[AlvinTheMaker]

Okey.... Here's something that has been going on/off my head for some time, and I might want to get some outside views of those further down the path....

Have any of you noticed a change in the kind of people's you attract and let into your life after BD (compared to married life)?

As personal background/story.... 

As a kid three of my best friends were gals.   Life happened, we drifted apart.

Then became all that teenager-$h!te:  hormones, shyness, being part of group,  being bullied, skin issues, weight issues, all that stuff mixed up my life for years and years (normal teenage I guess). This is the only era in my life when I had only male friendships.  Again, life happened and we all drifted apart.

In late teens I was getting over the worst  and became friends with 2 great gals. Again, life happened and we drifted apart... Years later, when I was already married to W other of them did come looking for me, asking if I was I was available. It was the first time W got jealous of me having female friends.

When going to uni, I became friends with 4 great gals and also 2 (older/mature) lads...   With one of these gals I semi-dated for a while, but it never really took of so went back to being friends (and ultimately she designed and made wedding dress for the W).  Another of these gals was a roomie with my W, and that is how the two of us met.  I'm still good friends (regular contact etc) with few of these folks.

Then me & W got together, and eventually married, and had our first kid...    I did become friends with one female AD (designer) at my first job - but it created strong jealous reaction with W, so I decided voluntarily drop making/having any new female friends.  And that is when my social life kind of "ceased to grow and begun to diminish" (as life once again was pulling all old friendships into different directions).   I had W, I had kids, I had my family, and it felt d all good and enough for me... Over 20 years I did manage (through effort and hard work) to create five additonal male friendships  - all "long distance" (work, life etc. pulling as apart). 

Cue BD...  It was pretty grim awakening to fact that putting all your eggs into single basked with "local friendships"  is risky business. W was rejecting me, and all those friendships I had were long distance.  At times when I would have needed a physical hug or companion, all I had was myself and/or kids. On the upside I always had friends to chat/talk as they live all on different timezones.

But... for the past 8 months or so things have been changing...  Maybe it is regression of some sorts, maybe I'm just once again allowing me to be me.... I've been slowly but surely making new short and long term "local friendships" where ever I go. And yes, most of them have been with opposite sex (just like most of my life). It is not that I would be sexually interested of them  (though I do have eyes and can see that some of them are pretty awesome physically), but "we just connect".   The harsh and undeniable bottom line is that over these past 12 months I've made more new friends than during my whole marriage. 

The short term friendships... IDK. Maybe they are more of some kind of "therapy", as I've been somewhat open about my life sitch especially with people who I am unlikely to meet again/long term...  That woman I met in my summer vacation during support group meeting.  The "perfect10" gal I met on my winter holiday... Those were pretty magical examples of how well two  emotionally mature people can connect on single night when not being afraid to share their vulnerability  (and yes, the summer vacation gal did check on me later to see if I was "available" so being this open comes with certain risks)....  With many other's  it's been just random chatter, for example about lifestyle and interests. These have usually just died off pretty quickly, lasting no longer than week or two.

Casual friendships... well, they just are, people you see every now and then, part of enviroment... talk about kids, talk about local stuff, talko about work, very little any genuinely personal stuff... But they do add up some juice to life.

But some of these new friendships have begun to grow and blossom, and they are  definitely beginning to move beyond "casual friends" zone - meaning sharing more intimate stuff about our lifes, getting to know each other inside out...   For example some time ago a gal from my local shop (divorced, single mom of teenager) asked me to become FB friends with her (we have chatted daily for about year, sometimes short, sometimes long and deep). FB request does not sound much, but it's taken our friendship to all new level.  For example before this I did not know her doing acting and modeling (she surely got the looks for the job) - and all of a sudden I'm inside her ring of friends where I get to see more of private body parts than most single/married men (still nothing sexual with.  For her it's a hobby/job,  I can see the art in it and adore/respect that).  And I've learned that she's been through the LBS $h!te (I knew we share same philosophy that "forever should mean forever", but I did know the steps of rage/anger/fury she went through before becoming the person she is present)....   And with another gal (happily married, about year older than me, no kids)  we've very much reached the point of "let's fool around, let's support each other in everyday challenges"  (still laughing at the time she got bit tempered with me being cheesy with her, throwing me with bag of chips, becoming apologic that she went over some invisible border.  Likely that was the point when we started moving beyond casual friends)... And... 

