[Whyus]

This Thread is fantastic, unfortunately I find it difficult to post as it seems to have gone off in many different directions.

What is MLC really???
I wish I knew. I believe there are different ingredients which you could use to make a MLC soup. Its like taking all the leftovers and throwing them in a Pan to create a quick dish, It doesnt really matter what goes in the pan, with the Right seasoning you will get a dish which is edible.


Foo issues seems to be a common factor, it is certainly a factor with my XW and her MLC.
Social pressure also seems to be a key ingredient. Many of our spouces are/were succesful at their Jobs and well respected in the community. These people were not idiots!
A spiritual battle my XW is Roman Catholic, as are my Boys. She used to nuse in a Cathlic hospital run by nuns. Her Whatsapp pic post BD was of a Vampire princess with the words "The devil sits at the end of my bed and admires his masterpiece"... I told her it was inapropriate and she laughed at me. The boys went crazy when they saw it and she removed it "It was only a Joke".... nobody found it funny!
The Media just a small observation from my story..... Pre BD XW watched alot of Series. True Blood, Outsider, The Vampire Diaries, The Originals, GofT..... one thing they all have in common is that the leading female character had more than one lover!. it may be a coincidence but these affairs were made out to be harmlos and "cool" by the filmmakers.
She also had a Spotify Playlist named "walk away and dont look back" which she hammered through her headphones until she believed what was being said in all of the songs. Some kind of brainwashing.
The Addict I too believe that they are like Alcohol or drug addicts, they dont have a Problem but everybody else sees it!
mental Illness there sure is a Kind of Depression involved, I think we can all agree on that Point.

A Question..... im curious!!!

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"...…… id like to reverse that and ask  "would you stay with your Partner if they were having an Affair because they were an alcoholic? Would the Alcohol be made responsible for the Affair or make the behaviour acceptable?

[Treasur]

I guess the different directions, WhyUs, are part of recognising that it isn't a simple thing in either cause or effect. Even if there seem to be some common patterns in what we see and share.

My take on the 'illness' issue fwiw. I think most of us initially see them as 'mentally ill' bc their behaviour is so extreme or unfamiliar and want to 'help' them. Hence the debates here about accountability and forgiveness etc. Imho these folks do experience a kind of breakdown and do behave in many ways that have roots in depression, anxiety or mania. However, what helped me was when a friend of mine whose husband was a recovered alcoholic said to me that I should treat him like an addict who was not ready to deal with his addiction. That it did not make the behaviour any more acceptable to live with, that he was responsible for his addiction or recovery, but it might help me to be able to think of him in a way that separated the person I loved from the addict he was now. And that if he ever stopped behaving like an addict and showed up in recovery, I could decide how I felt about the recovered addict then. I found that quite helpful in both plotting my course and in deciding how I felt about the person he was compared to who he is. And of course the common ground in both situations is that I cannot help an addict who does not want to stop being an addict.....and true too that a recovered addict is not the same person exactly as they were before addiction ran the show.

So, I guess, with my long-gone h, it doesn't feel much different from if he were lost in an alcohol fuelled dump or slumped somewhere with a needle in his arm. I am very sad about it and i have no idea if he will ever get well. Or if he will show up in my life again in some form if he does. I can pray for him and I suppose I can decide if I will open my door and listen if he recovers or not. That's about it. It got to a point when it was too painful to watch so it is easier that he has gone.

I am also aware that framing it that way may be quite inaccurate or a bit of denial lol but it is the only way I can keep my own memory of who he was which matters to me, so hey ho. The universe may give me new information sometime that challenges that picture and if so, I'll adapt to that then.

I don't think every spouse here has had this kind of great unravelling breakdown.
But, on balance, i suspect my h probably did and if he wants to recover, I guess the complexity of why and how is more his business than mine.

