[marvin4242]

I had posted this in someone thread and thought it was not the right place, so I moved it here to open up a separate discussion. The following is my opinion, would love to hear what others think.
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I do not think there is one clear definition of standing here. I am sure if there are definitions based on ones religion they may be well defined, for me it is not. It is more about who I am as a person, how I would like to view myself and be, and the fact that I knew my wife before/after and am very comfortable that something very dramatic happened to her psychologically. And I will absolutely protect myself but past that I will "stand" to help a lifelong friend if it comes to it, regardless of any reconciliation or return. That is who I am.

And I will say this carefully as to not try to come across as knowing more than others, but I have had a lot of experience and am pretty well versed in human psyche, how it functions and how sometimes it fails to. And I was fortunate enough that when my wife shattered she triggered something in me that allowed me to realize quickly what was going on with her so I detached quickly. I had a lot of opportunities to just observe her without engaging, listen, analyze etc.

And by my understanding whatever we call MLC is not a "baking," it actually a rather dramatic shattering of our loved ones psyche that they have been holding together. This probably is from fundamental deeply rooted issues, most likely from very early development, that they compensated for, hid, ran away, until like most things in the human mind the internal pressure became too big to be contained. And it is not a subtle event, I believe there is a critical tipping point and significant shattering of their internal makeup and balance as they had been holding. From here the stress and pain is too much and the rest of what we observe is many different (bad) coping mechanisms, which is an attempt to survive the pain and confusion.

So they are not baking, they are in a very bad crises. In order to even begin to recover they will have to start finding some foothold, something to be able to face the pain. All their attempts in rewriting, replay, etc, is trying to not face the pain and confusion that is flooding them. We have all seen it, the narcissism is from survival level pain (for some, some were covert narcissists and stop hiding it), complete inability to think and remember, confusion, anger, and the displacement of all their pain onto the person they love the most and cared for the most. They also exist in a very severe state of disassociation, that is the "shark eyes" and the flat affect. We all use this technique in small degrees and sometimes larger when things become too difficult and its overwhelming. They seem to disassociate almost completely due to the intolerable pain.

So this idea that they are baking, to "stir the pot" or to "help" them is, I am sorry to say, is naive and comes from a complete lack of understanding of human psychology and an oversimplification of how dramatic a collapse this is. Yes there are bigger psychological events in human experience, but not many. Only reason I bring this up is without taking in what this all means one may misread what is happening, that simple rest, or some thinking, or a hot bath are all "healing." That to me is like watching someone who has massive gaping wounds and is bleeding out put on a tiny bandaid and going "oh its going so well don't you think?" Or to go to someone who is barely holding any semblance of themselves together and ask them to do a task, or consider some detail, or take a quiz. If I am in a lot of physical pain please do not come to me and ask me to take a survey, same applies here.

I have no idea what is the difference between the MLCers who go into survival and self protection mode, and then at some point start to reassemble, and the ones who never do. I believe the reason what we do has no impact is the same as above, they are drowning at the bottom of giant ocean with large blocks of concrete at their feet, so us giving them tiny floatation devices or bailing out a couple of buckets of water is not going to make a difference. But I think when they are at their limit and anything we do that increases the pressure that has already become intolerable CAN be quite negative. So sadly we can't help even if we want to, but boy can we make it much worse.

This is all my opinion. I throw it out there, but I got to watch this play out for 1.5 years and managed to remain mostly an observer, to learn, to understand. And I got the chance to do it because I wasn't threatened, I had security in areas others do not get to have. I just got to watch the fragments of the woman I love swim around in a vortex of pain, confusion, anger, sadness. And then fade away. Going down with her would have made no difference to her.

[Not Applicable]

I'm not a big fan of psychology, but I agree with your overall post. I would substitute psychiatric for psychology because while I agree this is something that resulted from stuff that happened early in life, it had an impact on their brain and this is a dysfunction of their brain.

I'm not making excuses for their behavior but there are certain telltale things that cannot be explained as voluntary, e.g. the lack of memory imprinting (I believe they don't forget, they just don't remember in the first place, two different brain processes), the inability to feel emotions, the disappearance of benign speech habits that should not disappear simply because our relationship changed, intermittent imitation in speech patterns of people who abused them during their childhoods and the loss of ability to understand an language they didn't know as a child when in one of those states.

I've reached a point where I feel comfortable calling out my H on specific bad behavior toward me, but I still see overall there is something that simply has gone dormant in his brain and been replaced by something from before he met me. And that is involuntary. There is absolutely nothing, NOTHING I can do to influence him. It's like certain receptors in his brain are just shut off. Newbies may not see this yet, but that's because they slowly enter into this state, so they think there is something they can do, but it's only a matter of time before they shut down.

In my H's case I believe the main trigger that brought it on and continues to aggravate it is our moving in with MIL. From talking to her and his sister and what he told me long ago, i can piece together how he is reliving his childhood or in some ways trying to turn it upside down and that was a very bad childhood so naturally he is in turmoil. I have really made a concerted effort to stay away from anything that smells like his childhood because I don't want him to associate me with that experience, but it can be a challenge with an at-home MLCer.

MLC is not about the marriage, but it effects it. If there are no major childhood issues, and granted the LBS may not be aware of them, then I have to say, I don't think you can call it MLC and you have to face the fact that for some reason, the marriage was just not working for your spouse anymore and they decided to leave. MLC does provide a good cover story for LBSes whose marriages weren't that great, who maybe weren't the best spouses themselves, because it allows them to deflect responsibility off themselves for what happened. And I am sure there are people here who are doing that. No one will admit it, but you can sometimes read between the lines and see that.

Now hot baths are like leeches. Nineteenth century medicine. However, there is also a lack of any sort of advice out there how to help the MLCer get the help they need. Google how to deal with someone with PTSD, you won't find ANYTHING that tells you how to deal with someone who has PTSD who doesn't know it. All advice assumes the person has been diagnosed. And nothing tells you what to do if you suspect your spouse has PTSD, or worse, CPTSD. Every damn single piece of advice assumes the sufferer knows what they are suffering from. And therein lies one of the hugest challenges for us as LBSes, we can see quite clearly the childhood sources of their problems, there are probably certain therapies etc. that could help them, but there is no way in hell we can help them to see that might help them. They don't know what is wrong with them, and we are probably the last person they want advice from. It's like watching someone through one of those mirrors in a police interrogation room, but they can't see back. All you can do is watch.

[Father5]

HI marvin ,

   I totally agree, Something in them is broken and has been for a long time. I think I was blinded by love or maybe I just didn't want to see it but I knew something was wrong with her. That this had been manifesting in her way before I met her. Then her dad passed and BOOM! My family goes up in smoke. Did most of you guys see soemthing wrong in your W/H before this all started ?

[AlvinTheMaker]

I'll add the magic words: we all have sample of one. Nothing more, nothing less.

MLC as the name suggests is crisis that happens at midlife. What lies beneath the title is likely various mental conditions, that all peak with personal crisis destroying marriage/relationship. But each story is different (with some overlapping similarities).

Whats common with everyone here is that they are our partners/spouses. And we all are here because their personal crisis dragged our marriages/relationships to crisis.

Maybe this is oversimplified view of MLC, but thats all there is IMHO  Anything else is comparing each individual story to another, and trying to spot  some differences, and then classify them into groups (such as wallowers).

Alvin

[Anon]

I get what you are saying Marvin - they are broken and then the day comes when they shatter.   I do think the 'baking' analogy is appropriate though.   They blow the top off their issues and then they need to sort through the rubble, one piece at a time, hold it up to the light, examine it, and hopefully resolve the issue and then,,, move onto the next piece of rubble.  Gradually over time the issues that led to the shattering are addressed and healed.  When that's all done, they have left the crisis.  So 'baking' is just one word of many that may be appropriate to describe this painfully slow process of facing their issues, fixing them, and then closing the door on them once resolved and moving forward as psychologically integrated people.   

I'm not sure how many mlcer's get fully baked or how long that takes.   It seems a lot of them turn off the oven at some point and the baking never gets finished.  So then they are 'half-baked'... more or less. 

[Treasur]

Great post, Marvin.
Great follow up by NYM.
And I speak as someone who had PTSD but didn't realise I had PTSD until I had tried a bunch of other options......and someone who knows what it feels like to have a brain rewired and the kind of weird stuff like memory problems etc.
Looking back, my h had buckets of FOO and unresolved significant trauma. He was an unexploded bomb and it is remarkable really that he did not implode before he did. Perhaps our relationship was strong and loving enough that it postponed it for a while. My foolishness and/or arrogance was not understanding enough about how this stuff works that I assumed he was more healthy than he actually was. I could not imagine the darkness of complexity of it until I experienced my own version with PTSD.
I also find 'baking' too gentle and too one directional a phrase for the brutality of the kind of unravelling that I think is involved either in breaking or in healing. For me, it was like fighting and sharp splinters and epic failures in my own head 

[terra]

Marvin and NYM, thank you both for terrific posts here.

