[marvin4242]

I don’t mean to derail the topic, but as I read through all the various viewpoints one thing is very apparent: no matter who we are, no matter where in the process, and no matter how it all impacted us we ALL have a lens through which we view this entire experience. How can we not? So is the better question perhaps “is seeing your situation through your CURRENT lens keep you stuck?”

As to the MLC lens itself it can be deconstructed to whether we view our MLCers as good/bad, with empathy or anger, with boundaries or by completely acting like a parent/child relationship (allowing transgressions), as victim or in charge. I am sure there are other axis. Wouldn’t it better to consider whether each one of these dynamics is useful or keeps up stuck?

[lawprofessor]

So with that number I think it's .02 using the 1130 and 28?  My math seems a bit rusty this morning.

Still a dismal figure no matter how you figure it. And so many of those are years and years ago, so much so that I'd say there are few around that remember them which is sad since I remember many of them. 

Setting numbers aside,

Most assuredly, there is nothing wrong with standing and I've seen no one state anything to the contrary.  A woman I greatly admire, Mitzpah, is a stander who is nothing if not the epitome of class, grace, intelligence, and a stander in the truest sense of the term.

So it's wholly inaccurate to suggest this topic has anything to do with standing being wrong, and it's more than likely a strawman thrown out there to divert the topic into the old us vs them fight as opposed to having an intelligent mature discussion.  Anyone notice this thread was started by a stander who is reuniting with her husband?

----------------------------

I've completed 6 marathons and I'm not done yet. Based on this comment I guess my odds of reconnecting are pretty good. Primarily because MLC truly is a marathon, not a sprint. LBSes who don't have the stamina to handle a marathon are going to continue to skew the reconciliation statistics, not because reconciliation couldn't have happened for them but because they chose to drop out of the race before it was over.

Brain, I realize you have blocked me but I'm going to respond anyhow as your suggestion that LBS'S that make the decision to stop standing don't have stamina is ridiculous especially coming from you who has a nice little kitty cat MLC ex-wife who was never a huge monster bent on destroying you.

Watcher went through Hell and has decided to proceed with the divorce. In it, Loyal, Angie, Ms T, and countless others went through Hell because they weren't lucky enough to have a kitty cat MLCer.  I had my face put back together with screws.  Nas's husband left her with cancer fighting for her life, virtually homeless.  Yes, we all gave up the idea of standing. 

But does that mean we don't have stamina?  Not by a long shot. 

Its not a case that we didn't have the stamina as you stated.  It's that we had the strength to fight to survive and go on and thrive rather than the luxury of say waiting to complete the marathon, or even wallowing and bemoaning our fate.

To suggest that stamina is a factor is dead wrong and insulting.  That suggests just exactly what people are discussing on this thread as what's wrong.  That if one has stamina to wait, the MLCer will, with certainty, return to the LBS.  Even RCR does not believe that.

Again, I couldn't care less that you have me blocked.  But I won't let that assertion stand that stamina is a factor and some of us are just lacking stamina.  Instead of looking at that as skewing numbers, perhaps people could see that as a variable to be considered since I see no recon among those with the worst of the worst long term monsters.

Lp

[Songanddance]

The purpose of this forum is to help people transition to a new life without the MLCer.

No Brain - the purpose of this forum is to help people transition from the life at BD that they are confronted with to a life that is whole, healthy and secure for them leading to their choice of what they do in the future whether that includes the MLCer or not and that has to be their choice. 
Standing is a personal decision as is choosing to divorce.  That remains the preogative of the LBS and at no point have I ever seen any poster insisting that the LBS divorce someone neither have I ever seen anyone insisting that if you're on here you have to stand.   

[xyzcf]

Regarding trying to determine the percentage of marriages that reconcile...my first question would be what definition is being used to identify that a person is actually having a MLC?

Without a clear and standardized tool to measure the "diagnosis" of MLC, how could you determine what the percentages are?


Referring to someone's MLCer as being a "kitty cat MLCer" is wrong in my eyes and mean spirited.

Domestic violence occurs throughout all socioeconomic groups. It is a terrible and sometimes deadly fate for victims.

Suggesting that your own situation is worse or better than another's is insensitive to other's pain and I hate seeing it here.

I hate seeing all this fighting and arguing with one another on Heros Spouse.

Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.

[Treasur]

A good point xyz about the standard 'diagnosis' issue.

I do disagree though that the tone of this thread - or the previous one - constitutes 'fighting and arguing'. I am sorry if you find it so, but I don't know how one can discuss different points of view about some of our basic beliefs about MLC without disagreement.

The original thread question - imho a good and useful one - was about the effects of seeing ones own situation through the MLC lens and if it keeps you stuck. This naturally evolved into a discussion about both the MLC lens and what constitutes stuck or not. Which then expanded into a discussion about the effect of the MLC lens on different beliefs about standing and the likeliehood of reconciliation.

People - as individuals, with different beliefs about MLC from their own experience, with different situations - have reached different personal conclusions about their own choice to stand or their own assessment of likely reconciliation as a reason for standing. As others have explicitly said, I have great respect for those who choose to find a healthy way to stand and respect the importance of hope for all of us. But I find it a little disheartening if we are unable to discuss how our individual beliefs about MLC inform our own choices in the particulars of our own situations without being accused of devaluing standing as a choice or failing to accept that others may see reconciliation as an aspiration. Not all MLC behaviour is created equal. Not all of us could find a sustainable way to stand and live well much as we wished we could. Not all of us see reconciliation as even remotely possible even when most of us came here desiring nothing less.