Where  I'm going with this post....

For starters I'm interested in knowing has the (new) people you attract  & let into your lfe changed  from pre-BD life?  And has it been good/bad experience for you...   I know that because of marriage I "changed" the person I was (to keep W happier and not jealous), and I paid a somewhat heavy price from that decision through lack of of local friends at time when I would have needed them. But it was my decision, I did it voluntarily (as hindsight I acknowledge I likely should have challenged her to realize she has got my heart regardless of people I keep as friends).

And yes, I cannot help thinking whether or not this will influence W if we ever get into reconcilation/rebuilding step....   I know that for some ladies it is hard if their partner does have female frieds.  But I'm pretty certain that I would no longer be willing to do such sacrifice: not voluntarily nor if asked/requested.  I acknowledge it is all my responsibility to take care and honor the borders of our marriage, and she should be able to trust me and my judgement (I still do have "eyes" just for her")...  AFAIK she's not much aware of most of my new friends, since we don't talk /share this kind of stuff anymore (just two roomies sharing a house/kids, trying to figure out what lies ahead).  And right now I don't even think she necessarily needs to know. She's keeping some parts of her life hidden from me, so I'm just doing the same.... If we reconnect, then yes, this is one of those issues that needs to approached and agreed.   

And yes... I'd be interested in knowing how good women are at judging whether or not a man is "after them" in romantic/sexual sense.  The more I have been thinking about this, the more I do feel that there's some invisible sticker on my back that says "gals, this guy is all ok to become friends with" (because I am not the one making the initial steps for friendships - either the gals approach me, or then they sort of happen "organically" over time) .....   All in all I do find the whole "lads cannot have gals as friends / gals  cannot have lads as friends" thinking very narrow minded.   We're all people, and it includes a whole lot more than physical presence.  Maybe it shows outside, maybe not. IDK...    All I know is that I can be somewhat blind to hitting attemps (yes, as hindsight I can say I have missed occasional cues to engage into something more intimate/romantic).

Anyway... I knew I wrote a lot, but I hope this will turn into "interesting" discussion.

Alvin.

PS. I acknowledge some might not like me using term 'gal' for adult woman. For me it has got same value/effect as writing a female or woman. It is bit of the same as calling guys/men as 'lads'. Just part of language I use - if you don't like, please don't blame me. 

[OffRoad]

A lot of people simply cannot have a close friendship with a member of the opposite sex without eventually having some romantic feelings for them. So while one person thinks "just friends", the other does not but will quash their feelings often hoping that the relationship might grow.

I get along better with men. It's because my likes and hobbies are often more male slanted, and most of the women I meet are either 2 dimensional, or their hobby is watching "Desperate Housewives" so I can't manage a lengthy conversation. (There are exceptions, I just have more male friends than female). Most of my male friends are attached. I have met their wives and they know, nothing to see here. This does not mean that for some of them, if they were not married,  they wouldn't jump at the chance to take me out. Some men telegraph that plainly, without being creepy. Some men are just creepy, too.

I do find I have little patience for people who create their own toxicity. I used to be a really good listener, to everyone. No more. One sided friendships have faded away. I have fewer friendships, but better ones. I don't have time for a lot of people anyway.

I will say, for me, men who mostly have female friends red flag me unless I know why they are friends. Art in common? Fine. 5ks? Ok. You both like working on cars? Fine by me. You spend your time together watching reruns of Desperate Housewives? This could be an issue. Poking, touching, rubbing, inside jokes you won't explain to others? Just not ok if you are in a committed relationship, and still over the line for ME in a casual dating environment (others mileage may vary)

The reason why I am wary is because the average man with a "harem" of woman is just keeping them all for his choosing whenever he feels like it (again, there are exceptions) so you have to guage each person based on their boundaries with their opposite sex friends.

Your W cheated on you. She likely will assume you will cheat on her if women are around should you get back together. My 2 cents.

