Author Topic: My Story Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?  (Read 2559 times)

Online AlvinTheMaker

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My Story Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 08:59:02 AM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.
Anyway, just an interesting tidbit.

I'm no longer surprised how much we progress / process the same stuff.... I had similar talk with my IC earlier this week, except I was able to educate her (she knew there was a risk, but did not know the numbers)... There is actually a somewhat recent study according to which 50% of spouses/partners of depressed person develop some mental issues of their own within one year , and 80% experience mental health issues withing 2-year landmark.  The most common issue was anxiety (ding-ding-ding), followed by depression...  Of course there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but I have no reason to doubt the numbers.

Alvin.
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 11:06:43 AM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.

This is great insight. And really a tiny portion of why the advice to detach, to not try to help, guide, advice, etc is generally given. It is not from negativity, rather even in something as simple as "depression" a therapist is the one to help, someone trained, experienced and qualified who also has his/her own extensive support network to maintain their own footing (including their own therapist).

Imagine now with MLC which is multivariate and complex how someone trying to help, specially when the person is someone incredibly close to them and deeply emotionally involved.

Brief version: going down with the drowning person does no good to the drowning person, and is not all that great for the person helping either.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 03:20:05 PM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.
Anyway, just an interesting tidbit.

I'm no longer surprised how much we progress / process the same stuff.... I had similar talk with my IC earlier this week, except I was able to educate her (she knew there was a risk, but did not know the numbers)... There is actually a somewhat recent study according to which 50% of spouses/partners of depressed person develop some mental issues of their own within one year , and 80% experience mental health issues withing 2-year landmark.  The most common issue was anxiety (ding-ding-ding), followed by depression...  Of course there are lies, damned lies and statistics, but I have no reason to doubt the numbers.

Alvin.

I totally believe those numbers are correct or close to it. Without knowing/understanding what is happening...... most are going to stand with their spouse right over the cliff.  ;D

When you love someone so much..... how can you not be affected? When someone is in pain, you have sympathy pain with them...... can totally see how that would carry over to mental/emotional illness as well.

-SS
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 03:27:08 PM »
Oh.... here was something interesting that I learned at my last IC: They were talking about depression and what happens in homes where a spouse is depressed (one depressed, one not). According to my IC they have done studies where you'd assume one person helps the depressed person be more "normal" (one person "moves" the depressed person by rubbing off on them). Turns out the opposite typically happens....... the "normal" person begins moving towards depression themselves, not the other way around. Very interesting..... and it lines up with what it talked about here and what people report experiencing in their lives..... how difficult it is, how they get dragged down, etc.

This is great insight. And really a tiny portion of why the advice to detach, to not try to help, guide, advice, etc is generally given. It is not from negativity, rather even in something as simple as "depression" a therapist is the one to help, someone trained, experienced and qualified who also has his/her own extensive support network to maintain their own footing (including their own therapist).

Imagine now with MLC which is multivariate and complex how someone trying to help, specially when the person is someone incredibly close to them and deeply emotionally involved.

Brief version: going down with the drowning person does no good to the drowning person, and is not all that great for the person helping either.

Yup, I think generally that is correct: Jumping in to drown is a bad idea....... and that's what most people who don't know try in the beginning: The begging, pleading, pushing the MLC'er away without knowing it, becoming totally attached to the roller coaster....... Drowning.

I still think you can be detached (to a certain extent) and be able to throw them lifelines, encouragement, be an example, give love, and in general: Shine.
That does skirt a fine line, and it could be easy to fall over to the other side and be on the roller coaster again. The other extreme is to scrap them off and completely detach. That makes me question what issues come with that approach however. Entering an emotional deprivation tank of our own creation doesn't come without side effects and scars of its own.
Positive detachment, negative detachment.

-SS

W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Online marvin4242

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 03:31:45 PM »
I don’t see it as a choice between detachment and caring/love. For me its understanding that no external love/encouragement/advice can and will help them in this kind of crises. In fact considering its a crises of self anything external is actually not helpful. Note how they are trying everything external they can find to ease the pain, or to find “love” or meaning, or happiness. It is the core of the disorder: externality of internal issues.

So no matter how much we love them and care for them our helping is a little like poison. They will either rebel and reject and be angry, or they will lean temporarily and that is a little like giving an addict more drug. It makes them feel better in the short term but at what cost?

It’s a really hard thing to wrap ones head around and to accept, specially when we are loving, caring people and these are the people we love the most in such pain.

Offline Standing StrongTopic starterTopic starter

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2020, 04:40:05 PM »
Perhaps there are "shades" within MLC which allow or don't allow for that.

We know that all of them have internal issues they are working on. We know that all of them look for something to fill a void of some sort. We know there is a time element which we can't gauge, as whatever unknown process unfolds in their head. We know that within some sort of environment, weather it be a sitch recreation from the past, a fantasy, a feeling of safety, or something else produces the correct temperature for them to "bake". We know that without this environment they don't bake. So what is the environment? We know they absolutely want to bake: they go looking for an oven. They are compelled to do so.