In h’s case it is definitely mountains of childhood abuse and trauma from birth, coupled with a bona fide and very deep sex/porn addiction. All these things rewire, hijack, or otherwise inhibit normal brain chemistry, structure, and functioning.

From my sample of 1 perspective, a lot of shattering happens to whatever degree to most people at midlife, or on or around key decade ages. In my own family of origin, when things went to he11, it happened at 40, 50, 60 years of age. That seems to be true in other families also, although maybe that’s just the cluster of my own experience or circle of people.

We either sort the rubble, or keep running from it. H is only one person in my life who keeps running from it.

I have to lean on Christ to get through this. I am surrounded by rubble myself now and sorting, always sorting, and it is very slow going. I have PTSD or CPTSD symptoms and I have no doubt I’ve got some brain damage from all this on top of my own childhood and other deep trauma. Beyond the neuroscience and psychology education or understanding, finally it feels like faith and Christ are all I’ve got.

I don’t really expect anyone will ever have a satisfactory and structured answer for what MLC really is, or why it happens to some and not others, or whether it is “curable” or undoable or what have you. I’m still glad we have communities like this one in which to say our truths, explore the whats and whys, and find comfort or at least know we aren’t crazy or alone in this experience.

It will be interesting to see, sometime years from now, if more studies or research or explanations come through.

Thanks again for sound thoughts.

[Not Applicable]

Alvin that is a copout explanation. Unless one is willing to distinguish those with a serious illness from bad marriages there will never be scientific progress that could help those with serious illness. Looking at it from the perspective of our relationships only is selfish. Don't want to call it mlc? Fine. Call it bad childhood leftovers disease. But don't lump it together with bad marriages. Look at their actions independent of our relationships and the difference is clear. No forum member is going to admit they were a crap spouse. So relationships tell us nothing

[marvin4242]

There is so much interesting stuff here. First the idea that its not “easy” to tell a bad marriage from MLC. I call complete shenanigans on that one. Yes there are people who may not have seen a failing marriage, and maybe it would be painful to admit that. But that doesn’t mean most of us are not very well aware of what happened. I am a pretty observant guy, I didn’t “miss” what was going on in my marriage. My wife was hiding deeply a lot of things that were going on inside, not just from me but from herself. When my wife went from her normal “I love you” on Sunday to a “I never loved you” on Tuesday out of the blue and I was trying to sort out the joke, that is not a “failing” or bad marriage. Something really tipped over fast, and I have heard this over and over from talking to many LBSes (and reading obviously here and elsewhere). Looking back with 20/20 hindsight I reconstructed the bits that were leaking out, but then again it was easy after the fact.

Here is a simple test: did you have ANY idea one week before the first BD that your spouse would do ANYTHING like that?

Here is a second test: did you ever see your spouse with a flat disassociated affect saying something like “I know this is important but I’ll give you 20 minutes then I want to go to sleep” or answer your question about “what would you like to have for dinner” with “you get what you want, I think we should get a divorce?” Abnormal is easy to spot.

My main concern for a lot of LBSes who try to oversimplify a complicated process is that they will get more hurt. Illusion of control is very important to our well being sometimes, but it can also lead to great harm. MLCers go to great length to avoid the depth of their pain, but I see that a lot of LBSes early on also do their own version of minimizing the damage. And its completely understandable, it is so much like having a fruit you are holding explode in your hand and tear you to pieces that parts of your mind can not grasp nor deal with the unreality of what just happened. Doesn’t mean it is healthy nor wise to stay in that denial state for very long, in order to start healing connection to reality is a must.

As for PTSD, my early “catch” was when I realized the way my wife was acting had completely triggered my childhood abandonment trauma, that I was literally existing as a 10 year old without realizing it. And catching that made me realize something was very wrong with the women who I had known intimately and had shared everything with for 21 years (and vice verse), who taught me to have empathy for myself and cared deeply for my well being. Because I realized she no longer registered what was happening inside and around her.

I greatly encourage any LBS who can to seek PTSD and trauma treatment. Even certain meditative repetitive yogas can help alleviate and release trauma. And yes we all have a “sample of one” but there is a lot of commonality in how our minds and psyche work, we are not all built from scratch. We tend to use similar methods of coping and do tend to fall into patterns of behavior, it doesn’t mean we are not unique. But its simple untrue that nothing can be learned from what has come before.

[AlvinTheMaker]

The difficulty with any collective definition comes down to individual perspective.  For example there is no solid definition of "normal behaviour".  There is only our individual perception of it. Put a group of 100 people together, and you get 100 more or less different definitions for "nornal behaviour". One could try to classify it. for example any behaviour that happens at least n times is normal. But where to draw the line? And to be scientifically valid, one would need a group that is not homogeneous (like LBS) and large enough (say 250 people or more).

Another problem is that MLC/LBS  is entirely subjective...Take for example physical pain. For one person sticking a needle might feel as level 2 pain, for another it could be level 10 pain.  Same with MLC/LBS.... It is very much possible that a whole lot of MLC go as something else, and those of us here are just some extreme

For these reasons my definition of MLC was, and remains as wide as it was.

Possibly more interesting would be turn eyes to us, LBS. What makes us "us".

Alvin
 

[Nerissa]

Thanks for these posts Marvin.  I think there is so much to recognise  in what you explain.

[xyzcf]

Very good post Marvin.

MLC is a catastrophic event for the person in crisis.

I agree that there is absolutely nothing that you can do to change the course of the crisis. I do however have a different take on the way I respond and treat my husband. You wrote:

I believe the reason what we do has no impact is the same as above, they are drowning at the bottom of giant ocean with large blocks of concrete at their feet, so us giving them tiny floatation devices or bailing out a couple of buckets of water is not going to make a difference. But I think when they are at their limit and anything we do that increases the pressure that has already become intolerable CAN be quite negative. So sadly we can't help even if we want to, but boy can we make it much worse.

When I read this earlier, I thought about my days as a Coronary Intensive Care nurse. The damage done to the heart muscle was not something I could do anything about. There was however a standing order for all patients to receive a back rub at least twice a day. The back rub was not going to fix their heart but it did have benefits for the patient.

I have heard that some MLCers when they resolve their crisis do remember when their spouse has shown them kindness. That may be why we sometimes refer to the LBSer as the "Lighthouse" or that the MLCer is "anchor checking". Mine definitely watches me and the rebuilding of my life has been a positive one. Things that I have involved myself with that he is quite proud of.

The person I am, the person I was is not unkind to others. I also try and practice what my faith tells me...mainly "to love one another as I have loved you". I see the damage to my Beloved, I believe he was in a terrible and awful place.

For myself, I needed to be able to have contact with him without that contact causing me to regress as it did in the earlier years...this is how I judge how much I have healed.

If you are a LBSer who would like their spouse to return home, it may take them many false starts to get there. The door may need to be left open a crack if there is any hope that they will find their way back again.

So even though there is nothing we can do about the crisis, I do think there are some things that we can do to create a place of safety for them to find us again.....all the while, living our own life to the fullest.

[Slow Fade]

Marvin I was shaking my head in agreement while I was reading your post......totally agree.....


Xyczf, I also totally agree with you and saw that in my own situation. Bravo!

[Not Applicable]

You want to ask yourself who we lbs are? Many of us were good caring spouses and continue to be and don't really need all the lectures to show compassion and love because it is part of our intrinsic nature and deal with our spouses' illness that way

And then there are those who weren't such great spouses and got dumped. And after the fact try to compensate for all their previous faults by doing mirror work. And suddenly developing compassion and love where there was none before to try to get their spouse back

So if you look at it that way it may still break down the same way.

[Father5]

Great thread everyone.

I do think all of us have regular marrital issues. The spouse in crisis will use all of those issues against us. Hence adding to the confusion.

  No marriage is perfect but mine I thought was as good as any. The flat out crazy behavior and total lack of empathy is what gives me little doubt about MLC. Sometimes in the early days I would doubt MLC. But as I heal and look back it is clear to me something is definitely wrong with her.

  It is our anniversary today and I long to hear from her. I have no idea where she is and if she is ever coming back. I can. See what was broken in me. Her crisis has become my crisis. Broken attracts broken we both have issues to work through.