[Ready2Transform]

I'm a lot like Offroad and you, too. Most of my best friends have been male, and most of who I hang out with now IRL are male. I've made the most female friends I've had in a long time by being an LBS! And I treasure those friendships. But I am actually very relieved when there is clarity between guy friends and I that we're just friends. I'm mindful of when and how I contact my married male friends (far more after MLC entered my life than I would have been before), and I try to become friends with their wives, too, if only to make sure they know I'm not after their husbands. Middle aged single women with a lot of cats are our own red flags. 

I'm no longer on any sort of path to want to reconcile, but I wouldn't stress on trying to structure friendships around that. If you have a *new* relationship that needs to heal from MLC, accepting the new parts of each other (including friendships) would need to be part of that. I agree with OR too that your W would project onto you her actions, at least while in replay. But likely she's going to project anyway, so you can't frame your whole life trying to manipulate how she sees things. My .02.

[Treasur]

I think it is more about ones own attitude, how you see someone. If they are a person who happens to be male or female. I like men and have always had some close male friends in my inner circle. But I don't look at them as being male, just my friend who happens to be male. I have had male friends, particularly when I was younger, who I knew saw me as both a friend and a woman they liked, but bc I just saw them as a friend person, I never sent out a signal that would encourage that. And I have never had a wife or girlfriend who was uncomfortable with that bc I am openly respectful of the boundaries of their relationship. I don't discuss things that would cross that. Tbh when I am talking with my male friends, I don't notice things about their physical appearance in the way you described Alvin....like describing them as a 10....it is just the eyes of my friend.

It would not concern me if my h had female friends - and he did have a couple - i was not jealous bc I knew he saw them in the same way. I don't think my h was jealous of my male friends either for the same reason. What changed in my h....and why a co-worker became an EA I suspect...is that he started talking to them about things he should have been talking to me about and didn't. Boundaries. There are some men who find close friendship with other men difficult. Who only feel safe or affirmed talking to women, either their wives or other women. My h was healthier when he had a few close male friends.....men who he trusted, who he did not feel in competition with, when there was no power imbalance. As he began to unravel, he withdrew from these friendships as well as from me and replaced them with a couple of young female coworkers.....and obviously he began to see them as women as well as friends. I do see men who do not have any intimate male friendships as being more vulnerable to this, I think, perhaps bc there is just an imbalance in it....a tiny red flag maybe.

So I don't think the answer to the question is in how others see us, it is much more about how we see them. If you say a woman is a friend but you are also very aware of her 'womanness', of how she looks, of her appeal as a woman, then I would say that tells you something about the eyes you are using.

And I am sure that OR is right bc people project. Especially people who feel guilty. If someone has had an EA or PA, it is easy for them to imagine what that feels like bc they did it. So, also easier for them to imagine that you could do the same. If your relationship with your w is fragile right now, it is probably wiser to assume that this is how she might see any new female friendships you form. And to be honest with yourself too about your own intentions and needs. About your own attitudes to male and female, and how you experience them differently.

[AlvinTheMaker]

A lot of people simply cannot have a close friendship with a member of the opposite sex without eventually having some romantic feelings for them.

Damn.... But this does explain some things (which I never really put into consideration before this whole thing)... For me the sex question kind of vanishes out when friendship takes off, even if I'd see private body parts (and I do have more than few times, it's no big deal,just their body etc)... The attraction,if any, for me comes somewhat instantly at very early on (say first few minutes) when seeing a person for the first time,  and at that point I know where my responsibility/commitment are and can easily back off. Maybe it's just me, maybe a more widespread guy thing (and I know without any of you females telling, we guys are simple creatures attracted at  by visual shell first, then the inner works).

I get along better with men. It's because my likes and hobbies are often more male slanted, and most of the women I meet are either 2 dimensional

Switch sexes and you just described me,LoL.

This does not mean that for some of them, if they were not married,  they wouldn't jump at the chance to take me out. Some men telegraph that plainly, without being creepy. Some men are just creepy, too.

I did experiment shortly with this very early in my life (late teens, before W).... It simply did not work, it was creepy for me (bit like entry level to limbo where you dont know which way is which) and likely it was creepy for my then friends... So I  leaned to keep friends as friends, and then there's the 'W/dating class' (one person at a time). Not mixing these two. Never.

I will say, for me, men who mostly have female friends red flag me unless I know why they are friends.

