[Not Applicable]

This a list of codes. There's a code for practically everything, including being the subsequent incident of being struck by an orca and any one of hundreds of other encounters with animals, some very obscure.

https://www.practicefusion.com/icd-10/animal-codes-icd-10/

It is not the same as medical research.

If you want something that actually is meaningful, try this:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/preventingACES-508.pdf

And no it's not about MLC, ti's not going to do our own MLCers any good. But it's something that could help the next generation and prevent MLC down the line.

A lot of oldtimers hang out in this forum because they want to help newbies. Is there anyone who sees the big picture and sees that prevention of this horrible illness needs to start before any LBS needs to come here?

This forum only exists because there is no solution to MLC. And that is a sad state of affairs.

[AlvinTheMaker]

It is not the same as medical research.

ICD is way more than a list. It is a classification system based on medical research, and aimed and used by medical professionals, researchers etc. It is the base foundation of pretty much everything in modern healthcare. You want meds or treatment or research for something? If it is not on the list it is not happening. If the symptoms dont match with whats defined on ICD, then you've got something else than you think. ICD list is not just index, but the heart of of modern medical healthcare.

Or as Wikipedia definition puts it: "ICD-10 is the 10th revision of the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), a medical classification list by the World Health Organization (WHO). It contains codes for diseases, signs and symptoms, abnormal findings, complaints, social circumstances, and external causes of injury or diseases.

And it gives a somewhat precise definition of MLC (as seen by medical professionals), as well as hints what might be the underlying conditions (and their respective ICD codes).

Alvin 

[Not Applicable]

Show me the medical literature. I'm not interested in psychological literature. Medical please. Show me the literature about what happens to the brain specifically at midlife that results in the cluster of behaviors we see in our spouses.

Go up one level in your classification, and you will notice it is considered a "psychosocial" issue:
https://icdlist.com/icd-10/index/problems-related-to-social-environment-z60

I know there are plenty of psychological theories, but as I said, I really am interested in it from a neurological perspective. One can cobble together research on the brain that is relevant on a piecemeal basis, but there is really nothing that deals with the specific cluster of symptoms we see.

I am not discounting any of the psychological research that may have been done. I just think that research on midlife crisis is in its infancy and that there is so much more potential. I am not here to criticize anyone's beliefs, or anyone's standing, or choices they make in how they handle their spouse's MLC. But this forum could have so much more potential if we worked together and were more active in advocating for the kind of research that is needed. It might not help our spouses but how can you not go through this and wish there could be a way to prevent it from happening to someone else?

I guess too many people are too busy putting on their oxygen masks and waiting for the return of their MLCer to be able to look at the big picture beyond themselves and their spouses.

[AlvinTheMaker]

One can cobble together research on the brain that is relevant on a piecemeal basis, but there is really nothing that deals with the specific cluster of symptoms we see.

That's the downside with "umbrella" conditions. They cover such a wide spectre of symptoms, sidekicks, consequences etc...   For example "memory difficulties or personality changes" or "anhedonia" are such symptoms all of us can relate.  They can be found with depression, anxiety, dementia, BBD, MLC and hundreds of others conditions.  It makes sense for medical industry to research this stuff on "lowest possible level" (symptom), and then apply what it is learned to all the conditions where it is found. Thus you end up with piecemeal - most scientific research covers one very specific slot  of some symptom (for example role of neurotransmitters in anhedonia), which can relate to number of conditions and illnesses. 

Sadly the end result is of very similar to ICD classification.... You get potentially thousands of small pieces that need to be magically glued together to make the big picture.

You want medical literature for something that matches the cluster of symptoms?   First step would be to isolate the symptoms (based on their ICD code/name), and then simply check out what neuro-research is done on them....  I think there was a thread very similar to that somewhere in the archives ( possibly by Anjae or Velika, I don't recall as it's been a good while since I read it through). 

Alvin

[Not Applicable]

I know about those threads. I participated in them myself. It was a rhetorical question that I was asking.

[marvin4242]

NYM: not that your basic premise is not valid, we simply do not know enough about the neurological/physiological manifestations of human behaviour at this point about most things, even simply things, much less the highly complex conditions that we experience. So to try to stick to a “medical” discussion isn’t going to get any answers at this time. Psychology is a valid science, and has the most complete and comprehensive knowledge about what is going on. By comparison neurophysiology is in its infancy of describing the underlying wiring. We are combination of the mind (psychology) and the brain (neurosciences) and studying one without the other is incomplete. And one field is much more advanced than the other at this time, and its best imo to use the best knowledge rather than dismiss it because neurosciences can’t provide the other half of the information to explain.

