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Author Topic: Discussion The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?

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Discussion Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#20: January 25, 2020, 03:54:07 PM
Friend or Foe?

I strongly believe that we have to exist in the world as it is, not as we want it to be.


That's a big one for me.  Pretty quickly I got to the realization that whether it's MLC or not, that doesn't change the reality of the situation in concrete terms.

1.  H still gone.
2.  Bills still have to be paid.
3.  Still have to un-screw my head.
4.  Still have to build a new life.

How does knowing it MIGHT be MLC change any of those things one bit? 

For me, it doesn't and didn't. 

I'd agree there is some value in knowing you're not alone, and in being part of a community of those who have some similar things happening.

But that only goes so far.  You still have to act rather than talk. 

The big foe part is the theory of MLC is too big, too open ended.  Clingers are not the same as Vanishers.  Monster is not similar across all types.  LBS's are very different.  We weren't all distancers.  Few of us can or would even become the OW to the OW. Few recognize the differences between the types mean different possibilities and different approaches.  We tend to toss out advice like everyone should be kind to the MLCer based on what?  Some personal experience from those with relatively calm and reasonable MLCers.  What if you have a Vanisher?  No contact to be kind to?  What if you have a mean MLCer? 

One theory, one approach, just doesn't seem to me to fit all cases. 

Whatever happens, someone comes along and says, yep that's script, yep he's just not baked enough, yep he's .... On this forum at least.

Years ago Divorce Busting had a woman named Magic.  She just kept arguing and going over the same ground over and over, daily updates on what he said, what he did.  And she refused to hear any advice.  Anyone that tried to discuss anything with her was met with attitude and BUT....excuse after excuse why she didn't need to change, why she didn't need to or couldn't make a new life, why he was at fault, etc.  Just a rehash over and over day after day.

Eventually Job the moderator told her, we can't help you. And she was removed from being able to post.  That was the kindest thing that forum could have done for that woman, to not support her need to just sit and stare at her MLCER, constantly reassuring her he's just not done yet, another year, 3, 5, 7, 10. 

There is a time to move forward.  When, not everything can be explained away by MLC.  When the theory that encompasses everything, begins to hold true for nothing as the goal posts just keep moving. 

There comes a time when we must exist in the world as it is, not as we wish it were. 

Friend or foe changes depending where one is in the process.  But we still have to take the world as it is, not how we wish it were. 

Lp
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if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#21: January 25, 2020, 04:27:41 PM
lp, YES.

What stood out starkly for me in your post was the part about becoming the OW to the OW.

When I understood h was positioning or had already positioned me/us as an affair or excursion from what is now his primary relationship, that was when a tide turned for me.

I presently do not remember what advice I had ever been given, absorbed, or had been trying to follow up to that point. Once I saw and concretely felt like an AP, that was a real and almost entirely involuntary stopping point.

I don’t even know what search terms to look up, or where to look, to find advice on how to be or cope or deal with that.

I do find, day to day, that I don’t want to find that kind of advice. So that has changed my course too: I want to remain Myself, with My true values and value. That’s when I wrote h a long email of hard clear terms, boundaries, and since then I feel like I am *owning* Myself again.

It’s meant that I don’t come to the board in the same way, or for the same reasons. That may or may not be evident in my responses and writings here.

I wouldn’t say that I am GAL, exactly, but for sure, I feel markedly different in my heart and Spirit and Self. No longer bound to what we know here.

That’s a win, I think. I don’t like how it happened and I don’t know what it means for “us” in the long term. I just know I feel better having broken free of whatever was chaining me, and what I was chained to.

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#22: January 25, 2020, 04:37:55 PM
Friend or Foe?

Years ago Divorce Busting had a woman named Magic.  She just kept arguing and going over the same ground over and over, daily updates on what he said, what he did.  And she refused to hear any advice.  Anyone that tried to discuss anything with her was met with attitude and BUT....excuse after excuse why she didn't need to change, why she didn't need to or couldn't make a new life, why he was at fault, etc.  Just a rehash over and over day after day.

Eventually Job the moderator told her, we can't help you. And she was removed from being able to post.  That was the kindest thing that forum could have done for that woman, to not support her need to just sit and stare at her MLCER, constantly reassuring her he's just not done yet, another year, 3, 5, 7, 10. 