But I recognise most of the ingredients you listed as part of your xw's MLC dish, the oppositeness that is so strange to witness. Conway I think was about right....job, body, spouse and God are the four basic pillars that they play with in trying out a new self in this process....some more than others...but it comes out in some very strange ways as you say. Respected Catholic nurse and mother to Devil-guided Vampire Teenage Princess as you say, there does seem to be a teenager flavour to most.....  From the little I can see, my xh went from Small Village Aspiring Vicar And Community Good Guy with Cats to Athiest Wannabe Big Swinging City Cool d!ck with a Crazy Drama Blonde 

[Not Applicable]

People use a lot of metaphors to describe MLC. But is that because we really don't understand it properly?

I know I keep harping on the brain, but think of it this way. Epilepsy used to be and still is thought by some to be caused by demonic possession. People take their children for exorcisms. But doctors will tell you it has a neurological basis. But before doctors were able to determine this, the only explanation people had was demonic possession.

So you can blame MLC on Satan, describe it as baking, alien abduction, fog or whatever. But underlying all that there may actually be an explanation that doesn't require all those metaphors because it is a problem in the brain.

And just because the research hasn't been done, just because we aren't neurologists on here, doesn't make that possibility any less plausible.

The question was what is MLC REALLY? REALLY. My point is that we may not yet have that knowledge but it does not mean it is necessarily unattainable.

[nah]

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"...

RCR describes MLC as a dis-ease NOT a disease.

Maybe they think RCR is wrong.

[Treasur]

Fair point,  NYM, but not sure if you are saying there's anything we could/should do to make that happen? Or if it is just a kind of LBS Santa's wish list item?

Idk actually if any researchers are working on this kind of stuff. Maybe others here do know.

I often draw on my experience of PTSD in thinking about MLC tbh. There were external events and psychological responses which created the path to my PTSD. Once I had PTSD though, yes, it absolutely was a brain issue as well as a psychological one. Bits of my brain stopped working so much and others went into overdrive....completely outwith my conscious control until I got the right kind of treatment...the psychological bits were probably what shaped my individual PTSD behaviours bc although there are commonalities, not all PTSD sufferers behave in the same way. It would not surprise me at all if something similar was the case in MLC. I believe that severe depression shows up in a different pattern of brain activity in a scan just as PTSD does? And i think most of us see depression as a contributing factor in MLC?

I suppose for us here the question remains what one needs or wants to do about the research information that is or is not available?

[Acorn]

Some members like to compare a MLCer with somebody being Ill. Ive read quotes similar to "would you leave your Partner if they had "X" illness"

For me personally, Whyus, I had plenty of empathy and understanding for my H’s deep pain due to his emotional turmoil.  However, I had no right, though I desperately wanted, to take away his personal responsibility for his destructive behaviour.   To write off or minimize his personal responsibility would have served me, not him (what did he care?!) as that would have painted him as a pitiful creature who couldn’t help himself and, thus, elevating my ‘saintliness’ in my own eyes.  A halo and all.  But that’s just me. 

Continuing to minimize his responsibility would also have justified my hanging on to the reconciliation fantasy long term.  Clear eyed full recognition of his terrible choices would have been a real dream destroyer but necessary.  The way I see it, to dwell in fantasyland is a waste of the one and only life I have been given.  Again, that’s just me. 

Is there a remote possibility that ‘empathy and understanding’ angle is misused as wool over LBS’s eyes for his/her inability to let go of the fantasy, see reality and move forward?  I’m thinking I can’t be the only one who did just that for a while...

[Treasur]

Is there a remote possibility that ‘empathy and understanding’ angle is misused as wool over LBS’s eyes for his/her inability to let go of the fantasy, see reality and move forward?  I’m thinking I can’t be the only one who did just that for a while

Me too.
And then I got to the Grim Acceptance phase....which fortunately leads to the Acceptance More or Less phase lol.

There is an inherent kind of nonsense and arrogance in thinking we can possibly understand or think we know best about someone else's head isn't there? Particularly if they choose not to talk about it. I suspect for a while it is a mixture of displaced control and pink tutu denial for most of us. It was for me.
Bc reality hurt like a punch in the guts. I hated it. But it was/is still reality.