I think the base question (at least that I have) is: Can some of those needs be met in the present while their mind is not in the present? To free them to process?
One good thing about MLC'ers is they have no problem letting you know what they don't want..... instantly. Figuring out what they do want is far more difficult as they don't know and it consistently changes as they discover nothing fills the void (an unseen list they furiously are checking off). There are some exceptions however that are constant universally: Safety, love, support. This is the environment for cooking (IMO).

Left completely to themselves, their processing/recreation is synthetic (like a vitamin is synthetic)..... can you produce real vitamin C (love.... fresh squeezed), which tastes better and makes them feel better? I think the answer is yes.

People take the path of least resistance, MLC or not..... and people like valuable/pretty things, MLC or not. Eventually if you put good things in one of their hands (honey) and keep good things stocked in that hand..... someday they look down at the other hand and realize they are holding a stinky turd. Then the honey looks real good.... and that's not nicing them back. It's just love.... and all humans need love, some more than others.
If we remove choice, and leave only the synthetic..... then we can't blame them for using a synthetic.
Sacrificial? Yes. Difficult? Yes. Needs patience? Absolutely.

They are hungry: Feed them.
They want to talk: Listen to them.
They are hurting: Hug them.
They feel unsafe: Guard them.
They are in chaos: Give them peace.
They need a walk: Let them go.
They knock on the door: Smile and let them in.
Love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

-SS 
W - 38
M - 42
Together 24 years, M 21
No kids
BD - 27th April 2019

Offline Finding Joy

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2020, 06:36:55 PM »
Definitely shades of MLC.  When they cheat, abandon, monster, push you away, lie, divorce, are irresponsible with money, purposely hurt you, hurt their kids etc.  Sometimes it is very necessary to detach in a neutral way. 

I do think in your situation you have done everything and anything you could to help her bake and it seems to be helping.  She has very little stress.   

Married 19 years
Husband is 42
I am 39

BD1-April 2018-Unrecognized by me until way later, he is unhappy, wants counseling.
BD2-October 2018-ILYBNIL, wants a divorce, this after I found out about OW 1(EA), OW2(PA) no longer together.  I believe he is single. 
April 2019 He got an apartment and moved out.
Oct 2019-Apologized for a years worth of monster behavior.  Still wants to start divorce this Spring, is distant, but friendly.  Tries more with kids, but mostly just helps haul them around(superficial).

4 kids 5-15 years

But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2020, 02:05:00 AM »
I think shades of MLC is a fair point.
I do understand your effort, Standing, to recognise that your w is struggling with her own issues and to do your best to adapt and try to create a safe place with you for her to do so. You said on one of your very first posts that this was your goal. I hope it is successful eventually for you both and I don't think it is a bad thing to see people sharing different approaches on HS.

But I don't believe that most MLCers are compelled to find a way to 'bake' even if it seems your wife is. Most are compelled to run from an 'oven' until for some the oven eventually finds them perhaps. By contrast I think many LBS are here hunting for their own oven and work incredibly hard to bake themselves. If MLCers put in half the effort that LBSers do, our situations would be very different imho.

My slight reservation about your perspective sometimes - phrases like removing the choice so we can't blame them for choosing the synthetic - is that it perhaps lacks a level of humility about the difference between the challenges in your situation and those that others face. Most LBS certainly initially are full of guilt and desperation to NOT remove themselves as the good choice over the synthetic; most don't get a choice about that. I worry a little that some LBS will read your words without recognising the practical differences between their situation and yours and will feel a sense of failure.  I don't think you have a wife who is coming back to your house flaunting that she has just left someone else's bed. Or that she has cleaned out your savings. Or filed for divorce with the intent of taking your home, business or children. Or accused you of DV and called the police out on you. Or that you are dealing with distressed children in therapy. These are all pretty common things for a lot of LBS. I am very glad that this is not the case for you, but it perhaps makes your w's behaviour less of a norm here.

For many of us the challenge is more about how to lovingly adapt to a spouse that runs like their hair is on fire while blanket-bombing us and their kids. Working out how to feed/hug/guard etc as you say is a rather different kind of challenge than the one you currently have on your plate. Not easier or more difficult necessarily, but different. I think living with the gaslighting and uncertainty while seeing their pain must be very difficult actually; in a funny way I am grateful that I didn't have to navigate that for too long in my situation but I remember it being excruciatingly painful like watching my h drown in front of me.