[Not Applicable]

The best thing that could be done for our spouses and those like them in the future is for doctors to take a clinical approach. Your rubbing your patients' back is a poor substitute for a doctor saving their life.

And the first step towards that is a clinical definition of mlc. I would rather my husband (and me) had never had to go through this at all than to worry about how to reconcile.

No progress will be made for future lbses who come to this forum until medical science recognizes s clearly defined cluster of symptoms in a cohort of the population not a sample of one.

This would be a great thread to do it if one could put aside one's own relationship for a moment and focus on the mlcer. Not to get them back but to define the illness

[xyzcf]

You view NYM is your view.

I write about things from my perspective which is as valid as any other’s on HS.

It is not helpful to criticize my post because you do not agree. The beauty of HS is the many observations made by posters. We can all decide for ourselves what resonates for our own situation.

[Not Applicable]

I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying your post is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is "what is MLC?" MLC is not "How I show my spouse compassion so they might come back." Two totally different things.

You basically have one variation on a theme that you post on every single thread, regardless of whether it is relevant to the topic being discussed or not. Your views are valid, but you seem to be missing the subtleties of appropriate conversation and interaction. it's like going to a funeral and then standing up and announcing to all the attendees that your daughter just got engaged. Valid information, inappropriate time and place. You have a big bucket of stinky red herrings you keep tossing into conversations to steer them away completely from their original purpose.

[xyzcf]

I had a different view than Marvin on one aspect of what he wrote. It is often debated as to if there is anything we can do or not.

We all have the right to express our personal views on HS.

Yours is no more important than anyone else’s .

[AlvinTheMaker]

No progress will be made for future lbses who come to this forum until medical science recognizes s clearly defined cluster of symptoms in a cohort of the population not a sample of one.

Ask and ye shall receive: https://icdlist.com/icd-10/Z60.0

This particular ICD version is currently used in US only AFAIK. Here in Europe people get diagnosed with anxiety, depression, mental fatique, burnout etc etc instead.

Please note the essential part: "The code is unacceptable as a principal diagnosis."....  which is because this code is just an "umbrella term" for various other life management related diagnosticable conditions with primary ICD code happening during life-cycle transitions.

So definition of all this in laymans terms  would be very close to what I wrote at my initial response to Marvin..A crisis happening at midlife, usually related to mental issue (making us loose control of life).

You are free to exclude the relationship part from definition, but that is why all of us are here.  Whether the distruction of our relationships is because of anhedonia, anxiety, depression, menopause, whatever mental or physical condition with ICD code - we all here because of what it did to our relationships with our spouses. That is one "symptom", which has put us all into our own version of Z60.0.

For some others the crisis can come through as addiction. Or maybe as religious awakening. Or aomething else without any attachment to relationships.... And there are support forums for all these too... But what combines us all here is our marriages, and what happened to them.

Alvin

[Not Applicable]

This a list of codes. There's a code for practically everything, including being the subsequent incident of being struck by an orca and any one of hundreds of other encounters with animals, some very obscure.

https://www.practicefusion.com/icd-10/animal-codes-icd-10/

It is not the same as medical research.

If you want something that actually is meaningful, try this:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/preventingACES-508.pdf

And no it's not about MLC, ti's not going to do our own MLCers any good. But it's something that could help the next generation and prevent MLC down the line.

A lot of oldtimers hang out in this forum because they want to help newbies. Is there anyone who sees the big picture and sees that prevention of this horrible illness needs to start before any LBS needs to come here?

This forum only exists because there is no solution to MLC. And that is a sad state of affairs.

[AlvinTheMaker]

It is not the same as medical research.

ICD is way more than a list. It is a classification system based on medical research, and aimed and used by medical professionals, researchers etc. It is the base foundation of pretty much everything in modern healthcare. You want meds or treatment or research for something? If it is not on the list it is not happening. If the symptoms dont match with whats defined on ICD, then you've got something else than you think. ICD list is not just index, but the heart of of modern medical healthcare.

Or as Wikipedia definition puts it: "ICD-10 is the 10th revision of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), a medical classification list by the World Health Organization (WHO). It contains codes for diseases, signs and symptoms, abnormal findings, complaints, social circumstances, and external causes of injury or diseases.

And it gives a somewhat precise definition of MLC (as seen by medical professionals), as well as hints what might be the underlying conditions (and their respective ICD codes).

Alvin 

[Not Applicable]

Show me the medical literature. I'm not interested in psychological literature. Medical please. Show me the literature about what happens to the brain specifically at midlife that results in the cluster of behaviors we see in our spouses.

Go up one level in your classification, and you will notice it is considered a "psychosocial" issue:
https://icdlist.com/icd-10/index/problems-related-to-social-environment-z60

I know there are plenty of psychological theories, but as I said, I really am interested in it from a neurological perspective. One can cobble together research on the brain that is relevant on a piecemeal basis, but there is really nothing that deals with the specific cluster of symptoms we see.

I am not discounting any of the psychological research that may have been done. I just think that research on midlife crisis is in its infancy and that there is so much more potential. I am not here to criticize anyone's beliefs, or anyone's standing, or choices they make in how they handle their spouse's MLC. But this forum could have so much more potential if we worked together and were more active in advocating for the kind of research that is needed. It might not help our spouses but how can you not go through this and wish there could be a way to prevent it from happening to someone else?

I guess too many people are too busy putting on their oxygen masks and waiting for the return of their MLCer to be able to look at the big picture beyond themselves and their spouses.

[AlvinTheMaker]

One can cobble together research on the brain that is relevant on a piecemeal basis, but there is really nothing that deals with the specific cluster of symptoms we see.

That's the downside with "umbrella" conditions. They cover such a wide spectre of symptoms, sidekicks, consequences etc...   For example "memory difficulties or personality changes" or "anhedonia" are such symptoms all of us can relate.  They can be found with depression, anxiety, dementia, BBD, MLC and hundreds of others conditions.  It makes sense for medical industry to research this stuff on "lowest possible level" (symptom), and then apply what it is learned to all the conditions where it is found. Thus you end up with piecemeal - most scientific research covers one very specific slot  of some symptom (for example role of neurotransmitters in anhedonia), which can relate to number of conditions and illnesses. 

Sadly the end result is of very similar to ICD classification.... You get potentially thousands of small pieces that need to be magically glued together to make the big picture.

You want medical literature for something that matches the cluster of symptoms?   First step would be to isolate the symptoms (based on their ICD code/name), and then simply check out what neuro-research is done on them....  I think there was a thread very similar to that somewhere in the archives ( possibly by Anjae or Velika, I don't recall as it's been a good while since I read it through). 

Alvin

[Not Applicable]

I know about those threads. I participated in them myself. It was a rhetorical question that I was asking.

[marvin4242]

NYM: not that your basic premise is not valid, we simply do not know enough about the neurological/physiological manifestations of human behaviour at this point about most things, even simply things, much less the highly complex conditions that we experience. So to try to stick to a “medical” discussion isn’t going to get any answers at this time. Psychology is a valid science, and has the most complete and comprehensive knowledge about what is going on. By comparison neurophysiology is in its infancy of describing the underlying wiring. We are combination of the mind (psychology) and the brain (neurosciences) and studying one without the other is incomplete. And one field is much more advanced than the other at this time, and its best imo to use the best knowledge rather than dismiss it because neurosciences can’t provide the other half of the information to explain.

I also think understanding MLC should be done at the behaviour level in our context, because we are not neurosurgeons, we are not looking for a pill, and we are not going to help ourselves by understanding nerve cell firing potential curves or how complex neural networks adapt over time. We have to understand ourselves, our own needs and motivation, and how all of these were massively impacted by the fracturing of the psyches of someone who was the closest person to us in our lives.

So I’ll go back to the basic premise for me here: this is a complicated and complex event, anyone trying to reduce it simple dynamics from some basic 101 level psychological principles, or trying to treat it like a normal “relationship” and interacting with the MLCers in that way is bound to experience pain. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Not Applicable]

It doesn't matter how you deal with them, you are going to experience pain. MLC is NOT about how we react to it. There are people who are going to naturally react in a good way, those who are going to naturally react in a bad way, and those who read MLC advice or normal psychological advice and follow it.

In my experience, the advice for MLC that is out there is primarily useful for counteracting monstering and angry behavior. For example, one of the best pieces of advice is the line from HB where she says, "They can't argue with a closed mouth." That saved my ass many times. I remember one time simply putting a pillow over my face and refusing to remove it. It took a few minutes to get him out of the room, but NOTHING good would have come from me doing anything else but that.

Otherwise, if they aren't monstering, I find the best thing is just to be yourself. You will feel better, regardless of how they react. It's simply easier to do what comes naturally to you.

