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Author Topic: Discussion Trust and vulnerability

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Discussion Re: Trust and vulnerability
#30: November 08, 2019, 01:13:47 AM

Yes I agree with all of this, it just takes the first tentative steps to try it out and that’s where I freeze unfortunately, never had a problem in the past but MLC trauma cuts deep emotionally especially if your a sensitive type to start with.

Yes we are definitely damaged goods right now. That is why they say that we all need to heal before jumping into a new R. That you are afraid tells me you aren't ready...like so many of us. Like most of us to be honest. I firmly believe that if/when the right person comes along (MLCer or other), that we will know it. But the scars do run deep and we are more guarded for it. Doesn't mean the damage is permanent. Just that we know things now. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And truly the main person we have to learn to trust is ourselves.
Very true Keep it together, your words are my thoughts and although people might think the passage of time has healed your wounds they can’t see deep down inside where the damage has left its mark.

I have tried everything I can think of to fill the void I feel and start again but it just doesn’t feel right. Although divorced for six years I still feel married and loyal to my vows.

The last year I have started to think of the good times we had in the past and savour the moments of triumph and pain, lasting memories......
Ultimately I not only lost my marriage I also lost my best friend and it hurts so deeply it prevents further progress in my healing.

I constantly search for the reasons that lead to this situation in an attempt to understand and find closure at the very least, but the more I look the further away it gets. No one else measures up, I cant replace her and I will always miss her.... she meant so much to me...
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#31: November 08, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
I am truly sorry for your loss, Jack, and all the painful emotions that go with it. In many ways, it is like a bereavement isn't it? Maybe even worse bc it causes us to doubt ourselves so much...but I have found it helpful when I am struggling with how to build a new life to consider what I would be doing if my h had died.

Imho there are two sides to trust as other says. Trusting that the world is full of good people who do not want to hurt you. Trusting yourself that you can handle the things of life and other things that might hurt or disappoint you or make you feel sad. The first can be proved through gentle trial and error; the second is more about understanding what you need to continue to heal and feel more confident that you can trust yourself.

There are plenty of different ways to live a good, healthy, happy life and not all of them depend on GAL medals or dating or having a huge circle of friends. Maybe a doorway through this stuff is to look at your life, the things you like and some things that aren't quite as you want them, and focus on those...so you feel better and stronger...then you trust yourself more. And you trust that when you want to feel good more than you fear feeling bad, things will shift in you.  That is my approach anyway bc it feels like it respects that - no matter what others think - I was truly devastated by this period of my life and rebuilding takes more time than people who haven't been here think.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#32: November 08, 2019, 01:36:01 AM
This is such a timely discussion actually. I have been contemplating similar things for a week or so.

Trusting, kind, empathetic people will always attract the untrustworthy.

The same need we have to fix and help people, is similar to their need to obtain whatever they can from us. You can sense they need help, a little understanding...the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if we are that person, if we just give them a chance...

The other side of course is that they can sense that you will give them what they want, with very little effort on their part. You feel like you are helping, that you are making a difference...but in reality you are handing them everything they want.

I for one am a person who will ''clam up to protect myself''. I retreat into a distant safe space, inspect and assess my emotions and feelings...and repackage whatever is not needed back into a box for the back of the cupboard. Then when I emerge I am more logical, no longer running on passion and emotion. I can think things through better, without chasing things like love that leads you into emotional traps.

For me the clamming up part is essential because if you don't retreat to your space you can't stop feeling the emotions.


In terms of giving or earning trust it is both. We tend to meet someone and have a gut feeling, or at least I do. Generally I know if someone is relatively trustworthy pretty quickly...and based on that you slowly build or lose trust as you interact...depending on your shared values.

But people are inherently selfish. No matter how much trust is built, some will leave regardless. If they are of the variety mentioned before, they will take all that they can with them. That is just the way it is. I know every person in the world can't be like that, but I also know they must be very very rare.

Ss said '' Trust is a risk, otherwise it wouldn't be hard to give. What is the risk? To be hurt again. What is the hurt? To show yourself again and be rejected.''

That right there is 100% spot on. How many daggers to the back can you take for being you? I suppose that depends on everyone's tolerance levels. How long each betrayal takes to heal. How much of you, you showed the person before they did it. Varying levels of pain, leading to varying levels of mistrust...leading to varying levels of rejection of self.

