Author Topic: My Story Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?  (Read 2556 times)

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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My Story Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« on: January 06, 2020, 04:15:18 PM »
Old threads pass away and all things are new again........ ;)

Old thread: https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=11156.0


Update:
Waxing isn't that bad.........  :P

-SS

« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 04:17:47 PM by Standing Strong »
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2020, 11:17:35 PM »
Attaching....

How do you come up with these title's.  I had totally forgotten Memorex...

Re, waxing... I guess that's one way to try something new every day.  LOL.

Alvin.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2020, 03:22:02 AM »
Ah, as some of us know, it's not the waxing...it's the regrowth  :)
One word, Standing.
Exfoliation.  ;D
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2020, 12:59:11 PM »
You've got that right T...... little bumps all over my back today (maybe the back is ticked off from having all the hairs ripped out of it? I guess I'd be mad too.... LOL!!!!).

HaHa Alvin.... yeah, I'm a 80's/90's culture junkie. What a great time to grow up. The last generation before the internet was let out of Pandora's box.

Journaling:
Well..... two days to go until W returns. I'm getting a little anxious...... what's wrong with me? I'm stronger than ever, had a nice break along with some sleep (a lot of sleep), so why be anxious? I was so good while she was away... very strong. Oh... I know what it is: It's the unknown. How have the rules will have changed this time. Yup, that's it. [sigh] I can't even count how many times the rules have changed so far, or guess how many more times they will change: But that's the challenge, and I'm ready to meet it.

I was watching Ted talks on youtube about dysfunctional M's last night. Had a really good time watching them: All the speakers were women, and they were talking about "W's how to understand your H". I was nodding my head nonstop. "Yup, Yup.... very easy to understand..... women don't know this stuff?".
HAHAHAHHAHAHA
Of course, it was applying to relatively "normal" R's..... not MLC.
The nutshell version was: Men, you need to be more attentive and listen/hear. Women: you need to get over yourselves and still your thoughts (these were all women speakers mind you).
I think that was right on the money and good advise. I sure was guilty of what they talked about, but I'm not that anymore. On the other side, I knew W's brain is/was racing a million miles an hour and instead of slowing down..... she'd speed up: Do more, work harder, not relax, not stop, always more..... all because "she was a woman" (her words) and she always had something to prove against men in the workplace.... like working more was ever going to fix it..... she'd never, ever slow down especially if I'd ask her too "Oh I'll slow down at some point, I just can't now" (which went on for years and years and I stopped asking her to slow down after several years of insisting and her ignoring my request (I was very concerned, but she just didn't seem to care).
I knew it was dysfunctional back then and for all those years, but I was powerless to stop it. That was her choice, and I respected her choice. I tried to help as best I knew how, but she didn't want it (but I always felt like she wanted me to be like "poor you", and "of course you can have your way, you work so hard in other areas"...... but it can't be that way forever, no matter how much she succeeded it was never enough.... never. Her negativity only deepened the higher she climbed in the corporate world..... and then pre-shadow started, and they blended together so seamlessly).

And then it dawned on me (again): I'm learning so much.... growing so much, but W has never tried to learn........ anything about R's. That is something to be worked on (later)...... and I still have so much to learn (now). Funny how these things are eventually suppose to be equal in an R, but it always starts with one. That was a good reminder: I am the one. Waiting for someone else to change while doing nothing yourself is futile. Change must start in one and carry to the other (by example and by leading). I really hope and look forward to the day we can work together to improve our R, but that must follow her successfully getting thru MLC (no small feat).

Something very interesting across all the female speakers was the concept of affection in women who have problems with affection. They were talking about the chicken and the egg when it comes to certain women (I guess it could happen to men too, but they only referenced women) whereas most people think affectionate thoughts and then pursue affectionate actions but these people are reversed: They require affectionate actions in order to get affectionate thoughts..... but without the thoughts they have no desire for affectionate acts (LOL!!!!!). So they have to fight their instincts and hold still so their brain will wake up. Interesting right? This is far more common than is generally known. This makes me wonder..... if a lot people have this reversed order of affection, can it apply to other thought processes as well? What is different in an MLC'er who has this reversal vs an MLC'er who isn't reversed in this way?

The other thing they talked about was the physical pain someone experiences with abandonment, rejection and loneliness (caused by a spouse): It's unlike any other pain that scientists can measure in that there are changes in the brain which aren't observable in any other stimulus except physical injury. The poor LBS's are all under this strain, so it makes sense that we are hurt in a very different way that others simply can't understand (and why it's so difficult to recover from). It isn't just emotional, being an LBS also means physical trauma. No wonder some here have PTSD, or get "stuck", or who knows how deeply scarred they are? Emotional trauma, physical trauma. Brain altering trauma.

Just fascinating. I love to learn.

One day at a time,

-SS
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 01:03:59 PM by Standing Strong »
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 07:04:39 PM »
One day to go!!!

After days of no calls, no texting...... all of a sudden tonight..... text text text.

That makes me laugh. Not because I'm wanted or there's progress........ it's about I'm the hanger-on'er....... I'm the life she's going back to, I provide stability. Time to make nice with reality.
Not surprising, not in the least. I was expecting it. This morning I told myself "I bet she starts texting before she goes to the airport, and as she hits each airport".

Ding Ding Ding!!!! Tonight I get a text about leaving to the airport. A little while later, a text about getting to the airport. I bet in a little while I'll get a text about the plane either boarding or about to lift off..... and then one when she arrives stateside. LOL!!!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHAH!!!!

She's playing nice: Making sure the home is safe, inviting, and ready for her without complaint. It always has been, why would it be different now? Because she broke 23 years of anniversaries, Christmases and New Years? Absolutely. It's guilt. Nothing to do with me, but everything to do about her. When you're away for almost a month, I bet it seems like you never have to go home..... until you do. I bet that it's not a great feeling for the MLC'er....... but I'm not going to say a word about it. The home always has been and always will be a safe place. It'll be like she was away for a "normal" visit. But the knowledge will be her's to sort out, not for me to..... and I know that someday, it will bother her.... but not today, and not tomorrow.

She's already saying how tired she is, and how tired she will be: telegraphing to me "I'll be going to bed once I get her home". Crash and not face anything. Well, of course (duh).... changing environments is way beyond what an MLC'er can handle, I know this..... I expected nothing to begin with. (LOL)

I almost forgot what this was like..... almost.

Time to clean  ;)

One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2020, 08:32:17 PM »
Journaling:

I was right... W texted every step of the way. Picked her up at the airport...... was curious if I'd get a kiss (alright... I was hoping for a kiss).... didn't get one. Got a really weird hug instead..... I think she was trying to figure out if she should kiss me or not, and chickened out. Her forehead ended up at my lips, I don't know what was going on. LOL!!!!!!

We had dinner..... which was nice. Caught up.
She told me a story about some creepy old retired guy hitting on her at New Years....... I was thinking to myself "So tell him you're married". Evidently she didn't and he kept trying to get in touch with her for half her trip. At least she told me.... but what is the purpose? To see if I'd be jealous? Get a rise out of me? I was totally calm, just nodded my head and listened. It is just  :o ::) >:(

She commented on my body looking better/stronger..... that was nice.

And she came home and crashed (as expected, no surprise there..... and I want her to rest. Long day. Lots of stimulus for an MLC'er).

Tomorrow is another day.

One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 08:00:46 AM »
Journaling:

After leaving W to relax and shift gears, it was off to the gym. I get so much out of working out.... the changes, stress relief, and goals to aspire to. Just absolutely love it.


After a good (but not incredible) workout, off to home and W was passed out (as expected). It was nice to see her there in the bed. Peaceful. It was so weird to have her absent and not weird to have her back.
Once I had showered, read a little.. I was off to bed.
Her eyes opened, and she watched me there in the dark. I could detect some sadness..... maybe hope? So I told her hi, and she smiled and said hi back. I told her I was happy she was home....... "You are?" (in a little voice), "you're really happy I'm home?"....... yes...... very happy. She scoots very close, inviting me to hold her.... and I do. She whimpers as I put my arms around her, and falls fast asleep..... not moving at all for 2 hours.
It is still incredible to me how weak they are on the inside. How much reassurance they need contently. How they don't feel lovable or deserving of love. How the need for safety is so powerful.... and how hard it is for them to reach out.

This morning she said that was the best sleep she's had in a long time. As she ran to and fro getting ready for work (she was very excited to get back to work) I left her completely alone. She was about to run out the door and approached.... very timidly giving me a kiss. I let her (of course)..... and then grabbed her and gave her three more  :-* She giggled and smiled..... feeling loved and accepted (at least that was my take on it).

Build them up... build them up....

One day at a time,

-SS

Update: Oh right!!! How could I forget? So tomorrow will be a big day for me...... it's Saturday (Church). Will she go? She said she wanted to...... will she remember? Will that desire still be in there? No idea. Expecting nothing.... oh but I hope. Not going to make a deal about it, not going to ask.... just going like normal. I hope she jumps in....... but if she doesn't..... someday.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 08:06:19 AM by Standing Strong »
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online megogirl

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2020, 08:39:38 AM »
Wow, Standing!

How exciting for you.  At this point I would kill for any sort of acknowledgement that I exist, that I created a human with him, etc.

Sometimes I feel like an idiot for Standing, but stories like yours keep me going.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 08:42:12 AM by megogirl »

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2020, 09:21:51 AM »
That is so precious SS!  ♥️ it!!!
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2020, 06:37:47 PM »
Very interesting.......

I came home and talked with W....... rubbed her back (she liked that)....... fed her...... watched a show we like..... and then she mentions "I slept hard last night, I don't think I moved".
To which I mention the events of the previous night...... she couldn't recall any of it. Not talking to me. Not cuddling. No me rubbing her arm. Not..... anything.

How convenient.

That makes me wonder if the memory from those three days of her calling, and in particular her realization that she's been pushing me away is still in there.......
Her memory has been somuch better..... I didn't realize there is still some present-time memory disconnects going on. I have noticed some minor personality shifts, so this is a yellow flag to me. She could be cycling in some harder to observe manner.  :-\

She could only vaguely remember turning on the tv: not what she turned it to (a movie on Netflix), nor getting into bed, not me coming to bed, absolutely nothing.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2020, 06:51:53 PM »
Goodness!  How on earth to they just forget blocks of time!  Especially important ones.  You are really rolling with the punches SS!
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2020, 10:26:12 PM »
She's passed out again..... we watched a couple shows ending with "rub my back". So very spoiled.

I could be wrong, but I think there are two personalities in play at the moment (which are variations of the same person, not drastically different.... which makes it very hard to spot).
The first is what could be called "prisoner", and this is the kind, sweet, loving and affectionate W that I so dearly love. This is the one who called me those three days and told me the wonderful things she did. This is the one who wants to (really) try.

