[Mortesbride]

This is an interesting question. I suppose I have a bit of a different view on this as I have never looked at what has happened solely through an MLC lens. I came to this site originally after researching NPD and other things. My mind was open to looking for what the answer was, and I don't particularly care about 1 particular label..so much as the patterns of behaviour exhibited by both, what to expect, what can be done or not done.

I think it requires some amount of focus on the MLCer and the past to be able to heal and grow actually. But it has to be the right kind of focus. It can't be a ''see what you wanna see'' type of focus...or a ''so and so said it so it is gospel'' type of focus. I think you have to really open your mind to the possibilities, both good and bad...and look at all the flaws and cracks within yourself. To some extent you do need to focus on your spouse but I think it is a different type of focus. Like a sorta third party observer instead of an emotional feeling focus.

But after that sort of refinement processes, of sorting through the ''truth'' from many different perspectives (LBS, MLCer, children, family...friends) then your focus should shift to a ''what is best for me regardless of them'' mentality as you say.

So as for coming here to HS if you are no longer focused on MLC...well I must admit that I tend to come here less and less as time goes on. At this point I mostly come on to see where my virtual friends are...how they are doing...but more and more threads get behind. I read less and less. Sometimes I log on intending to read a few threads...then I wander off and just leave it sitting on my desktop.

Even in my own thread I find it has been more focused on me, and the things I am processing or feeling and I often forget to even post the ridiculousness of the MLCer. Two years on it just feels like the same old same old. Still a clinger...still a nut case... still doing what he has been doing. What does it matter what he is doing at any rate? So I use HS as a virtual brain dump...a place to process what I am mentally thinking on, and a place to catch up with people I have been following for a few years now.

So not everyone who visits HS is stuck...but...there is still some sort of focus on it. Even if it is in the peripheral of your vision...or used as backboard for your own processing. I imagine that will be the case for a very long time. Be it because you want to stand and reconcile, or because you never want to make the same mistakes again.

[Treasur]

Agree with what Morte wrote here. It's a process for the LBS, maybe different timescales and conclusions, but the overall process is pretty similar I think. And folks will engage with the HS forum based on where you are and what is best for you as Morte says.

Looking back, I think there might be three stages broadly re the MLC lens. The first is a kind of shock response of trying to understand the truck that just hit you, like a witness statement lol. The second is probably based on a belief that if you can name it you can navigate it or outgame or outlast it maybe. The third is when you focus on the behaviour rather than the cause perhaps and start to work out what is acceptable and best for you, your kids and your life. Not easy but life imho does get simpler when you get to the third phase where the MLC lens ceases to be so useful and you mostly just look at the behaviour without speculating so much on why someone acts that way......largely perhaps bc you stop looking at the MLCer and start looking more at you. And you probably don't need an MLC lens to look at yourself lol, although you may need other lens of course.

I think the 'stuckness' sometimes is around that second/third phase when, for longer than observable facts suggest often, we find it incomprehensible that a spouse would not choose to behave like a decent parent or a reasonable adult when they apparently have what they want, that they must be capable of compromise or telling the truth or showing some sense of responsibility or obeying the law or caring about others or frankly just behaving like other sane normal adults we have seen who are divorcing. Perhaps we get stuck in expecting some of that, not seeing it and trying to use the MLC lens to figure out what we can expect? Some find ways to stand while quarantining themselves from the worst of the behaviour; others do not or cannot.

Imho there is a liberation in just looking at the behaviour and finally being able to set aside the whys, speculation, excuses or mindreading. If someone ignores me, it is bc they don't want to talk to me. I can trust that simple fact when I can't know why or what is going on in their head at the time. If a parent does not turn up to see their child regularly, it is bc right now it isn't important enough to them. If someone threatens me, it is bc they want something and don't care what I want as long as they get it. if someone treats me with contempt or rage, it is bc they feel that way probably and think they can.