There may be some others here whose spouse is similar - either bc they are an MLC wallower or bc perhaps they are not in a full-blown MLC kind of crisis yet - and i can see that your experience might be useful for others trying to navigate something similar. But please tread gently on assuming or asserting that some kind of sacrificial love and safeguarding approach is the LBS gold standard benchmark. After all LBS need safety, love and support too right?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 02:38:41 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online Treasur

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2020, 05:30:46 AM »
One of the things I wanted to add....bc I think you are a person of faith, and ideas about unconditional love can be a bit tricksy for those of us who believe that the heart of our faith is about the importance of God's unconditional love.

William Paul Young (the author of the Shack) frames it in a way which I found very helpful. That God's love for us is unconditional. But part of that love includes believing that our choices matter and respecting our decisions. And that this means that our choices affect the kind of relationship we have with him but they will never remove his relentless affection for us or his desire for us to be healthy and whole. His premise is that the same can be true in human relationships. That our love can be unconditional but our relationships are not. That other humans make choices that affect the kind of relationship we might have with them and that part of unconditional love is respecting their capacity to do great damage as much as we respect their capacity for creating good things. So, his take on it is that unconditional love - God's and our own feeble human versions lol - are both based on respect for others choices while not denying that those choices may profoundly change how the relationship works. (I'm not as wise as Paul Young, so he says it better about 50 mins into this video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMkd1iVg9c  :) )

I found it quite comforting to know that in terms of my faith beliefs it was ok to love my h unconditionally and also to accept and respect that he made choices that made sense to him that changed the nature of our relationship. To not fight the inevitable consequences of his choices maybe but to perhaps be open-minded to the possibility that God might use the consequences of my h's choices for both me and my xh in a much more imaginative way than I could lol.

All to say, I suppose, that love and relationship are not always exactly the same thing maybe.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 05:34:25 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

Online AlvinTheMaker

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Re: Aliens stole my W!!!!! Part 7: The is it real or is it Memorex?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2020, 08:23:38 AM »
I think shades of MLC is a fair point.
...
My slight reservation about your perspective sometimes - phrases like removing the choice so we can't blame them for choosing the synthetic - is that it perhaps lacks a level of humility about the difference between the challenges in your situation and those that others face. Most LBS certainly initially are full of guilt and desperation to NOT remove themselves as the good choice over the synthetic; most don't get a choice about that. I worry a little that some LBS will read your words without recognising the practical differences between their situation and yours and will feel a sense of failure.  I don't think you have a wife who is coming back to your house flaunting that she has just left someone else's bed. Or that she has cleaned out your savings. Or filed for divorce with the intent of taking your home, business or children. Or accused you of DV and called the police out on you. Or that you are dealing with distressed children in therapy. These are all pretty common things for a lot of LBS. I am very glad that this is not the case for you, but it perhaps makes your w's behaviour less of a norm here.

You touch a number of interesting topics here, Treasur.

I think none of us should ever enter the territory "my crisis is worse" or "your crisis does not compare/qualify"  type of comparison.  Not even when trying to protect others from possible hurt...   Everyone's crisis is unique and different.  What combines everyone here is that we all have got a spouse who is going through 'some mental health issue' that affects us and our marriage/relationship with them, and it is happening at midlife.  We are all in the same boat ,we should support and cheer for each others progress, and maybe learn from others when we can.     

The reason I decided to reply was  "common things for a lot of LBS" part...   I don't know if anyone has ever done any kind of "analysis" of the LBS and their partners here, but I've been building up a small research/study about active members of class of 2019 (and more particularly those of us who have become regular posters):

 * there's a somewhat even split of femailes and males, as to be expected

*  80% of couples do have kids, but it still means 1 in 5 does not have to worry the effect this will have on family

- 55% are still married and have not filed for divorce, about third are in progress with divorce or legal separation, and rest are split and divorced.
 
- 40% are still dealing with a live-in,   there are zero vanishers,  and 60% is the stereotypical MLCr with OW/OM and their own place.

So I think apart of kids Standing is somewhat "average LBS  within class of 2019....    I think this is a classic example of "we all see what we want to see"... .Treasur's view of what LBS go through is very different from Standing's view or my view, simply because we all have got very different backgrounds and experiences.   Maybe LBS of the past were more extreme, maybe 2019 is a "good year" with milder MLCs,  maybe there is some fallacy (remember how long mankind believed earth was flat or that sun rotated earth,  simply because there was no research to prove otherwise), maybe situations get worse over time.   

Where to draw the line on what is "common"?  5%, 10%, 20%, 50%....?  How long is a piece of shoestring.  Once again we all see what we want to see. This is definitely an area where all of us must do mirror work of our own.  The more we know of the irrational beliefs we have, the more realistic perspective of this whole thing we can get.

Just my 5 cents worth,

Alvin.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:47:04 AM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD: Feb 2019
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

On LBS diet: started at 281 lbs, now 265 - goal is to lose 66 lbs while being suck at this

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** “Rivers know this: There is no hurry, we shall get there some day.” ***
**** Security is mostly a superstition...Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. ****

 

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