The other one, is the personality that seems to be here almost all the time. While this one is much better than Shark-Eyes, now that I know what I'm looking for...... this "person" is absolutely related. This one tolerates me: I'm not the enemy....... but I'm not really interesting, funny, exciting, or attractive to "her". I'm useful. I don't cause problems...... I'm safe.

I could be wrong...... but I'm really noticing the timid and sad personality who is here so little, and then the somewhat overbearing one who is here all the time (who seems to only really care about herself). I think maybe her time away is what gave me the break needed to be able to separate and recognize them.
Very interesting.
I also notice that they switch as needed.... so if I'm pulling away, or there's some perceived need to appease me.... out pops my W (or maybe it's her building up strength?)..... and the rest of the time.... there's no need to try, and the self-centered W is in full control...... mulling away at whatever is going on up top.
This also strikes me.... as W pops out, I get the feeling she knows what's going on.... and she's there to make sure I don't get away (although I'm not going anywhere)...... but it seems like "Distant W" is not aware of her at all.

Hmmmmm..... interesting. I will be watching to see of my observations holds water..... but I think it does.
I had thought she was down to a single personality but with a lot of confusion and sporadic emotions..... maybe that is the case, but I'm starting to think otherwise.
If the "distant W" personality is real, then I could totally see this as a protection mechanism. Protecting against what I'm not sure, but it fits. The other personality.... oh yes, that's W.... I recognize her..... but she is weak, oh so weak.

I wonder if Shocks would chime in and tell me if this strikes a chord with her.
There is something to learn here.... I'm just not quite sure what it is...... but my instincts say yes.

One Day at a time.... one night at a time (LOL),

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2020, 06:05:14 AM »
SS: I wanted to share that one of the interesting things I saw in my wife was that she not only could switch between different emotional states (what I would call the old connected wife I know and the new detached/disassociated teenager state), but that sometimes I could even see that she existed simultaneous in both states. The interesting thing to note is that usually people can move between emotional states, disassociate and find their way back. But it is less common to see facets of both states at the same time. I do not mean even switching between them within a few minutes (which I also saw) but fragments of both at the same time.

That is why I use the term “fractured” when I tend to refer to the psyche of someone in MLC. I can not imagine what its like to exist in such a state.

Hang in there, but as always try not to focus too much in minute to minute analysis. That is mainly for you to be able to stay the course long term and not get burned out by the cycling and rapid shifts.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2020, 07:22:13 AM »
That is a really good way of looking at it Marvin... thank you.

Hmmmm, I will be on the lookout to see if it isn't two personalities switching and if they are intermingled instead..... that is a possibility.

Fractured... yes, a very good and accurate way of putting it.  :D

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2020, 07:38:12 AM »
MBIB has added a lot to my understanding of disassociated 'personas' and the link to trauma. Looking back - bc I couldn't see it at the time bc I was too emotional and shocked - I saw my former h behave like a frightened child of about 5, an angry teenager of about 15 came out more over time, as well as a fake formal 'business' kind of mask full of fake logic and weird pompous language. I never saw them co-exist. I did see him gradually morph from one to another. And I saw something which was kind of blank...like a 'does not compute' version...that seemed as if it was waiting to know what to be, which usually morphed into the angry teenager.

I know enough about my xh's early life history to know why 5 and 15 might be relevant in him. Perhaps the same is true for your w, Standing? But as Marvin says, observing without watching will save your energy.
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2020, 03:39:57 AM »
Hey Hey...... tonight was an R talk!!!! It's been a while since I had one of these.

W did not go to church tonight.... no surprise, but it was still a nice day. I was driving home from the gym right before mid-day, and I get a call from W asking if I wanted to attend a basketball game for my niece... well of course I do. So we run down there.... watch the game (we lost so bad..... LOL). She sorta talked to me, and then pushed away. I got her food which she scarfed down. Towards the end of the game she talked about "A migraine coming on". Uh huh. I've heard this before when it started to get close to church time and she'd say she'd go. I didn't mention anything about it, I'm not going to guilt anyone into going to church.... you either go because you want to, or not. The end.

We got home, I made us dinner and then I went to church alone. It was a good service.
I got home and got ready for bed. Climbed in and she put in a movie to watch (The Craft..... a movie from our teens that we both liked.... this was after finding the Disney movie she wanted has been removed from Netflix.... LOL). So we watch that, and I'm about to turn in....... "You've been quiet all day"...... ah ha, oh really (I hadn't)...... I'm not surprised. So we talk for the next three hours. Her not knowing what to say and needing me to talk and talk to get the ball rolling (safety and ice-breaker). She literally can't start the conversation, nor add anything for a long time.
I tell stories about family, and then she wants me to talk about what I believe (in life and generally).

Eventually we get on the subject of life..... and I'm very gentle and not judgmental. She once again talks about the Shark-Eyes period in that it was just an emotion-heavy time..... and that I freaked out and couldn't handle her emotions. Oh really? This was my opportunity to do some poking and stirring. So I explored the topic of memory loss. We skimmed the surface and then went deep. Initially she didn't believe she had any memory loss... and I gave some examples...... she couldn't explain it, but did go into great detail about what happens to her when she has deep emotion: She can't remember what she does or says. What?!!?!?! She says "ask my mom, when I was a kid I'd fly into a black rage, be terrible, say terrible things and mentally black out...... when I came too.... no memory of what I said or did". Um.... what?!?!? No one had ever told me this. I've never seen this in 23 years (until MLC) She says "You are seeing this part of me that I had tucked away and never shown you. You put me on such a pedestal, and I wanted you too..... it's not your fault. You thought I was a certain way, and I knew that's what you wanted me to be.... so I was". Um..... what? If this is true (maybe), this is some kind of..... what is that? That's a serious mental issue. What a nasty problem to be revealed by MLC. I only knew of her trauma..... not that there was a totally different problem from before her teens.

Then we talk about the different personalities after BD because she claims I freaked out at the 1st sign of "emotion"...... I don't call it BD or mention that she broke, or MLC (she makes it sound so normal... "I showed some emotion [anger] and you freaked out..... told IC that I was depressed")....... so to get the party started, I point to memory loss examples. I thought this would surprise her, but no.... it didn't: "That makes complete sense to me. I've compartmentalized my feelings and the personalities that go along with the emotions. All my boxes opened at the same time and you got to see them for the 1st time (she says this so matter-of-factly)". She says when she's mad (and that I had only seen her irritated before, never mad) she intentionally hurts people (and blacks out - no memory). It made sense to her that the "boxes" don't interact with one another, are not aware of one another, and share no memories..... therefore it is not actual memory loss.... just a lack of connection between boxes, and there's nothing wrong with that.  :o She had no empathy for causing any hurt, no compassion for anything she may have said: The only wrong was being hurt by her "emotions", which evidently exist without any consequences whatsoever. As this temper-tantrum behavior was last dealt with when she was very young (5-8ish), I now understand better some of these "Faces" I've observed in the past. This one is completely immature, and only knows it's own needs. It is a child. So what trauma caused her to get stuck at this point in life????? I only know about her early teens. This is new and very troubling.

She then draws me a visual aid..... it is a representation of her emotions and how they have "always" been: It's a giant scribble. "That is my emotions...... I don't understand them". Ah ha! Now I have something. It is the way her emotions are now, but she can't remember anything else, so it must be the same way "always".... but I get to see what they are now: A giant mess. I'm keeping that paper for myself.

She talks about expectations and trying to make everyone happy, a minor pity party comes out with tears (very lite compared to the past ones), alludes to not knowing what she wants from life (including me),questions all her life choices, worries about getting old, how broken she is, how she is broken as a W...... eventually she tires, and we go to sleep.

Proof that even with progress, they not only need to have the pot stirred......they want it stirred. She begin it. She pursued it. She kept going...... and I had to ride it out until she stopped. When it was over, she was asleep within 3 min. Emotionally spent.

I didn't try to win a conversation, or prove any point. It was all exploratory for her benefit and mine. No judgement..... and I was able to release some hurt that I had. The resulting explanations were fascinating. There is absolutely a "distant W" personality, and it was aware of the "prisoner" phone call while she was away at her mom's. She couldn't explain the emotions that came during that call beyond her scribble of emotion AND that compartmentalization box being open at that time. It would appear this "distant W" personality is "her" with all the compartmentalization boxes closed (ah ha...... now THAT makes sense: This stand-offish, void personality.... which also seems to open boxes randomly or at will). She warned me that the angry box is still in there, and I said "yes, I know it is". She explained she is trying to learn how to not have any boxes, that is the goal.... and she doesn't know how to do this.

What a night.

One day at a time,

-SS 
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2020, 09:39:55 AM »
Well, she seems very self aware.  As far is understanding she compartmentalizes.  She also seems to be going much deeper into the tunnel.  You are really good at navigating this!  I would have had some strong words.

She is still turning to you, so it seems like a win.  Though, it is interesting that she may have some sort of other ongoing issues.  She may in fact be able to work through those during her MLC.
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2020, 10:48:25 PM »
Journaling:

Arragh!!! I missed the gym today!!! Curses!!!!  ;)
Diet was not great either  >:(

But in other news....... I went and had lunch with a friend (bad diet meal)..... gave me a sick stomach to eat "real food".  :P That'll teach me.

W wanted to do something together (nice) and we ended up going to Target and shopping. It was really nice. We talked.... it felt.... normal. Afterwards, instead of going home, she drove to Grandma's house to see her and my mom. That was really nice. Also pretty normal. I really like seeing her trying to reintegrate. She laughed, talked, had empathy. She put on Christian music the whole way back  8)

I made dinner (she liked it)..... then we watched some funny shows together and had a great time..... and I rubbed her legs and feet for a long time (she really liked that). No expectations, no innuendo, no nothing..... but I can hope.... HAHAHAHHAHAAH!!!! Finally I got tired and tried to go to sleep..... W turns off the tv..... and I'm wondering if she'll get close, or just something. After a few min, I hear her phone buzz..... and the texting is on.  >:( Really? Are we back to that? Only now with me in the sack with her? You know positive is normally followed by negative and vise-versa. So I lay there for half an hour and got up (I moved and fidgeted just to make sure she knew I was awake). Better to do something I like than sit there and monkey-brain. I realize that I have insecurities to work on, and how easy it is to forget that when something good happens, it doesn't go on forever.... no matter how much we want it to.
 
We can only control ourselves and our reactions.

Looking forward to dieting and working out tomorrow: washboard abs you will be mine.

One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2020, 07:56:10 AM »
SS, I’m so sorry the Roller Coaster is so extreme.  I do think sometimes we assume the worst because our trust has been broken.  On the other hand when MLC is involved those assumptions do tend to be on point. 

I noticed a couple of misspelled words on my posts above.  I typically post on my phone while waiting on kids in the car.  Is should be as.  Further down to should be do.