None of this I am saying has anything to do with reconciliation. I'm not there yet so I am not going to be presumptuous and say it is the key. But as someone whose spouse went into the anger phase of MLC 4 years ago next month and has been a stay-at-home (I should add we have been apart about 8 months during that time due to things that have nothing to do with his MLC) it is true when they say this is a marathon and the only advice I can give that is sustainable is to just do what feels right to you without regard for the long term outcomes.

MLC has complex causes and effects. But i think how we deal with it is easiest if we keep it REALLY simple on our part.

As for the brain, no we don't know much now, until someone puts an MLCer under an MRI or something. That doesn't mean it isn't possible in the future that we will know. And that is what I am trying to stress. We can discuss the whole thing until the cows come home, and we will never move forward in our understanding one step until it is subjected to a more scientifically rigorous approach.

[Keep believing]

Even if the medical field classified mlc as a disease or medical condition, the mlcer doesnt think there is anything wrong with them. So  how would you go about helping someone in this case.? Its like an alcoholic. The only one that can truly dx this disease is the alcoholic  himself. Sure everyone else knows there is a problem but alcoholic is in denial. Same with mlc. Until  they  decide that they have had enough, when the pain is bad enough, when they want to change their life , thats when they will seek help.

[marvin4242]

In light of another very salient thread I wanted to amend this: no matter what MLC is, no matter how much “understanding” one has, or any other factors I believe these to be absolute truth:

- First you MUST take care of yourself. It really does not matter what is going on inside your MLCer, you must ALWAYS put your physical, emotional and financial well being first. There are no “buts” or modifiers to these imo. Understand and compassion DOES NOT mean self destruction.

- Second they are absolutely responsible for their actions and its consequences. None of what is happening changes what happens to the people around them, it does not diminish the pain nor the damage. It is not a punitive thing, it is simply reality. They are causing the destruction, they have to leave with consequences and feedback from it.

- Third being kind and compassionate is a choice. It has to come after we have found our footing, have gone through all the stages of grieving the loss (and before that facing that it is a loss and give up illusion that it will be ok). And if we don’t get there that is fine to. But again kindness and compassion can not at our expense.

Sometimes when people believe in one they think the other can not hold. I firmly believe you can love, be empathetic and kind and absolutely hold all the rest at the same time. Take care of yourself first is not just a motto.

[Treasur]

I agree with this so much, Marvin.
And I think it is our own beliefs that get in the way usually.

That we can't accept the reality of the risk, so don't do the first.
That we see them as needing more 'help' than we do, so don't do the second.
That we feel like resentful or disempowered victims, so don't do the third.

Imho we make some of this choices an either/or when they don't always need to be. But there probably is a 1 2 3 set of steps as Marvin suggests and we get to choose.

[OffRoad]

I do believe that getting hung up on the words people use to define the mlc experience is counterproductive. I work with glass. When glass shatters, the best way to put it back together is to put it in a kiln (oven) and bake it until it fuses back together. As an analogy, baking is fairly accurate, because until any dissociated parts "fuse"  or get integrated a persona is fractured.

My point being that saying that the word "bake" or any other word is over simplifying things is simply not true. Not everyone wants to delve into the mysteries of the psyche, or even CAN  depending on where they are in their LBS journey. Some of us (that would be me) use humor to get us through. Implying that because someone uses a word you (the generic you) would not use means they are over simplifying is rather over simplifying, imo. 

To the topic at hand, what is MLC? Since I didn't have one, it LOOKS like someone reached a point where enough things had happened in their life where they can no longer sort out what they used to believe and experience  from what they currently believe and  experience. And quite honestly, I think it could be caused my multiple factors, from a severe chemical imbalance to FOO issues to childhood issues (not necessarily FOO), to a true identity crisis where everything they were told was the correct thing to do no longer jibes with where they are in life. And they all manifest in a similar way either due to the individal (who may  or may not have lived with some sort of chemical imbalance, or personality disorder or neurological disorder all their life, but we're able to hide it) or due the fact that each one is a crisis in its own right.

Like all the virus' that LOOK like a common cold, but aren't. Like ailments that LOOK like they are caused by one thing, but are really caused by another.

One person's perspective, which allows for other people to have their own perspective.

[Seahorse]

Even if the medical field classified mlc as a disease or medical condition, the mlcer doesnt think there is anything wrong with them. So  how would you go about helping someone in this case.? Its like an alcoholic. The only one that can truly dx this disease is the alcoholic  himself. Sure everyone else knows there is a problem but alcoholic is in denial. Same with mlc. Until  they  decide that they have had enough, when the pain is bad enough, when they want to change their life , thats when they will seek help.

Well said Keep Believing!

[Not Applicable]

Who is to say if more was understood about mlc that a treatment would not be developed or that the mlcer would not seek treatment? What I see here is complacency with the state of our knowledge.

[Seahorse]

NYM - I think what we were agreeing to, is that the MLCer doesn't believe that there is a problem with them -- like an alcoholic.
We know that there is a diagnosis and treatment for alcoholism, HOWEVER, the alcoholic needs to admit that they have an alcohol addiction, then they need to get treatment, then they need to change their lifestyle.  That happens less often than not.  Even less for drug addiction...

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying?

[Treasur]

I like the glass example of baking, OR. Makes sense.
I think one of the struggles with simplifying vs not is that we are dealing with a complex thing in someone else's head while trying to navigate the effects and keep our own sanity. The first leads us to accept complexity; the second draws us to wanting a simpler frame perhaps. Like the glass example perhaps...those who know more could see and talk about it on a complex chemical level, those who know less simply know that glass is shattered but there is a possible process for repairing it.

Ok, I am stretching that metaphor a bit lol.
I think I see MLC rather more like an impressionist painting.....very difficult to see the picture close up as an LBS....easier to see the form of it as you step further back perhaps.

On what NYM says....while not disagreeing with some of it...I am not sure what you are suggesting should be done. Or by whom. Tbh the best folks to push for more research would actually be recovered MLCers I suspect as often happens when people who experience an illness challenge a given medical orthodoxy. Things like Lyme disease or ME spring to mind. Or when people write books about an experience that gain popular attention and create a public awareness. It seems to me though that the fields of psychology, psychiatry, pharmacology and neuroscience are still in flux about a lot of issues, even quite basic things like how anti-depressants work. Bessel van der Kolk, an expert in trauma for over 30 years although not universally liked, believes strongly that the CPTSD of early life FOO trauma is a huge contributing factor to the social cost of things like mental health and addiction and that we need radically different approaches to treatment...but many people disagree with him and I have no idea what an HS member could do about any of that. And that our own LBS filter has real limits and biases as well as information. Jmo.

[Penelope2018]

I'm honestly not completely sure what it is. I know from my own experience as a LBS that there is an extreme amount of stress involved, trying to live up to society's or parents' expectations, possible childhood abuse and just from my own reading, it seems many are never satisfied and may have never been. House, car, clothes, vacations, people, nothing is ever good enough. They are always looking for the greener grass but this all could still stem from the expectations thing, I don't know. I do think that even if some preventative treatment were to come about, this wouldn't help our mlcers currently. They don't want help. Most don't think anything is wrong with them. Even alcoholics and drug-addicts generally will admit that at some point. MLCers give that up that line of thinking not long after BD. They are more delusional.

[Nerissa]

There seems to be a focus on the idea that this is an issue with the brain. That would make it a concrete, identifiable and this curable disease.  I doubt it is in most cases. It is likely more holistic.  The brain and the mind cannot be conflated. 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t changes in the brain, but the way we are treated, think and act effect changes in the brain anyway as well as the other way around.

[xyzcf]

Some of us also believe that MLC is a spiritual battle which adds to the complexity.

After BD, a women whose husband had also had a MLC (and who had returned) looked me straight in the eye and said "this is Satan, trying to destroy good Christian marriages"....I thought she was nuts.

Sister Lucia dos Santos, one of the three children who witnessed the Marian apparitions at Fatima, died in 2005. But before her death, she predicted that the final battle between Christ and Satan would be over marriage and the family. In  a response to Cardinal Caffarra who Saint John Paul II had commissioned  to plan and establish the Pontifical Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family she wrote ‘The final battle between the Lord and the kingdom of Satan will be about Marriage and the Family.’ Don't be afraid, she added, because whoever works for the sanctity of Marriage and the Family will always be fought against and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue. Then she concluded: ‘nevertheless, Our Lady has already crushed his head’.”

Jim Conway who wrote Men In Mid Life Crisis published in 1978, also referred to a spiritual battle as part of what he observed to be a mid life crisis.