The only honest benefits I can see that come from it - and they take a bit of time and detachment tbh - is that we can choose (if we want to do so) to depersonalise it enough to not hate someone we used to love. And we can create our own answer to the WTF happened to my spouse and therefore my life question that we can live with without feeling insane or delusional.
But I think we can't know enough to really understand only speculate or infer or guess.
Sometimes we hear from the MLC horse's mouth but even then i suspect there's a limit to how much we can really understand. Probably why we use metaphor as NYM says. Whereas the reality of an absent spouse or a divorce or missing money or a new marriage or distressed children is more tangible and real isn't it? Grim perhaps, but reality.

[marvin4242]

I would say most of us, even if we have had our own experiences with disorder or trauma, still possibly can no experientially understand or know what is going on inside someone who is having a MLC type crises. We can maybe relate to bits and pieces but not the entire experience.

But to say it is “unknowable” is not true in my opinion. MLC is complex and is made up of multiple co-morbid and interacting events going on. We probably understand very well the dynamics of each component, I do not believe there is anything “new” or unique. The complexity may be that there are various facets and degrees of these events happening in different people, that is why although there are common themes the exact behaviour isn’t always the same. And like most mental health disorders there are common threads, but the entirety must be addressed in a unique way. I do not believe it is a neurological disorder or event, it is psychological. But obviously psychological events have neurological consequences.

As for empathy and understand: I would offer there are two versions. One is projected outward by LBSes in order to “justify,” to protect or maybe hope for reconciliation (if I love them enough, if I draw a bath, if I do xyz, it will all be ok). This one is destructive and as most of you have said keeps the LBS stuck and open to further damage. But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries. As some have said it is similar to how one has empathy towards an addict (this is one of the similar threads in this disorder, there is an “addiction” like element). This is harder and maybe should not be focus on early on, which is where there is complete detachment, hard boundaries, and the empathy and love is really for the LBS. Because I have always found to have empathy for others in pain, as long as it comes from a place of complete detachment and without taking on any of their pain or well being is both very healing and helpful for me. It helps me let go and be at peace. So that empathy/compassion/understanding is for me and is internal.

[Nerissa]

I would say most of us, even if we have had our own experiences with disorder or trauma, still possibly can no experientially understand or know what is going on inside someone who is having a MLC type crises. We can maybe relate to bits and pieces but not the entire experience.

But to say it is “unknowable” is not true in my opinion. MLC is complex and is made up of multiple co-morbid and interacting events going on. We probably understand very well the dynamics of each component, I do not believe there is anything “new” or unique. The complexity may be that there are various facets and degrees of these events happening in different people, that is why although there are common themes the exact behaviour isn’t always the same. And like most mental health disorders there are common threads, but the entirety must be addressed in a unique way. I do not believe it is a neurological disorder or event, it is psychological. But obviously psychological events have neurological consequences.

As for empathy and understand: I would offer there are two versions. One is projected outward by LBSes in order to “justify,” to protect or maybe hope for reconciliation (if I love them enough, if I draw a bath, if I do xyz, it will all be ok). This one is destructive and as most of you have said keeps the LBS stuck and open to further damage. But I offer there is another version of empathy and understanding and it comes from a place of stillness and boundaries. As some have said it is similar to how one has empathy towards an addict (this is one of the similar threads in this disorder, there is an “addiction” like element). This is harder and maybe should not be focus on early on, which is where there is complete detachment, hard boundaries, and the empathy and love is really for the LBS. Because I have always found to have empathy for others in pain, as long as it comes from a place of complete detachment and without taking on any of their pain or well being is both very healing and helpful for me. It helps me let go and be at peace. So that empathy/compassion/understanding is for me and is internal.

I think this post says it all really.

[Treasur]

Thank you, Marvin, I found that very helpful today