Anyways, I hope you have a wonderful day!
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2020, 08:19:39 AM »
Thank you FJ  :)

I hope you have a wonderful day too.

Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.
Anyway, just an interesting tidbit.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 08:59:02 AM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.
Anyway, just an interesting tidbit.

I'm no longer surprised how much we progress / process the same stuff.... I had similar talk with my IC earlier this week, except I was able to educate her (she knew there was a risk, but did not know the numbers)... There is actually a somewhat recent study according to which 50% of spouses/partners of depressed person develop some mental issues of their own within one year , and 80% experience mental health issues withing 2-year landmark.  The most common issue was anxiety (ding-ding-ding), followed by depression...  Of course there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but I have no reason to doubt the numbers.

Alvin.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 11:06:43 AM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.

This is great insight. And really a tiny portion of why the advice to detach, to not try to help, guide, advice, etc is generally given. It is not from negativity, rather even in something as simple as "depression" a therapist is the one to help, someone trained, experienced and qualified who also has his/her own extensive support network to maintain their own footing (including their own therapist).

Imagine now with MLC which is multivariate and complex how someone trying to help, specially when the person is someone incredibly close to them and deeply emotionally involved.

Brief version: going down with the drowning person does no good to the drowning person, and is not all that great for the person helping either.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 03:20:05 PM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.
Anyway, just an interesting tidbit.

I'm no longer surprised how much we progress / process the same stuff.... I had similar talk with my IC earlier this week, except I was able to educate her (she knew there was a risk, but did not know the numbers)... There is actually a somewhat recent study according to which 50% of spouses/partners of depressed person develop some mental issues of their own within one year , and 80% experience mental health issues withing 2-year landmark.  The most common issue was anxiety (ding-ding-ding), followed by depression...  Of course there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but I have no reason to doubt the numbers.

Alvin.

I totally believe those numbers are correct or close to it. Without knowing/understanding what is happening...... most are going to stand with their spouse right over the cliff.  ;D

When you love someone so much..... how can you not be affected? When someone is in pain, you have sympathy pain with them...... can totally see how that would carry over to mental/emotional illness as well.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 03:27:08 PM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.

This is great insight. And really a tiny portion of why the advice to detach, to not try to help, guide, advice, etc is generally given. It is not from negativity, rather even in something as simple as "depression" a therapist is the one to help, someone trained, experienced and qualified who also has his/her own extensive support network to maintain their own footing (including their own therapist).

Imagine now with MLC which is multivariate and complex how someone trying to help, specially when the person is someone incredibly close to them and deeply emotionally involved.

Brief version: going down with the drowning person does no good to the drowning person, and is not all that great for the person helping either.

Yup, I think generally that is correct: Jumping in to drown is a bad idea....... and that's what most people who don't know try in the beginning: The begging, pleading, pushing the MLC'er away without knowing it, becoming totally attached to the roller coaster....... Drowning.

I still think you can be detached (to a certain extent) and be able to throw them lifelines, encouragement, be an example, give love, and in general: Shine.
That does skirt a fine line, and it could be easy to fall over to the other side and be on the roller coaster again. The other extreme is to scrap them off and completely detach. That makes me question what issues come with that approach however. Entering an emotional deprivation tank of our own creation doesn't come without side effects and scars of its own.
Positive detachment, negative detachment.

-SS

W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 03:31:45 PM »
I don’t see it as a choice between detachment and caring/love. For me its understanding that no external love/encouragement/advice can and will help them in this kind of crises. In fact considering its a crises of self anything external is actually not helpful. Note how they are trying everything external they can find to ease the pain, or to find “love” or meaning, or happiness. It is the core of the disorder: externality of internal issues.

So no matter how much we love them and care for them our helping is a little like poison. They will either rebel and reject and be angry, or they will lean temporarily and that is a little like giving an addict more drug. It makes them feel better in the short term but at what cost?

It’s a really hard thing to wrap ones head around and to accept, specially when we are loving, caring people and these are the people we love the most in such pain.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2020, 04:40:05 PM »
Perhaps there are "shades" within MLC which allow or don't allow for that.

We know that all of them have internal issues they are working on. We know that all of them look for something to fill a void of some sort. We know there is a time element which we can't gauge, as whatever unknown process unfolds in their head. We know that within some sort of environment, weather it be a sitch recreation from the past, a fantasy, a feeling of safety, or something else produces the correct temperature for them to "bake". We know that without this environment they don't bake. So what is the environment? We know they absolutely want to bake: they go looking for an oven. They are compelled to do so.

I think the base question (at least that I have) is: Can some of those needs be met in the present while their mind is not in the present? To free them to process?
One good thing about MLC'ers is they have no problem letting you know what they don't want..... instantly. Figuring out what they do want is far more difficult as they don't know and it consistently changes as they discover nothing fills the void (an unseen list they furiously are checking off). There are some exceptions however that are constant universally: Safety, love, support. This is the environment for cooking (IMO).

Left completely to themselves, their processing/recreation is synthetic (like a vitamin is synthetic)..... can you produce real vitamin C (love.... fresh squeezed), which tastes better and makes them feel better? I think the answer is yes.

People take the path of least resistance, MLC or not..... and people like valuable/pretty things, MLC or not. Eventually if you put good things in one of their hands (honey) and keep good things stocked in that hand..... someday they look down at the other hand and realize they are holding a stinky turd. Then the honey looks real good.... and that's not nicing them back. It's just love.... and all humans need love, some more than others.
If we remove choice, and leave only the synthetic..... then we can't blame them for using a synthetic.
Sacrificial? Yes. Difficult? Yes. Needs patience? Absolutely.

They are hungry: Feed them.
They want to talk: Listen to them.
They are hurting: Hug them.
They feel unsafe: Guard them.
They are in chaos: Give them peace.
They need a walk: Let them go.
They knock on the door: Smile and let them in.
Love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

-SS 
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2020, 06:36:55 PM »
Definitely shades of MLC.  When they cheat, abandon, monster, push you away, lie, divorce, are irresponsible with money, purposely hurt you, hurt their kids etc.  Sometimes it is very necessary to detach in a neutral way. 

I do think in your situation you have done everything and anything you could to help her bake and it seems to be helping.  She has very little stress.   

Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2020, 02:05:00 AM »
I think shades of MLC is a fair point.
I do understand your effort, Standing, to recognise that your w is struggling with her own issues and to do your best to adapt and try to create a safe place with you for her to do so. You said on one of your very first posts that this was your goal. I hope it is successful eventually for you both and I don't think it is a bad thing to see people sharing different approaches on HS.

But I don't believe that most MLCers are compelled to find a way to 'bake' even if it seems your wife is. Most are compelled to run from an 'oven' until for some the oven eventually finds them perhaps. By contrast I think many LBS are here hunting for their own oven and work incredibly hard to bake themselves. If MLCers put in half the effort that LBSers do, our situations would be very different imho.

My slight reservation about your perspective sometimes - phrases like removing the choice so we can't blame them for choosing the synthetic - is that it perhaps lacks a level of humility about the difference between the challenges in your situation and those that others face. Most LBS certainly initially are full of guilt and desperation to NOT remove themselves as the good choice over the synthetic; most don't get a choice about that. I worry a little that some LBS will read your words without recognising the practical differences between their situation and yours and will feel a sense of failure.  I don't think you have a wife who is coming back to your house flaunting that she has just left someone else's bed. Or that she has cleaned out your savings. Or filed for divorce with the intent of taking your home, business or children. Or accused you of DV and called the police out on you. Or that you are dealing with distressed children in therapy. These are all pretty common things for a lot of LBS. I am very glad that this is not the case for you, but it perhaps makes your w's behaviour less of a norm here.

For many of us the challenge is more about how to lovingly adapt to a spouse that runs like their hair is on fire while blanket-bombing us and their kids. Working out how to feed/hug/guard etc as you say is a rather different kind of challenge than the one you currently have on your plate. Not easier or more difficult necessarily, but different. I think living with the gaslighting and uncertainty while seeing their pain must be very difficult actually; in a funny way I am grateful that I didn't have to navigate that for too long in my situation but I remember it being excruciatingly painful like watching my h drown in front of me.

There may be some others here whose spouse is similar - either bc they are an MLC wallower or bc perhaps they are not in a full-blown MLC kind of crisis yet - and i can see that your experience might be useful for others trying to navigate something similar. But please tread gently on assuming or asserting that some kind of sacrificial love and safeguarding approach is the LBS gold standard benchmark. After all LBS need safety, love and support too right?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:38:41 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2020, 05:30:46 AM »
One of the things I wanted to add....bc I think you are a person of faith, and ideas about unconditional love can be a bit tricksy for those of us who believe that the heart of our faith is about the importance of God's unconditional love.

William Paul Young (the author of the Shack) frames it in a way which I found very helpful. That God's love for us is unconditional. But part of that love includes believing that our choices matter and respecting our decisions. And that this means that our choices affect the kind of relationship we have with him but they will never remove his relentless affection for us or his desire for us to be healthy and whole. His premise is that the same can be true in human relationships. That our love can be unconditional but our relationships are not. That other humans make choices that affect the kind of relationship we might have with them and that part of unconditional love is respecting their capacity to do great damage as much as we respect their capacity for creating good things. So, his take on it is that unconditional love - God's and our own feeble human versions lol - are both based on respect for others choices while not denying that those choices may profoundly change how the relationship works. (I'm not as wise as Paul Young, so he says it better about 50 mins into this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMkd1iVg9c  :) )

I found it quite comforting to know that in terms of my faith beliefs it was ok to love my h unconditionally and also to accept and respect that he made choices that made sense to him that changed the nature of our relationship. To not fight the inevitable consequences of his choices maybe but to perhaps be open-minded to the possibility that God might use the consequences of my h's choices for both me and my xh in a much more imaginative way than I could lol.

All to say, I suppose, that love and relationship are not always exactly the same thing maybe.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:34:25 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2020, 08:23:38 AM »
I think shades of MLC is a fair point.
...
My slight reservation about your perspective sometimes - phrases like removing the choice so we can't blame them for choosing the synthetic - is that it perhaps lacks a level of humility about the difference between the challenges in your situation and those that others face. Most LBS certainly initially are full of guilt and desperation to NOT remove themselves as the good choice over the synthetic; most don't get a choice about that. I worry a little that some LBS will read your words without recognising the practical differences between their situation and yours and will feel a sense of failure.  I don't think you have a wife who is coming back to your house flaunting that she has just left someone else's bed. Or that she has cleaned out your savings. Or filed for divorce with the intent of taking your home, business or children. Or accused you of DV and called the police out on you. Or that you are dealing with distressed children in therapy. These are all pretty common things for a lot of LBS. I am very glad that this is not the case for you, but it perhaps makes your w's behaviour less of a norm here.

