[MyBrainIsBroken]

A different viewpoint from an immunologist who did post doctoral work at Walter Reed Army Medical Center.

https://aapsonline.org/cornoavirus-covid-19-public-health-apocalypse-or-panic-hoax-and-anti-american/?fbclid=IwAR2fWVQQCmPGA3mqiF68Ne-RZo3k4B8Hza4ntDRMHHOz4CbQRiIaPD8K4ds

[marvin4242]

MBIB: that article is a deeply concerning and uncaring viewpoint. The conclusions that “its not a big deal to let it run wild” has already been disproven in Italy and Spain as compared to S Korea, China and Germany which have much lower death rates. The facts of the disease and epidemiology are correct, but then that is extended to an argument that says let the old and vulnerable die in order to minimize economic damage. To me this is where the crux of so much human suffering and cruelty lies: the question of what do we value most in our societies.

If we value optimal economic well being and wealth then the article is correct. If we value well being of people then it is completely off the mark. We have to ask ourselves what is the point of money and wealth? Up to a point it is a direct correlation to safety, well being, food, shelter, and health. No one in the US living anywhere near minimum wage has achieved that. That number on the average for a family is somewhere around $70-80K mark (varies widely by region). So what is point of money and wealth after that? To accumulate possessions? To get better things? Psychologist who study measures of happiness show that happiness ratings increase up to around that point (for obviously reasons that safety and shelter are important to well being) but flatten out after that and do not rise significantly in the long term.

What I believe Covid-19 is showing about the US is how threadbare our social system has become. Vast majority of people live paycheck to paycheck and any disruption is catastrophic. We have minimal or non existent social support systems, and they are completely different state by state so we have no uniformity. Our healthcare system is patchwork of various non coordinate networks that are showing their weakness compared to a centralized one. And a lot of people still can’t afford quality healthcare. So in a way for the non vulnerable the damage is coming from the economic devastation. That is not an epidemiological problem, that is a societal problem.

You have to ask yourself if we are the “strongest,” “richest,” “the best” what does that mean. Shouldn’t the strongest society in the world easily withstand the stress of a weak pandemic virus? We definitely have the wealth and resources to support our citizens while we make sure people don’t die needlessly until we carefully develop herd immunity. We have to be willing and able to have a fair and functional society. We are able, but it seems we are not fully willing.

What does that say about us? Societies and groups have lived through wars with massive devastation and have made decisions for the greater good. In a way this virus is something that is not in that scale. Yet some are arguing we should sacrifice lives in order to protect economic well being. The correct answer is to use our vast wealth to support and help the economically vulnerable, save as many lives as we can until we develop herd immunity. That is happening in countries in Europe and UK. If we do we can look back afterwards and feel like as human beings we were stronger as a group rather than standing as individuals.

Imagine if we lived in a society where most people could afford to save three to six months of their expenses from their income. The economic devastation that is happening to most people who live paycheck to paycheck would not happen.

[Nerissa]

The article is quite odd.  He writes:   “Italy has a third world medical system with good pasta, red wine and gelato”   

He also says Italians smoke and drink, but then goes on to say Italy has a higher  number of elderly People .  That’s true - Italians have a life expectancy of 83 while Americans live, on average, until 78.

And then he spends the last part railing against closure of church services.

Oh my.

In any case, surely herd immunity is what is being achieved everywhere  by default until a vaccine is found?  The World is just trying to slow it down in order to cope as best they can.

Thanks for posting different viewpoints Though Brain.

[Milly]

Having read the article, I feel I must stand up for my country.

My view is that the article was written by a badly informed person. I suspect also that the author's interest in herd community is simply because he does have money and doesn't want to lose it.

I will only refer to his statements about Italy:

First and foremost, it does not have a third world medical care system.

There is a lot more to Italy than its wonderful pasta and gelato. I suspect the author has never been here or he would know.

He claims that northern Italy has the largest number of Chinese in Europe. This is incorrect. The UK and France have more than Italy.

He insinuates that Northern Italy, with its largest number of Chinese in Europe, is the cause of the spread of the virus in Italy.

It is now believed here (through scientific research) that the virus entered Italy through two paths simultaneously: through a Chinese person arriving from China and through an Italian who got it in another European country, probably Germany. It was then spread in Italy by Italians.

In fact, the second largest Chinese population of Italy is in Tuscany, where I live. We have the largest Chinese community (as in China town) in Italy, and they have not had one case of coronavirus. We have been watching them intently. What the Chinese did was to self isolate long before it became mandatory. They also have a habit of wearing masks any way and did so right away. They kept their children out of school before the schools closed here and also kept their elderly at home.

The author claims we are at risk because we are a country of smokers and drinkers. I wonder where he gets his information from. Smoking: Italians do smoke more than Americans, but as much as many other European countries. It doesn't seem to stop them from aging more than any one else. Maybe their health care manages to take care of them?

Drinking in Italy is very mild, being mainly wine and beer drinking. We are one of the countries that consumes the least. We do not have problems with binge drinking. We drink with food.

My impression of this author is that he sounds closed minded and prejudice. Possibly, he has never ventured out of his own country. If his information on Italy is anything to go by, there's a big chance that his other information is unreliable, too. He is the kind of person who likes to joke about other cultures because he presumes that he is safe, that nobody from that other culture is going to read what he's writing. He makes statements as if they are facts. When someone does that there is a danger that his words can be taken as truths and these prejudicial claims are believed. And he doesn't just insult Italy.