None of the whys are my job to guess....in time, some of those may unfold and some may turn out to be MLCish...but I can make choices based on saying yes and no to the behaviour I see. But it requires us to accept that this is really how it is for the foreseeable near future, that this is really how this person is today regardless of my previous experience of them, and that takes a bit of time to swallow bc often it is pretty awful to accept isn't it? The ex/spouses behaviour we share here rarely brings anything useful or life-enriching does it lol? Perhaps we get unstuck as we start to make decisions, big and small, without considering them at all.

[KeepItTogether]

Does seeing my situation through the MLC lens keep me stuck? I think for me, if anything, it is a constant reminder that I should NOT get stuck, if that makes any sense at all. Being on this forum reminds me of that notion daily, and I need that affirmation presently. Does that make me stuck? I don't think so.

I think there are some that seem to believe a new R is the solution to becoming unstuck. Maybe it will do the trick for them. But for me personally, I am healing now and would be NO GOOD in a new R. I still harbor some anger and sadness, and still mourning the loss of my beloved H.  Seeing him through an MLC lens allows me to have compassion and love for him in spite of all he has done. But my brain will not allow me to be taken advantage of by him either, especially since I have a child to consider.

Knowing about MLC allows me to be able to navigate the small interactions I do have with H. I guess any old psychological approach to dealing with any personality disorder would do in that sense. But really, having a PD vs. MLC is the same thing isn't it? Someone once said these MLCers are functional Narcissists. Maybe the "stuck" part comes when people put too much emphasis on the temporary part of MLC and feel their spouse will come through all this and they will live happily ever after. I don't see many of those people here though. I think most posters here are pretty darn smart--much smarter than me for sure. 

Then again, isn't everything temporary? I know I have changed throughout this process. And I will probably (hopefully) change some more--ie: grow. Hoping H will too, but not really banking on it.

Also, I've read the responses on this thread and would  have to say, you people are all so intelligent and articulate. I agree with so many of your POVs and am always amazed how seeing another perspective can be so enlightening. So thank you for all of your well thought out sentiments.

[Sam I Am]

I have been thinking about this.  For me, the answer is NO.  Viewing the situation through the MLC lens actually helped.  I didn't find this site for about 2 mos.  During those 2 mos I had already taken steps to "deal" with my situation.  My therapist was great at concentrating on me, however, she also didn't like my situation and just wanted to help me close all doors and walk away.  I knew something was off and we were just not connecting.  Learning about MLC, gave me things to consider. 

Coming across this site provided quite an education for me.  I then found other sites and for a few months, I dwelled on learning as much as I could.  Was I stuck then?  Maybe to some degree.  Looking back, NO.  I was learning and growing and understanding.  I accepted that MLC was a strong possibility.

Even now, I have a lot of dealings with the MLCer.  Knowing what I do know now helps me to recognize "script" and stay "detached".  I don't hang my future on every visit or phone call or text.  I appreciate the nice things when they do occur but also understand the times of distancing for what they are.  Not understanding MLC, I could have possibly fell into H's cycles and might not have focused as much on my own healing.  His close cycling would have given me false hope and then he would have snatched it away.  I might have considered pushing him away with the wrong behaviors.  Instead, I learned how to control me and not react emotionally.

As for coming back to this site....if that means I am stuck...then I am stuck and for the most part I am stuck with great company.

I for one came here for support and answers initially.  Later it was to journal.  Now it is still part of the journal (keeping it all in one place) and part about paying it forward.  Part about keeping up with LBSers that I have met along the way.  Part of it is recognizing the different normal that we choose to live with.



Did I sit and do nothing?   NO!  I learned to GAL.  Going out, doing things, etc.  Then I also learned how to work on me.  I visited my past (and I still do just not as much).  I faced many things and I know there will be more to face, but I won't run from it. 

I can see where my life COULD parallel that of an MLCer.  Knowing all this, helps me to avoid those mistakes.  The denial, the running, the anger, the cycles.  I guess you can say I am learning from his mistakes instead of creating my own.

