[OldPilot]

If menopause or andropause caused people to sleep with other people and lie about it, everyone would do it, but they don't.  There has to be a personality issue for that kind of selfishness, possibly a developmental stage that got missed, also imo.

I agree

[Disillusioned]

Choice

Is a choice made under duress a true choice?  If someone is in emotional turmoil, do they make choices that might be in opposition to their values?

I know I did.  After BD, I was nearly overcome with anxiety and depression and lack of sleep was a contributing factor as well.  I made several choices that were not necessarily true to who I was/am.  They certainly weren't marriage ending, but I felt like they were outside of my control. 

[Disillusioned]

 
Menopause causes many symptoms, having sex with whoever says yes and then lying to my husband about it, isn’t one of them.

Nah,

What does cause that, then?

I'm not nah, but lack of morals?  If you aren't in a relationship, you can sleep with whomever you like, with as many as you like as long as you don't lie to any and say they are the only one (still a morality issue, imo), no foul.

If menopause or andropause caused people to sleep with other people and lie about it, everyone would do it, but they don't.  There has to be a personality issue for that kind of selfishness, possibly a developmental stage that got missed, also imo.

Offroad - thank you for responding.  I already addressed the "everyone would do it" argument earlier.  It doesn't hold water for me.   However, you just followed up with personality issue or missing developmental stage, and on that, we can agree.  Nowhere will you find me defending the theory that everyone in andro/menopause has a full blown MLC.  I do believe there are extenuating/contributing factors or existing behaviors that make it more likely when combined.  I'm finding the "no relation between the two" argument befuddling.

And I also agree that morals/ethics/boundaries play an important part.  But as far as I am aware, whatever deficiencies my W has in these regards never manifested until after she was diagnosed peri-menopausal.

[Nerissa]

If one thinks depression is a cause of mlc then menopause is a possible cause.  I go to a professor who opened the World’s first menopause clinic and has awards for his academic work. He believe that hormone imbalance often results in people being prescribed anti depressants. This  covers pre and post party women, those with menstrual issues and women who are in menopause and beyond.he believes hrt/endocrine treatment is far preferable to anti depressants.

I am prescribed natural oestrogen and testosterone.  Unless something untoward occurs I will continue indefinitely.  I didn’t have particular problems- when I went to him I described myself as ‘the worried well’ but stiff joints, general lack of interest, and tiredness and anxiety seemed to disappear.  My skin is good (for my age)I

As Nah points out, none of these things means menopause made me lie and sleep with men other than my husband - in fact im now more likely to do so as   Im a  lot livelier!  but despite being a natural Phenomenon, it, like childbirth or menarche, causes more issues than are generally recognised because we all just get on with life and accept small changes and inconveniences.

Like others on here though, I don’t think it can cause mlc -It’s more of a general health/psychological health issue.

 

[OffRoad]

Also, I do believe chemicals,  including hormones, can contribute to MLC, but I also believe it's a combo of that and personality. Imo, the difference between people who think the world is responsible for their happiness and everyone owes them something and those who take responsibility for their own contentment. Some of group 2 also take responsibility for other people's contentment, which has its own inherent problems.

I think a lot of people live a life they were told to live without understanding why they live that way (follow the rules whether they understand them or not), then get to a point where they don't know who they are because they missed out on learning who they are themselves. They are who their parents or society told them they should be. When you reach a point where your body doesn't bounce back like it used to, you feel "getting old" creeping up. If you don't become yourself now, when will you ever? This is why I think we see the juvenile behavior, and the selfish behavior of those learning what is "good" what is "bad ", compassion, integrity,  honor, loyalty, etc.

[Disillusioned]

Also, I do believe chemicals,  including hormones, can contribute to MLC, but I also believe it's a combo of that and personality. Imo, the difference between people who think the world is responsible for their happiness and everyone owes them something and those who take responsibility for their own contentment. Some of group 2 also take responsibility for other people's contentment, which has its own inherent problems.

