[Songanddance]

Thanks all.

As I thought would actually happen: 
S did not go to his friends. When he woke up in the morning - he was contrite and really sad.  Covid has played havoc with all of us undoubtedly but S has become more and more of a hermit as most of his single friends live so far away and he cannot get a job so the idea of a 250+mile drive seemed "scary" for him.  I get it. 
I am almost the same and the idea of getting in the car even to see my wonderful sister(my rock) becomes tortuous.

As also predicted the clinger returned home last night.  He crept into the lounge and asked if it was ok for him to pick up some food.  I said yes.  He stood there for about 5 mins - his body language showing fear, anxiety and sadness too.
I had just cooked a meat pizza and there was half of it left (which I knew I wasn't going to eat and S is veggie so neither was he) . H looked at it, I chuckled and said - yes you can have that or the bin will.

He then asked how the jobs were going to be done on the house as he couldn't be here if S was feeling so angry. 

I said - "They still can.  You are just to keep your distance from S and when he vents, leave him to it. He was angry that the distribution company for his music had suddenly gone quiet on him and there was no way for him to contact them so he could lose his royalties.  He was venting which means you listen and offer no advice or solution etc...."
H - "I was trying to help him"
Me - "This is where you need to listen and I mean listen to what I am saying.  S doesn't want your help.  He is angry at you that much is sure and you should also understand that he cannot respect any advice you give.  That is not what he wants.  He also wants to vent and I have learned to listen to him properly."
H - "But sometimes I have seen you upset when he's vented"  (Interesting - he noticed)
Me " Yes but I am not upset at him venting- I am upset for him. Frustrated for him.  It is tiring having him vent but I am his safe place - he will not harm me.  Please don't engage with him when he vents and if he vents in your presence then either stay silent or leave quietly"

H went very quiet and nodded.  He ate the remainder of the pizza and then asked about all the visits from estate agents I'd had today.  After a couple of hours I retired to bed - needed space and was suddenly very very tired.

I do think that S launching all his anger on H had some effect. S challenged H over his cheating etc and I think some of it hit home.  I cannot be certain that it did but some of it must have settled in H's conflicted brain - hence his "pathetic" (in the true sense not the mocking sense of the word) stance and attitude last night.

I have no sympathy or empathy for either of them and spent much of yesterday reflecting on me but without the pity party.

Is this what I want - not really but I have said my say for now.  It is a fine line to tread but I am setting the fine line not them. It's their turn to walk on eggshells not mine.

[forthetrees]

There is a book The Dance of Anger that might help them break the cycle. It is by Harriet Lerner.

[Milly]

Song, just wanted to say that I'm following and I'm very sorry for the anger between your S and H and for the loss of your beloved doggie.

Regarding your S and the big fight, at least he got all his thoughts off his chest, whether his dad takes any of it in or not. I feel for all our kids who had their childhoods bombed by MLC. I really wish for your S to achieve the success he clearly deserves. Big congratulations to him for having written some songs, and for having found a distributor. This is already an incredible achievement. This Covid year has put all our kids' hopes on hold. For them it's incredibly frustrating as they want to get on with their lives and their dreams. You are so good to just lend him your ear, which I do believe is all he needs. He doesn't need advice, like you told your H, he just needs to vent.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do about the house.

[Songanddance]

I wonder if your son and H should have been in some sort of counselling over the past several years and this may have not escalated to this

Yes they were. H went to a counsellor about 2 yrs into his MLC and learned that "none of this was his fault and that if he felt the need to break free then that was the right thing to do."  Typical response from counsellors that don't get MLC and obviously/naturally respond based upon the information that they are given.  So it just fed his sense of entitlement

S saw a therapist for 18 months (it cost me in excess of a few thousand pounds)  It became clear that this T also had an inflated ego - in that he kept telling S that he knew what was right for him and that it would take several years of his therapy to fix H's anger.  He also "diagnosed" S as a psychopath and that he was clearly Bipolar and the depression was something that would go in time - this is what he told me when I rang up to ask whether it was worth continuing as S was gaining very little.
He wasn't interested in helping S with his addiction to cannabis (even though his website stated that he had 100% record of getting people off drugs)  He also insisted on 2 hr sessions and to suit him as he spent two weeks a month abroad.   
I stopped the visits when he rang me and started telling me what I needed to do as a mother.   I don't think he was a charlatan and had clearly had some success with other people but he wanted to take control of S and my alarm bells rang loud and clear.