The stranger who flips you off never hurts you as much as your ex spouse flipping you off. One has a higher impact, because of the intimacy shared of yourself.

Gman ''I think people are just happier with chaos.''  I think I had a similar discussion with a HS member in Tuscany about this. Some people are just addicted to the rollercoaster, and if they get on a steady normal relationship they do not feel at home. They always feel a piece is missing.

Gman ''We keep saying no to them, but it gets old and it hurts when we wonder all the time when the universe will send us someone who doesn't suck''. I think the better question is...are you so busy looking at the chaos rollercoaster you are used to, that you can not see the person that may be standing right in front of you?

Finding Joy ''Trust will have to be built brick by brick''

I wrote about all this a few months back. Didn't think I would trust anyone. Let anyone in. Feel all those emotions again. It was impossible. Then the Universe slapped me in the face and told me I was wrong. You will meet someone that will make all these statements not true. I think it is a very rare thing to find, as so far I have only met the one who I felt okay with...but I guess the moral of the story is we think we will never trust again, never love again...never never never...and then it will just show up.

As to what Barbie said about the rebuilding of trust after it is so fully destroyed...well I believe some people have that within them. Some people can forgive a betrayal, clear the ground, and build again slowly. Personally..after so much damage, so much pain, I think it is easier for me to get a new plot of land and start something completely different. But that is how I have always been.

As for what Barbie said about ''I did not trust anybody. I did not fit in the world any more''. That is where I have always been. I always felt like I do not belong in the world around me. Until I find someone who stands out from the crowd...and then I feel like maybe I do belong somewhere. But that is a dangerous place to be. Only feeling at home with a person. Because that person can always leave...and then you are drifting alone again in a world you don't belong to.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#33: November 08, 2019, 03:40:01 AM

Quote from Mortesbride

As for what Barbie said about ''I did not trust anybody. I did not fit in the world any more''. That is where I have always been. I always felt like I do not belong in the world around me. Until I find someone who stands out from the crowd...and then I feel like maybe I do belong somewhere. But that is a dangerous place to be. Only feeling at home with a person. Because that person can always leave...and then you are drifting alone again in a world you don't belong to.

I can completely identify with your thoughts on this Mortesbride.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#34: November 08, 2019, 04:19:34 AM
Thank you Treasur, it is akin to a bereavement. In some aspects it’s even worse as they are still alive and although I’m thankful for that, knowing that she’s out there still keeps my wounds from healing. This year has been sort of emotional for me looking at family pictures and remembering the good times and bad.

If I ever had the opportunity to reconcile I’m pretty sure now I probably would not accept it. To much waters gone under the bridge and the trauma of it all has left me emotionally numb. A friendship with her possibly but then a friend wouldn’t treat you the way she treated me and I would be constantly looking over my shoulder and hyper vigilant and that’s no way to live.

That being said I am also eternally grateful to have had her in my life for over twenty five years. Meeting someone new and opening my heart again seems not only impossible but also unrealistic to me at almost 59 years old.

The conflict of emotions left inside of me as Lbs survivor has cast a dark shadow over my life and I see no way out of it. I’ve lost the innocence I once had coupled with my enthusiasm for life after witnessing the destruction of my family unit. So I look for the answer as to why this has occurred in the first place and find I’m not alone in this quest. Coming here and communicating with like minded people eases my pain and I am eternally grateful to RCR for creating this site.


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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#35: November 08, 2019, 05:28:18 AM
I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts..

Here's a question, what about a loss of trust with yourself? Has anyone experienced that?

My xw was the only person I ever really felt was my friend and an equal. Before I met xw, I hung out a lot with a nerdy crowd, that stimulated me intellectually and I was kind of the top of the pole there and then I also hung out with a more social crowd and I was the bottom of the pole there, since I am not the most social or socially aware person.

I just never really felt like I belonged anywhere I met xw. We are both really the same kind of person and I felt like I knew where I belonged and I had the only friend that really mattered to me. Now she's gone and I'm back to feeling like I did before we met. I tried dating and I keep meeting the same kind of people that I did before her, so I don't know if it's me or them.. or what.

