[Treasur]

Interesting point, NYM.
My gran used to say it was good to be open-minded...but not so open that your brains fell out 
Many of us LBS spend a great deal of time and effort looking through the MLC lens to try to understand and/or show empathy towards our spouse. Tbh it's complicated probably bc our LBS motives are not always so pure or selfless are they?

But what about the LBS lens, I wonder?
As valid as the MLC one surely.
But not much sign that even reconnecting MLCers invest the same amount of time and effort in seeing THEIR situation through the LBS lens....do they ask questions or just assume or prefer to try to ignore it? Idk. I wonder what questions a fully recovered MLCer would ask...and if indeed THEY get stuck if they DON'T look through the LBS lens? Idk. Outweigh my experience but your comment NYM did make me think that there are (at least) two types of equally valid lenses. 

[Thunder]

I think it's a bit unfair to be discussing a member or members, on Acorns thread.  This is a Discussion thread about seeing your situation through the MLC lens.

It's not about another person, who can clearly read your posts.

May I respectfully ask that you talk on a PM, if you have issues with someone?

I think Acorn would appreciate it if we stuck to her Discussion question.

[marvin4242]

I am around 3 years into this process and somewhere in the middle I would say. I had the opportunity to interact with my MLCer for the first 1.5 years, and had figured out what was going on quickly and mostly detached. I have found reading about MLC from the viewpoint of an MLCer, or more broadly seeing things through the “MLC lens” has had a very useful and healing effect for me. Those of us who want to stay in the illusion that we can restore/recover what was will remain stuck no matter how we look at the situation (there are enough examples here, including reading tea leaves from responses given). But there is another reason to get some insight from an MLCers.

Observing my wife, her confusion, her shifts, her hatred, her lack of empathy all were confusing and disorienting at times. Specially because I trusted my wife’s observations and judgement. I did realize that she was going through something and her lens was distorted. But to read the feedback of various MLCers from various sites has helped me confirm what I was seeing in her. This in term has help me ground into the reality of my experience, that I was not “confused” or am not rewriting history to make myself feel better. There is a consistent set of themes and behaviors I have seen self reported by MLCers which help confirm the crises in feeling and thought, which in turn can help some of us confirm that our experience was not the one that was distorted.

So it can be very helpful and healing even when people are moving on and not “stuck.” It all depends on what you are looking for or what it triggers for you.

[Not Applicable]

I think Acorn would appreciate it if we stuck to her Discussion question.

I think we should let Acorn speak for herself. I wouldn't be so sure that she would see it as irrelevant to the topic at hand. 

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I've read every comment on this thread and the thing that's keeping me stuck right now is the fact that I'm still not sure what it means to be "seeing the situation through the MLC lens". Does this mean researching MLC and trying to understand it? Or does it mean trying to see MLC from the MLCers POV? Or does it mean reading about other LBS's MLCers and comparing them to your own, looking for similarities? Or does it include all of the above?

I'm also not sure what being stuck means. Does it mean trying to go back to the way things were before the MLC? Are standing and being stuck the same thing? Are you stuck if you're not moving on to another relationship and leaving the MLCer behind? Or does being stuck mean that you're not GALing and growing and becoming a better person?

I can say that I was stuck before I learned about MLC. I was stuck on the crazy train. My wife would cycle and I would cycle right along with her. It wasn't until I learned about MLC that I was able to step back and let her do whatever she needed to do without letting it effect me. And I didn't learn about MLC here. I was first exposed to the concept here but I had to do a lot of research before I finally began to understand MLC. Was I stuck while I was doing that research? I don't think so. I think I was making progress towards the exit from the crazy train.

Am I stuck now? According to my own personal definition of being stuck, yes, I think I am. I define being stuck as still believing and acting as if I am in a relationship with my wife. I'm stuck because I took a vow to be faithful to my wife until one of us died and she's still alive. I'm stuck because I don't believe her decision to break her vow releases me from my vow, especially when her decision to break her vow was made while going through a crisis and it's obvious that she wasn't and still isn't thinking clearly. And I'm stuck because, in spite of everything, I still love my wife.