Hummm...  Job was wise and a good example for us on HS, too?  Letting Magic continue her usual way would have been enabling of sorts. 
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 04:53:48 PM by Acorn »
My first thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=8164.150

My reconnecting thread:  https://mlcforum.theherosspouse.com/index.php?topic=10524.msg699615#msg699615

Live-in MLCer

Feb 2015: BD. 
Oct 2015: ILYBINILWY.
Apr 2016: Affair discovered
Dec 2017: Seriously reconnecting

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#23: January 25, 2020, 04:59:15 PM
I don't think that our role is to "give advice" nor expect anyone to listen to our point of view.

Sometimes, people have no other place to go.

We cannot control how people will live their lives, nor should we want to.

We do not know all the circumstances of member's lives, I would hope that over time, each member will heal and create a life for themselves that is meaningful and rich.

I would not tell someone they cannot post on HS because they are not following the time table or doing the things that I think they should.

You never know how something that another person writes might impact another poster on their journey.
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:01:29 PM by xyzcf »
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

"You enrich my life and are a source of joy and consolation to me. But if I lose you, I will not, I must not spend the rest of my life in unhappiness."

" The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it". Flannery O'Connor

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/chapter-contents.html

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#24: January 25, 2020, 08:44:40 PM
Friend. Even if I'm just fooling myself, even if he left because I had the audacity to get old, even if he left for some maybe really valid reason I have no idea about and it wasn't MLC, to be able to look at the crazy behavior of someone that didn't used to behave that way and be able to say "OK, maybe it was a Mid life crisis." was at least a way to get my head to stop spinning.

At this point, I can acknowledge that I have no real idea what happened because I've never been told why something I did, not something he ascribed to me that I never did, might have caused what happened. But at the time, I was shell shocked. My marriage wasn't perfect. That's OK, I don't think most are perfect. My parent's marriage wasn't "perfect" but it was perfect for them. I thought I had that, until the precursors of MLC started (gaslighting, to be sure) and then I thought he was just going through a time and he'd work his way through, like EVERYONE ELSE I KNOW. No one I know has a "Happy" life all the time. People die. Kids get sick. Jobs get lost. Cars break down. Crappens and IMO, crappens happens to everyone at one time or another. We work our way through. MLCers and cowards run away.(My opinion)

MLC at least gave me one possibility for what was going on. Because I'd have taken the blame if he had said after 23 years "You scrub the toilet bowl counterclockwise, when I can only tolerate clockwise. That's a deal breaker and it's too  late for you to change and make me happy." And I would have said "You mean if I learn to scrub the toilet clockwise, it still won't be enough? You're INSANE." been ok with it, and moved on. But I had NOTHING to work with. Nothing. Even his initial blow up was accusing me of something I wasn't doing (D had no idea what he was talking about, either)  MLC could explain a man saying "We should never have had the second child." Then going behind my back to make sure that second child we should never have had went to live with the MLCer. How does that make sense in any rational world? The lack of rationality left me scrambling to find an explanation that made sense. Or ANY explanation. Because my Achilles heel is the Unknown. I don't know what to do with the Unknown. It just sits there, being Unknown and it has to be stuffed in the no way to classify it box.

MLC knowledge is "Friend" because having given me a possible reason for the insanity, it allowed me to come to terms with the fact that I might never know if something I am or did or said was something he didn't like. Then I got to figure out what I thought I should be or do or say or think. (And if clockwise might be better than counterclockwise and someone else would allow me to try to change how I scrub the toilet before running screaming in the opposite direction)

To me, knowledge is always a friend. What I do with that knowledge means I could be my own best friend, or my own worst enemy or somewhere in between.

Now if you want to ask me if MLC itself is friend or foe, not the knowledge of MLC, you'd get a different answer. ;)
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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#25: January 25, 2020, 11:37:14 PM
Friend vs. foe... Depends entirely from the perspective I choose to stand/view it (and only I can change my perspective, and often times do knowingly change it to see it from as many sides as possible).

But...I believe we are here (in life) to learn lessons. Once we learn a lesson we move on to the next one. However, if we fail to learn a lesson, we keep finding opportunities to learn it again and again.

Going through MLC/LBS, like all challenges in life, is a lesson. Or maybe more like a school year, as it contains hundreds of lessons to learn.

But in the end...if I do my homework, even partially, I should become a person who is "better".... So IMHO all this will eventually fall into friend category.

