[Nas]

No not at all, Nas.

I think we feel the same way.  But MB question was do you think RCR is wrong?

Ah, gotcha.  I thought maybe I came across to you as though I was saying something different.

See, always good to ask for clarification. 

[Thunder]

Anytime!  I'm not always the most eloquent writer.   

[Nas]

Anytime!  I'm not always the most eloquent writer.   

Nor am I - especially when posting from a phone!

[Anon]

My personal take has been that sometimes newbies in the early stages focus way to much on the "hope" portion and miss the foundation of detachment, self care, self protection and actually living like their MLCers is not coming back.

Yes, and I say leave the newbies to whatever they need to get through the newbie stage.  Live like they are never coming back is not a newbie thought.  I didn’t have people here pushing me through the  newbie stage but I still progressed to the next stage regardless and the newbies here now will do the same.  So us non-newbies and old timers can relax and let these newbies find their own way in their own time.   Back when I was a newbie I would have been offended by too much advice and criticism of what I felt THEN I needed and wanted to do.  So we can all back off and let them be imo. 

RCR is not wrong.   I love her writings and Jungian based theories which make a lot of sense to me.  She might not be right either.  Is there any theory that can claim to be 100% right?  Of course not.   As a newbie I survived the early years without being led by old timers and without abandoning RCR’s Jungian influenced writings. 

I guess my point is,,let’s leave the newbies to find their own way with some gentle guidance.  If that’s not accepted then back off and let them be.  I believe they will learn and grow despite anything we can do.  I pushed away plenty as a newbie but I did grow and move forward as I was ready and not a minute sooner.   

[Not Applicable]

I'm going to put out two thoughts here.

1-I would bet that RCR would say the way some people interpret her articles is wrong. That they miss the whole point of them.

2-A few months ago I came across an excerpt from a TV program that RCR and Chuck appeared in, talking about his affair. Before I say any more, I want to add the caveat it was just a few minutes excerpt and reality tv producers can twist things to be unrealistic. However, the impression I immediately got from that excerpt was that Chuck didn't actually have an MLC. That it was just marital issues for him. Even the way the segment with RCR and Chuck was advertised made it look like Chuck had issues with RCR. I mentioned this to an LBS friend who felt the same way after watching the excerpt. And my friend then said, what if Chuck didn't actually have an MLC? What does that mean for the applicability of all of what she wrote to MLC vs. your garden variety affair?

I mentioned to an old timer later my thoughts and how I had seen this excerpt, and interestingly, the old timer had seen the entire program when it first came out and told me at the time there was discussion among forum members who saw it who were not convinced that Chuck had an MLC from the way he and RCR described things in the program.

Now some of the advice may apply either way, but what if, indeed, RCR's writings were based on something other than what others' spouses are experiencing?  What if Chuck was just your garden variety cheater who then went back to his wife when she put the screws into him? It doesn't make her wrong as her experience is what it is and that is what she drew upon in her writings, but if indeed he had no childhood issues as most of us agree are an essential part of MLC, and instead was just going through a period of marital dissatisfaction, is it actually even right FOR US to be applying her experience to ours?

[Shockandawe]

BIB

I agree totally with you. As a newbie I arrived here in a mess. I didn’t think it was possible that my h could have changed his entire life and personality and have ow but he did. One of the first people who reached out to me when I was such a wreck was Thunder. She was kind and compassionate yet encouraged me to start looking out for myself. She advised me in so many things that, at the time I couldn’t absorb yet, not once did she ram down my throat her opinions or insist that it was her way or no way.
I am a work in progress as are we all and reading RCR’s articles and experience has helped me immensely. The advice to take from them what you need and discard what you don’t is, to me anyway, the whole crux of the matter. Each person is an individual and each get through this at different time frames. As such, I cannot understand the reasoning behind certain posters who constantly come across as I am right and that’s that. Perhaps, in their own development they have forgotten the absolute torment being a newbie is.
Sadly, had I arrived at this forum yesterday I would have got out of here immediately because it’s the overbearing and cruel way certain posters impose their will upon very vulnerable and desperately fragile people. Mego in particular seems to be smacked down and put down constantly by certain posters and I don’t think that’s ok how is that being supportive or compassionate. It smacks of bullying tactics and I for one don’t agree with it.
My sister in particular took an onslaught of quite frankly rude and really quite insulting posts from probably the same posters you have blocked. What gets me is the fact that she was not acceptable because of her refusal to start her own account and with the, as I too see them, trolls, who could blame her for worrying about her own privacy. Shame really because I really thought she was helping people to realise it’s not their fault and MLC is a complete mine field. She always advised the LBS to focus entirely on themselves.
Brain, I have rambled on a bit but I understand and agree completely with you.

God bless you

[OffRoad]

Is RCR "wrong"? It depends on how one interprets "wrong". Is some of her advice wrong for me? Yes. Were some of the things she accepted from her spouse while standing wrong for me? Yes. Are her opinions wrong? Never, as no opinion is wrong, it's just an opinion.

There is no person for whom I worship all their words, but that doesn't mean their words are not valuable. Even words i don't agree with can be valuable. Knowledge is power, take what i can use and throw away the rest.

What I find wrong is when anyone tries to force someone else to do only what they want instead of allowing people their right to choose what they want to do, right, wrong or indifferent. Suggest all you want, give your own anecdotes all you want, tell people what the results of their choices could be all you want. Some people will stay stuck if they aren't ready for change, but my harassing them isn't going to change that.