Long story short, I have to get out here and live my life and .. I'm afraid and I don't really trust my self not to settle again. I've always felt like I've never fit in anywhere and I've just "made do" and I don't want to do that anymore, but I don't know what to do to change either. So I don't trust my judgement when it comes to people and social situations. I know I want to improve it, I just don't know how.

Has anyone experienced that? Starting over and not trusting yourself to make the same mistakes? I think that's what's really holding me back right now.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#36: November 08, 2019, 06:30:05 AM
Gman I can't say that I have experienced a loss in trust in myself.

I will say that the rest of what you talk about I can relate to. I wrote about it on my thread recently. Never really fully belonging to one group. Always having to fill one part of yourself with one group, and another somewhere else.

How hard it is to find another person you can be all parts of yourself with.

So my answer would be...for people who feel that way it can be hard. It can be hard to find a person that fits all sides of who you are, but once you do...well I guess you will know to hang on tightly right? :)

It will happen when it happens.

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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#37: November 08, 2019, 06:53:38 AM
VERY interesting discussion and some good questions/points here....

I'm going to call this "Musings from the Bear Cave" and warn you it is a bit long...

GMan asked about starting over and not trusting yourself not to make the same mistake(s) again..... As someone who has now been on the receiving end of 2 <x>LC's (xW1 was 30 so QLC maybe? xW2 was 46 so definitely MLC), I was left with a serious case of "WTF is wrong with me's?" and "What Lesson did I not get the first time around?" It took some introspection to see that the two cases, while having similar outcomes, are not the same. xW1 turned into a drug-abusing, raging, bed- and man-hopping lunatic whereas xW2 seems to be wallowing along in a pity-party of depression but it still led me to ask what did I not see up front that allowed me to make the choices I did... and how do I do it better the next time (assuming there is one)?  For me, it has crystallized into the realization that, in both cases, I was trying to be a fixer and THAT realization put a HUGE spotlight on my own behaviours and my own "deficits."

People tend to search out partners to fulfill needs, some biological (the need to procreate) some emotional (the need to feel and give love, to protect, to support, etc.), some intellectual (being able to have meaningful conversations about deep subjects), some based on security and safety (primeval/primordial needs). What level of priority we put on each of these things will often determine the "type" of person we attract or that we find attractive (NOT the same thing). By examining our own "needs" and how they relate to the world around us, we may be able to ascertain where we are possibly engaging in patterns that are not healthy (i. e. finding people that need to be rescued or "fixed"). Once THAT is known, we can then identify the feelings and thoughts that fgo along with it and those become knowledge triggers, much like GMan expressed where he sees himself attracting a specific type of person. The thing there is that he RECOGNIZES THAT before getting too involved, allowing himself to become vulnerable... That is definitely progress and growth.

I tend to disagree SLIGHTLY with OR's concepts and her example of the junk removal guys between vulnerability and trust but only in minutia... Hiring someone to do a job, by definition, implies a level of trust/expectations that they can, in fact, do a job. If there was not an iota of trust to begin with, they would not have gotten the job. Trust, therefore, is initially based on (yes, I am going to say that word) expectations.  By hiring someone to od a certain piece of work, she made herself vulnerable to disappointment if her expectations were not met (i. e. they did a crappy job or didn't do it at all). Of course, , in a business perspective, she also had the option of not paying them if the job was not done correctly so there is a set of mutual trust/expectations. This business view is, however, VERY different in my view to an interpersonal relationship.

On the personal side, trust and vulnerability go hand in hand. When we meet someone, we extend a little tiny tentacle of vulnerability, take a tiny risk by asking them out or making that initial contact. By the same token, we take that risk knowing that we may be rejected. In order to take that risk and to expose ourselves to the possible rejection, we have to trust ourselves that we can, in fact, cope with the result if it is negative. If we are not in a position to handle that rejection, to me, it is a sign that we are not ready to take that risk yet. How to go about getting ourselves in a position to open ourselves to that risk is a TOTALLY different story and it is as individual as a fingerprint. Some of us tend to be of the "Everybody gets 1 chance" and expect people to be decent humans on the whole mindset (I include myself in this category) while others are the opposite and view the world with skepticism and cynicism. Others have migrated form one end of the spectrum to the other and there are others that are somewhere between what OR called "Pollyanna" and that guy in the cartoon that ran around constantly proclaiming "We are all doomed, we're alllll gonna die."

