[marvin4242]

Marvin-you lost me a little bit.  But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile.  With MLC, I am pretty sure they know the consequences of their actions.  Maybe not to the EXTENT of those consequences, but I feel they know they are taking a risk when they run.  I also feel that is often why they try to keep the lbs on the shelf-as plan B with anchor checks and such.  But again, this last bit is my personal opinion with nothing to back up why I feel the way I do other than a gut feeling based on my own experience.

I wasn't clear sorry. I wasn't talking so much about the idea that they don't realize what will happen if they do what they do. I agree in that their guilt and wanting a "plan B" explains part of how they behave. My analogy was more about their internal experience of what they are doing, and how it is probably more "disordered" than ordered. Maybe a better analogy is if they are disassociating from their emotions they are losing a very valuable guide and assessment tool for behaviour regulation. What we feel is so much a part of our decision making day to day, from small to major things in our lives. The better analogy is if I lose my nerve ending for sensing burning then I would be much more willing to grab hot objects. Obviously I am still damaging my skin, but I no longer have pain and the reaction of sensation to "dissuade" me from doing it.

I know my wife has completely disassociated from the pain she is causing, and the pain she herself is experiencing. In fact as it seems for most MLCers she is doing everything she can to escape reality. So I go back to that initial comment: existing in reality of a situation is both an indication of mental well being and a contributor to it. Most MLCers have lost the plot. It doesn't mean they are "guiltless" or have no consequences to face, but depending on your view it is not quite the same as a fully volitional decision.

[terrified_in_TN]

Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.

What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:

In his example, he was educated in religion.  He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner.  So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'.  He came to the conclusion that there was no God.  He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.

As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally.  If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and even his affair partner, and so on.

There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.

-T

[Disillusioned]

Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.

What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:

In his example, he was educated in religion.  He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner.  So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'.  He came to the conclusion that there was no God.  He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.

As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally.  If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and so on.

There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.

-T

Good point.  My W said numerous times, before I moved out, "I know what makes sense logically.  But my heart is telling me something else.  I don't know which to follow."  She also spoke of an overwhelming desire to run, and not knowing who she was supposed to be anymore. She said she wanted to jump in front of a train.  She sobbed uncontrollably. She said she was sorry she couldn't give me what I needed right then.  She also said everything was about her, now. She completely changed her clothing, and did all the usual MLC "script" related things.  She was definitely in crises, and if people want to say everything she did was her choice, okay.  I understand.  Had I not been so devastated though, and so involved in my own turmoil, I would have viewed her as I now believe she was/is:  a broken person in deep pain, fighting whatever was raging inside of her.  If she was capable of choices, they weren't going to be ones with a concept of long term ramifications and they were only designed to try to find immediate relief for whatever she was going through.  If I had been in better control of myself, I would have handled my interactions with her, and my decision to move out, differently in healed hindsight. 

[Father5]

   Great read guys ! I have to say that in my opinion my wife didn't think I was going to take it so hard. She almost looked in disbelief that I took the news of an affair so hard. Then the total lack of compassion set in and I was in total WTF land. I don't know what is worse? That she knowingly destroyed our family and hurt me deeply or that she felt absolutely nothing about me at all. She does show a lot of shame and guilt now but in the beginning nothing, couldn't care if I was dead or alive.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

To answer your question:  I was 14 when I started.

I agree with you:  The tobacco companies I'm sure targeted children with ads and such.  And made their products highly addictive.

They still didn't force me to start smoking.  And they don't force me to continue smoking.

Sorry T. If I were to accept your argument then I would also have to believe that statutory rape doesn't exist. That there is nothing wrong with 14 year old girls choosing to have sex with adults. That a 14 year old girl is mature enough to make that decision. I believe you may have made my point but I may be wrong. Perhaps I should give 14 year old girls more credit for their ability to make life altering decisions.

Marvin-you lost me a little bit.  But in your example, you state to imagine that they have no idea that glass is fragile. 

Marvin's analogy is a good one but I'm going to take the liberty of modifying it slightly. At one time the glass item was very important to them, they placed great value in that glass item, and they carefully protected it. But the crisis they're experiencing has caused them to lose all regard for that glass item. They don't think about what will happen to the glass item if they drop it because it has lost all value. Do you think about what will happen to a McDonald's food wrapper when you discard it? Do you worry about the consequences?

It's hard for us to understand how that glass item could become meaningless to them but that's the effect of the crisis. And we can see that it's a crisis because the glass item didn't slowly lose its value over time, it was suddenly and inexplicably devalued.

But my personal opinion above is for lack of a better word my feeling for your typical garden variety MLCer who has no indication of mental illness, trauma, or any other medical cause for their behaviors.

My opinion is that this is like talking about a garden variety cardiac event that has no underlying cardiac cause. What?

You may not recognize an underlying mental illness, trauma, or other medical cause but my opinion is that it wouldn't be an MLC without it. It would be somebody who was choosing to behave badly without regard for the consequences. I know that people like that do exist but when they hurt people it isn't because of a crisis, it's normal behavior for them.

For the record, I do hope one day to quit.

I hope you do too, T. My wife's stepfather quit right after being diagnosed with lung cancer. He died 7 months later. I hope it doesn't take being diagnosed with lung cancer to motivate you to quit.