Alvin.
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« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:51:35 PM by AlvinTheMaker »
Together - 20½ Years, Married 19 Years
Me: 43, W: 41 (Acts 20-25) - a low energy live-in wallower
BD ("I don't love you"): Feb 2019, 
BD2 ("I don't want to fix this marriage."... D filed May 2020
Kids (at time of BD): G19,G18,G14,G12,S5

*** Every person on the planet is like you - a human being, most likely doing the best they can. Some are just more in control of themself than others ***
*** There are things you control and things you can't control, but what you can control is your attitude towards things you can't control. ***
*** You're not going to master the rest of your life in one day. So relax. Master the present day. Then just keep doing that every day. ***
*** Without trust fear is the only possibility. Place your trust in your own wings. ***

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#26: January 27, 2020, 05:41:32 AM
I don't think that our role is to "give advice" nor expect anyone to listen to our point of view.

Sometimes, people have no other place to go.

We cannot control how people will live their lives, nor should we want to.

We do not know all the circumstances of member's lives, I would hope that over time, each member will heal and create a life for themselves that is meaningful and rich.

I would not tell someone they cannot post on HS because they are not following the time table or doing the things that I think they should.

You never know how something that another person writes might impact another poster on their journey.

Didn't recently we had a discussion about this and how after some discussion in actuality, some members wanted to "move on" but they felt and or knew they were stuck?

Right after BD, I stopped working with a therapist because she wanted me on a timeline to divorce xw and get moving. I would make some progress and then get "frozen" again, but that was mostly due to FOO issues and my own issues with anxiety and so on. It's conceivable that many people are similar situations and if they're stuck, they're stuck. In my case though, I knew the direction I was moving in, but I also knew it was up to me to get there in my own way and time and yes, I eventually did arrive there.

Cutting them off may seem as no longer enabling them, but the reality is they'll most likely join another forum or find someone else to talk to. It's really a matter to me, how much unconditional love and grace you're willing to extend to a person. Simply turning someone loose to another forum or person and saying you're doing them a favor is a bit self serving IMHO. I understand that it may wear some people out to keep offering the same advice over and over and I think that's where it falls to simply not opening the thread if you don't want to read it. Maybe then someone new and fresh to the situation will jump in.

But I also agree with LP here too.. I think that's where the MLC stuff can cause people to get stuck. We tell people to GAL while also telling them to trust the process and we provide them with this "growth chart" sort of and then also tell them to not become stage obsessed. It seems like a lot of contradictory messages and for the LBS, it's easy to ignore the ones about GAL and possibly moving on.

I think it was Thunder who said we all lack a guide for later on, when were out of the BD shock. I think for me, the guide would be to say, yes, you can understand why BD happened and you've had a light to shine on your own issues, but the truth is many MLCers got the way they did because they avoided taking direct ownership and responsibility of their feelings and FOO issues and while they may regret what they've done, it's easier for them to do nothing and avoid their problems, as they've always done, which is how they ended up in the MLC in the first place. 
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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#27: January 27, 2020, 06:04:36 AM
Very good points, gman.
I don't think I would want to 'kick someone off' a forum like HS bc I didn't think they were where they 'should' be or 'could' be. I might disengage from interacting with them or not share some of my POV, sure.  But it seems tremendously unkind and invalidating to me unless they were consistently abusive to other people. Sometimes pain just needs to be heard even if it does feel a bit boring for the listener perhaps.. By that benchmark, most of us could have been kicked out of this community at various times for various views lol. I know I could. Maybe being stuck sometimes is also part of the natural process of healing? Like a kind of rock bottom that shifts us towards a new POV? Maybe we have the right to be stuck lol.

More and more, I think MLC knowledge serves two 'masters'; working out what happened to us and trying to work out what happened to our spouse. They start off being one thing maybe, but gradually become two separate things. The stuck points are maybe when we are still trying to serve two masters with the inherent mixed messages of that. Those 'dual' moments often seem to be the ones that generate a lot of heat here imho e.g. Forgiveness vs Accountability, or Paving The Way vs Boundaries, or Detaching vs Standing. Jmo.