How much of ourselves we expose then takes on a life of it's own. We expose ourselves, little by little (for the most part - I mean, we are all adults here now with various amounts of baggage/battle damage and not some love-sick bunch of twitterpated teenies), based on the trust we impart to the person we are dealing with. This happens in friendships as well as intimate relationships. With some, we find that thhe level of trust can only go to a certain point, after which the trust is abused or defiled and then we back off a couple of notches and assign them to, as MourningDove so aptly puts it, one of the "outer circles" of friends/acquaintances.  Others earn more trust, thereby allowing us to become more vulnerable (which then increases the level of trust - it is a cyclical process). The more we trust and the more we open ourselves to the other, the more risk we assume.

This is all then related to what I wrote above with respect to the healing and identifying our own needs, our own healthy and unhealthy patters because this giving of trust and allowing ourselves to become vulnerable and open is filtered by our own observations. When we have bee nable to identify our own patterns that are possibly not so healthy, we are able then to recognize the emotions and behaviours that are leading us down the slippery slope in time to avoid a major disaster. Doesn't mean that we are not going to get burned a bit but it's comparing burning a fingertip as to putting your whole hand on the griddle palm down.

I personally feel that a true intimate and loving relationship is VERY much dependant on mutual trust and vulnerability. THAT, for example, is one of MY not-so-healthy behaviours that I needed to review and modify - I was always the one that opened myself more easily so that there was a disparity in the amount of trust and vulnerability shown. I have learned what that felt like when I was doing it and now am extremely cognizant of when I tend to be going down that road. When that "red flag" pops up, I either slow down until the other catches up or I will break it off all together because I am NOT interested in lop-sided relationships on ANY level.  To me, I visualize it as having to chase someone... (Pursuit and distance). I'm very aware of that situation now and in the case I feel the other person beginning to distance, I stop where I am and let them be. They can then choose to quit running and bridge the distance, in which case, we can take each others hand and proceed forward, they can continue to run which then effectively ends the relationship, or they can choose to stop where they are which results in an assignment of closeness.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#38: November 08, 2019, 07:50:53 AM
Very good post, UM.

I think you're absolutely correct, identifying the problem is half the battle.

If you keep picking the same kind of person and keep getting negative results, then you need to figure out why you are choosing that kind of person over and over again, and make a conscious effort to look at what it is you are needing, or looking for that is not good for you, perhaps change what you are needing that is not working for you.

If that makes sense. 
You did that UM.   :)  Only you said it much better than I did.  It's self reflecting.

It's the only way it's going to change.
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Re: Trust and vulnerability
#39: November 08, 2019, 07:54:00 AM
Quote
I personally feel that a true intimate and loving relationship is VERY much dependant on mutual trust and vulnerability. THAT, for example, is one of MY not-so-healthy behaviours that I needed to review and modify - I was always the one that opened myself more easily so that there was a disparity in the amount of trust and vulnerability shown. I have learned what that felt like when I was doing it and now am extremely cognizant of when I tend to be going down that road. When that "red flag" pops up, I either slow down until the other catches up or I will break it off all together because I am NOT interested in lop-sided relationships on ANY level.  To me, I visualize it as having to chase someone... (Pursuit and distance). I'm very aware of that situation now and in the case I feel the other person beginning to distance, I stop where I am and let them be. They can then choose to quit running and bridge the distance, in which case, we can take each others hand and proceed forward, they can continue to run which then effectively ends the relationship, or they can choose to stop where they are which results in an assignment of closeness.

Um, I've always really enjoyed your well thought out, worded and insightful posts. I always feel like too much of a scatter brain when I'm trying to get my thoughts out. I suppose that's because this is the first really true analyzing I'm doing of myself in this regard and I just haven't been able to dial it in nearly as quickly as you and some others.

The above is true of me too.. I am comfortable with myself and how much I show to people, but you're right. It's always led to lopsided relationships where you're "chasing" the other person. I have felt that many times.. Slowing down, showing restraint and looking for that pursuit / distance thing is all new to me. Getting the hang of this, I think, will be a huge first step for me.
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