[Thunder]

I thought the same thing, OP.

Thank you Marvin, very helpful.

[marvin4242]

OP: sorry I didn't realize I could attach a PDF in PM here, my bad!

[marvin4242]

An interesting study in a camp In Georgia where 2/3 of the students and staff tested positive after reopening. Median age of kids was 12, which may indicate even younger kids can transmit the virus even if they are not getting sick. There are caveats as this is one location in Georgia where the virus was already spiking, and the data is incomplete in that they did not have full tracing and did not have full data tracking how well social distancing and mask rules were adhered to. Still points to caution about reopening schools, specially in areas where the virus is already spiking.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/07/31/georgia-children-covid-outbreak/

[xyzcf]

Thanks for the article marvin.

I chatted on my deck yesterday with a 69 year old substitute teacher who "believes" that Trump is right about opening the schools because "children don't transmit the virus" and don't really get "sick" from it...tell that to parents of children who have died from COVID or teachers who have contracted the disease.

She feels strongly that children need to go back to school for "socialization" and "mental health issues" and I mentioned that there is an economic reason as well, parents can't work if they don't have "daycare".

Are those reasons enough to risk the lives of students and staff?

A vaccine will be available. To me, that is the only sane way to reopen.

I told her, if my daughter was school age, I would not be sending her to school.

What totally freaks me out, this women is 69 years old and she is going to go back to working as a substitute teacher.

What is amazing to me, is the lack of "belief" in what science is telling us and the acceptance of information from someone who has promoted information that is false several times.....this denial of new information which is continuously being generated from the data and will continue to change as more is found out, this disregarding new information about a virus that is still a mystery in some ways as to how it causes disease, is what is causing the dangerously high number of cases in the US.

It doe not have to be this way. 

[marvin4242]

It does really confound me too. Generally I do not understand why people reject expertise, information and hard earned knowledge and simply embrace random and unsubstantiated beliefs when dealing with public health or medicine. What humanity has learned and where we are now, even compared to 20 years ago, is simply mind boggling. We are sequencing genes of a new virus, we have developed novel mRNA vaccines and have inserted the spike protein into other agents to create vaccines, we can do large scale controlled studies and have rapidly discovered SO MUCH about this new virus (although it has sadly cost a lot of lives and lot of disruption).

But people still choose to reject all this and either listen to completely unqualified people spouting nonsense (whether its leaders, talk show hosts, or doctors who think diseases are caused by demons, a throwback to what century exactly?). And this at the risk to their own well being (like the substitute teacher) or to risk to others (like young people who think because they or ok its just fine to get sick or people who don't actually understand what "freedoms" the constitution is referring to). Sad part is if people simply listened to experts, followed guidelines, and used facts and science this disease would be under control and we all would have resumed a great deal of our lives, including resuming most economic activity. But instead by ignoring this we are simply making everything so much worse. Compare Germany to US and it tells you everything you need to know.

In the age of knowledge, reason, information and technology people choose to embrace the dark ages.

[OldPilot]

I hear you but on the flip side I personally know quite a few people that have committed suicide from being quarantined.

So what about them?

[marvin4242]

I hear you but on the flip side I personally know quite a few people that have committed suicide from being quarantined.

So what about them?

That is a tragedy, and is part of the problem. Mental health, financial well being, kids socializing. These are all important. I am in no way dismissing that. But I guess I don't understand how it is the "flip side." It is the same to me. If people followed expert advised, guidelines and we had a coordinated response these problems would also be solved. People in Europe already have more resumption of activity, I know elder people in UK who are now meeting in open spaces in gardens and are no longer as isolated. Even in Italy which started with a badly handled response and lot of deaths they are actually managing to resume some normalcy while maintaining control over the disease.

We are actually making these problems worse by ignoring knowledge and facts.

Am I missing your point?

[xyzcf]

I hear you but on the flip side I personally know quite a few people that have committed suicide from being quarantined.

I would like to know statistically what "quite a few people" is compared to the 150,000 plus deaths from COVID.

The difference?

Someone who commits suicide, takes their own life. It is a decision. They are not killing someone else by transmitting the virus.

I am not at all saying that the mental health consequences are not enormous..they are. Personally, I went for 5 therapy sessions because of difficulties I was facing from being totally alone...$165.00 per session but money well spent.

How many people can afford that? It's not covered by my insurance.

How many people have a therapist they can call up and say "I need help"?

How many people recognize or are willing to obtain help from a mental health provider?

The argument that we need to reopen because several people are committing suicide is not helpful.

There will be more suicides after the recents cuts in unemployment benefits.

I wonder what the suicide rates are in countries that provide social programs for all their people are compared to the US?

I wonder what the suicide rates are for people with COVID who are experiencing months of symptoms with no end in sight?

[Acorn]

From American Psychological Association on Covid 19 and suicide:

“But it will be a while before COVID-19’s actual impact on the nation’s suicide rate is known, says psychologist Jill Harkavy-Friedman, PhD, vice president of research at the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. “We’re two years away from having data,” she says. And it’s not a given that the pandemic will cause suicide rates to increase, emphasizes Harkavy-Friedman, who is also an associate professor of clinical psychology, in psychiatry, at Columbia University.
“One event can bring stress, but it’s not going to make someone suicidal out of the blue,” she says, explaining that it is typically a combination of biological, psychological, environmental and other factors that renders people vulnerable to suicide.”

To point at quarantine as the sole reason for suicide is unhelpful and, I am sorry to say, a bit simplistic.

The sooner people listen to sensible advices of the experts which are based on good quality research (not anecdotes and conspiracy theories), the sooner we should be able to resume more or less normal life.   That would help the emotionally vulnerable who may be at risk for self harming.

[OldPilot]

Am I missing your point?

I dont think so