You touch a number of interesting topics here, Treasur.

I think none of us should ever enter the territory "my crisis is worse" or "your crisis does not compare/qualify"  type of comparison.  Not even when trying to protect others from possible hurt...   Everyone's crisis is unique and different.  What combines everyone here is that we all have got a spouse who is going through 'some mental health issue' that affects us and our marriage/relationship with them, and it is happening at midlife.  We are all in the same boat ,we should support and cheer for each others progress, and maybe learn from others when we can.     

The reason I decided to reply was  "common things for a lot of LBS" part...   I don't know if anyone has ever done any kind of "analysis" of the LBS and their partners here, but I've been building up a small research/study about active members of class of 2019 (and more particularly those of us who have become regular posters):

 * there's a somewhat even split of femailes and males, as to be expected

*  80% of couples do have kids, but it still means 1 in 5 does not have to worry the effect this will have on family

- 55% are still married and have not filed for divorce, about third are in progress with divorce or legal separation, and rest are split and divorced.
 
- 40% are still dealing with a live-in,   there are zero vanishers,  and 60% is the stereotypical MLCr with OW/OM and their own place.

So I think apart of kids Standing is somewhat "average LBS  within class of 2019....    I think this is a classic example of "we all see what we want to see"... .Treasur's view of what LBS go through is very different from Standing's view or my view, simply because we all have got very different backgrounds and experiences.   Maybe LBS of the past were more extreme, maybe 2019 is a "good year" with milder MLCs,  maybe there is some fallacy (remember how long mankind believed earth was flat or that sun rotated earth,  simply because there was no research to prove otherwise), maybe situations get worse over time.   

Where to draw the line on what is "common"?  5%, 10%, 20%, 50%....?  How long is a piece of shoestring.  Once again we all see what we want to see. This is definitely an area where all of us must do mirror work of our own.  The more we know of the irrational beliefs we have, the more realistic perspective of this whole thing we can get.

Just my 5 cents worth,

Alvin.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:47:04 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2020, 08:55:27 AM »
I was thinking about my own situation.  When my MLCer got back from deployment and left me to deal with more than I could.  Had we not had young children, had I not had so much on my plate.  Had I myself been in a better place emotionally after a deployment in which my husband stopped contacting me and became distant and cold.  The questions in my mind about infidelity.

The best I could do was take on all of the extra responsibility and try my best to make it through.  I guess what I’m saying is.  We all have different situations, what we can handle. 

In my case bd happened shortly after moving to a new state, no support, young kids, no job.  Fear set in.  How will I feed my kids?  Where will we live?  Is he going to kill me in my sleep?  Do I want the kids exposed to his crazy behavior?  Will he lose his job? 

So from my perspective we all have some similarities, but also extreme differences.  Am I less of a Wife if the man who is cheating on me, abandoned me, been vile to me and neglected our children for years is not what I chose?  He has walked away from his faith and does not want me.  Is that not his choice?

Don’t get me wrong, I have tried my best to find sacrificial love and am doing my best to wait out his crises, but ultimately if he were home, if he were not cheating, if I had not been afraid for my physical safety, if he had not said horrible things to me that broke me, if he had not abandoned his kids, if he were not planning a divorce that will cause us hardship, I know I would have a different perspective.  I know because that was my first two years before bd.  I would have waited years.

I also think it is extremely difficult to have a wallower live in type situation.  I wouldn’t want that either.  There are definitely shades of betrayal, red lines, things they do that sometimes results in the LBS needing to respect themselves enough to keep their distance, protect themselves.

I know personally I had to completely detach for a period or I was going to have a mental crises of my own.  My kids needed me.  I had to let him go for their sake.  Once I was healthier, once I was through the worst of my own turmoil I was able to have more grace and compassion for him. 


« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:59:16 AM by Finding Joy »
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2020, 09:04:57 AM »
I was also thinking a Wallower situation is more “death by a thousand cuts”.  Where as the ones who abandon, monster etc tend to leave a deep wound early on.  Different situations, but both incredibly difficult to navigate.
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2020, 10:28:05 AM »
That's very interesting, Alvin, what your overview of the 'class of 2019' looks like. My 'most LBS' tbh was based on a broad sense of all the posts I have read since joining HS, including those whose posts are from years ago and now archived. I wonder what the same analysis might look like over a longer period or bigger group...if you have time on your hands lol.

I suppose were I being picky, I would say that Standing's situation is still on the minority side of those criteria based on your own figures of 2019.

But that was not the point I was trying to make and obviously made very poorly.
As FJ says better, we each handle what we can but what we handle may be different.
I think I just feel uncomfortable with an exhortation to self-sacrifice more or to love harder for many LBS who tend to start there anyway while being blamed or abused or threatened by an MLC spouse.


T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Couragedearheart

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2020, 05:54:32 PM »
FJ,

Death by a thousand cuts is precisely how it feels.

The MLCer treats you like a chair, or a piece of furniture, you have function but no meaning or significance.

Why would we ever treat others that way when we all know how much that hurts. No ones journey or experience is right or wrong, or any more or less valid based on how they approached an impossible situation.

The end of my story, of your story, of everyone on this boards story is not yet written.

Did those of us interacting trade small short term gains for long term “wins”?  Who knows?

I would like to see as much compassion for each other as we are trying to extend to MLCers.

Anywho....just my 2cents.
Me 36
H 36
S15
Wallower?
EA discovered 5/31/2019
BD May 31 2019
EA ongoing? 🤷‍♀️ (Who knows?)
“God allows us to feel the frailty of human love so we’ll appreciate the strength of his.” C.S. Lewis

Offline Couragedearheart

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2020, 06:47:17 PM »
SS,

I asked god why he gave H parts....

He said because he must learn to communicate.

Me 36
H 36
S15
Wallower?
EA discovered 5/31/2019
BD May 31 2019
EA ongoing? 🤷‍♀️ (Who knows?)
“God allows us to feel the frailty of human love so we’ll appreciate the strength of his.” C.S. Lewis

Offline trusting

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2020, 08:20:18 PM »
Quote
Death by a thousand cuts is precisely how it feels.

The MLCer treats you like a chair, or a piece of furniture, you have function but no meaning or significance.

Yes.  It is brutal.  Mine was a live in for years.  Not one speck of fun in that.

I do know that all of those things I tried to pull my H closer while he was in MLC did the opposite.  He did not want anything relationship-y from me.  At all.  At ALL.  All I got for my efforts were monster, gaslighting, cruelty.  I stopped, backed waaaaay off.  They did not change or shorten his crisis in any way.  I did continue to treat him with kindness and be welcoming when he was around.  Now that he is pretty well un-crisised, I can't say whether that made a difference or not as I haven't heard anything in that regards from the horse's mouth, but I do know I seem to be his go-to person now for venting about frustrations, advice, someone to lean on.  We are reconnecting and rebuilding a relationship.  Again, no idea if it has anything to do with how I treated him during his crisis, whether he would be reconnecting with us anyway.  I do know I had to try to love him unconditionally to be true to the kind of person I want to be.

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2020, 07:52:22 AM »
That's very interesting, Alvin, what your overview of the 'class of 2019' looks like. My 'most LBS' tbh was based on a broad sense of all the posts I have read since joining HS, including those whose posts are from years ago and now archived. I wonder what the same analysis might look like over a longer period or bigger group...if you have time on your hands lol.

Time is the gift we all are given, LOL.

I already do have a "limited" overview that covers top 350 posters  here (which equals roughly 90% what's been posted on these forums)

* 83% of top LBS here are women
Maybe 2019 is exceptional year with roughly 50/50 split between genders.  Or maybe it is long-term effect that men drop more easily (relationship books suggest that men move onwards more easily over time)...  Maybe when I look of the numbers of class of 2019 in few years time, they will align better with "general" picture.

* Average / median age with top LBS is 49 (and with top100 it's few years higher)
Again, me and standing are bit younger than average.   Maybe it too affects how we approach this...
But above all,  generation affects a whole lot with how people think.  Me, Standing and most the class of 2019 were born in 1970s (usually on the latter half).  Many of the veterans were born in 1960s. It may not sound much of a difference, but it does a world of difference we think, behave etc.  We all are by-products of our era.

* Most common MLC-LBS situation involves 2 offsprings  (and 1/10 does not have children at all like you or Standing, and only 1% has 5 children or  more like me.  Often times kids of LBSr are either (young) adults or teenagers, or mix of these two.

* 71% are/were dealing with physical affair, 6% have got emotional affair (I'm on that boat),  and the rest don't  simply know, suspect an affair, or trust there is none.

So yes, if looking from "big picture" perspective of top posters,  both me and Standing are not the most common kind, but we are not unique neither, and above all, we are somewhat average for the class of 2019 (and I have got a gut feeling more of people like us two will come in 2020 and beyond).

As for more detailed statistics...   They will come over time (consider it as my way of giving back to this community; I'm a fairly well-skilled data-analyst so I have got access to tools and methods to do this kinds of stuff). 

Alvin. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:56:26 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Offline TDurden

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2020, 08:07:26 AM »
If I may, I think the upswing in male participation comes from a change in perception. 

It was easy to write it off as "eh, she went crazy" and move on with life as an angrier person.  As mental wellness becomes more mainstream, men are now "allowed" to look deeper than the symptoms on the surface and understand what is actually happening, and act accordingly.  Very few of my friends or family understand why I would even consider standing.  While they won't outright say it, it is implied that I should "man up" leave her in the past.  They can't grasp the strength it takes to stand.

Offline Thunder

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2020, 08:28:15 AM »
Alvin,

You may find this interesting.  It's archived now but it was a survey taken a few years ago.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7415.0
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2020, 09:21:41 AM »
If I may, I think the upswing in male participation comes from a change in perception. 

It was easy to write it off as "eh, she went crazy" and move on with life as an angrier person.  As mental wellness becomes more mainstream, men are now "allowed" to look deeper than the symptoms on the surface and understand what is actually happening, and act accordingly.  Very few of my friends or family understand why I would even consider standing.  While they won't outright say it, it is implied that I should "man up" leave her in the past.  They can't grasp the strength it takes to stand.

Yep, it's a generation thingie...  For example my parents as well as lot of my family did not understood why W and I were not married under eyes of god, or the fact that none of kids were babtized.  Roll onwards 20 years and it has become "totally unacceptable".   Times they are a changing, but it always takes random brave souls to make the path for others to follow.


Alvin,

You may find this interesting.  It's archived now but it was a survey taken a few years ago.

https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=7415.0

Thanks for sharing Thunder...   For my statistical sample (of 350) the overall MLCr medium/average age is/was 47.  About one year difference between sexes (females entering bit earlier on average).  So more or less the same direction with the survey.

Alvin.