Long story short, his MLC and being able to see it is helping me to learn and grow and become a much better, more tolerant, less volatile person.  My learning is not over.

[3Boys4Me]

Treasur just expresses precisely my process - at 2.5 years post BD, 2 years post OW discovery I am hanging in the abyss between phase 2 and phase 3. I know phase 3 is where I want to be, but phase 2 is where I have been, and only in the last couple of days am I starting to visualize and contemplate phase 3. Because I am so raw and mired in the process I have not been able to articulate it with anywhere near the clarity of Teeasur’s post, so I owe you a giant debt of gratitude for putting to words the searing ache and confusion I have felt. 

Separately, I am incredibly grateful for the MLC lens, I have no desire to rewrite my marriage, my love for my spouse, our 18 year long relationship or my belief that at his core he is a good person struggling with horrific behaviors and what I believe to be a true mental health crisis. When you witness a person having a manic break in your living room - raging and screaming heinous and vile  bullets in your direction, a person engaging in behaviors only months before he was repulsed by in others.  Without the MLC knowledge and lens I would have ended up in a mental institution myself, without question. Reading and learning about others experiencing similar traumatic events, while tragic, also was comforting. I am not alone. My kids are not alone. And we are not crazy.

[Treasur]

3Boys, i remember the fear and horror of seeing my then h implode in front of me. The memory has faded but reading what you wrote brought it back. Not every LBS has witnessed what you describe.

The tricky tough thing about the 'phase 3' as I described it is that it does push us to put down some of the excuses we make for them. And often that brings a time of anger or even hatred which challenges how we see them and see the past too. Which can be uncomfortable and a bit messy emotionally tbh. Even un-detaches us a bit bc we feel so angry about their behaviour but without being able to defray it with MLC 'excuses'. But if we let it pass through, we find our own balancing point I think.

Strangely enough I have had a couple of dreams recently involving my xh, his family and my parents and I have been raging with anger in the dreams. Not about what he did to me, but about how he treated my parents after years of them loving and trusting him, as if he long-conned them really, used them and then ran away when they/we needed him most. Last night - in my dream lol - I smacked his head against a wall  ...ha ha pretty angry right? But I know it is just my subconscious venting of anger that has had no place to go in RL. Bc it is true that he betrayed their trust too and threw all of us away under the wheels of his happy bus without any sign of remorse and while being cheered on by his FOO celebrating his new marriage and new set of ils like a kind of free pass....anger is an understandable feeling to have about that isn't it?

Phase 3 does bring that kind of bad vs mad internal tussle I think, choice vs compulsion that you see discussed on threads here....which can feel like a bit of a step back to go forwards....not sure I have yet reached a final decision on that other than words like broken and shoddy lol. Maybe bc in my case one of the other gifts of time is that I sometimes find it harder to remember the good person he was bc it is a long time since I saw him but I can still trust my own judgment than none of this felt normal or like the person we all knew. And I am not alone and not crazy either. Always worth knowing that 

I think 'phase 3' is influenced quite strongly by our individual LBS situation and the behaviours that we are still having to deal with. Actually I have often thought that the LBS Script, as well as the MLC one, starts out more similar but the patterns diverge based more on individual situations and characters over time...probably what generates some of the different POV s or a few of the spats here on HS? So my situation is not yours; neither is Acorn's...and putting down the MLC lens is part of that reality too isn't it? So no need to force it....these internal shifts tend to come of their own accord almost as we keep doing the best we can to detach and look after ourselves/kids and heal. Sometimes 'stuck' is a necessary healing pause for breath before moving forward....jmo.

[Songanddance]

I think initially that if we don't use the MLC lens we will not be able to look at ourselves.

I too live with my MLCer as does Acorn and so sometimes it has been hard to not look through the lens.

However it is a choice to not do so and to turn the lens back onto your inner self, needs, wants and growth.

