Author Topic: My Story Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score  (Read 427 times)

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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My Story Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« on: November 15, 2019, 10:29:55 PM »
Here are previous parts:

Alvin's 1st (New guy - wife having MLC or just resentment?): https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10874.0;all
Alvin's 2nd (To be or not to be, that is the question):  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11031.0;all
Alvin's 3rd (Doctor Doctor please): https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11076.0;all
Alvin's 4th (Difficult to Cure): https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11127.0;all

This new topic carries on with theme of great songs, and since this is "the fifth" it has to be something epic....  Ghost love score (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L21dXQMNOQs) is epic song by Nightwish, and the lyrics say a lot:

Quote
We used to swim the same moonlight waters
Oceans away from the wakeful day

My fall will be for you
My fall will be for you
My love will be in you
If you be the one to cut me
I'll bleed forever

Scent of the sea before waking afterwards
Brings me to thee
Into the blue memory

My fall will be for you

Into the blue memory

A siren from the deep came to me
Sang my name my longing
Still I write my songs about that dream of mine
Worth everything I may ever be

The Child will be born again
That siren carried him to me
First of them true lovers
Singing on the shoulders of an angel
Without care for love n' loss

Bring me home or leave me be
My love in the dark heart of the night
I have lost the path before me
the one behind will lead me

Take me
Cure me
Kill me
Bring me home
Every way
Every day
Just another loop in the hangman's noose

Take me, cure me, kill me, bring me home
Every way, every day
I keep on watching us sleep

Relive the old sin of
Adam and Eve
Of you and me
Forgive the adoring beast

Redeem me into childhood
Show me myself without the shell
Like the advent of May
I'll be there when you say
Time to never hold our love

My fall will be for you
My fall will be for you
My love will be in you


Anyway, where things are now with me and W....

I've set course for my personal recovery and growth...
I'm hopefully winning battle over anxiety.
I'm spending a lot of time with mindfulness and other self-development (mind and body). 
I'm spending time with kids/family, building bonds that are stronger than ever. 
I'm reworking the home - regardless of what the future brings, it will benefit me. 
I'm putting time to professional development - I used to be 'a rockstar' with my profession before I got married, but then I gave up all those BIG dreams for the family and love; now I'm dusting off all of it.
I'm on a mission to become a radiant, secure person.
Sometimes I get sidetracked from my route (thanks to nutty head), but I know what I'll be when I'm done and where I'm going. 


Where's she...
IMHO lost. Even more than I.
IMHO in need of professional help (more than ever), but stubbornly refusing it.
IMHO  more open and honest than ever, but still carrying a mask to hide her true thinking and feelings.
IMHO more exhausted than ever, constant talks of the brain fog and feeling difficulty in thinking (close to mental fatique/burnout; if not there already).
IMHO not in love with herself, not in touch with herself. Not in love with her body, not in love with her mind.

Though I feel attracted to work the relationship, I acknowledge this is totally the wrong time for it.  I'm not well mentally. She's not well mentally.  This is time of personal recovery.  What happens then, time will tell.

Alvin, healing & growing & navigating on sea of life

« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:51:23 PM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2019, 02:19:23 AM »
Journaling... It's been couple of interesting days as I've been emotionally all over the chart. In good ways, I think/feel. 

Recently I came across with references to Byron Katie. She's one of these more popular "modern era guru's" along Eckhard Tolle and Brene Brown.  One of these things she's written resonated with me. The below words brought new clarity to my mirror, on how I view and see myself. I think this is half of the mirror in "when you change, you notice how others around you change".

Quote
When you do 'The Work', you see who you are by seeing who you think other people are. Eventually you come to see that everything outside you is a reflection of your own thinking. You are the storyteller, the projector of all stories, and the world is the projected image of your thoughts.


The talks with W have continued.