Thus, MLC is most likely a combination of mind/body and spirit which makes it very complex.

[Treasur]

My/our old priest - who is also a psychotherapist - has always seen this kind of crisis as a spiritual/existential one as well as a psychological one. My xh interestingly, who apparently lost his faith in this process as often seems to happen, referred more than once to 'fighting his own demons'. I am not knowledgeable enough about anyone's faith beliefs, including my own ha ha, to have an opinion but I can see that any kind of existential crisis of any depth probably includes some spuritual element as well as a mental/physical one. As you say xyz, this just adds to the complexity of it probably both from the inside and the outside.

[Seahorse]

Great point xyzcf -
My H also lost his connection with God and the church when the MLC started.
I kept trying to get him back to church, but he was never happy with any one that I chose after we moved to the new state.
On the other hand, my church and God has given me a great sense connection and hope for an amazing future -- whatever that entails.

So, I pose the question - Is Satan's presence the impetus for ruining the marriage, or vice-versa?  Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Whyus]

This Thread is fantastic, unfortunately I find it difficult to post as it seems to have gone off in many different directions.

What is MLC really???
I wish I knew. I believe there are different ingredients which you could use to make a MLC soup. Its like taking all the leftovers and throwing them in a Pan to create a quick dish, It doesnt really matter what goes in the pan, with the Right seasoning you will get a dish which is edible.


Foo issues seems to be a common factor, it is certainly a factor with my XW and her MLC.
Social pressure also seems to be a key ingredient. Many of our spouces are/were succesful at their Jobs and well respected in the community. These people were not idiots!
A spiritual battle my XW is Roman Catholic, as are my Boys. She used to nuse in a Cathlic hospital run by nuns. Her Whatsapp pic post BD was of a Vampire princess with the words "The devil sits at the end of my bed and admires his masterpiece"... I told her it was inapropriate and she laughed at me. The boys went crazy when they saw it and she removed it "It was only a Joke".... nobody found it funny!
The Media just a small observation from my story..... Pre BD XW watched alot of Series. True Blood, Outsider, The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, GofT..... one thing they all have in common is that the leading female character had more than one lover!. it may be a coincidence but these affairs were made out to be harmlos and "cool" by the filmmakers.
She also had a Spotify Playlist named "walk away and dont look back" which she hammered through her headphones until she believed what was being said in all of the songs. Some kind of brainwashing.
The Addict I too believe that they are like Alcohol or drug addicts, they dont have a Problem but everybody else sees it!
mental Illness there sure is a Kind of Depression involved, I think we can all agree on that Point.

A Question..... im curious!!!

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"...…… id like to reverse that and ask  "would you stay with your Partner if they were having an Affair because they were an alcoholic? Would the Alcohol be made responsible for the Affair or make the behaviour acceptable?

[Treasur]

I guess the different directions, WhyUs, are part of recognising that it isn't a simple thing in either cause or effect. Even if there seem to be some common patterns in what we see and share.

My take on the 'illness' issue fwiw. I think most of us initially see them as 'mentally ill' bc their behaviour is so extreme or unfamiliar and want to 'help' them. Hence the debates here about accountability and forgiveness etc. Imho these folks do experience a kind of breakdown and do behave in many ways that have roots in depression, anxiety or mania. However, what helped me was when a friend of mine whose husband was a recovered alcoholic said to me that I should treat him like an addict who was not ready to deal with his addiction. That it did not make the behaviour any more acceptable to live with, that he was responsible for his addiction or recovery, but it might help me to be able to think of him in a way that separated the person I loved from the addict he was now. And that if he ever stopped behaving like an addict and showed up in recovery, I could decide how I felt about the recovered addict then. I found that quite helpful in both plotting my course and in deciding how I felt about the person he was compared to who he is. And of course the common ground in both situations is that I cannot help an addict who does not want to stop being an addict.....and true too that a recovered addict is not the same person exactly as they were before addiction ran the show.

So, I guess, with my long-gone h, it doesn't feel much different from if he were lost in an alcohol fuelled dump or slumped somewhere with a needle in his arm. I am very sad about it and i have no idea if he will ever get well. Or if he will show up in my life again in some form if he does. I can pray for him and I suppose I can decide if I will open my door and listen if he recovers or not. That's about it. It got to a point when it was too painful to watch so it is easier that he has gone.

I am also aware that framing it that way may be quite inaccurate or a bit of denial lol but it is the only way I can keep my own memory of who he was which matters to me, so hey ho. The universe may give me new information sometime that challenges that picture and if so, I'll adapt to that then.

I don't think every spouse here has had this kind of great unravelling breakdown.
But, on balance, i suspect my h probably did and if he wants to recover, I guess the complexity of why and how is more his business than mine.

But I recognise most of the ingredients you listed as part of your xw's MLC dish, the oppositeness that is so strange to witness. Conway I think was about right....job, body, spouse and God are the four basic pillars that they play with in trying out a new self in this process....some more than others...but it comes out in some very strange ways as you say. Respected Catholic nurse and mother to Devil-guided Vampire Teenage Princess as you say, there does seem to be a teenager flavour to most.....  From the little I can see, my xh went from Small Village Aspiring Vicar And Community Good Guy with Cats to Athiest Wannabe Big Swinging City Cool d!ck with a Crazy Drama Blonde 

[Not Applicable]

People use a lot of metaphors to describe MLC. But is that because we really don't understand it properly?

I know I keep harping on the brain, but think of it this way. Epilepsy used to be and still is thought by some to be caused by demonic possession. People take their children for exorcisms. But doctors will tell you it has a neurological basis. But before doctors were able to determine this, the only explanation people had was demonic possession.

So you can blame MLC on Satan, describe it as baking, alien abduction, fog or whatever. But underlying all that there may actually be an explanation that doesn't require all those metaphors because it is a problem in the brain.

And just because the research hasn't been done, just because we aren't neurologists on here, doesn't make that possibility any less plausible.

The question was what is MLC REALLY? REALLY. My point is that we may not yet have that knowledge but it does not mean it is necessarily unattainable.

[nah]

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"...

RCR describes MLC as a dis-ease NOT a disease.

Maybe they think RCR is wrong.

[Treasur]

Fair point,  NYM, but not sure if you are saying there's anything we could/should do to make that happen? Or if it is just a kind of LBS Santa's wish list item?

Idk actually if any researchers are working on this kind of stuff. Maybe others here do know.

I often draw on my experience of PTSD in thinking about MLC tbh. There were external events and psychological responses which created the path to my PTSD. Once I had PTSD though, yes, it absolutely was a brain issue as well as a psychological one. Bits of my brain stopped working so much and others went into overdrive....completely outwith my conscious control until I got the right kind of treatment...the psychological bits were probably what shaped my individual PTSD behaviours bc although there are commonalities, not all PTSD sufferers behave in the same way. It would not surprise me at all if something similar was the case in MLC. I believe that severe depression shows up in a different pattern of brain activity in a scan just as PTSD does? And i think most of us see depression as a contributing factor in MLC?

I suppose for us here the question remains what one needs or wants to do about the research information that is or is not available?

[Acorn]

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"

For me personally, Whyus, I had plenty of empathy and understanding for my H’s deep pain due to his emotional turmoil.  However, I had no right, though I desperately wanted, to take away his personal responsibility for his destructive behaviour.   To write off or minimize his personal responsibility would have served me, not him (what did he care?!) as that would have painted him as a pitiful creature who couldn’t help himself and, thus, elevating my ‘saintliness’ in my own eyes.  A halo and all.  But that’s just me. 

Continuing to minimize his responsibility would also have justified my hanging on to the reconciliation fantasy long term.  Clear eyed full recognition of his terrible choices would have been a real dream destroyer but necessary.  The way I see it, to dwell in fantasyland is a waste of the one and only life I have been given.  Again, that’s just me. 

Is there a remote possibility that ‘empathy and understanding’ angle is misused as wool over LBS’s eyes for his/her inability to let go of the fantasy, see reality and move forward?  I’m thinking I can’t be the only one who did just that for a while...

[Treasur]

Is there a remote possibility that ‘empathy and understanding’ angle is misused as wool over LBS’s eyes for his/her inability to let go of the fantasy, see reality and move forward?  I’m thinking I can’t be the only one who did just that for a while

Me too.
And then I got to the Grim Acceptance phase....which fortunately leads to the Acceptance More or Less phase lol.

There is an inherent kind of nonsense and arrogance in thinking we can possibly understand or think we know best about someone else's head isn't there? Particularly if they choose not to talk about it. I suspect for a while it is a mixture of displaced control and pink tutu denial for most of us. It was for me.
Bc reality hurt like a punch in the guts. I hated it. But it was/is still reality.