PS. And my apologies for StandingStrong from hi-jacking your story... I'll make a separate topic of my analysis WHEN I have enough data. I can already say it will be a very long process before I have got anything genuinely "worthy" stuff to share.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 09:24:15 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2020, 05:51:37 PM »
Alvin, I really feel like you are missing the point of what Treasur and I were saying.

Good job on the statistics.  Interesting.  Of course yours and Standings observations and stories are helpful and important.  We are just not all in a position to react/act in the same way you were/are because we all have different situations.  That’s what I was trying to say.

Also, doing a statistic on the class of 2019 would really need a few years to have any value as some leave immediately, some wait, some never leave.  Some stay home a few years and then divorce, some spend immediately, some never do, some start two years in.  Some start with EA and take time to move to PA, some jump right in.  So really the class of 2019 is just getting started.

You’re just babes unlike the class of 2018😉
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 06:01:08 PM by Finding Joy »
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2020, 05:23:22 AM »
Oh nice!!! So much to respond to...... been such a busy week at work haven't had a chance.

But before I do..... Journaling:

I've reached a new level of non-smothering (which is really good for me): Everything is kept light, no pressure on W, and I'm being more accepting (internally) that this has nothing to do with me.
Something has let me know that for right now, my role is very much a purely support role. It's not time to stir the pot.
That's a little hard to explain...... but it's intuition..... I just know.

W is cycling forward and back..... wobbling, but pretty stable. I can see she is working on something (what I have no idea) but she needs to be left alone at this moment and reach out on her own.
I hope she succeeds in this minor sub-stage or whatever it is....... it's very superficial right now, she's almost normal (which is nice to see) but has little "depth".
I've seen her take care of the birds, have some empathy (not a ton but more than before), display some more knowledge of right and wrong, and communicate more about her activities and whereabouts. I'm not prodding at all right now, no questions.
The rules were going to change after getting home from vacation, and they did. It took a week to figure it out, but this is what it is. Not a bad place. I do want more, but more is not to be had for now.


I had an experience the other day which God used to let me know he's there..... of that I had no doubt, but it was nice to be reminded "I'm here".  8) It was small, but all things that come from him are HUGE. Something I'll remember for the rest of my life.


Com'on sweety..... bake. You can do it. I believe in you.

One day at a time,

-SS

W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2020, 07:01:12 AM »
It's been so busy, only time to journal for the moment:

Friday 1/17/20
W is in her "at arms length" mode...... it's not that bad. Communication: Good, but she can't seem to initiate conversation.... just join in (with gusto). That's good. I think it's moved from a safety issue to a socialization issue where she is..... timid? Unsure? It's something, but she does have a lot to say and contribute once she does start talking. Everything centers around life and living, that is her interest now.... and I will participate (and be interesting, strong and living/loving life all the while). Not a bad conversation to have. She feeling it out, figuring it out...... and in all honesty, that makes me think about it as well (a good thing).

I was talking to my IC yesterday about her childhood memory loss (which was brought to my attention this last week for the 1st time). I asked him what his opinion was, and he had the same thought I did: Major childhood trauma. My poor W. If that's the case, no wonder she has never functioned properly. I feel so bad for her, I wish I could just hold her and make it all go away...... but it's her fight, and she has to figure it out. I'm just a support role and a cheerleader for her. Ra-Ra!!! You can do it!!!  :-*
My IC said to stay out of that area, no poking..... on that one, I'm in total agreement. No poking, no stirring, I'm not ever going to bring it up either.
That is so far above my pay-grade.... can do so much damage when dealing with early childhood issues (the realization that problem is there really put me on alert, it was a sideswipe after 23 years)....... but it actually gives me some comfort and empathy: All those years I knew about one event.... and I tried so hard to help with that. This MLC has shown me that there was so much I didn't know, that she simply wouldn't tell me.... and so all those efforts, all that frustration, all that time spent..... I did good. I did my absolute best, but I just didn't know there was more. I asked, and I asked, and she assured me I knew..... but I didn't. If I had known, I'd have gotten her help a long, long time ago..... I'd have done anything for her..... but I just didn't know. I wish I had been good enough to know...... but I totally trusted her to tell me when I asked..... so I know I did my best, and my confusion and pain of not being successful on that one event wasn't that I was doing it wrong, it was all compounded by other unknown things... and that's not my fault. I tried to utter exhaustion, again and again and again.

 


Saturday 1/18/20
We watched some TV last night, and then I went away to give her some true relaxation time. After a while, I started texting her from the other room: see what communication is like without the pressure of face to face...... and invited her to play a game together  :D  This is an area I was a bad H in the past..... she loves board games, and I just wasn't enthusiastic about it. I was wrong....... she accepts, and I go pull out five boxes for her to choose from. We played for a couple hours...... all light...... laughing, having fun....... she won  :D (which also was good). All light and fun, a great evening. Afterward I offered some of my weightlifting sleep aid, and she tried it. For the 1st time in I don't know how long, she slept 8 hours without interruption. Not even to get up and use the bathroom. She had been complaining about sleep this last week, and it was really good to see her finally get a full dose of it. I think that does anyone a lot of good. I'm going to use it too...... my sleep has gotten worse since she came back from her vacation.

Still going down the path of not stirring the pot for the time being...... just kindness, support, keeping it light and fun.
W has been more communicative as she is processing whatever she is processing..... which is interesting since that means more communication but less depth to communication. Texting is so normal and wonderful now between us. A good step.
I could be wrong, but I believe she's stuck on something at the moment...... where there was visible movement (always movement) before, she seems to be in one place right now.
This is fine, I don't need to push her. My intuition says leave her be for the moment. I am not needed right now (and I have no ego to stroke).

We spent three hours together tonight, watching her favorite TV show and I massaged her back and head. I did do one thing to test the waters..... LOL!!!! After three hours I asked her if she'd like to snuggle..... that should be relatively safe, and not asking much..... and she used to LOVE to snuggle. Well, I asked...... and I watched her face..... her lip trembled and she stuttered..... "I....I... um..... I need to use the bathroom". So she went off and did (escape) and I didn't mention it again when she returned. Poor thing. It's just so hard for her.
After she passed out, I went shopping for books: Time to expand my knowledge and bone up on spouses with sexual abuse in their past. I used to know a lot about this subject but I think I've gotten rusty in my knowledge in this area. I need to understand what it's like in her shoes better as she processes this big backlog..... Understand better what I can do (or better yet, what I can't do). So, big stack of books on the way to me (I love used books on Amazon). It was funny though..... looking thru the previews there was a topic that showed up over and over in the contents of these books: "What about me?". LOL!!! There was a counseling CD I had listened to a while back and it talked about Husbands with wives who have severe sexual trauma in their past and what it takes to support a woman who is wrestling with this affliction: their advise was "buckle up, it's a very long road". At the time, I was like "Ha!!! Tell me something I don't know!!!". I think all this MLC processing means I've been sent back to Go and didn't collect $200...... and that's ok. I love her. I'm so optimistic that this time, finally..... my beautiful bride will face her demons, and prevail.


One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2020, 07:34:49 AM »
MBIB has posted a lot of useful stuff about childhood trauma on many of his threads, both his own experience and reflections on his wife. One of the important things to remember is that disassociation is common, that your w may not have told you things bc she does not know or remember....or the traumatised child parts of her that do have been locked away for a long time....until the lid comes off. So it was no failure on your part to not be able to know or hers to be able to tell. Sounds like both your intuition and your IC are serving you well though, Standing.

MBIB once posted a link to this http://reversingchronicpain.com/EmpoweringSelfEgoStateTherapy/EST_ebook.pdf
Pretty complex stuff but full of insight. And he mentioned work by Dan Seigel as worth a look if one is trying to understand more about C-PTSD and how the Traumatised Child part can take over from the Adapted Normal part that we used to know, some of the behaviour perhaps that you see. For me, while there was nothing I could do to help my much loved h bc he chose a different path than your w, it helped me to understand just how hard a road it must be to recover from and it helped me feel deep compassion for something which was so far from my own life experience.

Imho not all spouses here are suffering from CPTSD as cause/part of their crisis, but some are. You will know better than me if you think this is part of your w's life story. I'm pretty confident that it was part of my xh's.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 07:50:56 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2020, 10:03:24 AM »
SS: so much going on right now, you are having so many revelations, insights and so much illuminations. I really feel for you, some of this must be so hard to realize, to start to see the pain our loved ones may have experienced. And how hard it is to know that they could NOT even share it with us, the people they are closest to and trust the most. So you can imagine how bad it really must be for them. I know my wife and I talked about everything and she shared a LOT of what happened to her. But I always saw how she discounted and diminished how bad it was, she would be shocked to see my reaction and horror in her stories. And I am sure there are things she never told me, because she doesn’t even tell herself. But I could see the edges of it in other behaviour.

And I am so proud of you (no offense) for hearing your therapist about threading lightly (and if fact not even approaching) this topic with your wife. Even therapists will NOT poke or prod until they are sure the person is ready and strong enough to face the trauma. All you can do is to listen with no reaction or judgment if she does bring anything up, and make sure she knows none of it changes how you love her and see her. Because somewhere in her mind she may think she is “tainted” or “unloveable” and best we can do is to show that is not true without trying to fix it.

Read all you can, the more you learn for yourself the more you can truly engage your empathy and get a tiny glimpse of what she is going through. And hopefully one day when she is ready she will step into a therapists office and do the hard work of healing. But right now she probably has no capacity for it.

Hang in there my friend, take care of yourself, be a loving, caring, neutral anchor and lighthouse for her in what may be her darkest time. Lean back, this is her journey and no matter how much we want to reach in and help them we can not and should not. We can only cheer them on as you say when they are ready and be there to catch them and let them cry on our shoulders. And to show them they truly are worth of love.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2020, 10:22:56 AM »
SS: so much going on right now, you are having so many revelations, insights and so much illuminations. I really feel for you, some of this must be so hard to realize, to start to see the pain our loved ones may have experienced. And how hard it is to know that they could NOT even share it with us, the people they are closest to and trust the most. So you can imagine how bad it really must be for them. I know my wife and I talked about everything and she shared a LOT of what happened to her. But I always saw how she discounted and diminished how bad it was, she would be shocked to see my reaction and horror in her stories. And I am sure there are things she never told me, because she doesn’t even tell herself. But I could see the edges of it in other behaviour.

And I am so proud of you (no offense) for hearing your therapist about threading lightly (and if fact not even approaching) this topic with your wife. Even therapists will NOT poke or prod until they are sure the person is ready and strong enough to face the trauma. All you can do is to listen with no reaction or judgment if she does bring anything up, and make sure she knows none of it changes how you love her and see her. Because somewhere in her mind she may think she is “tainted” or “unloveable” and best we can do is to show that is not true without trying to fix it.