Few nights back we watched Colossal together (sitting at different corners of room though). If you like eerie movie with gigantic momsters and bat$h!te crazy moments, you'll love this movie... There was this scene were couple (played by Anne Hathaway and Jason Sudeikis) gets into argument which turns into brutal fight. I told W 'the guy is afraid of losing her forever, and is acting out of fear. And the gal is afraid of being controlled and is thus running away. But all they woudl have to do is share their fears to each other, and talk it through'. So I was seeing distancer pursuer gone bad... Then I asked W how see sees it, and she told 'the woman is feeling that her wants are neglected, she is feeling opressed and controlled, and she refuses to give control. And the man is and always been evil bully'....   Proving the point of the quote of above. We were looking at same scene, same surrounding - but it brought two different set of thoughts, both of them equally true/correct, just from different perspective. We are nothing but mirrors, and we only have eyes for the mirrored image of ours... Moments like these make my gears turn, not sure of her. LOL. 

The following morning she told she'd like to move her bed away from couch into living room floor (once again). I said I don't like it and will not approve it, and gave her a number of reasons why it affects negatively to life others. Then I suggested that if she wants to sleep on the floor instead of sofa, she is welcomed to move into MBR floor or to her study. But sleeping at what is supposed to be public premises is and will be just a temporary solution And she said she will work something out... I think she's beginning to feel the heat that is coming when others are not agreeing with her.. Then she finally gave me a reason why she feels she must sleep on sofa: so that S5 does would not feel too afraid to visit toilet (S5 used to use MBR toilet when both of us slept at MBR). I didn't laugh or anything; just listened and said thanks for sharing.  To me it sounds BS, but idk, why would she lie on something like this.  Anyway, her head her worry.


Fast forward few days... I shared an early morning thought (about something I figured of myself and my wants relating to relationship). And W replied by telling she's still doing and struggling with 'basic stuff' - who creates our emotions etc. Then she brought up (and this she has said before), that the world becomes meaningless, $h!tety place if our actions and feelings don't have any guaranteed affect/result on feelings or actions of others, and she does not want to believe in it. That others can feel great or $h!tety regardless of how she feels or treats them... I think she's facing her inner demon here.  Her way of controlling 'insecurity and low self-esteem' is and has been to put a mask on, to bottle up feelings, to please others. Not sure how long it has been since she's shown the 'genuine her' to outside world, but right now I feel like I'm watching something very frightened (and exhausted) peeking out, and then running away back into hide. 

Then she asked time to process, and asked me to help to make her understand. And I agreed... I don't know why she's asking time. Maybe she feels/acknowledgess my distress, maybe she can see that I'm now detaching from her and moving onwards with/without her. But I'm not running away wildly, I have plan that I follow and adjust....  I don't like the idea of becoming her shrink/guide, but since she refuses professional help, all I can do is give her something I think would help her.   Thus I made her a simple single-sheet that contained everything there is to know of how emotions work.  And she's read it few times by now.

She's not talked of it apart of two things:

1) "I can see the words, but I don't understand all of them. This is so hard'. 
Besides two words, 'empathy and sympathy', all of the text/images I did was what I consider "common language'. I wrote it like I would explain these things to 10 year old.

2) She also asked "does it matter if she believes in different thing than I", and I told her no. It does not matter... 
Maybe there are many ways that lead her discovering what she must become. All I know is that the road I have shared to her works for me. I want her to choose her own way, of her own free will. If she must explore, then so be it. I will wait for some time.



As for me... Anxiety. Still going down. There's still some of it, but I can feel it reducing day by day. I've done the YourPersonality test, and my anxiety level has dropped by one whole unit. It's still higher than preferred/average, but I'm not stopping anymore. I know where I'm heading and how to get there.

Interestingly, as my anxiety has been going away, I've also found myself grieving this situation in all new way.  I've started building three different photobooks: "the home we had", "the marriage we had", "the family we had" - which I see as part of grieving process and "farewell package of old relationship. Basically each of these books highlighting the good parts of common life we used to share.  And if things turn up for the better, they can show the strength we had and can become a foundation upon which to build new thingie.  And yes, there's been the feeling of loss in the process. I have cried out aloud and in tears when looking at things we have, eventually accepting the reality that it might not be there for long, and then comforting myself.  I'm healing and moving forward... Very likely I will give her the first book ("the home we had") sometime next spring.  It would also mark the point where I will list our home for sale, and share the kids my perspective of the situation.