The only honest benefits I can see that come from it - and they take a bit of time and detachment tbh - is that we can choose (if we want to do so) to depersonalise it enough to not hate someone we used to love. And we can create our own answer to the WTF happened to my spouse and therefore my life question that we can live with without feeling insane or delusional.
But I think we can't know enough to really understand only speculate or infer or guess.
Sometimes we hear from the MLC horse's mouth but even then i suspect there's a limit to how much we can really understand. Probably why we use metaphor as NYM says. Whereas the reality of an absent spouse or a divorce or missing money or a new marriage or distressed children is more tangible and real isn't it? Grim perhaps, but reality.

[marvin4242]

I would say most of us, even if we have had our own experiences with disorder or trauma, still possibly can no experientially understand or know what is going on inside someone who is having a MLC type crises. We can maybe relate to bits and pieces but not the entire experience.

But to say it is “unknowable” is not true in my opinion. MLC is complex and is made up of multiple co-morbid and interacting events going on. We probably understand very well the dynamics of each component, I do not believe there is anything “new” or unique. The complexity may be that there are various facets and degrees of these events happening in different people, that is why although there are common themes the exact behaviour isn’t always the same. And like most mental health disorders there are common threads, but the entirety must be addressed in a unique way. I do not believe it is a neurological disorder or event, it is psychological. But obviously psychological events have neurological consequences.

As for empathy and understand: I would offer there are two versions. One is projected outward by LBSes in order to “justify,” to protect or maybe hope for reconciliation (if I love them enough, if I draw a bath, if I do xyz, it will all be ok). This one is destructive and as most of you have said keeps the LBS stuck and open to further damage. But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries. As some have said it is similar to how one has empathy towards an addict (this is one of the similar threads in this disorder, there is an “addiction” like element). This is harder and maybe should not be focus on early on, which is where there is complete detachment, hard boundaries, and the empathy and love is really for the LBS. Because I have always found to have empathy for others in pain, as long as it comes from a place of complete detachment and without taking on any of their pain or well being is both very healing and helpful for me. It helps me let go and be at peace. So that empathy/compassion/understanding is for me and is internal.

[Nerissa]

I would say most of us, even if we have had our own experiences with disorder or trauma, still possibly can no experientially understand or know what is going on inside someone who is having a MLC type crises. We can maybe relate to bits and pieces but not the entire experience.

But to say it is “unknowable” is not true in my opinion. MLC is complex and is made up of multiple co-morbid and interacting events going on. We probably understand very well the dynamics of each component, I do not believe there is anything “new” or unique. The complexity may be that there are various facets and degrees of these events happening in different people, that is why although there are common themes the exact behaviour isn’t always the same. And like most mental health disorders there are common threads, but the entirety must be addressed in a unique way. I do not believe it is a neurological disorder or event, it is psychological. But obviously psychological events have neurological consequences.

As for empathy and understand: I would offer there are two versions. One is projected outward by LBSes in order to “justify,” to protect or maybe hope for reconciliation (if I love them enough, if I draw a bath, if I do xyz, it will all be ok). This one is destructive and as most of you have said keeps the LBS stuck and open to further damage. But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries. As some have said it is similar to how one has empathy towards an addict (this is one of the similar threads in this disorder, there is an “addiction” like element). This is harder and maybe should not be focus on early on, which is where there is complete detachment, hard boundaries, and the empathy and love is really for the LBS. Because I have always found to have empathy for others in pain, as long as it comes from a place of complete detachment and without taking on any of their pain or well being is both very healing and helpful for me. It helps me let go and be at peace. So that empathy/compassion/understanding is for me and is internal.

I think this post says it all really.

[Treasur]

Thank you, Marvin, I found that very helpful today 

[Acorn]

   But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries   

Good point.

Am I correct in thinking that you might be referring to healthy emotional detachment in which one can have empathy for MLCer’s suffering without being overwhelmed or feeling manipulated by him/her?

I suggest that it is important to practice understanding and empathy for oneself to erect a safety zone (stillness) and strong boundaries to uphold one’s integrity and dignity.  I suggest that is the way one learns how to practice the same toward MLCer. 

After all, even Jesus said ‘love your neighbour as yourself.’

[Treasur]

Good point too Acorn.
Empathy and understanding for oneself FIRST.....which is basic emotional self care really....tends to reduce our own emotional 'neediness'....which makes detachment and boundaries much easier....which creates the space for empathy and quiet, maybe unexpressed, understanding for others.

For some reason today, I am sad about a lot of the festive associations and bits of my old life.
In the past, when I felt sad, I would have then felt one of two other things....like a resentful victim who lost things bc my xh stole them from me....or a hurt child who was abandoned by someone who never valued these things or me. Neither were great tbh lol.
Now, I just accept that some things are lost, i feel sad about it and haven't yet reached a point when I have replaced them with new things or stopped missing them. Nothing to do with my xh at all really. I have no idea how he feels about anything as I have NC with him but were we to ever talk again, I imagine it would be much easier to understand or empathise if his feelings had nothing much to do with my feelings. It certainly makes it easier to accept his choices without feeling invested in whether they turned out well for him or not, whether he has regrets or is having the best Christmas of his life.
But part of that sometimes just requires me to say oh dear, I feel a bit sad and kindly let it pass through.

[Acorn]

Dear Treasur, I think what you are feeling is an integral part of healing process.  You are good. You are not skipping or suppressing this necessary step.

“What is LBSCrisis really, let’s not oversimplify things.’

[Treasur]

Dear Treasur, I think what you are feeling is an integral part of healing process.  You are good. You are not skipping or suppressing this necessary step.

“What is LBSCrisis really, let’s not oversimplify things.’

 

[marvin4242]

   But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries   

Am I correct in thinking that you might be referring to healthy emotional detachment in which one can have empathy for MLCer’s suffering without being overwhelmed or feeling manipulated by him/her?

That is definitely a part of it. Empathy is the ability to feel and relate to another. But without clear and firm boundaries this empathy usually leads to us trying to fix, to help, to extend ourselves way beyond any healthy bounds. I believe empathy is the core of everything that is rich and meaningful in life, what allows us to be kind and to feel love and loved. Usually we are not encouraged to have these firm boundaries, sometimes we are told we are “selfish” if we don’t put others ahead of us.

And this is why empathy may be such a trap until we have our boundaries fully up. No contact, taking our focus off others, working on ourselves are all a chance to learn this. That is just one man’s view.

[Treasur]

And small reminder on why this stuff feels so messy...that I remember reading on an old thread...in most cases, these were nice people who went nuts

[xyzcf]

And this is why empathy may be such a trap until we have our boundaries fully up. No contact, taking our focus off others, working on ourselves are all a chance to learn this.

Boundaries are going to be very different in each situation. Whether there are children involved, if they are physically abusive, if they are not contributing financially.....and the length of time since BD plus our own temperament.

For some people, NC is necessary for them to heal.

This discussion has me thinking about what are my boundaries? I actually enjoy the time we spend together and understand his need for "space". I think, that in my case the "boundary" is that I am not the one making contact, I don't "need" anything from him and when we spend time together, he leaves and I continue as always..perhaps because I know he'll be in contact with me again.

He's in a different place in his crisis, but certainly, in my mind anyway, he's still is running and most likely has not resolved issues that caused him to run...but I have no idea really what he has worked through for we don't share personal stuff that way. One thing that I find interesting though is the things he does share with me, show me that he still trusts me very much.

Just wanting to know what others see as actual "boundaries" for them.

[rosetintedglasses]

Marvin

Thanks for starting this thread I am very much enjoying reading it, your thoughts are also the way I think and I like that.

NYM I am also very much enjoying your take on this and I think I ‘get’ what you are saying completely. If I was in a work/office environment I think I would be giving you an action to start a project group about what you are talking about! Ha ha. Hope that translates as it’s meant to! Please count me in to any group you get together to look at MLC so our children can avoid it if at all possible. FWIW I think of it like post partum depression which used to be called ‘the baby blues’ until recently when they have realised it’s a ‘proper’ thing and started making people aware of it as a possibility after having a baby. I would love to have ‘mid life crisis’ rebranded in society and made a ‘proper’ thing that people are aware of can happen at mid life. That would be stage one. Stage two, how to prevent/treat it would be the next hurdle.