Read all you can, the more you learn for yourself the more you can truly engage your empathy and get a tiny glimpse of what she is going through. And hopefully one day when she is ready she will step into a therapists office and do the hard work of healing. But right now she probably has no capacity for it.

Hang in there my friend, take care of yourself, be a loving, caring, neutral anchor and lighthouse for her in what may be her darkest time. Lean back, this is her journey and no matter how much we want to reach in and help them we can not and should not. We can only cheer them on as you say when they are ready and be there to catch them and let them cry on our shoulders. And to show them they truly are worth of love.

Hey Marvin,

Sorry you went thru something very similar with your W. That "Tainted" reference strikes a chord with me, because mine has always felt that way too. How mine also discounted her past, and just wouldn't let it go while also keeping it as far away from herself as possible. Yup, hopefully one day they can all work on issues like that. I certainly can't imagine what that must be like, or how it affects self-worth (or esteem).

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2020, 04:28:02 PM »
Journaling:

I invited W to join me at the mall...... there was a store I wanted to visit just for fun, and I know how much W loves to shop  :D she used to call it "Therapy" (for stress).  :P
I'm not entirely sure if we've done this since BD...... I don't think so (not just for fun). So I asked, and she instantly agreed and thought it was a great idea. Very nice.
With the exception of Target or a stand-alone department store, I haven't seen her in this environment that she has always so thoroughly enjoyed.... so today was going to be interesting.

We drive over and I pass by the store I wanted to visit, and she was confused.... "Don't you want to go in there?"..... and I respond "how about we walk around the mall? Have some fun  ;D ". She smiled and agreed...... and so we went in all the stores she had an interest in: Furniture, shoes, Bath and Body works, and we ate at the food court. It was wonderful in many ways. I wish we would have held hands, but we had very nice conversation and I got a few genuine laughs out of her (not an easy feat).
It did make me a little sad..... maybe bittersweet...... I know this woman.... I know how much she loved to shop.... and while she enjoyed parts of it, there was a lot of robot in there..... just going thru the motions..... some complaining (why).... but overall it was great. I just wish she could fully enjoy herself, and be happy. My heart breaks for her.
Towards the end, she said another headache was coming on (once we had hit all the stores she was interested in)....... but, there was some consideration, which made the whole visit very special to me: The store I wanted to visit.... it was the last store on the way to the car. I offered to skip it, I just wanted to spend some time and have fun... mission accomplished. She smiled at that..... and as we got close to the store, she offered something in turn: "We can go in there for a moment..... I'll be ok". I wanted to skip it, but I understand that you have to take what they have to give...... because it is a gift, and to say no is to reject what they have to offer. So I accepted. We were in there for 5min and she was trying to be helpful. Then it was time for me to give back "I'm good...... I've seen what I wanted to see", and we left. Upon getting home she crashed and is sound asleep now.
She did her best, it was kind and wonderful, and in the only way she has to give now: Loving.

I'm a happy and blessed man.

One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2020, 02:31:57 PM »
I keep meaning to reply to your comments (sorry T and FJ)  :)

Journaling:
I've decided to really start moving forward (still standing of course, no question about that). Today I've started working on a vacation for me.
How cool is that? I'm going to take a week in New Orleans in March...... W can join if she wants (I'm going to tell her tonight) or not. Some quiet time for her would be good anyway, and she can miss my cooking  :P  (I'm pretty sure she'll say no).
It's going to be a ton of fun..... getting back into an interest and industry that brings me such joy and happiness (I've been out of the game for 4 years...... Hmmmmm same time as W's shadow period.... coincidence? Nope). Big convention for two days, and then sightseeing all by my lonesome for three days. It's going to be incredible! Restarting my lifelong dream.  8) I hope I get my partner back, but that's up to her and it's a choice only she can make..... but I can't stop just to wait for her.

In other news: My blood pressure is down! Wooo-Hooo! Lowest score last night since I started tracking it... and that's with W home! Super-Awesome. I don't think it has to do with less stress, or in getting in shape.... just that I'm not letting the sitch ride me like it has before. Progress. I'm letting go (in a positive way, and I don't mean "scraping her off"..... I won't do that). Still higher than it needs to be, but it's going in the right direction (finally).
I did this awesome biceps workout last night, and hit both bicep heads...... oh yeah  ;D Give me two months, and I'm going to be looking very different.
I'm resolved to look like Frank Zane (well, a taller version anyway)..... that is my goal. Maybe the ladies can tell me if that's too much.... but I think it's beautiful.

Nothing really to say about W today.... it's all about me (WOW).

-SS

 
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2020, 02:37:12 PM »
Nothing really to say about W today.... it's all about me (WOW).

 ;D ;D 8) :D :D

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2020, 06:40:40 PM »
Awesome SS!  I’m glad your following your dream and your blood pressure is down!!!  No need to comment about the discussion the other day as far as I’m concerned unless you just want too!

Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2020, 08:41:20 AM »
I have a question about the "Shadow Pre-BD" period.

We know that it's typical for a couple years to go by in "Shadow Pre-BD" before BD........ W had to be special and it was like 4 years (for sure), possibly longer.
For a while I had been looking for what lit the fuse.... it was confusing because normally it's set off by a death of someone close and I was like "No one's died". Just couldn't put it together. So I assumed that a business failure (well, sorta failure. It was a big success but didn't do what W wanted right out of the gate). So I assumed that must have been it (that was 4 years prior to BD, and W changed BIG TIME after that, instantly)....... but looking back, she was still addicted to work long before that, and was emotionally distant but not totally emotionally abandoning me yet.

Then it hit me the other day.... there was a death, and it was a BIG one..... but it was 8 years ago. This would make W 31 (which seems very early to me), but it was a big hit to her. MIL's MLC-H (not a good man)...... W hated him for a long time, blamed him (rightfully) for screwing up MIL while she was in MLC (although W has no knowledge or understanding of MLC or her mom's MLC). Hated him so bad, she wanted him to die a slow agonizing death (and he did...... leukemia). Well, in a nutshell...... MIL ran off with this guy, D'ed her H, woke up too late to go home (and too much damage/guilt) and stayed with this guy until he passed. W hated him, but worked for years to forgive him and in time.... she did. After forgiving him, she eventually accepted him and came to love him as a person. Then he died. We visited him right before he passed, and W cried and cried. Then he passed and she cried some more. SIL never forgave him, and still hates him to this day. I believe now that was the 1st hit in lighting her fuse. So much of her emotions had been invested in the breakup of her mom and dad, and so much blame had been placed in this man. Since I've read it takes multiple hits (three) to lite the fuse, that was #1 (8 years ago), something was hit #2 (crazy devotion to job I think, she worked herself to death - that was 8 years ago to present), then business failure hit #3 (4.5 years ago, instant emotional behavior changes), and then hit #4 glass ceiling mass panic attack (1.5 years ago, total emotional collapse)...... fuse was lite and burning..... BD almost 1 year ago.

This also makes me wonder if there's another event they go thru beyond lighting the fuse, burning the fuse...... if there's something when the fuse has burnt out and right before the bomb goes off? Five months before she broke down in BD #1, she thought she was topped out at work (perceived glass ceiling) and went absolutely bonkers..... breakdown after breakdown......... something she witnesses 1st hand with her mom before her mom went MLC and abandoned them (the mom worked herself to death to the exclusion of her family for years, until her looks started to falter and some weight was gained..... then she figured her career climb was over and *BOOM* MLC in earnest). Amazing how these behaviors are learned, and the cycle is perpetuated thru generations. W has been replaying her mom's life it seems like her whole life (just more successful in a career sense). Like she's trying to accomplish what her mom tried to do and failed at (professional career woman).

So, another piece falls into place..... understanding. Here I had been thinking "oh, W was 35 when the shadow started...... yeah that makes sense.... it's the golden age of falling into MLC for women"....... and yet I hadn't considered the time it takes to get that fuse burning, or how their behavior changes as the sparks fall on that fuse trying to get it lit.

What a process.

How long was your MLC'ers "Shadow Period" and how long did it take for their fuse to get lit? How many "hits" to get that fuse lit?


One day at a time,

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Disillusioned

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2020, 08:59:54 AM »
Good question SS - And I have long wondered why the "clock starts" at BD when so many of us can look back in hindsight and see the warning signs for years before BD.

I have pinpointed several things for MLCW.

1.  Her mother (who sadly passed in 2019) went through a major health scare in 2013. 

2.  In 2014, her job, where she was employed for 15 years, quit paying her regularly.  It was a sole proprietorship, and she went into a deep depression over it.  I wasn't quite sure how to handle it, and I think I was in my own transitional phase at the time so despite my stepping up with D2 (at the time) and taking care of meals and the house, my empathy wasn't exactly overflowing.  I had been warning her for years that he would eventually not be able to pay her, so it came as no surprise to me.  I didn't beat her up about it, and I was calm.  We dug into savings to survive and I didn't hold it over her head.

Early after BD in 2017, when she actually seemed far more introspective than she does now, she said 2014 had done irrevocable damage to our marriage.  What I now believe is her mother's illness and what technically was a loss of a job started her into the Shadow period and major depression.  It certainly fits the roadmap we know.

When she got her new job in 2015, she was off to the races.  New friends, new clothes, lots of events without her spouse.  And, an OM (married, of course.)

As I watch her begin to wrap up our D, my concern is that she may be at the end of her depression and it seems to coincide with our D.  Will she equate the lifting of the depressive period with our D, and feel that getting back to an emotional "normal" is due to kicking me out of her life?  It's sad to contemplate, but there's not much I can do about it.  She still says she has "major trust issues" with me. 

It's in God's hands, now.


M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2020, 09:17:04 AM »
Looking back, I think something makes them feel unsafe or uncomfortable in their skin, probably multiple somethings. And they try a few solutions out which don't work before they decide that we are the problem.

My h was very uncomfortable with his boss and the ethics of his job in 2012/13. The same time we moved house, ironically bc of his job, but left a very supportive church and social community where we were loved and valued. He talked about setting up in business as a football agent with some colleagues (hated football and knew nothing abou t it or indeed running a business  ::) ). Also talked about becoming a vicar...or an author ::) I was a bit concernted so said nothing but crossed my fingers to see where it all fell out. In the end, he did neither but talked about leaving the sector he worked in to move into technology. Did nothing about that either.

2014...a couple of friends died suddenly, his grandmother died, some FOO drama with his father who sat in Paris waiting for my h to guess a 24 hour window when his father's mother would die (I know   ::)::) ), his aunt sold what had been his emotional family home, one of our cats died, my father was suddenly told he had a terminal illness the day before the grandmothers funeral, he got knocked back for a promotion and salary increase. 2015 was just grim...more death and funerals, my mother was a bit odd, I was emotionally numb and practically busy. H got a new job working away during the week a month before my father died.

