiencing a health crisis due to a physical condition.  The only way to know is to work your way through the long list of potentials, to rule out differential diagnoses. For that you legally require a willing patient. 

I knew the language to use to describe my husband's sudden change in personality and out of character behaviours, and managed to get him to seek help at first with a GP, psychologist and psychiatrist.  Because he clearly stated he did not agree with any of us and physically kept running out of the room, I couldn't force him to continue to seek help.  Seeing a neurologist would have been important to rule out many of the above but I did not have the power to make that happen and was clearly told that even though they all knew something was very wrong with my then husband, they didn't have that power either.  His permission was required, which he was definitely not granting.

Medical disorders are not set in stone, with so many overlaps and personal variables and in the case of psychiatric conditions/personality and adjustment disorders, one initial diagnosis may be changed many times over the years, to become something else all together.  On average it takes people 10 years to reach a diagnosis of bipolar disorder for instance. None of it is cut and dried.

Humans are not vehicles that get plugged into a computer with the 'results' displayed neatly on a screen in order to be treated. Sometimes more straight forward diseases have clear treatment and diagnostic pathways, but in more complicated conditions, that simply does not occur. 
Mid Life Crisis, is one of those conditions.  A willing participant in the diagnostic process would certainly be an advantage to eliminating many of the above.  Any diagnosis is a process of elimination and even then a definitive diagnosis may not be found.

Instead I am left forever wondering whether there was a physical condition that contributed to the implosion of my MLCer, or was it something like  an attachment disorder that left him suddenly indifferent to me and our children, when we previously had been very bonded.
The fact that I will never have an answer to that question, is something that I reluctantly accepted long ago. It will continue to frustrate me though, I do know that.

Regarding bvFTD, I believe it is good to be aware that it might be a potential, just as there is a very long list of potentials.
Not all bvFTD progresses. 
There is an anomaly called phenocopy FTD which "In conclusion, phFTD represents a clinical condition with the same behavioral features of typical bvFTD, but without neuroimaging abnormalities and no functional decline. Whether these cases belong to the FTD spectrum is still controversial"

https://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13195-019-0483-2

"Related to the issue of clinical misdiagnoses based on the FTDC criteria and further complicating the picture, a condition mimicking bvFTD has been been described and labeled “bvFTD phenocopy syndrome,” implying that patients may display the typical behavioral symptoms of bvFTD but show no progression and no evidence of atrophy or hypometabolism"

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2019.00594/full



As the brain really is the last frontier in medical science, ongoing research continues.

IF  (please note, that IF is in bold) any of our MLCers have bvFTD without further degeneration from the personality/behaviour changes, it seems likely that they may have the phenocopy version.  Of course, we likely will never know who may have this condition and who may not.  None of them appear to be as curious about the potential as some LBS are. (note again, SOME). 

Most of us will never know what caused this major personality change and crisis in our spouse and we are all left guessing and hoping it is something where normality is able to resume.  For every person with that hope, is another that believes there are more potentials than one here. And that is everyone's own prerogative to decide. 

[Thunder]

Hi kikki,

I very much agree with you.

"Most of us will never know what caused this major personality change and crisis in our spouse and we are all left guessing and hoping it is something where normality is able to resume."

SO VERY true.  Most of us will never know what has caused their personality change.

All we can do is live our lives "as if" they are not coming back and make our lives the best we can.  It's a colossal waste of our time and energy trying to spend hours and days AND years trying to figure out what is wrong with them.
Bottom line, we can't fix them.  We can not help them.

But we can move forward with our lives and make it a happy one. Life is too short not to.
If or when they come out of this then we can deal with it, until then put your focus on yourself and your kids, if you have any.  Protect yourself, financially, and leave them to it.

[Velika]

Please, if you are interested in this illness, or any other one, I implore you not just to rely on the anecdotes of people on the forum. (Where the subtext often seems to be, I have seen this, and MLC is not the same.)

When I read comments like the one quoted above I have to shake my head. Aren't the people who come to this site capable of reading the posts, including anecdotes like the one Nas posted, and deciding for ourselves whether bvFTD or BPD or NPD or bipolar are worth considering as an explanation for our personal situation? We aren't sheep. Just finding this forum indicates we have a reasonable level of intelligence and persistence.