I see lots of red flags here.

[Thunder]

Milly I agree with everything you said.  I liked some of what he said, but not about Italy.
I'd like to know where he got his information from.   

Do you know Italy is now ranted the number two healthiest country?  Spain was first this year.

According the the Business Insider first place was just out of reach for Italy in this year's ranking with the Mediterranean nation well known for its great weather, plentiful natural wonders, and some of the world's best, and seemingly healthiest, food.

Research has shown that Mediterranean diets are among the world's healthiest and Italy maintaining a high life expectancy as well as boasting a so-called "Blue Zone" for high quality of life in Sardinia. 

Also they don't drink or smoke anymore than a lot of other places.  That's hogwash!

[xyzcf]

I skimmed the article last night and found it deeply disturbing.

I will continue to listen to the experts around the world who are basing the measures of trying to keep the number of serious cases to a manageable amount, so that our front line workers and the supplies we have can be used to try and save as many lives as possible.

I find that the research of what worked in previous pandemics like the Spanish flu, and implementing those measures makes a great deal of common sense.

The most comforting words I hear is "this will come to an end" and "it will not last forever".

As for his criticism of closing the Catholic Church...he is misguided with his criticism of American Bishops not having enough "faith" as it was Pope Francis himself, the leader of the Catholic church in the entire world who has implemented that churches  not hold masses during this time. Previous times in history, it has clearly been shown that cities that closed churches had lower mortality rates.

For indeed, and I am personally very serious about my faith, my prayers do not need to be said in a building.

Although different ideas are "interesting"...I was upset by reading this article.....I'm having trouble anyway and yesterday was a bad day for me. 

[MyBrainIsBroken]

I apologize to those who were offended by the article. That wasn't my intention. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I'm afraid I didn't even see the potential. I guess I can be a bit clueless sometimes.

April 4th in NY new hospital admissions dropped to 574, hospital discharges increased to 1709, ICU admissions were 250 after running between 300 and 400 for the past week. The numbers see to be heading in the right direction.

NY state unemployment claims are 2700% higher than last year at this time with hundreds of thousands of claims filed last week. Our local hardware store announced yesterday that they are closing indefinitely because one of their employees had contact with somebody who tested positive for Covid 19. One of our local restaurants has also closed with no idea whether they will reopen.

One of the newly unemployed is my granddaughter who is worried that she won't have the money to return to nursing school this fall now that she has lost her part time job. Many of her friends have similar concerns.

Registration for fall classes begins a week from tomorrow. Our administration is afraid we're going to see a significant drop in enrollment. A lot of our students come from low income families.

[Thunder]

MB,

No problem.  I like reading different thoughts on this virus, even if I don't always agree with them.  Gets your brain working. 

I didn't disagree with everything he said.

Thanks for the updates!

[MyBrainIsBroken]

It looks like I'm not the only one who noticed.

17 min ago
Deaths over past few days dropping "for the first time" in New York, governor says

The number of deaths over the past few days has been dropping “for the first time," New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said today during a press conference.

The significance of that is “too early to tell” he added.

Cuomo added that ICU admissions are also down, daily intubations are down “slightly” and the hospital discharge rate is “way up” and that’s “great news.”

He said there is a "shift to Long Island" adding "upstate New York is basically flat… as Long Island grows the percentage of cases in NYC has reduced."

The total number of intubations are down across the state, Cuomo said.

As of April 4, there were about 316 people intubated in the hospital, that number is down from 351 reported the day before.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-04-05-20/index.html

[OffRoad]

I liked the article, MBIB. He had a lot of very good points that sadly were negated when he used his own opinions mixed in with facts. There is no need to apologize for presenting differing views.

Does it strike anyone odd that Spain and Italy, two of the "healthiest" countries were some of the hardest hit? Why is that do you suppose? I wonder if being so healthy means people don't usually get sick  therefore no herd immunity? Or that they weren't prepared for being not healthy. That's was just a thought.

Marvin said: "If we value optimal economic well being and wealth then the article is correct. If we value well being of people then it is completely off the mark." I don't understand the statement " If we value well being of people then it is completely off the mark"  I think this depends on how one defines the well being of people. To me, the well being of people is not simply keeping them from getting a disease that might be nothing more than like a common cold, or might very well kill them. The death tolls from people dying driving a car ( on average 3,700 people lose their lives every day on the roads. https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/ ) or the flu(estimates between 29,000 and 59,000 by mid March this year) https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year are not inconsiderable, and no one panics about those every year.  The well being of people encompasses not only their health, but their quality of life. Quality of life can be freedom to do as they choose, the ability to support their family, satisfaction in the work they do, being able to keep a roof over their head,  contact, even if six feet away, with other human beings, getting out into the sunshine, or out of the city and into the country even six feet away from people. Do you know despite the fact that I have been in non contact with any human being for three weeks, I'm not allowed to take a drive in my own car by my own self unless I am going to a germ laden store for supplies? Driving alone on a backroad is a sanity saver for me. How does this make sense or give me "well being"?

The people who have had Covid 19 and have recovered are now immune. They could live their lives in a normal fashion, help other people,  make money, go to jobs or replace workers in essential jobs who fear for their own safety because they have not had Covid 19, volunteer, be productive members of society. Except they can't because no one has thought that far ahead.

What IS the well being of people? It's not just health.