I've been thinking love... They say love doesn't expect anything from other. So am I not in love because I feel I want things from her? I spent number of early morning hours digging into myself, and I was able to establish a formula for what I look from marriage. I call it "marriage = 4+2".  The four parts that we can 'make' all alone are  1) love 2) trust 3) parenting 4) family. The two parts where partner is required are +1) relationship +2) intimacy.  For me our marriage was 4+2/4+2, now it is at 3+0/4+2.... It is not love that I want. I love her regardless of what she does or doesn't . What I crave from her are the "making together" parts: relationship and intimacy.

Christmas... I've been doing all sorts of Christmas preparations.  Putting up some lights. Cleaning (all the floors have been waxed, bathroom is all cleaned up).  Crafting greeting cards.  Listening some carrols...  I'm definitely getting into spirit.... Kids are loving it. But they also dislike my announcement that I'm doing some things differently this year. Every time they say "I want it like always", I get a stab in my hear because I acknowledge this might very well be the last christmas all of us will be together.

- Alvin, healing & growing & navigating at sea of life. -


PS. Interestingly I realized W has not said a word of EA in good while, has not seen her for awhile.  So maybe somethign afoot in there as well...



Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2019, 11:45:05 PM »
Journaling... 

I think I've done/achieved the 'impossible'. I have shifted my attachment type with W from pre-occupied attachment type to secure attachment type. Woo-hoo!!! Anxiety level has dropped another few units (within a week), and I am now firmly in middle of "secure quadrant" with my relationship with W. Another woo-hoo!!!  Next step is maintaining the current status (maybe even enhancing it), and sticking with my plans.  I feel that my energy levels are increasing daily (as I'm no longer thinking W 24/7, but putting it on me; she only gets some random worry/thinking). And there is new kind of assertiviness in my thinking and decision making :)  I acknowledge I am not fully done yet, but after 9 months of anxiety and 'god knows what' this is great place to be.   

When on gym yesterday morning, something VERY unlikely happened. I landed up with new client/customer (and possible friendship) straight of nowhere... This guy has a lab next to gym I go, and he phoned my work number for services (on saturday morning), introduces himself and his business, and then said 'I'm at location x if you want to come and meet', and I just said 'actually I'm right outside your door already'   Eventually we headed out for two hour talk over business and life... It was REALLY nice,and I'm definitely looking up what this brings along.  It is kind of nice to get back to enjoying 'positive things of life'.

G19 has been having severe issues with her back (again with doctors and therapy), and we've been communicating lot more often than the normal once/twice a day.  Occasionally (once or twice a week) G19 phones to W and tries to unload some to her as well (but with MLCr level of empathy it does not end well) ...  Anyway, W eventually decided to gift G19 a piece of "life advice": do not stress over school or life....  And then W told how she had severe physical symptoms due to stress/anxiety during highschool years, and she sees the same in G19s current situation. That stress is the cause of G19s back pains, same way as it blew up my health (which actually turned out to by $h!tety genes) - as hindsight I can think what we see in others is reflection of our own mirror/fears....  Anyway, then W told that only when she learned to "let go",  her physical symptoms disappeared. I have faint memory this is something she told me when we started living together, but guess I forgot it totally and propably never understood it well before this...  This may well be the fear that is keeping W in limbo, that is sabotaging her life.  That if she goes after things in life, tries to achieve something, tries to change something, her mind/body will fail. I feel bit sad for her.

As my brains have cleared up from anxiety, I've been getting few virtual smacks of 2x4s ....  I have realized that W's (way earlier) mention of this being my second chance with her is BS... No matter which way I look/think of it, all logic runs to dead end. Second chance comes from giving thing a try.  Like so many times with MLCrs words and actions do not match.  It is very much possible she believes so inside her own head, but none or very little of it converts to actions....  I think I've also finally realized one part why she's fallen out of love. Her wow never included the 'till death due us apart' part. I didn't mind it back then, but now I get that it may be part of the "I'm not good enough" story  she's been telling herself most of her life. 