In fact it is enormously difficult here in the UK for young men with depression to be taken seriously.  S found one local doctor within our practice who did and was really interested in helping him but then she moved away and whenever S has tried to talk to the doctors - one of them told him that the only thing he needed to do was more medication.    Interestingly my D who also has depression can get immediate support from doctors and she has been fast tracked to the full counselling therapy system on the NHS  but she has never contemplated suicide.  S has many times and he has been told to just take the tablets ( and one of the tablet side effects are psychotic thoughts and suicidal tendencies)  - Young men are so ignored here and it's really worrying.

One of S's friends went into a 3 months locked down rehab following a drink/drug/ nervous breakdown.  He is an intelligent, eloquent young man who has a young daughter.  He has been out of rehab for 6 months now and works as a mentor to other young men who are committed to the centre.  He has been enormously helpful to my son but the challenge is he has no relationship with his father either. 

Very very sad - Did I mention that I hate MLC......

[Treasur]

Wonder if you have come across these folks? https://youngminds.org.uk/find-help/for-parents/

[Seahorse]

S&D -
Just supporting your plight as my S23 also has mental issues with anger and cannabis addiction, and is unwilling to medicate or therapy.  Here, I feel young men also are taken less seriously than women and often get into legal trouble because nobody was willing to figure out the problems and help them.

Wishing you much peace during this season, and continuing to follow.

[Songanddance]

Update

I have had estate agents round to value the property. I have fixed a date for when the house should go on the market and I have put in place plans to finish off the house to get it sale ready.

The prices I was given by the agents were fairly in line with what I had hoped and H seemed somewhat buoyed by it all and not negative.

He has done a lot of cycling towards  and has become more helpful around the house in little ways.  He clears up after dinner and he volunteers to stack and put the dishwasher on. He has fixed lots of little things with no moans or grumbles or blaming the magical "someone".

He has started the major jobs outside that need doing before sale.

He has taken me seriously and I don't know if the cycling towards is because he doesn't want to sell but will comply to keep me happy or whether he truly wants out of the house too. It is getting more and more expensive to live in and thanks to Covid our joint incomes have dropped.

He is much calmer - not so quick to judge or condemn and he is beginning to show a little more compassion.

S is calmer - in fact he has been working really hard on his music and building his music profile increasing followers etc...  He also has had an amazing opportunity which  I cannot divulge but suffice to say that a high profile US musician happened to hear S's songs on tic toc and then went to S's instagram and has reached out to S with a great suggestion and offer. 

The two together is still not a feasible option but at least the house is calm and I am on top of it all now.

On a personal note, I have started seeing (via zoom) my therapist again.  I realised that I was stuck in an emotional and intellectual plateau so messaged her and I have seen her three times since November.  It's been helpful and I have begun to shift my thinking again in a more upward way.

I know that what I am about to say is not what newbies or those who are still wanting their marriage back wants to hear but I  must say this.

What you learn about the gift of time from MLC is that you begin to discover you - yourself. So often we get buried in the range of roles we take on ; wife/mother/worker/ sister/aunt/etc..... that we lose our core.
I'm not talking about the little girl inside either - that's a whole other discussion. 

I'm talking about the authentic you. The one who wants to believe that there is so much more to live and to do in our lives.

I'm talking about listening to yourself. Listen to your dreams, your hopes, your beliefs. When you do you will begin to realise that you have limited yourself because you thought you should so that everyone else was happy.

Everyone else will be truly happy when you are happy and content at your core. 

I'm also not saying throw caution to the wind and decide to backpack around the world (unless of course you really want to).