We seem to use up an awfully lot of bandwidth trying to protect people who probably don't need protection. Protect people from members who post abusive comments? Absolutely! Protect people from members who post opposing opinions? Probably not necessary. Why don't we try assuming we are all capable of weighing the various comments and reaching our own conclusions?

Speaking for myself, I'm willing to read everyone's opinions and anecdotes and determine whether or not they apply to my situation. I appreciate all of the information that is being provided. Please don't protect me from other's opinions and anecdotes and please don't try to tell me what I should believe.

I would like to think this, but unfortunately almost every thread on the topic seems to go the same way, with all the same people posting the same opinions. It turns into the same argument over and over.

People come to this site in a state of deep trauma, very very susceptible to other people input, and also very likely never having witnessed a mental health event. If they are misdirected early on they can lose valuable time.

It seems to more responsible to simply write, "Good point! Be sure to make sure to investigate any and all medical possibilities, especially if there is a family history or consistent symptoms."

Do we need to hear ad nauseum about so-and-so's friend's aunt's sister who had bvFTD, and it is nothing like what we see on this site?

I mean, come on! Maybe many of you are in your mid to late 50s, but I was in my early 40s when this hit with a small child. Other people come to this site in a similar predicament. For them, getting all the information in a timely manner is critical. Why make them wade through these same old arguments? Is this about helping people or about ego?

Why not just let someone write, "Make sure you consider other possible causes?"

Many of us are in a terrible position because of steroetypes about midlife crisis. People won't listen to us when we attempt to speak up. Seriously, what is the issue here to explore that this might be an actual specific illness? If you are going to say, let's let people make up their own minds, then why does any mention of mental illness then involve a pages-long disagreement?

Please, try to imagine that someone comes here with a very young child whose estranged spouse is having a manic episode that looks a lot like "high energy replayer." That person has no experience with mental illness and can only see that their spouse has radically changed, wants a divorce, and is having an affair.

Now imagine the consequence to that person and their child if they are told, this is a crisis, don't bother with a doctor? What if their spouse has just had a small aneurism or a stroke? What if someone gets hurt in real life because of this?

[Nas]

Velika, I’ve always respected your posts and I’ve always supported your right as much as anyone’s to share your beliefs.
As far as I can remember, my post today was maybe the second time that I shared that anecdote about my friends father. We came to this forum at almost exactly the same time. I’ve watched you for almost 4 years now diagnosed your ex-husband with at least 12 different things. When does it get tiring? When do you stop beating yourself up about what you missed or what you could have done or how things might be different?

I am still in my early 40s. And I did get my husband to the doctor. And what did that get me? No answers. No resolution. I am homeless with cancer and flat broke. So what damn difference does it make that I was actually one of the ones he was able to get him to the doctor?

You state that “ Many of us are in terrible positions because of stereotypes about midlife crisis.“ I don’t think anyone would argue that I am one of those people who is in a “terrible position.“ And I actually had my H’s doctor who did not believe that my husband was simply in midlife crisis. He believed me when I said something was wrong. Missing from your repeated arguments that these LBS who come here broken and desperate need to take it upon themselves to force their spouse to the doctor is your suggestion of how in the hell they do that. You would never have been able to force your ex-husband to the doctor anymore than the rest of us. And even if you did, if your ex has been lied to the doctor or refused further treatment, your hands would’ve been tied.

[xyzcf]

I mean, come on! Maybe many of you are in your mid to late 50s, but I was in my early 40s when this hit with a small child. Other people come to this site in a similar predicament. For them, getting all the information in a timely manner is critical.

The way I read this Velika, is that you think your situation is worse than someone who had this happen in their 50's. Or am I reading it wrong?

What we do say on this site is to build you life as though they are never coming back.

Focusing on the many possible mental health "diagnoses" that you have labeled your husband with takes away valuable time and energy from building your own life....and that is true whether you are in your 40's or 64  as I am.

[Velika]

I mean, come on! Maybe many of you are in your mid to late 50s, but I was in my early 40s when this hit with a small child. Other people come to this site in a similar predicament. For them, getting all the information in a timely manner is critical.