I will say I don't get the "if you don't believe in whatever whichever site is all about, you should leave", either. What, because I no longer stand I don't deserve to be here? That makes zero sense. Maybe I'd like to learn some more about how to recognize someone heading into crisis. Maybe I'd like to viritually hold the hand of someone trying to navigate the Hell that comes after BD.

"Wrong". What a nebulous word.

[Treasur]

Interesting question, Brain.

Do I think RCR is wrong? Well, I suppose my answer depends on what I expect 'right' entails. Generally I think both RCR's articles and indeed Hearts Blessing's ones have many bits in them that explain some of the incomprehensible stuff that seems to be part of an MLC. Many of us, including me, have read articles and found ourself nodding or going ah yes. I am sure - as for any writer - that some was drawn from learning from her own experience although if I remember rightly RCR did a lot of research too. I think LP said on another thread that RCR may have written differently or about some different things if her own experience had included some different factors. And she wrote them at a point in time and now, years later, she may see some elements differently. And of course some of the underpinning philosophy for the lack of a better word, things like Hope and Unconditional Love as a principle,and the list you shared, are about her deeper beliefs. It would be interesting actually to see what RCR thinks about your question.....

 Is she 'right' about my former h? Idk. Was she 'right' about her spouse? Idk. (And to be fair, although I'm sure her h knows about this site - how could he not given the effort she invests - his voice is not present so none of us know if he thinks he had an MLC or not) But is she 'right enough' about the general patterns and shape of this thing we call MLC that it is generally recognisable to a lot of us? Yes, it seems so. Which is no mean feat for something so complicated and confusing. And a real sanity saver for many of us here.

I don't get the impression though that RCR has ever wanted to set herself up as a guru who knows everything and should be followed slavishly. Doesn't seem like the kind of person she is. I also think we find different things in the articles when we read them at different stages perhaps. And we all pick and mix to some extent don't we?

Your question has prompted me to think I should go back and re-read some of the articles.
I think there was a poster here called Don'tGiveUp who seemed to have an almost photographic memory and was very good at pulling out segments that might apply to individual situations. I think too that I remember someone else quoting him saying 'Which bit of the word crisis don't you understand?' 

And a broader question.....do people have 'favourite' articles? A top two or three that they found most useful? It might even be interesting to take a specific article or two and have a discussion thread for each one that allows us to explore or unpick them from our own experience? A way of building the knowledge base perhaps. Just a thought.

So do I think RCR is wrong about MLC in general? Probably not. Do I think everything she wrote is an exact fit for my xh? Probably not. Do I think there are some bits that have been more useful or applicable to my situation as an LBS? Probably. Do I think there are some gaps? Probably. Do I think that at stages we LBS may not always balance what RCR says about MLC with what she also says about healing and coping as an LBS? Probably. All of which seems normal and ok to me. I appreciate what RCR has done but it was never her responsibility to fix my h, come up with all the answers or fix my life was it? 

[Mortesbride]

RCR is just one person, with one ''MLCer''. We can question and doubt if he was an MLCer at all, but isn't that the case for most of us who have researched many other possibilities? They can fit so many checklists it is hard to really identify which one they are until the end. By then it hardly matters anymore.

So is RCR right? Well she was apparently right for HER situation. That doesn't mean she is right for every situation.

And even though she has lots of brilliant articles the next step is how people will interpret those articles, and then bend them to fit their own narrative.

A lot like the Bible actually.

A Bible verse may say the same thing, yet it will be interpreted by different denominations of faith to mean different things.

It is flexed to suit their beliefs.

The same happens here. Though I personally think it ridiculous to liken MLC articles written by one person to that status, yet some people treat it as such.

RCR was just a woman. She happened to come here and write about her experience first. But she is no different to any of the other brilliant men and women here who have walked the same path...she just happened to write about it first.

People are so focused on the words of one, that they no longer listen to the collective voice...and therefore will never see the whole picture. We can only see the whole picture if we hear everyone's voice and see it from all sides....even the sides we don't care to view.

[Not Applicable]

If you were to go to a Chevrolet enthusiast's forum and post derogatory comments about Chevys you would be rightfully considered a troll. I feel the same way about forum members who come here and post negative comments about MLC and MLCers. I have chosen to block those members who do that because I don't find their comments helpful. In fact, at times they're at best insensitive and at worst cruel and hurtful. On some discussion threads I only see about 1 post out of every 6 because the rest of them are all blocked. Why are so many comments being posted that disagree with the articles on this website? I've even observed a member being ridiculed for believing those articles. If you don't agree with those articles, what are you doing here? Do you enjoy being a troll?

I just wanted to address several points in here. I have disagreed with RCR, publicly and privately. You know what? She THANKED me for disagreeing with her! She actually LIKES hearing viewpoints that differ from her own, as this helps one to learn more and broaden our minds and knowledge and improve the outcomes of interacting with the M LC and MLCers that we have to deal with. She'd probably rather hear a different viewpoint than the blind worship some people on here seem to have for her, yourself included, especially when that worship is based on a false understanding of what she has written.

If you are so bothered by disagreement that you are blocking 5 out of 6 posts, then perhaps it is you who doesn't fit in with the atmosphere that RCR has created here and obviously wants to maintain.

Finally, "If you don't like it, you can leave" is my H's favorite line to say to OW and to a lesser extent, myself. So believe me, your arguments do NOT impress me in the slightest.