I think a lot of people live a life they were told to live without understanding why they live that way (follow the rules whether they understand them or not), then get to a point where they don't know who they are because they missed out on learning who they are themselves. They are who their parents or society told them they should be. When you reach a point where your body doesn't bounce back like it used to, you feel "getting old" creeping up. If you don't become yourself now, when will you ever? This is why I think we see the juvenile behavior, and the selfish behavior of those learning what is "good" what is "bad ", compassion, integrity,  honor, loyalty, etc.

Now we are in the same wheelhouse!   

[nah]

Now we are in the same wheelhouse!   

Which is also a choice. Attempting to untangle the skein to avoid the pain that there was an element of choice that our spouses made.

Yes, I do believe there is an element of depression, and there can be many factors that lead to the perfect wave of destruction. At some point, though, there was flirting, secret messages, plotting and planning before the bomb. It didn’t just happen and it certainly wasn’t due to the natural changes of our bodies.

An argument that shock sis likes to repeat is no one in their right mind would choose to go through the pain. Was her pain the affair, or the fallout when the grass wasn’t greener?

... and here come the pitchforks.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

It’s the not knowing the truth of the matter is killing me, it is consuming my thoughts and invading my dreams even now years later. I just can’t shake it out of my head. I suppose it’s the injustice of it all I can’t accept.

I will explain why I needed to understand what happened but this is my personal experience. It may or may not apply to anyone else.

First, figuring out why my wife did what she did helped me to realize that it was all about her. It had nothing to do with me, our marriage, or our family and there was nothing either of us could have done to prevent what happened. Even now, in spite of knowing what I know, my mind still occasionally tries to place blame on me but I know better and that's comforting.

Second, in spite of the BS I often read on this site about them knowing what they're doing and doing it anyway, I didn't believe it in my wife's case. We were a couple for 36 years and married for 34 years. I knew her better than I knew anyone and almost as well as I knew myself but I had no idea who this person was who was going through this crisis. I could tell that she was fighting the compulsion to do what she eventually did, I could tell that she didn't want to do it, I could tell that she didn't want to hurt me, and yet she did all of it anyway and I needed to understand why. Learning why she did what she did has helped me to feel compassion for her and to hold onto the love that I feel for her.

Few understand my pain, I don’t understand it my self to be honest. I have tried to move on and forget about things but nothing works. I try daily to increase my knowledge in an attempt to gain a greater understanding of life. I’m sorry if my questions made some uncomfortable it was not my intention but I can see others points of view and will keep the subject of my concerns to my self and private studies. It would be nice to experience inner peace again, to feel whole and happy.

Third, the most important thing that came from trying to understand my wife and how she was broken is that it led to me finally understanding myself and how I was broken. Investigating my wife's childhood and FOO issues helped me to better understand my own. Learning about my wife's crisis helped me to better understand the crisis that I have been going through. And learning why my wife is doing what she is doing prepared me and perhaps softened the blow when I was diagnosed with the same condition.

The one thing my research didn't do was to fulfill what was perhaps my primary goal. I wanted to find a reason to believe that she would eventually heal and we would be able to return to living our lives together. I was looking for hope for a future that included my wife as my partner again. Unfortunately, I haven't found that.

I think it would have been easier if I would have decided after BD that my wife was a lying, cheating ow who had been hiding her true nature from me and everyone else for 52 years. Then I could have quickly moved on and found somebody else to make me happy. And if that didn't work out, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I could move on again and find another one. Maybe someday I might even find myself with 5 ex-wives, like my brother, and still be searching for the one person who would make me happy.

I chose the harder path. For 36 years my wife was the center of my universe. I've decided to try to figure out how to make myself the center of my universe (in a non-narcissistic way). For a long time my wife completed me. Now I believe a partner should complement me, not complete me. Now I believe that I should be able to find peace within myself instead of needing to be with somebody else in order to feel peace.

I'm still very much a work in progress. I have a long way to go and I don't know whether I'll ever make it. The road I'm traveling to try to heal from my disorder and from my FOO issues is a long and difficult one even though I'm working with a couple of therapists who are experts in this area. That's why it's hard for me to believe my wife will ever be able to find healing on her own. But somehow Shocks's Sis managed so you never know. All that I know for sure is that I have a lot of work to do on myself.

... and here come the pitchforks.