The way I read this Velika, is that you think your situation is worse than someone who had this happen in their 50's. Or am I reading it wrong?

Actually, yes, in many ways it can be I think, especially if very young children are involved. My son was seven when this started — and I will say, it would have been much, MUCH worse if he had been a baby, or three, or even five. I think anyone who has gone through this with very small children would do anything they can to help other parents of other young kids find the right support.

What we do say on this site is to build you life as though they are never coming back.

Focusing on the many possible mental health "diagnoses" that you have labeled your husband with takes away valuable time and energy from building your own life....and that is true whether you are in your 40's or 64  as I am.

Trying to get help for your spouse if you truly feel they have a medical issue is not the same thing as rebuilding your life.

In some cases, there are clear indicators that the person may be having a drug reaction or psychosis, or other issue. Again, given this information in a timely way, and knowing the correct language may help communicate this to lawyers, psychiatrist, therapist, doctors, and friends and family who could help.

If this hasn't worked for you or you don't relate — that's fine, but it may be important for others, especially early on. Why dissuade them?

I mean, why in the world would you possibly put "diagnosis" in quotations when you are telling people not to seek real medical advice? This forum and this thread is not medical advice. It is not a diagnosis. That is why I am telling people that if they think that their spouse is unwell, to pursue any and all avenues of inquiry that may help them if they wish, and not rely on the anecdotal evidence on the forum.

Finally:

Of course, after any tragedy, a person will rebuild their life, and in many ways their life will simply rebuild itself, all on its own. Everyone here deserves kindness and gentleness in this regard.

[Treasur]

Missing from your repeated arguments that these LBS who come here broken and desperate need to take it upon themselves to force their spouse to the doctor is your suggestion of how in the hell they do that. You would never have been able to force your ex-husband to the doctor anymore than the rest of us. And even if you did, if your ex has been lied to the doctor or refused further treatment, your hands would’ve been tied.

And that is the heart of the issue for me. What purpose does it serve if I can do nothing about it?

My then h was one of the few who did seek professional help, was diagnosed with severe depression and under psychiatric care for at least 2 years that I know of. It made no difference to his behaviour towards me at all. He was deemed to have mental capacity so it made no legal difference which would have been the case with a range of other mental health diagnoses here in the UK too. Without his agreement, I had no voice as his spouse and there was nothing I could do to help someone who did not want my help.

If LBS are in a position where their spouse will accept their help or agree to seek medical advice, fine.
If not, then most LBS will be better served by seeking help for their own mental and physical wellbeing which is something they can control.
And when the 'damage' is done, I wonder what purpose it serves to continue to speculate on the multiple potential causes of something that we may never get a definitive answer about. Now that my former h is my xh, any diagnostic cause may be useful for him in finding his own solution if he decides he has a problem, true enough. But I have even less of a voice in it than I did before lol..so it is irrelevant to me. I can understand that those with young children whose x/spouse is present may see it differently in seeking to protect their kids wellbeing depending on the situation.

I understand the emotional need to find some way of squaring the WTF circle for LBS so that we can make some kind of peace with accepting what happened. And it takes a while for some of us. I find now that accepting that I don't actually know is quite freeing - I call it WIW (whatever it was that happened) bc I do know that something big happened - it liberates me from thinking that there was some magic stone I left unturned. I loved my h, I did my best and I would have walked beside him towards seeking treatment if he had allowed me to do so. But that wasn't how it was and here we are.

Fwiw as a sample of one, I asked ShockSis about it and her reply was

Hi Treasur

My ex h kept pushing me to get help and was relentless in this. He would tell people in his opinion I was having a mental breakdown. I reluctantly went to see our GP who prescribed anti depressants which I promptly flushed down the toilet as to me I didn’t need them. All I needed to do was get away from my ex h.
I only went to the GP to stop his constant nagging about mental breakdowns. It was as if everything my ex h said about me or our relationship just added fuel to the justification that I needed to get away from him as it was his fault I was so unhappy.
So, in my opinion it’s a case of trying to get someone to do something they are absolutely against doing.