Rose 🌹

[Not Applicable]

I think people on here should at least be encouraged to put their children first when dealing with the MLCer and try to shield them from as many negative aspects as possible. When you look at how many of these MLCers are re-enacting their childhood and their parents' wrongs you have to worry that the next generation is going to repeat. I would just ask every woman on here, do you want your son's wife to suffer like you did? Or your daughter's husband to suffer like you did? It's not the LBS's fault what the MLCer did but I do think how the LBS reacts can make a difference in how the kids handle it.

I'm not sure how one can shield their kids but there is plenty of research out there on ACEs that might be a good place to start. Even the CDC recently recommended that actions be taken to reduce the number of ACEs that kids are exposed in order to prevent health/psychological problems later in life.

Over the summer I got to know a 15 year old who you would have thought was 23 because he was so mature and intelligent beyond his years. But after some time I found out why. He had a horrific childhood and terrible things happened to his parents and then he was raised by people that had their own set of problems that were taken out on him and he had just moved in with some other people who seemed to be good to him as far as I could tell, but even that situation was probably precarious because they weren't his legal guardians. So he had to grow up early.

When he told me his story, I said one thing to him, my H is having a midlife crisis and I told him about some of the bad things that had happened in his childhood. I said to him point blank look, you should get some counseling to deal with everything that happened to you before you hit the age of 40 and blow up your marriage because you never dealt with all these things that happened to you as a child and you will start going out with a younger coworker for lunch who reminds you of your mother and then dump your wife for her (and I explained to him the logic of why he would do this knowing his issue with his mother, which actually involved going out to lunch!).

I even had a similar discussion with a relative. I met up with earlier this year for the first time in a couple decades. Her mother had a breakdown (possibly MLC or maybe something more) when she was 15 and she was recently married. I told her about my H and told her I hoped she had dealt with her childhood because it might happen to her too.

[marvin4242]

NYM: such a great thing to do and I really hope they heard you.

[Milly]

Nothing to add, but just wanted to say that I'm following and enjoying this thread.

[Limboland2018]

Hey NYM

Yes I’m worried about the effect my ex is having on our daughter. 2 weeks ago she said “I miss my daddy more than he loves me”. She’s 4. She’s perceptive and smart. He makes no real effort to connect with her. Hell he even moved countries to be with his woman and didn’t contact her for 2 months. He speaks to her maybe once every two weeks now and will spend the night with her when he’s traveling back to our country of residence. He mentioned ages ago he wants to see her after Xmas but hasn’t mentioned it again. (I assume he’s back with his ho bag and is with her around this time)

Unfortunately I am dealing with the awful reality that what my daughter said is true. I’ve been told to be honest. I tell my daughter daddy loves her but he’s sick. I’ve had psychological advice and I take her to art therapy and we do it together. I can’t help what my ex has done but I can make sure she has a strong relationship with me and try to ease the pain of his actions.

In the future I worry that she will be attracted to a man like her father.  If she thinks this is love then she will be attracted to any man that ignores her and treats her badly. I’m an older mum so I’m not sure I will be around if she goes through something like this. My parents have helped me a lot.

[Velika]

The best thing that could be done for our spouses and those like them in the future is for doctors to take a clinical approach. Your rubbing your patients' back is a poor substitute for a doctor saving their life.

And the first step towards that is a clinical definition of mlc. I would rather my husband (and me) had never had to go through this at all than to worry about how to reconcile.

No progress will be made for future lbses who come to this forum until medical science recognizes s clearly defined cluster of symptoms in a cohort of the population not a sample of one.

This would be a great thread to do it if one could put aside one's own relationship for a moment and focus on the mlcer. Not to get them back but to define the illness

I completely agree with this. I think most of our suffering comes from this not being recognized as an illness. I would say actually the stereotype of "midlife crisis" is the number one impediment to many of us getting help.

Many of us can see quite clearly and right away that something is wrong with our spouse that is beyond simply feeling restless or unhappy. I would never have even thought to call this a "midlife crisis" until other people used this term with me. Up close, it looks like psychosis.

I deeply believe, too, that stereotypes about divorces and affairs come from MLC-type behavior. In most articles about affairs, there is no mention of mental illness, even though hypersexuality is actually quite common in mania.

I think it is unfortunate, as I believe someone could make real breakthroughs about the brain by studying MLC. While I don't think that MLCers would line up to be studied, I do think that if you took a cohort of, say, recently divorced, tattoed men who purchased motorcycles in their late forties and early fifties — and paid them – you could probably have a sizable group to study.

[xyzcf]

I do think that if you took a cohort of, say, recently divorced, tattoed men who purchased motorcycles in their late forties and early fifties — and paid them – you could probably have a sizable group to study.

Paying subjects to be a part of a study will skew the results so your data would not be valid.

Many MLCers do not divorce, MLCers are also single people, my husband doesn't have any tattoos, many men (what about women as well) have tattoos but are not in a MLC, same with purchasing a motorcycle.

These are such cliches. Is this what you think MLC is?

There are actually clinical studies that have been done and are ongoing concerning mid life crisis. I just goggled "midlife crisis research studies" and there are pages listed.

On HS we also have a thread about articles that people have read that pertain to MLC. The latest titled "Links/Blogs/Articles for us all to share 8 " is number 8 in the threads that have been devoted to sharing what is known about MLC.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11123.msg742776#msg742776

I personally have had several people in "real life" tell me that my husband is in a mid life crisis as soon as I started to explain what had happened. Even our financial advisor recognized what was happening and had seen it several times before.

As for NYM's comment about putting your children first, sometimes it is not up to the LBSer but the court who decides upon the visitation rights. 3boys4me is presently facing that nightmare and there is nothing she can do to stop the damaging effects of having to force her boys to spent time with their dad..because it has been court ordered.

Just my thoughts as I see it.

[Penelope2018]

The only thing I have to contribute is tons of studies pay people for their participation. Medical studies are always posted on campuses and local stores for pay, or at least they used to be. There's a whole platform (Amazon Mechanical Turk) that hosts research groups from Duke, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Oxford and tons of others who posts studies all day, every day for payments ranging from a nickel to over $100. And many have screeners for certain attributes they are looking for (history of mental illness, age, sex, family size, job status, marital, etc, etc). I do mturk as a side gig. They pay students who are on campus much more for the same things.

[Not Applicable]

Paying subjects to be a part of a study will skew the results so your data would not be valid.

But it is done every day in medicine. I don't know what planet that you were living on as a nurse to not know that is a very common, standard practice.

Please show us all those ongoing "clincial" studies on "midlife crisis" too.

[Thunder]

Very interesting, xyzcf.  I just googled "midlife crisis research studies."

I never knew these studies were going on.
Thanks for sharing.

[Treasur]

I'm sure NYM there were more courteous ways to ask the same questions.

As xyz said and Thunder did and NYM probably could, a quick google search threw up quite a lot. Here in the UK interestingly the latest research seems to come from two starting places; looking at it as a socio-economic issue or looking at in terms of a 'happiness dip' U-curve from a psychological one. Haven't hunted but didn't see much looking at from a medical or neuroscience POV. Perhaps there is a difference between research on cause and research on effect. And of course neither predicates that prevention is possible does it?

My sense here in the UK is that it is becoming seen as a 'real' thing in mental health academia. As is the QLC actually. But there are different perspectives and it is still early days in research terms and in that translating into the kind of workable frameworks that everyday therapists, psychiatrists, policy makers or health care providers would use.

Another HS poster mentioned the work of a psychoanalyst John Steiner on 'psychic retreats' which is also imho rather interesting reading.

Which is all very interesting for some perhaps. Curious minds here could I'm sure reach out to some of these academic researchers directly if they wanted to learn more. Or indeed some might choose to do PhD research on this very topic depending on their current profession....

But how that serves you as an individual on HS effected by it imho is a separate question.
Just as research on the causes of say alcoholism does not necessarily help me much with a drunken spouse screaming abuse on my doorstep when the shared anecdotal experience of Al-Anon might.
Jmo.

[Not Applicable]

When I talked about there being no studies, those were not the kind of studies I was talking about. The U-curve study is an old and known one, but really has nothing specifically to do with MLC and is a psychological study. Socio-economic studies get even further away from the point I am trying to make. The fact is if you search PubMed, which is considered the standard source for medical research studies, NOT Google, you will not really find anything.

[Treasur]

Which is what I said.
And supports the thread title premise.

And so, NYM? I am genuinely struggling to understand the purpose behind your point. Let's agree say that you can't find the kind of medical research study that you think needs to be done. Other than just standing on a metaphorical street corner shouting at us about it, your point is....?