All of this bat$h!te, hers and mine, comes down to beliefs (stories) we have carried most of lives, told to ourselves.  And until we face and challenge our beliefs, we remain broken.

What a tragedy it is that broken attracts broken. But maybe that is how we all must come and learn to accept and appreciate imperfections of life, to feel the empathy, and eventually heal. 

Alvin, healing & growing & navigating at sea of life.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 11:52:37 PM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2019, 11:34:51 AM »
Very interesting Alvin.....

It sounds like you've gotten to another plateau of climbing out of the pit. Right on man!!! Congrats!!!
We all talk about improving, and you're doing it!!! Bravo!!!

W will see you climbing out, and follow, or not. Good thing showing her the way!!

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 02:12:58 PM »
Journaling...

Things are changing rapidly inside me. It is hard to explain other than feeling the change, and being surprised how quickly (even on my scale) emotions shift . Anxiety is still gone, and I've had couple of lengthy dates with grief. I've been finally properly mourning the death of relationship and intimacy in my marriage, letting those parts go. I've have cried and howled, but ive also finally given myself the grace, the forgiveness,  the compassion, the love, and the gratefulness you would give when you get over the loss of the most important thing in your life. I think dr. Seuss nailed it with "don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened" ...  None of this hurts no more, there's just peace, and maybe the expectation of whats next in life.. And I know a new verse, stronger and more beautiful than anything I had before, will grow over time within me.

I think my change shows outside too, because over these past days a number of casual acquaintances have greeted and started to chat with me. Very unusual. Maybe humbliness of the heart shows outside. Idk. But it feels good. To talk of casual stuff.

My behaviour with W is changing.... I am getting "I am the prize" thinking, and i an putting it into practice. I am still kind to her,  showing love to her, but I'm no more begging her attention nor clinging. If she wants common future, then she's gotta do the work and show me how she chooses me over phone and other stuff.  As far as I'm concerned, we are back to square#1 with potential dating/relationship.

And I think W is noticing the change, but not yet understanding what has happened...she's given me two hugs straight of nowhere. Yes, glacier is moving (trying to make distancer-pursuer dance all over again). But I'm no more dancing... I asked her why she hugged me, was it for pity or why? She said she doesnt understand, she was doing what I wanted, but then I want it no more ... I then briefed her she needs to want the hugs for herself. To tell herself the story that she wants to feel loved, desired etc, and to dream I could be the person she would want to share it all... She seemed bit confused by it, and said she still does not get all of it.  Then she asked does she have to believe same stuff, and I said 'of course not' (but if we ever get to point of things moving somewherr, I will ask what she believes in - as I am the prize, and I want the real deal).

We've been carrying on with nightly romantic movies. She's now sharing same sofa. Zero touch  Talking and sharing the day at the same.

So yes, something seems to be afoot. But i don't have expectations here, at least not positive ones.

Tomorrow will be my IC. interesting to see how it goes.

Alvin
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:17:09 PM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Thunder

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2019, 02:50:46 PM »
Hi Alvin,

It sounds like possibly you are really starting to let her go.

Which is so important for your healing.
You know you can not fix her.  None of us can fix them.  Only they can do that.

Hope you have a good evening, Alvin.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2019, 09:59:41 PM »
Thanks Thunder  :) 

And happy thanksgiving to everyone.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2019, 01:36:11 AM »
Journaling...

So, I had IC the other day. It turned out as very interesting, very intimate and very open session. I shared that I'm now feeling done & over with anxiety, and am moving towards grief and giving up from 'relationship/intimacy (expectations)'. I also hightlighted that I'm planning to stick with marriage at least for a year or two as I still love her, but that I do have a plan on how to exit the marriage if things don't improve.