This is one of those reasons why I did choose to "isolate myself" early in in the marriage...sometimes there's just no single factor why I click with a person, but it changes and grows, and it becomes very hard work to convince another person consistently... And having gone through all this emotional growth, I can see such behaviour would be me fixing/enabling their emotional insecurity....  For me the fact I've said "forever yours" should be all it takes, and that is what I'm looking from the future (even at risk of spending rest of life single/divorced)...but yeh, $h!te happens and not all believe in "forever yours", sigh.

Your W cheated on you. She likely will assume you will cheat on her if women are around should you get back together. My 2 cents.

Ouch (even when acknowledging it as personal opinion of person I value(... So that has the potential to be another hurdle on the road (always remembering/repeating we all are samples of one).

Thanks OR

Alvin.

[AlvinTheMaker]

I'm mindful of when and how I contact my married male friends (far more after MLC entered my life than I would have been before), and I try to become friends with their wives, too, if only to make sure they know I'm not after their husbands.

Yep, I think I am reaching the bolded part.... In the end their wellbeing is in in my interests as well.

Middle aged single women with a lot of cats are our own red flags. 

Hahahah... I do have two new friends matching the formula... Zero physical attraction on my side...

But likely she's going to project anyway, so you can't frame your whole life trying to manipulate how she sees things. My .02.

Yep, I agree (for better or worse)..

Alvin.

[AlvinTheMaker]

I think it is more about ones own attitude, how you see someone.

Agree 110%.

Tbh when I am talking with my male friends, I don't notice things about their physical appearance in the way you described Alvin....like describing them as a 10....it is just the eyes of my friend.

I can see them through both lenses if desired (and it can come handy when they ask for opinion on clothing etc)... But for me the key is in how I relate to them.... They're mates, nothing sexual with it. They can have drop dead corgeous body that I can see, but it is kind of like seeing their "mechanics/technical details" and being happy they've got the physics and looks I can only dream off.. Zero ignition/spark on my side though (and hopefully nothing from theirs).... Like I wrote before, the sparks, at least from my side are somewhat instant thing when I meet a person. Not saying it would be absolutely impossible, but that would be something all new in my life  (so very very unlikely).

What changed in my h....and why a co-worker became an EA I suspect...is that he started talking to them about things he should have been talking to me about and didn't.

I'll sign this any day/time....

And to be honest with yourself too about your own intentions and needs. About your own attitudes to male and female, and how you experience them differently.

In middle of that process....

Alvin.

[OffRoad]

Something to consider. For YOU, the fact that you have said "Forever yours" should be all that it takes. For someone like me, where XH'S answer to the question "Will you promise to love,  honor and cherish till death do you part." was "Always.", the words Forever Yours and Always mean little to nothing ATM. It may never mean anything again.  Actions will be what matters. So when considering if female friends will be an issue, consider your actions. If a man breaks a promise with his significant other to do something with or help a female friend (emergencies are exceptions), imo that would be a poor action.  Calling another woman a 10 in front of your significant other would be rude. Some of it is just minding your manners. Most of it is managing your social interactions and staying within sociatal  boundaries.

You have to consider the person when trying to determine if opposite sex friends might be an issue. And then determine if opposite sex friends are more important than that person. The answer could be yes.  JMO.

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I like women. I am more comfortable spending time with women than I am spending time with other men. I don't know why and it doesn't matter. It's just the way that I am. Probably has something to do with my childhood and my temperament. Even my doctor and my dentist are women.

The entire time my wife and I were a couple I avoided having female friends and I avoided putting myself into situations other than at work where I might have to spend time with women other than my wife.

For most of that time I worried that wanting to enjoy the company of other women, even in a platonic sense, meant that I didn't love my wife as much as I should have.

Now I realize that I loved my wife so much that I denied my natural preference for the company of women for almost 40 years.

I continue to avoid putting myself into situations other than at work where I might be spending time with other women because I'm standing and I worry that enjoying the company of another woman might turn into a desire for something more. Especially given my present situation.

This is why I spend most of my time with my family or alone. I'm a pretty messed up dude.

Maybe I should add that I have one sister and 3 brothers but I really didn't know my sister. She's 10 years older than me and I don't have any memories of her living at home with us. I had very little contact with females, including my mother, until I started dating in my mid-teens and I only had a few girlfriends before I met my wife.