[Jackolar12]

Disillusioned that’s great you have similar interests. I hope others will as well. I thought it worthy of looking into as my x was 49 at bomb drop and 3 weeks before she left she said she loved me to bits, I was so confused at this time but I new very little about the menopause only many men spend a lot of time in the garden shed around this phase I watched my sister-inlaw  going through it and my brother bearing the brunt of her rages, it was not very nice she had a bad one for sure.

I’m also pleased to hear your lawyers take and that there are other interested people out there. It makes sense at that turbulent time of change which also coincides with the MLC range of 40-55 that a percentage of MLC may be related to the Menopause and the Andropause and that’s the point I was trying to explain.My theory wasn’t well supported there so I thought in the sake of harmony to let it drop. I’m pleased others see things differently.

At that time your wife was right her testosterone was driving her altered behaviour and making her more aggressive you could have put up with that but when it turns into an affair it’s a real deal breaker I know, beyond belief in many cases. I hope your healed and doing well now.

The peri menopause is a dangerous period for relationships that have been rock solid for decades and you hit the nail on the head that an effective early diagnosis and treatment may well have saved her. It’s weird how they hate their husbands and look for another man to make them feel happy as they already have a tried and tested husband who loves them, it’s as though their perception of their husband and relationship is turned upside down and they devalue and discard them just likes narcissistic person would.

I have a possible explanation for this but it’s not quite there yet and more thought needs to go into it and it’s to do with the effects of hormones on the limbic system. Thank you for your support you have encouraged me no end and it’s nice to hear positive thoughts at last.
Kind regards
Jack

[Disillusioned]

Now we are in the same wheelhouse!   

Which is also a choice. Attempting to untangle the skein to avoid the pain that there was an element of choice that our spouses made.

Yes, I do believe there is an element of depression, and there can be many factors that lead to the perfect wave of destruction. At some point, though, there was flirting, secret messages, plotting and planning before the bomb. It didn’t just happen and it certainly wasn’t due to the natural changes of our bodies.

An argument that shock sis likes to repeat is no one in their right mind would choose to go through the pain. Was her pain the affair, or the fallout when the grass wasn’t greener?

... and here come the pitchforks.

No pitchforks from me.  I appreciate the input and all the different views.  That's what was bothering me about the "Sorry, Jack, this is a non starter" posts. 

I think, what may help some of us to empathize and understand the possibilities , is if we have experienced something similar.  I think I had an MLT or mild MLC, brought about by depression over a number of things, some marriage related.  Or, it could have just been depression.  All I know is that I was combative, sullen and withdrawn and I have to accept that some of that may have influenced my W, whatever the contributing factors.  At one point during this time frame, I found myself attracted to a woman at work, but only in passing.  As Offroad has pointed out, my morals came into play and I quickly extricated myself before anything intimate, sexual or defamatory to my marriage was discussed.  I'm not even sure that such behavior would have been reciprocated, so maybe that's a factor.  But, the thought was there.  And prior to that, for years, no matter what was going on between me and W, I refused to look at other women, or engage with other men about looking at women, including magazines.  I would be offended if someone, especially a married man, would point out or make an appreciative comment about a woman.  So, something caused a momentary lapse, or a crack in the wall, if you will.  But, whatever I was going through, was nowhere as severe as what I started to watch my W experience and I didn't have the horrible FOO issues she had to go along with it.

I'm I hurt by the affair?  Yes.  Did I do all the things we are told not to do, including begging, crying and promising to change?  Yes.  I've been angry, depressed, reflective, and disillusioned.  I've also leaned on my faith and found a place for forgiveness and grace.  I go there when anger starts to rear its head.  I have been kind, giving, and vulnerable to this person who still mostly treats me like poo on the bottom of her 4" heels.  I still believe, however, that the marriage itself, and my D9, are more important than my pride, which I've learned to let go.  I watch Affair Recovery on YouTube a lot, and it helps to understand how/why character deficiencies can contribute to this issue.  It is my hope, that eventually my W will recognize these deficiencies and stop blaming me for everything that happened.  At that time, whether or not reconciliation is possible (she did file for D, after all) it is my earnest desire that we can at least have an open, honest relationship, in honor of the nearly twenty years that went before.