Interestingly IC talked and asked more about W than me. Eventually IC said that her personal opinion, without ever meeting W in person, is that W is/was supersensitive person (empath) and she's now emotionally exhausted / burned out (she said it happens to empaths quite often). That if given time and treated with kindness, W could come back. But she warned that recovery from exhaustion and burnout is hard work and usually takes at least  twice as long as it's birth. She used a recovery formula that sounds very MLCish:  6-24 months to get over the worst and become midly co-operative/functional, then 12-48 months to gain moderate co-operation/functionality, and 24-96 months to gain fully operational mode...  So somewhere in between 3½-15 years - sounds a lot like MLC timeline... And IC highlighted it's a path she's gotta walk alone: she went in there all alone, she needs to travel it all alone, she needs to come out alone, I had absolutely nothing do with it. All I can do is be the partner that watches over the life we once shared, and hopefully would share some day.

And IC agreed that it is good for her recovery that I have taken the pill of acceptance, and given up anxiety.  And then she started to talk about what HS is mostly about - how to survive as partner of mentally ill person (if I want to). How to take care of my own wellbeing and energy levels (she loved the fact that I'm taking two of my girls to capital for few days of shopping). How to focus on "don't do anything stupid or hasty".  How to support her.... IC also suggested that we should get back on track with couples counseling either together or individually, but make sure the MCs know that she's down with exhaustion/burnout, even if she argues it.

So basically IC said a lot of the same advice as here with few adjustments.

Anyway, later the night I shared a brief summary of the session with W, and surprisingly it yilded something I consider fruitful. She expressed aloud the thing that keeps 'us' stuck ... She told she does not want to do things (like going out for walk with me) nor spend time with me because I make, ask and bring up questions and things that require thinking (like asking 'where shall we put the christmas calendar this year', LOL).  And I just left her with a question 'and you think it is normal'?... Yes, it was not kind, but I'm not perfect.

As I'm writing this W's taken a couple of painkillers and is sleeping away a headache. Once again.... I don't know whether to smile or cry when looking at her. I feel compassion and love, but I also feel saddness over the tragedy of what was supposed to be our shared life.

 
On the otherside of life....

G19... G19s health issues are beginning to unwind, fortunately. She went through EMG and it revealed she's got some kind of physical damage on her back. The specialist said all the symptoms suggest a disc issue, and she's off to further studies... She's also having troubles breathing at her school. Another set of tests revealed possible asthma and exposure mold, but once again more research and tests coming her way...  She knows that I'm seeing a shrink, and said she might want to have some too as all of these health issues are beginning to take their toll.  She's a smart girl, she knows self-care is vital... The next step is just gently 'nudge her' on the right direction, and make sure she gets that help.... On the downside she flunked her drivers test for the third time. But fortunately it is one of things where practice makes better... Interestingly, G19 said she knows W is not well. That W is unable to focus other than herself right now...  G19 is a smart kid.

G18.... I've been trying to enhance relationship with G18... She's a troubled child with her own mental issues (insomnia, depression etc), distancer lot like W (she can be months without any contact to us or her sisters)...  But I think my tiny attempts to keep regular contact are finally beginning to pay off. We are exchanging tiny messages here and now.... If G18 only knew how much I cared and loved her.

G15, G12 and S5....Nothing new/extraordinary in their lives.  S5 has finally learned to say letter 'r' properly, so need for further speech therapy. G12 is doing all ok at school and is excited about once a week riding sessions. G15 is excited about the upcoming trip to capital.

My brother... I haven't written much of him. We usually phone about once a week, and then I listen 30-60 minutes of him moaning hardships of his life, trying to encourage him that all goes well. The more I think and look at his life, the more I am beginning to understand that he's been depressed/anxious to some level most of his life (sigh).  Another thingie that just makes want to shed few tears. 

All of this however has made me realize how much I listen and support the lives of people around me. And how the only person I can unload all of it is my shrink and here/journalling. All of this is really not sustainable.... I think my goal for 2020 will be rebuilding all those ties that I gave up during marriage and raising kids. Reviving old friendships. Reworking family bonds (with my cousins). Maybe finding some new blood as well. And then to learn how to unload some of my stuff to people I care... MLC/LBS is the gift that just keeps on giving.