The other thing I'm not sure about is whether there's a judgement being attached to being stuck. Being stuck sounds like a bad thing, but is it? And who gets to decide? Who has the right to decide whether it's good or bad if somebody else is stuck? What gives them the right to make that decision? Does anyone on this forum really know enough about me and my life or any other forum member and their life to be able to make that decision? Does anyone on this forum have the ability to look into the future and tell us whether the outcome will be positive or negative for a member who is stuck? And if a member is hoping for a particular outcome, does anyone on this forum have the right to steal their hope?

I'm afraid that I have more questions than answers.

[Thunder]

Very interesting post, MB.

I agree with a lot of your questions.
What stuck means for some may just mean standing for others.

[Mortesbride]

The way I understand it... stuck is when you are standing and not moving.

You come here everyday reading stories, but change nothing in your life.

You tell yourself your MLCer will magically wake up in time, so you stop looking at yourself...you stop doing mirror work and GAL.

That is how I take ''stuck''.

So assuming that is how everyone views ''stuck'' then yes...it is a bad thing. Because you are leaving yourself vulnerable. You aren't changing and building your own strength. So you remain a victim of the circumstance...and even if they do come back..you will be a broken mess and unable to rebuild.

[Nas]

The way I understand it... stuck is when you are standing and not moving.

You come here everyday reading stories, but change nothing in your life.

You tell yourself your MLCer will magically wake up in time, so you stop looking at yourself...you stop doing mirror work and GAL.

That is how I take ''stuck''.

So assuming that is how everyone views ''stuck'' then yes...it is a bad thing. Because you are leaving yourself vulnerable. You aren't changing and building your own strength. So you remain a victim of the circumstance...and even if they do come back..you will be a broken mess and unable to rebuild.

This is basically how I would define stuck as well.
And in terms of the MLC lens, I would say attributing horrendously bad treatment of us to MLC and therefore either just letting it continue or not standing up for ourselves would be a detrimental effect of viewing things through an MLC lens. We see thus every so often, where an lbs is treated horribly, even physically abused, but doesn’t respond with the urgency the situation warrants (e.g., calling the police if the MLCer hits you) because, for whatever reason, they are focusing on the person being in MLC  rather than focusing on the facts of what the MLCer has done to them.

Luckily, we don’t see extremes like that too often. But we do see varying levels of financial abuse, verbal abuse, gaslighting, theft, abandonment and other terrible behavior that is sometimes not addressed because it’s viewed as part and parcel of MLC, as if it’s a given that one day the MLCer will wake up and then they will atone for their egregious behavior.
When in fact, IMO, the physical and psychological well-being of the lbs should always be first and foremost.

[3Boys4Me]

Nas,

Thank you for those comments - what an important distinction! It helps clarify being stuck for an LBSer, when you find yourself walking on shards of glass rather than eggshells with your MLCer, that’s a problem. When the LBS’ concern for the MLCer allows abusive behavior to persist that damages the LBS and/or children’s well-being, than that is “stuck” - by that definition, I would say I was stuck for about a year and a half post BD, in January 2019. I finally found my voice and decided to stop “fearing the monster,” that MLC or not, no one should be allowed to abuse another in the name of love or standing.

I imagine I am not alone, maybe for many it takes a long time to get to the place where they can start to see things a little more clearly, when that happens, the focus can go to where it belongs - the LBS and their children if they have them, so true healing and mirror work can begin.

[beyondblessed]

Stuck to me is refusing to move forward and away from the crisis.   To look for every tiny excuse to have some sort of contact or connection.   To stay attached, with the erroneous belief that given enough time,  the MLC'er will hit rock bottom and magically regain his/her sanity and see the wrong they've done and come crawling for forgiveness.   Now that's a fairytale.