[Whyus]

Greta thread but...……

While I don't think that MLCers would line up to be studied, I do think that if you took a cohort of, say, recently divorced, tattoed men who purchased motorcycles in their late forties and early fifties — and paid them – you could probably have a sizable group to study.
Really? UM, thats up put in a draw then!!! There are recently divorced, tattooed men with motorcycles reading along who also have Feelings. Also a couple of recently divorced, tattooed WOmen with motorcycles.

[Not Applicable]

Which is what I said.
And supports the thread title premise.

And so, NYM? I am genuinely struggling to understand the purpose behind your point. Let's agree say that you can't find the kind of medical research study that you think needs to be done. Other than just standing on a metaphorical street corner shouting at us about it, your point is....?

Read the thread title again. Maybe that will help.

You may be genuinely struggling with understanding my point, but just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean you have to jump to the conclusion I am standing on street corner shouting for no reason.

Just as the thread title says, let's not oversimplify things. Perhaps MLC is a lot more complex than we know.

Have you ever heard the saying "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

The more we learn about MLC, the more we should realize how little we do know and the more we should realize the need for more studies and knowledge. That is, if we actually are learning anything at all.

In other words, know-it-alls probably know nothing.

[Not Applicable]

Greta thread but...……

While I don't think that MLCers would line up to be studied, I do think that if you took a cohort of, say, recently divorced, tattoed men who purchased motorcycles in their late forties and early fifties — and paid them – you could probably have a sizable group to study.
Really? UM, thats up put in a draw then!!! There are recently divorced, tattooed men with motorcycles reading along who also have Feelings. Also a couple of recently divorced, tattooed WOmen with motorcycles.

And that's why such a study would be so interesting. Because it would put the stereotype to a test and see if there is any foundation to it.

[marvin4242]

NYM: I for one have been reading everything you say, I have written a detailed response, including how there is much more understanding from the mind/psychology viewpoint about MLC, how our brain/neuropsychological understanding of basic brain functions are limited, much less highly complex behavioral analysis, how we know a lot more about this than everyone keeps saying.

Yet you ignore all of that, and do go back to repeating ad nauseam about hard medical studies. Well one day in the far future we can scan the brain and from the low level stuff derive what is going on with someone. Maybe 200 years or more in the future. And it may not tell us much more than what we understand from the psychological studies. I highly doubt there is a dominant neurochemical component to MLC. So there is no pill, no procedure that will fix it. We have complex psychological structure that are built and reinforced over years, all resulting in highly complicated neural pathways and networks throughout our brains.

So I repeat a different version of Thunders question: as much as i respect you have a particular lens you wish to understand this from what exactly do you think will happen if you did? And why are you so adamant to ignore the much more relevant and knowledgeable field that already explains this if its not simply from fear, bias, or bad experience?

[Helpingme!]

Whyus I didn't know UM had tattoos, ha. Left out the skinny jeans. Wearing those in late 40s and 50s should be on the list. 
Sorry Whyus.  I couldn't pass it up. Rock on brother.

[Not Applicable]

Fear, bias or bad experience?

Seriously? 

No, my interests simply lie elsewhere. My interest is in the brain. That's actually why I joined this forum in the first place, not because it was a support forum. Because I wanted to learn more about how the brain is affected and how it works during MLC. If you don't believe this, go back and read my first posts here.

There is a lot of medical research out there that may help shed light on MLC, but it's not ABOUT MLC. It's about things that play a role in MLC. Nothing about the big picture exists.

Psychology provides a descriptive explanation, but it does not explain the underlying mechanisms and parts of the brain involved.

Someone interested in the socio-economic reasons that there is a high murder rate in Chicago in the summer probably could find an answer that satisfies them in socio-economic data. But a meteorologist who was interested in the weather would probably be more interested in the role the weather plays in making the rates soar and they probably could find weather data to support them too. That doesn't mean either party has fear, bias or bad experience, just a different approach.

in any case, I won't talk about medicine anymore. It's clearly not welcome and I am not going to speculate why, but if anyone is interested in continuing the discussion you can PM me.



 

[Nerissa]

Fear, bias or bad experience?

Seriously? 

No, my interests simply lie elsewhere. My interest is in the brain. That's actually why I joined this forum in the first place, not because it was a support forum. Because I wanted to learn more about how the brain is affected and how it works during MLC. If you don't believe this, go back and read my first posts here.

There is a lot of medical research out there that may help shed light on MLC, but it's not ABOUT MLC. It's about things that play a role in MLC. Nothing about the big picture exists.

Psychology provides a descriptive explanation, but it does not explain the underlying mechanisms and parts of the brain involved.

Someone interested in the socio-economic reasons that there is a high murder rate in Chicago in the summer probably could find an answer that satisfies them in socio-economic data. But a meteorologist who was interested in the weather would probably be more interested in the role the weather plays in making the rates soar and they probably could find weather data to support them too. That doesn't mean either party has fear, bias or bad experience, just a different approach.

in any case, I won't talk about medicine anymore. It's clearly not welcome and I am not going to speculate why, but if anyone is interested in continuing the discussion you can PM me.

As Marvin has explained, there is plenty of work in these kinds of issues being done in leading universities and medical centres but the depth and breadth of the research is beyond the scope of a non professional, general support forum.  My impression, NYM, is that you think of these issues in a literal way.  You have explicitly said you are uninterested in psychological research and are focusing on the brain. It has been explained that this isn’t a problem of the brain.  The mind is a larger and non-concrete concept and so the scope of the work is beyond what you are asking for.  It isn t that people are not interested.  As an analogy, think of the way the treatment of diabetes has evolved - from being about sugar intake in the 1970,s, to understanding metabolism of carbohydrates and the effects of exercise and the understanding that different people have different body chemistry and research into this is   Ongoing. (Eg that some respond to fasting etc). That different psychologies need different treatment plans.  People are complex and need holistic treatment for physical ailments and thisnaplies even more to issues of personality, temperament and life/relationship experiences.

[Nerissa]

Maybe 200 years or more in the future. And it may not tell us much more than what we understand from the psychological studies. I

Marvin refers to brain scans here and says they will not necessarily tell us more than we already observe in psychological studies.  I also find it fascinating that information being discovered by neuroscience confirms and reinforces what psychoanalysis has observed and recorded over the last hundred years or so.  The most prominent practitioners of this kind of work are interested in and marrying both fields.  But in the end the changes need to be in behaviours and thoughts.  So no matter what is going on in the brain of someone with issues related to borderline personality disturbance, for example, the best treatment is behavioural therapy that helps someone recognise and alter destructive thought patterns. Medicine, aside from anti psychotics, where needed,  doesn’t do much for this.

[marvin4242]

NYM: first please realize I was not challenging you, it was a question. You have made much more blunt statements to others and were surprised they were offended. Why is my question offensive?

Also I for one am in no way trying to “shut down” the medical discussion. I just am offering that there may be multiple ways to look at this problems, and narrowing the lens down to one element is a bit like putting blinders on. And I am curious why are you so dismissive of the vast body of knowledge and studies in the field of psychology when you are curious about the explanation. Medicine is one one lens through which we can analyze this.

I do not share your view that psychology doesn’t describe the underlying mechanism, it does rather well. It doesn’t do it at the neurochemical paradigm, rather in the paradigm of stimulus/response, cause/effect, learning/memory/response pathways etc etc. Does not make at any less valid. It would be a little bit like saying I can’t predict the path a ball will take when I throw it unless I can understand all the underlying quantum mechanics of all the particles that make up the ball.

Nerissa: thank you for saying what I was trying to say so much better!   

[Nerissa]

I’m having a break from present wrapping. So....in psychoanalysis there has long been huge emphasis on the mother. Hence the joke -  “If it isn’t one thing it’s your mother”.

Current research (Alan Schore, UCLA David Gergen medical centre) suggests that the seat of ALL emotion resides in the right brain.  That includes moral behaviours.  Research suggests that right brain development depends upon unconscious communication between the right brains of mother and infant.  My tutor described it simply as ‘communication between mother and baby that the “ordinary devoted grandmother” would not be aware of’

Now if that development goes awry, how is it to be altered?  What does it look like?  So far, my understanding is that  the only possibility of remedy  is through relationship.  That could be very good and healthy good personal relationships and/or through a skilled and knowledgeable therapist who helps to encourage empathy and connection.  It also demands willingness to attend long term therapy and a wish to change. Even then it is remedial
Work and not necessarily a ‘cure’ . The brain scan is neither here nor there for the time being, since we can feel lack of empathy or ‘normal’ emotional expression
And relational reciprocity  (we can even feel it through the Internet 😉)

[Milly]

Nerissa, you always have such intelligent information.

Love that you're present wrapping. Mine will take 10 minutes this year. Can't wait to meet up with you again when I next come to London.