I would like HS to be a kind place that honours the pain of this experience while also honouring the reality that different LBS are forced over time to reevaluate their perspective and hopes.

[terrified_in_TN]

Regarding trying to determine the percentage of marriages that reconcile...my first question would be what definition is being used to identify that a person is actually having a MLC?

Without a clear and standardized tool to measure the "diagnosis" of MLC, how could you determine what the percentages are?

XY, come on now....that is a stretch.  Now as I have said REPEATEDLY, we cannot accurate count statistics, but I think is safe to say, based upon the evidence we DO have available, chances are less than half.  But if you really want to go down this rabbit hole, then lets be honest:  Not ONE single person on this ENTIRE PLANET has EVER been "diagnosed" with MLC.  Now you are wanting to quantify something that isn't even quantifiable in the first place.

Referring to someone's MLCer as being a "kitty cat MLCer" is wrong in my eyes and mean spirited.

I disagree.  Now I have had discussions with other members, and the people I have talked to have all agreed you CAN'T compare pain.  One person may have a much lower threshold for emotional pain, and not quite as mean spirited of a MLCer and still be crushed.  You might have another LBSer whose MLCer is as nasty as they come but are better able to cope.  So I agree with you there.  But I saw nothing derogatory or mean spirited about LP's post.  I have no other idea how she could have posted in another way to get her point across.

Domestic violence occurs throughout all socioeconomic groups. It is a terrible and sometimes deadly fate for victims.

Absolutely agree!

Suggesting that your own situation is worse or better than another's is insensitive to other's pain and I hate seeing it here.

Agree as well, but again I didn't read into the post the same thing that you did.

I hate seeing all this fighting and arguing with one another on Heros Spouse.

Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.

Disturbing to the contributors involved, just select individuals, or just you?

I'm watching the thread, but I am in and out of it because I have been cleaning and now starting Turkey Dinner since I have my D10 here.   

-T

[Not Applicable]

I think it is human nature to compare ourselves to others. And if I were to say xyzcf had a milder mlcer than me it would not be unfair. Because perhaps if I had her mlcer rather than my own it would have personally easier for me to handle than what I got.

[xyzcf]

Hi terrified

Differences of opinion are one thing but the tone of this thread is deeply disturbing.

Disturbing to the contributors involved, just select individuals, or just you?

[/color]

I shall change it ....Differences of opinion are one thing but I find the tone of this thread deeply disturbing.

NYM:

Because perhaps if I had her mlcer rather than my own it would have personally easier for me to handle than what I got.

Do you know anything about me or my MLCer? I think I last had a thread about my own story in 2013. I don't add to my story, not because there are not things that have happened since 2013 but because I do not want to.....just like many other LBSers who no longer write here.

"I" am against trying to predict the percentage of MLCers that return home. I don't think that was the purpose of this thread originally and each time the topic has come up over the years it causes a ruckus.

"I" have not seen any standers, the few that there are, trying to convince anyone to stand. The perception is that standers are pushing their agenda, again this is my own perception.

Since many have commented on the difficulty to obtain reliable data then "I" dislike when stats are used that are not accurate. My bias being that it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end. Perhaps I am wrong, it may not have any effect and I certainly do not base my position on how many returns there are or not.

[terrified_in_TN]

...
"I" am against trying to predict the percentage of MLCers that return home. I don't think that was the purpose of this thread originally and each time the topic has come up over the years it causes a ruckus.

And THAT RIGHT THERE is the crux of the problem.  The way *I* see it, you are AGAINST being upfront and forthcoming that the chances of a reconciliation has a low probably of success.

"I" have not seen any standers, the few that there are, trying to convince anyone to stand. The perception is that standers are pushing their agenda, again this is my own perception.

And I have not seen ONE non-stander try and convince anyone NOT to stand.  It is a personal choice, up to the individual LBSer to decide for themselves what is best for them.

Since many have commented on the difficulty to obtain reliable data then "I" dislike when stats are used that are not accurate. My bias being that it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end. Perhaps I am wrong, it may not have any effect and I certainly do not base my position on how many returns there are or not.

I guess I have to agree with you there.  Inaccurate statistics should not be presented as fact.  But AGAIN, based upon the information that we DO HAVE available, I still believe that information should be readily disclosed to the newcomers so they know what they are potentially dealing with so that can make an informed decision based upon the available information.  *I* believe that concealing the information under the guise of "it may convince some people that there is no reason to believe that the crisis can end" can potentially be extremely dangerous.

[xyzcf]

Terrified, I am not trying to conceal "information".

I don't like when doctors tell patients the amount of time they have left to live. My experience has been that they are seldom right about it. Other people surely wish to know how much time they have left.

I don't like when the news starts to predict a huge storm several days before the fact when often it passes us by or we just get a bit of snow. People get all bent out of shape cancelling their plans and filling up their shelves with groceries "just in case".

Honestly and I truly am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see HS hiding information. I don't see anyone trying to convince another that their spouse will return.

What I have tried to do on several occasions is tell LBSers that they must protect themselves financially.

I'm just not seeing it terrified. People come to HS wanting reassurance ...especially they often want a rule book that will somehow influence the outcome.

I have told people..this is not about you or your marriage. This is his/her journey and there is nothing you can do to change what he/she will do. Focus on yourself, you will survive this.

If people read RCR's articles and form their own idea about the possibility of a return, that is their interpretation. RCR makes it very clear in her articles. Anyway, enough taking over this thread.