Alvin, healing & growing & navigating at sea of life.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Thunder

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2019, 02:15:42 AM »
I'm glad to hear you are talking to your IC, Alvin.

You have so much going on but I think you are heading in the right direction.
Concentrating on family and friends is a great idea.

I wish you luck, this is all very hard to deal with.  Take good care of yourself, Alvin.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 09:46:13 AM »
Hey Alvin,

A long, tough, and seemingly never ending road....

They move so slow, and are so messed up. Not fair to us, but we love them don't we?

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 12:54:50 PM »
Yep, all messed up and so full of guilt/shame/something. Not so surprisingly it seems to be what most mental conditions are all about.

Before heading out to capital with my girls I gifted W with self made Christmas calender. Nothing fancy, just 48 different types of tea bags (2 flavors per day) put behind daily boxes. W's reaction? Surprised, and then questioning "her own goodness/worth" (because she feels kids deserve Chrismas calendar only if the behave nice, and she should not be exception), and finally some kind of acceptance (self care is vital, and pampering taste buds with good tea is easy and cheap way) ... Some shame/guilt in there I think....if she only could change the perspective, and see that it has got nothing to do with her, but all of me. It is my way to spread christmas spirit and joy to folks in my life. It requires nothing of me but maybe half hour of my time, but it gives me a lot.

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Thunder

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 07:39:54 PM »
Very thoughtful gift, Alvin.

Hope you guys have tons of fun!
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2019, 12:54:31 PM »
Fun it is :) We've had tons of excellent food (going fancy dining every night, visiting some better bistros few times a day etc) , long and absolutely not serious talks, equally long walks (walking from one landmark to another), shopping around, and above all enjoying magical Christmas spirit.... This is dad and two of his gals creating some unforgettable memories. 8)

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Whyus

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2019, 02:04:25 AM »
Have fun with your Girls Alvin...  new, positive memories being made Right there mate.
Very Interesting what your IC said, its more confirmation of what we already know. Its not About us, its about them. They have to do it alone so back of and let them go through this with as Little stress as possible.
Not everybody can do it, its hard and may end in a D for some as the timelines are exhausting especially if you watch for signs of where they are. Not worth it as each is different and has a different pace.
Sounding good Alvin, try and Keep in touch with your bro (message to myself, im also guilty)
Married - 19,5 Years pre BD
Together - 21,5 Years
Me: 46
W: 46 (Acts 25)
BD 1: 10.01.2017
BD 2: 24.02.2017 OM 28 (now 31) Trainings partner. Is tolerated by LaFamiglia
2 Sons - 20 & 21
1 Dogs and a cat.
Own home . Sold!
Divorce Date 21.08.2018
T1  http://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8671.0

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2019, 09:45:59 AM »
Thanks Whyus :)

Journalling... Just arrived back home... It was surprisingly "grief-full" event.  I cried some last night (there was a false fire-alarm at the hotel last night, and I had trouble falling asleep again), I cried some on the way back, I cried some more when back on the home...   What I am grieving is the "loss of innosence", loss of my best friend, loss of our relationship, loss of "normal" life....  None of it feels "bad" though, despite tears I feel lots of grace and compassion and gratitude towards myself. And I acknowledge this feeling will pass some day.

Not so surprisingly W and S5 had both slept at MBR (=my) bed when I was gone...    It feels (and IMO is) so ridiculous.  She can (and apparently wants to) sleep there when I'm gone....  Despite all what I've gone through so far, and where I am at right now, it still does hurt to acknowledge that W chooses to sleep in different bed, in different room when I am around.... But I do get she's mentally unwell. I can only try to look at her crazy decisions with some compassion.

W came home few hours after my arrival... She looked exhausted. She told she's been working overtime every day we were away, and says it seems it is coming "standard practice" as they are once again one staff member short...  She told she had not eaten anything besides single meat pastry all day... Eventually I cooked both  of us a a quick 5-minute meal (tona-fish, fried vegetables, couscous)....  It feels bad to see her failing at self-care even on this essential level.