So I think my h was uncomfortable and searching in 2012- 14. Then I think his world fell apart in 2015 and he hit some kind of critical boom mass.....about a three/four year run up to BD I suppose. No idea if ow was chicken or egg timing-wise.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 09:19:47 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2020, 10:04:43 AM »
It is very interesting..... the clock starting at BD.

I wonder.

I had thought the "average" for the shadow period was 2 years, but just like it's been said that the time in replay was underestimated..... perhaps it is true for Shadow also. What could be interesting (if it can be discovered) is if there's a relationship between the length of Shadow period to the replay period.

I don't think Shadow has been looked at in too much depth as Replay is what concerns most people (the most).

I'm also curious about the state of disconnection during Shadow and when the "break" happens. We know that at BD everything is brought to the fore.... but there is pre-planning during shadow...... at what point are they aware and commit to a course of action which doesn't involve us? I know for sure, W was planning for a year pre-BD (and I'm leaning closer to two years). We know most are in an A way before BD. So when is the actual break? We are the last to know as the spouse (on the front end and the back end). I wanted to believe the choice is made at some point between the fuse lighting and BD (with the assumption of very close to BD), but now I'm wondering if the choice is actually made subconsciously at fuse lit, and becomes aware to the conscious mind as time goes on. Thus it isn't building pressure about making a choice, it's the building pressure to accept a choice already made.
Just a pondering.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2020, 12:49:58 PM »
I think for my W the ball started rolling in late 2009, so that would be -9½ years from BD . Ever since life's been crisis after another.

Based on the little she's told, the heavyweight symptoms (sleeping issues, seeing me as bully etc) kicked after S5 was born (possibly babyblues mixing with all other stuff), so it would be -5 years from BD.

She says love died -2years from BD. And EA started -1 year from BD.

And all that time she kept it all under the hood, until...

Looking back i can see there were clues not everything was right (like refusing to dance with me at her brothers wedding, rejecting her cousins request to have us two as godfather+mother of their twins, increased gaming and use of phone,...). But love does make one blind.  Possibly the only thing I regret not pushing for answers was missing the chance to become a godfather. It was a request I took as great privilege, and it did hurt when W allowed it to slip (she just never replied to them, I thought it was simply because of life keeping us super busy).

But... I'd say mine has been on this route for 10 years by now. 

Alvin
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 01:11:52 PM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Offline Disillusioned

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2020, 01:36:40 PM »
Good question SS - And I have long wondered why the "clock starts" at BD when so many of us can look back in hindsight and see the warning signs for years before BD.

I have pinpointed several things for MLCW.

1.  Her mother (who sadly passed in 2019) went through a major health scare in 2013. 

2.  In 2014, her job, where she was employed for 15 years, quit paying her regularly.  It was a sole proprietorship, and she went into a deep depression over it.  I wasn't quite sure how to handle it, and I think I was in my own transitional phase at the time so despite my stepping up with D2 (at the time) and taking care of meals and the house, my empathy wasn't exactly overflowing.  I had been warning her for years that he would eventually not be able to pay her, so it came as no surprise to me.  I didn't beat her up about it, and I was calm.  We dug into savings to survive and I didn't hold it over her head.

Early after BD in 2017, when she actually seemed far more introspective than she does now, she said 2014 had done irrevocable damage to our marriage.  What I now believe is her mother's illness and what technically was a loss of a job started her into the Shadow period and major depression.  It certainly fits the roadmap we know.

When she got her new job in 2015, she was off to the races.  New friends, new clothes, lots of events without her spouse.  And, an OM (married, of course.)

As I watch her begin to wrap up our D, my concern is that she may be at the end of her depression and it seems to coincide with our D.  Will she equate the lifting of the depressive period with our D, and feel that getting back to an emotional "normal" is due to kicking me out of her life?  It's sad to contemplate, but there's not much I can do about it.  She still says she has "major trust issues" with me. 

It's in God's hands, now.

OMG!  I completely forgot the other BIG one that was the subject of so much dissension on the boards months back.  STBX was diagnosed perimenopausal in 2014 as well.  *ducks head*  :P
M=51
W=47
D=8
BD Feb 17 Thinking of divorce
Atomic BD June 17 Spying revealed OM at work
Still home.  Threatened to leave several times and has asked me to leave about a dozen. 
Says divorce proceedings will start Jan 18.
She has scheduled mediation Feb 7,  2018
I moved out March 16, 2018
Several mediations, mostly instigated by me.  Foot dragging by STBXW.  Nothing filed. Yet.
5/2019 STBXW filed D behind my back despite signed agreement to mediate.
I retain attorney.
STBXW still hasn't told me and no further action.
Elephant in the room has been addressed.  No further action atm.  Weighing my options.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2020, 01:45:48 PM »
Ohhhhh Alvin..... 10 years.... that makes yours 31 when she started ...... and mine (I think) also started...... 31....... are our W's clones or something? Separated at birth?
 :o LOL!!!

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2020, 02:18:11 PM »
Mine was in the pre for two years.  The deployment was the catalyst and his MLC mom has been on deaths edge for years now.  I also think all of life’s stresses were too much for him after the deployment.  Having a large family, having a high profile stressful job.  He felt like his whole life was obligation and work.

Considering that BD happened right after a move across the country and a new job for him that probably had something to do with it too.
Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2020, 01:35:00 PM »
Journaling and a reflection/question:

Journaling:
Well, I've been hard at work planning and booking my vacation....... LOL!!!!! It was so weird when she made her solo vacation/Christmas..... and now I'm doing the same!!!! Who'd have thought? (Not me). Shocking.
I'm rapidly realizing that I can't do everything I want in a week while on vacation.... going to have to pick and choose. Anyone been to New Orleans? Any tips or "must" do's (or "must" eats)?
So exciting not having to worry about what anyone else wants to do.... it's just me... I can hang around just killing time, and no one to answer to. It's a very odd and strangely wonderful feeling. Still.... it's not all positive. Things are much more fun when you do them with someone. I told a friend last night and he was blown away (the trade show is something a lot of people can only dream about - it's so mysterious  :P )..... he said "OMG, you're living the dream!!! I want to go so bad. I don't know anyone who does anything like that, it's like out of a movie or something".  ;)
Yes it is.
I haven't posted anything to facebook in years..... and soon it's going to explode with pictures and stories while I'm on vacation.  8)

For once my MLC'er will be wondering what I am doing, and am I getting into trouble (of course not, but it's a good thing for her to wonder).
This time I will be the one in an exciting environment, filled with money and leaders of industry. She already knows I rate very highly in this group, so to see me take off like a rocket is not something I think she wants to see. Last time, it became a competition to her (why I don't know)..... and I was taken aback... "why is my wife competing with me? We're on the same team!!! My success is her success!?!?!?" (little did I know about the shadow period).


I think the idea that I'm on the warpath once again is sending a message to W...... here I'm starting up again, not standing still..... and when I reconnect with people in the industry..... well, it will really send a shock thru her because I'm going after my dream..... no stopping, no apologies. Her dream is stalled out, and she's doing nothing to go after it...... excuses and blame. I only have myself to blame for stopping for a few years, and I own that. Time to get moving.
This morning she snuggled up to me (1st time in months) and last night she held my hand (for about 3 seconds..... LOL!!!!).
She doesn't have to worry, but I hope she worries. I'm certainly not boring, not lazy, not un-fun and not un-alpha.


Which brings me to some thoughts and recollections that W said a month or two ago (a deep convo): She told me.... "I can't finish anything, and I don't know why. I start something, and it fizzles out for no reason. All these projects, and not one is finished. Years of work and I just can't get any of them done. What's wrong with me? Am I afraid of failure?".
I thought this was a very  honest look at herself.... it was only for a sentence or two, but it showed the thoughts were in there. I gave it some thought, but put it away for processing later. Now I'm thinking about it, since it has to do with life dreams. In her case, she paints (and is beyond incredible.... I mean really, really super..... gallery class), wants to write a children's book, wants to sell prints of her art, wants to travel.........
Do other MLC'ers have a problem with finishing anything? Or maybe a better word is everything.
Anyone see that in theirs? Mine has had this problem forever, and I thought "that's just her", and I did so much to support, foster, enable her dreams...... but for her to talk about it during MLC means she's aware of this problem on some level and it bothers her..... and also makes me think, her not finishing anything all these years was her insecurity..... part of  which eventually blew up in MLC.

Life is so interesting when the pieces start to fall together. Then it's like "duh".

One day at a time,

-SS

W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2020, 12:11:46 AM »
Ohhhhh Alvin..... 10 years.... that makes yours 31 when she started ...... and mine (I think) also started...... 31....... are our W's clones or something? Separated at birth?
 :o LOL!!!

-SS

They do share a lot of similarites on many parts, but not so much with others... Bit like you and me. Lot of same, but still so different... Maybe the story of all of us.... But if you tell your W started getting her first silvery streaks at 31, then they are likely clones, LOL.
 

Re, the length of shadow-MLC and what follows ...  I have read quite a lot of archived stories (of male LBS), and it seems the length of shadow-MLC varies from few years up to 10 years (and maybe some are even more extreme); the biggest influencer there being EA/PA.  Is it easily available? Is EA/PA-candidate willing to cross the boundary (not all are, even a not-so-pretty-guy like me has turned down some "bids to engage" during my marriage)?  Is EA/PA interested of slow or fast track (especially affair downs seem to be financially motivated and move fast)? etc....  I think what kept my W masking/hiding her true feelings so long was that we lived a somewhat isolated, family oriented life.  EA did get into picture only when W went back to school (the opportunity knocking with new interpersonal connections), and the whole process warped into high gear when they connected (crossing the emotional boundary by telling they feel unhappy in relationship, finding comfort in another person, developing limerance with another person than spouse)... All in all I don't know if I should feel myself fortunate or not, as I feel there are different pro's and con's with  short/long shadow-MLC.

Alvin
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
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Online Helpingme!

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2020, 03:43:02 AM »
SS
My W is the same. Slowly getting back to her old self. But she was always prepared. Planned things out. Yes, she finished everything she started.
She has said Many times during this mess, she always tried to be perfect. It was never good enough. She would just say that outloud .
But she went from being woman that would clean the dust from cracks with a toothbrush when she washed her car, to washing just half of it and walking off. I think it's a mixture of them getting to a stage of they just don't give a $h!t and their mind doesn't stay focused ver long. Just my little simple opinion. 

Offline Thunder

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2020, 07:35:10 AM »
Standing, I think it's a great idea for you to plan a fun trip for yourself, but don't do it just to make her jealous or worried...or to get her attention.

Just go to have fun and relax a bit.

Be careful – manipulating other people’s emotions is not easy, and it can often backfire. If your w senses that you are somehow scheming to make her jealous, or worried, it may remind her of negative aspects (in her head) of your past relationship which led to her lose feelings for you. You don’t want that. So tread carefully.