MLC knowledge helped me as part of my slow recovery; it was as useless as a chocolate fireguard for anything to do with my xh's recovery bc that was never in my hands of course. And tbh his explanation for himself about what happened may have nothing to do with MLC at all even if it worked as some kind of useful knowledge for me.   :)
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:13:08 AM by Treasur »
T: 18  M: 12 (at BD) No kids.
H diagnosed with severe depression Oct 15. BD May 16. OW since April 16, maybe earlier. Silent vanisher mostly.
Divorced April 18. XH married ow 6 weeks later.
Healing and growing found here https://littleplotbythesea.wordpress.com

"Option A is not available so I need to kick the s**t out of Option B" Sheryl Sandberg

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#28: January 27, 2020, 09:12:11 AM
Yes, there's the rub.  And it's particularly relevant with the current discussion of business and money and such on other threads on the forum.

One thing not discussed is that there are businesses considerations as well. 

1.  There is a cost in resources as resources are allocated to a person unwilling to follow codes of conduct, to communicate in acceptable and polite manners, and making administrative allowances for them.
2.  There is a cost related to the reputation of the forum as dealing with those people becomes a side show that can eclipse the message of the forum even for a time.
3. There is a cost related to other posters in hurt feelings, frustration, offended feelings and the time and energy wasted that could have been spent on themselves and or others.
4.  There is as well a cost of depression spreading like a contagion.  As well, the attitude, that if one doesn't need to then why should I?
5.  There is a cost and risk that comes with adding something for a fixer to fix. Is that akin to dangling cocaine in front of a coke addict? It fills a need to avoid fixing one's self, the harder task arguably.

The solution of not posting on the thread is double edged as well.  That assumes others will come along and take ones spot offering support when a burned out person stops posting to the person.  Not always true unless one gets an eventual forum full of burned out responders.  Does that help anyone?

Is it the worst alternative that the person goes elsewhere and gets a fresh new batch of people to try and help her or to burn out? Maybe one of them can help the person more effectively.  Or maybe as happened to Magic, she was removed from 2 other forums for the same behavior. 

Conversely, does no one responding help the person? 

Again, the reason for removing Magic was NOT that she failed to meet a goal or anyone's time frame of where she should be or anyone's specific steps.  All those are NOT TRUE.

Magic was not willing to "hear" (NOT obey or listen to) and consider much less implement advice in any way.  She routinely did the opposite of any suggestion.  She became a distraction that used up the time and resources of the forum in a manner that injured the people on the forum and the reputation of the forum. 

Is this a lesson in some people cannot be helped if they are unwilling to help themselves a little bit? 
That not everyone can be fixed if people just keep trying? 
That fixers like any addict will just find a new supply when the old supply is removed?
That addicts have to reach rock bottom before they can be helped and enabling them to continue their behavior is helping to keep them stuck in an unhealthy cycle?

If a moderator position is not to offer advice, then what is it?  (Yes I was a moderator) It's not expected that one will obey all advice, and that's not what was said in the original post.  It is expected in adult conversation and in the HS Code of Conduct, that one hears what is said, and responds as an adult, politely and with decorum. 

It's not about controlling others.  Although a website owner creates rules that in effect control and limit posters behavior on the boards.

Its true that we don't know all the circumstances of others lives but that doesn't give a person carte blanche to behave poorly, harm others, possibly hurt another's business reputation, or use up resources better spent elsewhere.

And back I am to the sentence, there comes a time when we must exist in the world as it is, not how we wish it were.  I too wish everyone would come from this to lead a happy and healthy life but the reality is we can't fix everyone one.

Was divorce Busting wrong to remove Magic?  I don't know honestly.  Job tried everything she could that I could see to help her including spending hours on the phone with her, which she didn't do for anyone else and that caused some hard feelings as well.  But it wasnt enough.  I don't know what eventually happened to Magic, if she ever moved forward or if she is still sitting still waiting for him to come home. 

But I know I didn't want to be her so she was another person that motivated me to move forward instead of spending countless hours thinking rather than doing.

Lp
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if people won’t listen to you, there’s no point in talking to people. If they won’t listen, you’re just banging your head against a wall.

Sadly Ive used up all the time I had allotted to spend banging my head on the wall

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Re: The knowledge of MLC. Friend or Foe?
#29: January 28, 2020, 06:33:51 AM
I don't and didn't have all of the background info on magic. Everything is a case by base basis honestly.

I was just relating it to people that post here and mildly comment on their MLCer and everyone seems to chime in that they just aren't getting it and all of the other noise on here about not standing and moving on. Apparently the two aren't related at all. I'm sure there were plenty of other negative behaviors with Magic that weren't mentioned that also warranted dismissal from the forum.

As I said, I wasn't privy to any of that and it was comparing apples to oranges in this case.

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