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2019, 09:53:41 AM »
Sounds like guilt and self-loathing to me Alvin,

She wants to be there, she knows she should be there.... but she can't.
Although you can't know, the really interesting thing would be to know what she feels when she is in there.
Sadness than she can't be in there with you, but wants to?
Relief that she can be part of the way where she needs to be?

I think it's absolutely great that she sleeps in there when you're not home. It says a lot. Shows she is thinking about it, and desires it.
They feel so unworthy.

Baby steps are big steps.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2019, 05:59:31 AM »
Standing - no doubt there's guilt and shame within my W. I  can only imagine how terrible receiving unconditional love and compassion and forgiveness must feel when/if you believe you are not worthy any of it.

As for today... I'm still somewhere in the land of grief/mourning, grace and forgiveness... Possibly this song here describes it all oh so well: https://youtu.be/igtI_c3KYv4

Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Thunder

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2019, 07:17:27 AM »
Beautiful song, Alvin.  None of this is easy, is it?

Here's a another song you may like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-VPzJ76D30
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 12:51:16 PM »
Thanks Thunder. Very nice song, and the text beneath the video hit right on the target. The "reason I wait" proclamation.  That pretty much summed up all my "silly beliefs" about love, and how I feel/felt about her.  Some of those are still within, some I have traded away to new "more flexible beliefs" just to survive. Hence I mourn the loss of innocence.... All in all I feel I am lightyears away from man I was last Christmas.

Journaling....

G19 and I had a lengthy phone conversation today. She pondered aloud Ws inability to make choices other than at last moment (even if then) or forced (even if then). Eventually I shared with her that W possibly suffers from mental fatigue/burnout, and as such struggles with decision making and stress. And that it can/will take years, possibly decade or more of the same as W is refusing professional help of all kinds ... G19 took it well, not at all surprised.

I also had good quick talk with G18 later..about us two, how much of the same we ultimately share... This is the most important blessing of MLC. It has the potential to make family stronger if we just embrace the possibility

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2019, 01:19:08 AM »
Quick bit of journaling  as Im having a day off ....

Did you ever feel like you were dipped into bowl of (self) grace and (self) compassion and (self) forgiveness? I don't know how else to describe this stage I am in. I very much enjoy soaking in this melancholic hottub of mine. I somehow feel/know this is part of my healing... The path of LBS is truly mysterious one, and full of surprises.

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2019, 05:15:15 AM »
Alvin,

HaHa!!!! Yes!  ;D

I know exactly what this is like, going thru that too (well, sorta... counting the days still my time off at Christmas).

Have you got the "Stop being so hard on yourself, you're just a man... a human" thoughts too?

The strong have to relax and let out a breath too.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2019, 11:04:17 AM »
Have you got the "Stop being so hard on yourself, you're just a man... a human" thoughts too?

I'm way past those thoughts. The gates of damn are all open, and all of it is coming through grace right now.  Very raw/unfiltered, very powerful, but also 'purifying'...   Possibly the words "come cover me" say it best.

Possibly the only thing creating confusing thoughts is that  at times  I feel VERY strongly connected with my "inner feminine side"...  It is hard to explain (especially since men VERY rarely talk/share of our inner feminine side). But maybe Jung was right about the Anima & Animus  (or God & Goddess) within us all...  Combine Mother Mary, Gaia, Phoenix etc. and you get the goddess within me. She's always been there, but never this powerful.  The masculine side of me does not feel threatened, just confused how strong and powerful it can be....  anyway, you can now call in the men in white-coat, LOL.
 
Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2019, 02:16:54 PM »
Journaling a bit more ...

I'm sure I'm not the first nor last LBS to have a weak moment. I watched a very touchy movie (Wish I Was Here) with G15, and eventually sent W a very simple message "sweet dreams. I love you. Thanks for all the good things you have brought to my life"... Few minutes later W replied "Sweet dreams. And thanks. You too have brought good, thanks for all of it".