I also think understanding MLC should be done at the behaviour level in our context, because we are not neurosurgeons, we are not looking for a pill, and we are not going to help ourselves by understanding nerve cell firing potential curves or how complex neural networks adapt over time. We have to understand ourselves, our own needs and motivation, and how all of these were massively impacted by the fracturing of the psyches of someone who was the closest person to us in our lives.

So I’ll go back to the basic premise for me here: this is a complicated and complex event, anyone trying to reduce it simple dynamics from some basic 101 level psychological principles, or trying to treat it like a normal “relationship” and interacting with the MLCers in that way is bound to experience pain. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Not Applicable]

It doesn't matter how you deal with them, you are going to experience pain. MLC is NOT about how we react to it. There are people who are going to naturally react in a good way, those who are going to naturally react in a bad way, and those who read MLC advice or normal psychological advice and follow it.

In my experience, the advice for MLC that is out there is primarily useful for counteracting monstering and angry behavior. For example, one of the best pieces of advice is the line from HB where she says, "They can't argue with a closed mouth." That saved my ass many times. I remember one time simply putting a pillow over my face and refusing to remove it. It took a few minutes to get him out of the room, but NOTHING good would have come from me doing anything else but that.

Otherwise, if they aren't monstering, I find the best thing is just to be yourself. You will feel better, regardless of how they react. It's simply easier to do what comes naturally to you.

None of this I am saying has anything to do with reconciliation. I'm not there yet so I am not going to be presumptuous and say it is the key. But as someone whose spouse went into the anger phase of MLC 4 years ago next month and has been a stay-at-home (I should add we have been apart about 8 months during that time due to things that have nothing to do with his MLC) it is true when they say this is a marathon and the only advice I can give that is sustainable is to just do what feels right to you without regard for the long term outcomes.

MLC has complex causes and effects. But i think how we deal with it is easiest if we keep it REALLY simple on our part.

As for the brain, no we don't know much now, until someone puts an MLCer under an MRI or something. That doesn't mean it isn't possible in the future that we will know. And that is what I am trying to stress. We can discuss the whole thing until the cows come home, and we will never move forward in our understanding one step until it is subjected to a more scientifically rigorous approach.

[Keep believing]

Even if the medical field classified mlc as a disease or medical condition, the mlcer doesnt think there is anything wrong with them. So  how would you go about helping someone in this case.? Its like an alcoholic. The only one that can truly dx this disease is the alcoholic  himself. Sure everyone else knows there is a problem but alcoholic is in denial. Same with mlc. Until  they  decide that they have had enough, when the pain is bad enough, when they want to change their life , thats when they will seek help.

[marvin4242]

In light of another very salient thread I wanted to amend this: no matter what MLC is, no matter how much “understanding” one has, or any other factors I believe these to be absolute truth:

- First you MUST take care of yourself. It really does not matter what is going on inside your MLCer, you must ALWAYS put your physical, emotional and financial well being first. There are no “buts” or modifiers to these imo. Understand and compassion DOES NOT mean self destruction.

- Second they are absolutely responsible for their actions and its consequences. None of what is happening changes what happens to the people around them, it does not diminish the pain nor the damage. It is not a punitive thing, it is simply reality. They are causing the destruction, they have to leave with consequences and feedback from it.

- Third being kind and compassionate is a choice. It has to come after we have found our footing, have gone through all the stages of grieving the loss (and before that facing that it is a loss and give up illusion that it will be ok). And if we don’t get there that is fine to. But again kindness and compassion can not at our expense.

Sometimes when people believe in one they think the other can not hold. I firmly believe you can love, be empathetic and kind and absolutely hold all the rest at the same time. Take care of yourself first is not just a motto.

[Treasur]

I agree with this so much, Marvin.
And I think it is our own beliefs that get in the way usually.

That we can't accept the reality of the risk, so don't do the first.
That we see them as needing more 'help' than we do, so don't do the second.
That we feel like resentful or disempowered victims, so don't do the third.

Imho we make some of this choices an either/or when they don't always need to be. But there probably is a 1 2 3 set of steps as Marvin suggests and we get to choose.