The good news is that there are some good ways to focus on yourself, have fun, and make your own life better, and all those things work very well to make your w jealous or worried, too. 

"Wow look how much fun he is having without me, I wish I had gone with him."
Not  "I'm worried, why is he having so much fun without me?"

One could have a negative effect...anger, one could have a positive effect, next time I'll go with him.
Jmo

Have a nice day, Standing.
A quote from a recovered MLCer: 
"From my experience if my H had let me go a long time ago, and stop pressuring me, begging, and pleading and just let go I possibly would have experienced my awakening sooner than I did."

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2020, 08:34:30 AM »
SS: I remember my first trip after BD alone, after traveling most of the time for vacations and fun trips with wife. I remember in the overnight flight at one point I just pulled the cover over my head and cried at some point. It was cathartic and it was part of it. So yes plan, have fun and go and let the feeling come and there will sadness and loss.

But like you I also noticed on the trip itself that I was actually having more fun in some ways. Sure I missed my wife and doing things together, but not having to adjust to another person, plan together, accommodate had its own advantages. And in my case I had not been registering how for the past couple of years before BD my wife was more and more negative and it was actually coloring my experience of our trips. Going alone i was oddly calm and actually having more fun.

It will be interesting to see what your experience is. But as others are saying so well: do it all for you, no intent or agenda.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2020, 03:22:58 PM »
Oh no T, it's not to make her jealous....... it was just a pondering. This is for me, nothing more  8)

Journaling:

I noticed something interesting..... could be nothing. Probably nothing.
A few months back she got a perm to put some frizz in her hair. Said she was tired of it taking so long to style (very straight hair, but absolutely beautiful hair). I was like "great, sounds good" (I like variety), and she did. It looked good, she was happy to not spend so much time on it. Before we met or were together she also had a perm. At the time I was wondering "Hmmmm is this part of going into the past?", but didn't give it too much thought.... it was her choice, and whatever she wants to do is fine with me.
Fast forward to a couple days ago...... and she's straightening her hair with a curling iron...... and putting it into braids..... a couple days later, straightening it and styling it in the "regular" way. Huh.... that's interesting. Not a big deal, not any deal....... just different. She wants to know what I like best (I like it all). So, for the moment..... it's straight again, but she wants another perm. Well, whatever you want sweety. Knock yourself out. LOL!!!!!


Today we setup the security system I got her for Christmas. She seemed to like it, and we were able to do it together  ;D
Afterward, she was done..... alone time!!! In the MBR watching Charmed and learning Spanish now.  ::) It's all good.
I hope she feels safer: a safe home is important..... especially to MLC'ers (IMO).

I started reading a book called "When a woman you love was abused" by Dawn Scott Jones. Only about a fourth of the way thru so far, but it's very interesting. Hope to be thru it tonight (tomorrow at the latest). So many behaviors listed that exist in my W....... talks about the inability of women who go thru this can't talk about (or even admit to themselves) how they are impacted and how everything is a coping behavior. Very nice to put so much into context, and perhaps.... perhaps.... understand a little better (or empathize), although we can't really talk about it...... I will be silent, and give the right support when she reaches out for it. Something that stood out to me is that sexual abuse survivor views their life as serving others and feel like they don't know who they are (and that they wear masks). There's going to be a lot over overlap between MLC and her processing of her past (obviously, they are intertwined). Well, we know MLC isn't straightforward and every case is unique. Bring on the complexity.

One day at a time,

-SS
   
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline lawprofessor

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2020, 04:00:51 PM »
Just an FYI for the men here.

A woman that gets a perm might get angry if her fella accidentally says frizz rather than curls! 

To simplify,
Curls good.
Frizz bad.
 ;) :D
Lp
if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2020, 04:53:18 PM »
Just an FYI for the men here.

A woman that gets a perm might get angry if her fella accidentally says frizz rather than curls! 

To simplify,
Curls good.
Frizz bad.
 ;) :D
Lp

Awww crap..... and it looks frizzy to me. Curls..... waves...... com'on SS!!!! Get with the program.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2020, 12:39:12 AM »
Well I finished that book....... it was very good, with a real crap ending.
So much overlaps with what is taught in MLC...... well, maybe if the MLC'er has past FOO/Sex issues anyway. Lots of overlap...... some of the things she describes makes me think she MLC'ed.

Good book.... oh right, the crap ending: 27 year M, *BANG* down the toilet. Her H gave up. She doesn't say how long what could have been an MLC lasted (sounds like years and years).... only that she was normal and then reached a breaking point, projected her pain on her H, treated him terribly while she "healed", and in the end he quit (it sounds like he gave a really good go at it). Then she remarried within two years and is happy as a clam. Almost sounds like she even blamed him for giving up as he "abandoned her" and yet she considered both of them victims of her past.

Fascinating if it was MLC in the end, and to see her thought process on the whole thing.
I see a twisted logic to it (as I have seen in other ex-W-MLC'ers that I've personally talked to), and it almost seems like his giving up spurred her to heal/bake. Of course she didn't go back to him, instead "I'm all healed, time to shack up with someone who has paid nothing, done nothing, sacrificed nothing" (Hmmmmm, I guess that's a trigger for me  :P ).

I did find it interesting that she says H's have a huge ability to help a woman going thru what she did, and that I agree with.
One book down, two more on the way.

One book at a time,  ;)

-SS 
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2020, 11:03:28 PM »
I did find it interesting that she says H's have a huge ability to help a woman going thru what she did, and that I agree with.

Curios - what was in her opinion the key lesson her H succeeded/failed (apart of quitting)?

Alvin.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2020, 05:44:47 AM »
I did find it interesting that she says H's have a huge ability to help a woman going thru what she did, and that I agree with.

Curios - what was in her opinion the key lesson her H succeeded/failed (apart of quitting)?

Alvin.


From her point of view, he took lots of hits that she wrongfully dished out (now that she understands what she was doing). In that way he gave a lot of support and was patient with her. He failed in her eyes by not being empathetic enough in the right areas that she needed and also hurt her by expressing "why can't you get over this?". 

There is a short letter from this man toward the end of the book, and he straight up says (for him) zero sex and nonstop rejection made him throw in the towel. If there had been some give in that area, he'd have stuck it thru. He just got to a place where he believed she would never be better and I'm sure resentment just took over.

She doesn't talk about him much thru the book, but the tone I get is that she wishes it would have worked out and that she knows how bad she was towards him...... but that also it was a function of her recovery and absolutely the most important thing to her is/was personal healing. This rang a lot of bells for me with how the MLC'er/ex-MLC'er feels after MLC: They did what they did, and care most that they came thru their ordeal...... not the casualties. She talks a lot about "masks" and the "inner child", which is a dead ringer for a lot of what we see with MLC'ers (IMO). In her case, she didn't leave the home, didn't want a D (although she admitted saying a lot of very hurtful things by way of projection), and was "abandoned" when her H threw in the towel.

In her opinion, the healing (MLC) starts naturally at some point when they have a moment with an extreme break (I think she's describing BD without knowledge of MLC) and that his happens at a time which is not chosen by the W. This process last years (or as long as it takes from her POV). She describes lost emotions and memories which require lots of time to mentally/emotionally sort out and requires the W to choose to heal (no choice to heal and there's no healing) and all the "boxes" in her head had to be rummaged thru, sorted, and a new personality meshed together and emerge (once she totally faced her past).

Interesting book. Certainly helped me understand better what it could be like from W's point of view.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2020, 06:20:41 AM »
Interesting, Standing.
Did she show much empathy for how difficult it must have been for her h then based on his experience and the limits of what he could possibly have known at the time? Or indeed did the h's letter show much empathy for her experience or limited understanding of what was happening to her?

Did you get a sense of how many years had elapsed between her version of BD and when she wrote the book? My suspicion is that a bit of Me Me and some still impaired empathy is probably there even as people recover or even reconcile, maybe for both MLCer and LBS actually. Probably takes longer than we think to heal through all of the shared broken bits as well as the individual bits.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:24:51 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2020, 08:10:14 AM »
Interesting, Standing.
Did she show much empathy for how difficult it must have been for her h then based on his experience and the limits of what he could possibly have known at the time? Or indeed did the h's letter show much empathy for her experience or limited understanding of what was happening to her?

Did you get a sense of how many years had elapsed between her version of BD and when she wrote the book? My suspicion is that a bit of Me Me and some still impaired empathy is probably there even as people recover or even reconcile, maybe for both MLCer and LBS actually. Probably takes longer than we think to heal through all of the shared broken bits as well as the individual bits.

Hey T  :)

Not really....... there is a little, but she sees her abuse as victimizing both her and her (ex)H. The way she puts it is so "matter of factly" it struck me as very unempathetic for her (ex)H..... very much all about her (even afterward).

She doesn't give timelines, but they had 27 years married.... she does mention the 20 year mark several times during the book but doesn't say specifically that she detonated at 20. It is very obvious from what she wrote that it was years from when she broke, and that there was a long period before that which was very difficult and built worse and worse (and a time before that in which everything was fine). This seemed to me like the shadow period, BD and then post BD periods.
Her opinion was that her past experiences existed in the subconscious, and for whatever reason they creep out in to the conscious mind (slowly) and caused havoc when it reached critical mass. She said her H had the potential to be a great help so long as further hurt is not added (not validating her pain, not showing empathy, being dismissive of her pain). It seems like her (ex)H was durable but not emotionally supportive. She did know she hurt him badly (but not at the time) but almost seemed to blame him for not providing all she needed during her processing. The most empathy she gives him is acknowledging that he didn't sign up for HER mess and that it wasn't fair to him, but that it wasn't her choice either to be damaged. It seemed like her opinion was that he was married to her, and no matter what she dished out it was his to bear as well. That's what I got anyway (could be wrong). There is no mention about any reconciliation attempts, so I think he was just done and walked away (understandable). She does quote him (at a therapy session? I can't remember) that she had rejected him "49,000 times".

I totally agree, there was still some "me, me" and impaired empathy. I think there is a lot of "Yay for me!!! I'm healed and that's all I care about". I guess that's understandable too..... someone is living under the yolk of a troubled past and then one day is healed from it...... that has to be very freeing and wonderful, but to look back and see what was sacrificed for that healing (and knowing you were wrong in hurting someone you loved very much), I'm not sure how anyone can really square that with themselves or if they can really be totally honest with themselves about it. She is very clear that the choice to heal is a decision and that the women who go thru this can run from it instead of facing it (and thus never heal). I think that's spot on for all MLC'ers. That lines right up with "they have to do their work", and sometimes they just refuse to do so. She also talks about being stuck while trying to heal and getting thru that stuckness is very difficult and time consuming. Her advise to H's was to be patient, be supportive (in the right ways), don't take it personal, take care of yourself, and that no one (besides herself) is more influential in the healing process.

-SS       
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

 

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