Despite the situation, I think it is still important, possibly even good for my own healing from time to time say aloud the most essential.

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 07:00:59 PM »
Very good Alvin  ;D

Sometimes they can break thru and say that. Super good that's in her.

How do you feel after she said that back?

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2019, 10:24:22 PM »
Very good Alvin  ;D

Sometimes they can break thru and say that. Super good that's in her.

How do you feel after she said that back?

-SS

What I felt....

Confused... I expected an informal good night/sweet dreams. Nothing more.This was more (of WTF/something).

And wistful. Responding with 'thank you' to 'I love you'  says it all... She's still running, avoiding of expressing her emotions,  trying to be kind and polite in every way ... "I appreciate how you feel, but I don't feel the same way. Not now, possibly never.". That would have been the adult way of responding... 

Oh well, at least she tried to be nice.But back to oven she must go...

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

Offline Standing Strong

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #25 on: Today at 06:47:10 AM »
I'm not sure....... mine struggles with "I love you" too...... once I a while I will get one back, never of her own accord.... but I get the "Thank you" to ILU also (sometimes).
Mostly the reaction from her is "Why???" and "How can you love me??" (last night she told me that she is "unlovable"). Other times I watch her face, and she starts thinking deep: trying to search her emotions and realizing how confused they are. I think our love makes them happy, and then they try to reciprocate and .... studder studder studder.... misfire misfire misfire.... then all I get is a smile, happiness, maybe a giggle and then silence.

I just wouldn't be too confused...... she tried, and that sounds like a lot from her.
She shoots, she misses... but she throw he ball in the air..... that's BIG progress.  :D

A good moment Alvin  ;D

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMakerTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Alvin's 5th: Ghost love score
« Reply #26 on: Today at 10:54:39 AM »
Uh,you too get the "I'm unlovable" speeches..  I think it's the best metric for my W's mental health.  As long as as she thinks/talks something like that, she's mentally unwell.

But I think the questions "Why?" and "How can you love me" are very valid ones, and I have tried to explain to her that for me it all comes down to beliefs. Very long time ago, way before I met her, I have made myself an promise, oath, to love my spouse to day I die, no matter what. It is one of those things that remains unbreakable..    That said, what MLC/LBS experience has made me realize is that love does not require marriage or living with that person or limiting it to just one person.   They are just part of "gift" that comes with reprocical love... So if she got killed by falling meteor, I could still love her memory but fall in love with another person.... Or if she decides to ditch the good ole Alvin,  I will not stand and await forever for her to come back, but carry my love towards her in my heart and move on with my life, hopefully falling in love with with somebody else. etc etc. 

Speaking of trying... W and I had a talk of that today... I reminded her that it's been 3 weeks since she's worked the "fear ladders".   And she still hasn't answered some questions I asked previous weekend . And then I told this kind of behaviour offends/hurts me more than the fact  that she would say straight "I'm not interested/I'm busy/or something similar". That I feel shame and guilt over the fact that I have to remind her like a teenager if I want some of these things to move forth.  And then I simply asked her how would she solve the issue in a way that I could start treating her like equal.

Apparently my message did hit a nerve, as she came up with lengthy reply (in her modern standards)..  She said she tries, but I never notice the things she does (which I could interpret that I should possibly encourage and compliment her more often on success)... And that she tries to work with self-care (eat-sleep-excercice), with varying success.  And she's feeling frustration as whenever she feels she has succeeded, I have already moved forth to next thing.  She said she tries, she wants to try, but she's not certain what if anything comes out of it all...   And she acknowledged she MIGHT have "some kind of mental exhaustion" that is making her move slower than normally. 

Oh, and she cooked lunch for the family today. She said she thought I would like it for a change (as I cook almost daily)...

Progress?  Yep... Or like you wrote.... She shoots, she missess. But she throws the ball in the air....

Alvin
« Last Edit: Today at 10:59:23 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” — Winnie the Pooh ***

 

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