Being stuck is sometimes a choice. It is easier to focus on the MLCer than it is to focus on ourselves. Fixers (like me) are notoriously bad at learning self growth.

When I came to this forum 6.5 yrs ago, so many kind strangers reached out to me and all urged me to focus on self.   I took their advice as much as possible because I realised that they had been where I was.  My situation wasn't unique but my growth and self love was.  Followed up by several sessions with my wonderful therapist and I learned that you sometimes have to use the MLC lens to help you understand your and your own growth.

Like a few of you if you take the lens away then my H is a narcissist, liar and cheat.  However this wasn't the man I married and so I have done my best to treat him with respect and kindness but without rolling over and agreeing. I have learned to see his behaviour for what it is.

Am I stuck - I think self growth for the LBS is a series of plateaus, peaks and troughs.   MLC is a series of peaks, troughs and plateaus. Do the two have to be in sync - no. Are they sometimes - yes. 
Does coming on here keep you stuck.  This is something my son said to me. He claimed that by being on here I hadn't totally "moved on" and dropped the situation and whilst he understood the paying forward he also thinks that it cannot but help deliberately revisit the feelings. 
And yet I am not the same S&D I was when I joined.   I am happier, more content with who and what I am and what I do than I have ever been.
I see being on here part of my continuing self growth and understanding. That said I usually only spend 20 mins a day max if I am in a daily contact mood or can leave it for weeks.  Choosing to learn and to act upon advice from others is healthy - choosing not to is not! 

Being stuck to me is not acting upon the wealth of advice that is offered on here.  It is not just about the MLC lens.

[nah]

Bravo.

This is the best thread I have read in a long time on this site. Difficult to pull out a quote because there are so many valid points.

I’m so guilty of trying to inject the drug of WTF happened to my spouse.

What was he doing? What was he saying? What was he thinking?  Did they get in a fight? What does that mean?  Did you leave you wife and come back?  How? What? Why? Did she do something, say something? Wear certain clothes? Date someone? Did it work?

Maybe it’s not his fault. Maybe the affair partner forced him to have sex with her. Maybe he has a brain tumor. Hey, there’s this MLC thing that will make sure it’s not his fault. Maybe he will “wake out of the fog” that forced his Pen!$ into her V@g!n@.

Ugh!!!!!

He wouldn’t give me answers, so I pressed on.

I befriended a wife of one of his coworkers to get information. She loved being involved in the drama and fed me a wealth of information. Unfortunately when I started to find strength, she did her best to keep me down. That’s why I’m now skeptical of some “good intentions” advisors.

She was one of many i latched onto.

This forum was a good tool.

I remember having a physical pain in my chest bc I craved my husband. I needed the drug that was ripped out of my arms. When the pain was unbearable, I would open my laptop and inject the drug that I was missing. No, not my husband, but as close as I could get.

I could inject his thoughts into my bloodstream by just asking the closest to my MLCer as I could get...

Another ex-mlcer that was on this forum. Not at all his fault, he had good intentions, he was also hurting bc of his mistakes and he had just joined a forum to write about his thoughts, just like the rest of us.


Other posters questioned why he even belonged here. He wasn’t a LBS, he was an ex-MLCer, maybe he should leave Hero’s Spouse as he wasn’t one of us.

Oh, how I defended him.

You see, those questions felt like they were attacking my husband. My husband a MLCer and this guy was an ex-MLCer, so he had the keys to how I would get my husband back.

Not only did he have the answers, I could inject what I needed whenever the pain was too intense for me to handle, which was basically all the time.

I guess that’s why the double account thread gets under my skin.

I can see the addicts lining up and begging for more.

I can see it, bc I was one of them.

[Nas]

Bravo.

This is the best thread I have read in a long time on this site. Difficult to pull out a quote because there are so many valid points.

I’m so guilty of trying to inject the drug of WTF happened to my spouse.