I used to tell people that it's easy to quit smoking. I probably quit 100 times. The hard part is not starting up again. I'll tell you what worked for me.

I was sitting around a campfire one night when the wind started blowing the campfire smoke into my face. I moved to get out of the smoke because breathing in the smoke was unpleasant and unsafe and then I lit up a cigarette and thought "Well isn't this stupid." I put the cigarette out and never smoked again. At that time I was smoking around 2 packs per day.

[Not Applicable]

In a way, I don't think any LBS is in a position to definitively say one way or another because none of us can be completely objective about it.

This is a good point but when an MLCer or ex-MLCer posts that it was a compulsion they were powerless to resist there are LBSes that still doubt which leads me to believe that some LBSes have already made up their mind and don't want to hear anything that doesn't support their belief. If you really want 2 plus 2 to equal 5 then it's a waste of time to try to tell you anything else. You aren't looking for knowledge or understanding, you're looking for confirmation.

Just because a cheating spouse says that a mysterious fog created a compulsion they were powerless to resist doesn't prove that what they say is true. They could say that simply because they feel it makes them look better than the alternative. They could say it because it earns them a legion of adoring LBS fans who hang on to their every word and pumps up their ego. You may be right that there are LBSes who made up their mind the opposite, but there are plenty of LBSes who want to see it as a compulsion who are more than willing to believe someone who may be lying through their teeth or keyboards telling them what they want to hear.

If we really want to get to the truth about our own situations, we have to be patient and wait for if and when our spouses give us an explanation/excuse for what they did and judge for ourselves if what they are saying is genuine or a bunch of BS.

[Not Applicable]

Marvin-Im not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but I think I understand what you are saying.

What you describe reminds me of what Joe Beam stated in his podcast on limerence:

In his example, he was educated in religion.  He knew too much about it to state that God wanted him to be with his affair partner.  So he became as he describes it 'an emotional athiest'.  He came to the conclusion that there was no God.  He changed his values and beliefs so that he could resolve the cognitive dissonance he was experiencing in order to be with his affair partner.

As he stated it, he came to his decisions emotionally.  If he had done what was best for everyone LOGICALLY, he would have returned to the marriage for his spouse, their children, families, and even his affair partner, and so on.

There does seem to be a complete disconnect from their emotions to reality during this time.

-T

Terrified-There is research that shows the opposite, namely that the best decisions made are ones where the person is using their emotions, not just logic. My husband has stated and it is very clear that he has no feelings for anyone right now. It shows in the decisions he has made.

If you can feel love for someone, you can't knowingly and premeditately hurt them. If you fear God, you aren't going to be disrespecting your marriage. It sounds to me like Joe Beam made a very logical decision. He did what was immediately best for what he wanted. That's logic. It's not emotion. Emotion pushes you to do things that are good for others even if you don't necessarily benefit yourself.

[Shockandawe]

NYM

I know my h isn’t the man I married. I also know he’s deep in crisis and I also believe his MLC was a result of FOO issues. Does he have the mental strength to deal with that? I don’t think so.

I also know my sister has helped me immensely and she doesn’t have to answer questions at all but does so because of me.

I was the one who told her of this forum and how kind and understanding the people on here are as they were going through the same things I am.
She is without doubt the most honest and least egotistical person I have ever known. She doesn’t have to do this and she works a lot of hours as well as giving her free time to help in her church and volunteers to help people learn to read and write. She is selfless and kind and she will continue to answer questions about her own MLC not someone else’s. I don’t know what you don’t get about that.
Sorry Jack and I will not be hi jacking your thread.

God bless you

Shock and awe

[marvin4242]

Terrified-There is research that shows the opposite, namely that the best decisions made are ones where the person is using their emotions, not just logic. My husband has stated and it is very clear that he has no feelings for anyone right now. It shows in the decisions he has made.

If you can feel love for someone, you can't knowingly and premeditately hurt them. If you fear God, you aren't going to be disrespecting your marriage. It sounds to me like Joe Beam made a very logical decision. He did what was immediately best for what he wanted. That's logic. It's not emotion. Emotion pushes you to do things that are good for others even if you don't necessarily benefit yourself.

NYM: emotions are the more complete assessment and understanding of “reality” than just logic, this is true. Assuming your emotional state is not fractured and you are not in a disordered state. For example a fear of a cliff edge is healthy when its working, but when it becomes a phobia where you can not go up stairs it is no longer the “best” decision. People in MLC are suffering from an emotional state of disorder, so emotional decisions are disordered. When we are in throws of emotional turmoil it is much better to make logical decisions.

My wife literally said the same words: “My head tells me this is wrong but I have to follow my emotions.” This from a woman who was deeply in pain, would change emotional states rapidly and completely unhappy. The consequences of following her emotions are obviously not going to be great.

I guess we all deal with pain and loss in different ways. Some of us reach for understanding, some of us want to blame, others try to control. And I know some (including me) do mixtures of all of the above. But I am with MBIB on this one: no one who is in a good emotional functional state will do what MLCers do. The harm they do to themselves and people they love makes no emotional nor logical sense. To treat them simply as “cheaters” or people who were “bad” is oversimplifying a terrible crises.

[Shockandawe]

exactly that Marvin
I’m with you and BIB