Listen to what you say to yourself. Listen to your self talk and sometimes just changing your language from "should/must/could/but/ impossible" to something with greater possibility thinking such as " can/and/possible/why not?" then you will begin to find you.

I know that moving house and probably separating from H (it's pretty inevitable)  will be extremely hard. All my dreams when we bought this place have gone up in smoke - thanks to MLC. However I have been listening to myself. I know that I have opportunities that are yet to show themselves and this time I will know to do the right thing for me with every single one of them.

If H wants to work towards a true marriage - that will be another story.  I don't take any BS from him and he knows he is free to leave.
For now we are treating each other with respect and care - as if we were old friends and that is enough for me.

[Curiosity]

Thanks for this update... the absolute best we can hope for through this process is that we can find calm, find healing, and find our true selves. It’s funny because when most of us come here, the absolute best outcome is all about reconciliation. But the truth is so much more personal than that.

It seems like you and your family have all found some level of calm and of healing during this process. Hopefully your h is also finding his true self. But whatever his journey brings him, it certainly seems as though your journey has been a fruitful one, and ultimately that is what matters most.

[Mitzpah]

Listen to what you say to yourself. Listen to your self talk and sometimes just changing your language from "should/must/could/but/ impossible" to something with greater possibility thinking such as " can/and/possible/why not?" then you will begin to find you.

I know that moving house and probably separating from H (it's pretty inevitable)  will be extremely hard. All my dreams when we bought this place have gone up in smoke - thanks to MLC. However I have been listening to myself. I know that I have opportunities that are yet to show themselves and this time I will know to do the right thing for me with every single one of them.

If H wants to work towards a true marriage - that will be another story.  I don't take any BS from him and he knows he is free to leave.
For now we are treating each other with respect and care - as if we were old friends and that is enough for me.

Songanddance,

You have given me something to reflect on... I find that my communication with my h. is like that, we are just old friends and we happen to have children between us.

During my bout with covid, I had a friend staying with me, an old friend, there is no intimacy, no shared dreams, just a friendly camaraderie, shared memories, he knows my family, I know his,

He's gone now, I don't particularly miss him, he is just a message away, but there is no interdependence, emotionally speaking.

My h. is a bit like that now, he is a message away, however, he is not available to me due to his other relationship. I can speak to him, but his answer will always be on his timetable, to put me in my place.

On the other hand, there are situations with the kids, that we are totally attuned... I think it funny that I told him yesterday that our "grandson" (a french bulldog) was out boating in our favorite place and I sent him a picture to illustrate it. He didn't know that our son was there, and he thought it was a joke, so we had a conversation about what he was doing and the fact that the dog had gone with him. These times he seems quite normal and engaged, receptive to our inside jokes...

So, yes, like you - I know what I want, but I also know that he can join me or not. I am set on living my best life even if I have to give up my house, bury the dreams we had and carry on as God wills me.

[Songanddance]

And so H and I had a brief R talk.

We were talking about the equity in the sale of the house and as I had done all the sums H was asking what he might be able to get from his part.  He has always agreed that I should have a bigger share because I was the one dumped on and I will need a home that could support the children and family if ever that was needed.

We talked figures and he said " Didn't think that we'd be in this situation"

Me " I didn't think so too but we are in this situation because you've said you want out."

H - no response other than a nod.

So he still wants out. This got me thinking.  RCR has always said and told me in the early days of her coaching me that almost all clingers have to leave.  H has never left. 
He has paid the mortgage faithfully since I stopped teaching but this has perhaps kept him in an entitlement phase of thinking.

I paid the mortgage for nearly 30 years (in fact most of the bills and housekeeping came out of my salary whilst he built his business - he paid a quarter of them....more fool me)

He is also quite clearly very tired physically and emotionally - his pension isn't great and he is now mid 60s with a high blood pressure and an increasingly bad back (crushed nerves) which cannot be operated on.

I realised therefore that he still has to leave. He still has to find  his own way. He's done the diversions and they didn't work so he believes he has to leave to be on his own.

Interesting how even after nearly 8 years he is possibly still running albeit a lot slower this time and I'm ok whatever happens.