What was he doing? What was he saying? What was he thinking?  Did they get in a fight? What does that mean?  Did you leave you wife and come back?  How? What? Why? Did she do something, say something? Wear certain clothes? Date someone? Did it work?

Maybe it’s not his fault. Maybe the affair partner forced him to have sex with her. Maybe he has a brain tumor. Hey, there’s this MLC thing that will make sure it’s not his fault. Maybe he will “wake out of the fog” that forced his Pen!$ into her V@g!n@.

Ugh!!!!!

He wouldn’t give me answers, so I pressed on.

I befriended a wife of one of his coworkers to get information. She loved being involved in the drama and fed me a wealth of information. Unfortunately when I started to find strength, she did her best to keep me down. That’s why I’m now skeptical of some “good intentions” advisors.

She was one of many i latched onto.

This forum was a good tool.

I remember having a physical pain in my chest bc I craved my husband. I needed the drug that was ripped out of my arms. When the pain was unbearable, I would open my laptop and inject the drug that I was missing. No, not my husband, but as close as I could get.

I could inject his thoughts into my bloodstream by just asking the closest to my MLCer as I could get...

Another ex-mlcer that was on this forum. Not at all his fault, he had good intentions, he was also hurting bc of his mistakes and he had just joined a forum to write about his thoughts, just like the rest of us.


Other posters questioned why he even belonged here. He wasn’t a LBS, he was an ex-MLCer, maybe he should leave Hero’s Spouse as he wasn’t one of us.

Oh, how I defended him.

You see, those questions felt like they were attacking my husband. My husband a MLCer and this guy was an ex-MLCer, so he had the keys to how I would get my husband back.

Not only did he have the answers, I could inject what I needed whenever the pain was too intense for me to handle, which was basically all the time.

I guess that’s why the double account thread gets under my skin.

I can see the addicts lining up and begging for more.

I can see it, bc I was one of them.

All good points. I think for a time, we all seek to get our “fix“ but hopefully as time goes on we grow and learn and detach. And realize that no matter what, even if we had the answers, the situation would still be the same and there’s nothing we can do about it.

The double account thread I think perplexes a lot of people. Namely because it is a thread from a self proclaimed recovered MLCer. But the single account use confuses people and the only reason given for not getting another account is “I can’t commit at this time.“ even though they are posting regularly, which is quite a commitment. Which to me, and I believe a lot of others, kind of screams not entirely “recovered.”
It’s like saying “I want to help, but only on my own terms. You’re not the boss of me and can’t make me get my own account. I will post often and answer questions that I want to answer but I will be defensive to anyone who questions me. Anyone who suggests that I may not fully be recovered or have more healing to do is wrong and just bitter and their opinions are coming from a place of projection and anger. Anyone who suggests that I might be not fully taking accountability by stressing how much the “fog” had control of me is just a bitter, angry and stuck LBS who should just leave my thread.”

Just my opinion. I’m not bitter, angry or stuck. I’m not projecting my anger at my husband on to someone who has come here to try to help. I am a person stating how I see the situation from my perspective as a woman who is living her life, getting through every day, persevering through very hard times, and I am empowered enough to share my opinion and my thoughts, and anyone who disagrees with me has every right to. Just as I have every right to agree or disagree with anyone else on this forum.

[Not Applicable]

Actually, I have to admit the double account thread has had the opposite effect on me that it seems to have on the Kool-Aid drinkers. I used to feel a lot more sympathetic toward MLCers before that thread came along. But then as it filled up with lame, vague, deflecting excuses being peddled as the words of a recovered MLCer, it really made me have a lot less sympathy because to me it is just the words of someone who has zero comprehension for the suffering we have all endured. It may be an MLCer who wants their spouse back, but look at the whole situation, is this an MLCer who you would want back? Hell no. It makes me question other MLCers as well. Maybe this is just the stage I am at in the process as Treasur says, but it has been to a large extent precipitated by that thread.