[toomanytearss]

I can totally relate. You and I are pretty much in the same place and following similar paths.

I can relate so much to your post. Thank you for sharing. I sometimes feel very alone and awkward because I have not jumped at the chance to reconcile. It’s very hard to explain why but you explained it quite well.

Happy Holidays songanddance.

[UrsaMajor]

He has recently started to ask if there would be any chance of us fully reconciling - now 4 or even three years ago - I would have probably jumped at it. Now though - now I am healed and whole - I am not ready to commit to any form of reconciliation until I believe that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again.

I have to ask the obvious question (and TMT can also chime in here as you are both in similar situations/positions)....

And what would that - "that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again" - look like for you? What would need to happen, what would he need to do that would allow you to believe that he has really done the work he needed to do.... Naturally, that will be different for every individual but as a "generic" concept....

[Songanddance]

He has recently started to ask if there would be any chance of us fully reconciling - now 4 or even three years ago - I would have probably jumped at it. Now though - now I am healed and whole - I am not ready to commit to any form of reconciliation until I believe that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again.

I have to ask the obvious question (and TMT can also chime in here as you are both in similar situations/positions)....

And what would that - "that he wants it because he is whole and not for me to become his rescuer again" - look like for you? What would need to happen, what would he need to do that would allow you to believe that he has really done the work he needed to do.... Naturally, that will be different for every individual but as a "generic" concept....

For me - one thing- it would have to be him choosing not to keep focussing the attention on himself. At this moment in time - after we have hugged when we have met - his first words are often something like this...." I'm having a terrible day.....I'm very busy.... I'm glad you're here because you can help me......"  that kind of thing.  Much of any conversation is rooted around him still. 
He has also been diagnosed with adult ADHD by a psychiatrist (which actually explains so much) but his whole thinking is about him "curing" it so that he can function better because it's affecting his business.

He is however getting better at listening and is beginning to really hear how challenging S can be but he stops short at wanting to actually stand up and admit his actions destroyed S.  He says that he is sad to hear how difficult it can be for me but yet again it's platitudes or he will try and tell me what I should say to H.  He still wants to be in control.

A second thing would be not to forget that we had planned to meet or to change plans and not let me know until I got there.  For example - we were going to do some carol singing together - I said I would travel to meet him as the meeting was near his home.   I started the 40 min drive, got stuck in traffic and was rather delayed.  All the time I kept him updated and he never replied to the texts.  I arrive - ask the others where he is - they haven't a clue.  I phone him  - his comment " Oh it's too cold - I don't like getting cold so I stayed home"

I mentioned the texts - "Oh I didn't think to check to see where you were."

That kind of thing...... would be nice not to have happen - to be an after-thought. To be asked if I'm ok - to be phoned because I was late and check that I was safe etc..... 

At our oldest D's recent wedding - he met S for the first time since we separated (20 months ago).  All he said to him and our other daughter (both of whom were diagnosed with ADHD some time ago)  "Hello S - I have to apologise to you ....It;s my fault you have ADHD and I'm sorry."

For a fleeting moment I actually thought he was going to apologise to S for breaking his heart.  But no.  S just looked at H and said " S'alright." and walked away.

They talked very little at the wedding but S was very civil and also kind to H. 

So what would a repaired former MLCer who has had a stroke look like for me?  TBH - I think I would just know.

Admittedly his stroke has set him back in that he has lost dexterity in his hands and so cannot do much of what he excelled at before in his engineering business.  He sometimes has to be reminded to use the fork the right way when he eats. 

So my dilemma is do I consider reconciling because he genuinely needs my help and support when in actual fact all I could end up doing is rescuing and fixing  more for him (I don't wish to sound callous) because of his stroke?
I was his aide- de memoire throughout our marriage - do I have to be the one who does that again and more? I don't want to seem unkind - but until he stops looking at himself and how life has treated him badly 100% of the time, I just don't think he's healthy enough to work on proper reconciliation.

[UrsaMajor]

He still wants to be in control.
<...snip...>
A second thing would be not to forget that we had planned to meet or to change plans and not let me know until I got there.
<...snip...>
 I don't want to seem unkind - but until he stops looking at himself and how life has treated him badly 100% of the time, I just don't think he's healthy enough to work on proper reconciliation.

Thanks S & D for the answer!   

This all makes perfect sense to me... and, if I were in your place, I'd very likely be seeing it the same way. I was just wondering because, like I said, that probably looks different for every MLC/LBS combination because each situation is, despite the similarities in the overall scheme, different in the details

[KayDee]

.
At our oldest D's recent wedding - he met S for the first time since we separated (20 months ago).  All he said to him and our other daughter (both of whom were diagnosed with ADHD some time ago)  "Hello S - I have to apologise to you ....It;s my fault you have ADHD and I'm sorry."

This is what stood out for me - that he can only now relate because he has the diagnosis himself. Like 'let's talk about my ADHD'. That's the sense I get - although perhaps  it wasn't quite like this.

.
So my dilemma is do I consider reconciling because he genuinely needs my help and support when in actual fact all I could end up doing is rescuing and fixing  more for him (I don't wish to sound callous) because of his stroke?

No one could EVER accuse you of being callous S & D. Lesser mortals would not shown the same patience and grace. Your guidance to others on the forum is testament to your generosity and empathy.

Do you think the stroke may have further changed your H mentally? I know a stroke can change people and be the cause of depression. Sometimes temporarily, other times more permanently, depending on the nature and size of the stroke.

[Songanddance]

Do you think the stroke may have further changed your H mentally? I know a stroke can change people and be the cause of depression. Sometimes temporarily, other times more permanently, depending on the nature and size of the stroke

Oh definitely and probably more permanently. I did wonder myself only a few weeks ago whether he actually had more brain damage than we realised.  H had a brain bleed in the right parietal lobe; it was extensive and the neurosurgeon said that he hadn't seen quite so much blood before. Add to that he also said he was surprised that H even survived and could talk and improve as fast as he did.  He had very low expectations of H's recovery if he even survived.

H has struggled with depression probably on and off all his life and the ADHD diagnosis would support his fluctuating moods and erratic impulsive behaviour which I just put down to high energy and high intellect.

I think I don't expect H to get "much better" or even back to what he was unless any medication he's prescribed helps. I think he has brain damage (he can't have an MRI - medical reasons) and so we will never know.

This is why I don't want to appear callous.  If MLC hadn't happened - I would have been caring for and with him and would have done so because I wanted to.  Now - I would never abandon him, but I cannot be his keeper or minder.

[KayDee]

Oh, this must such a hard situation to navigate. I know from some personal experience (not MLC related) how life altering strokes can be.

My initial thinking was - well, this is a consequence of abandoning your loving partner and your family. The unconditional love, the 'in sickness and health' etc, which flows from the LBS, it is compromised, fractured, if not utterly broken in the wake of BD. I guess, when the MLC disposes of their loved ones, seemingly without a thought, they don't have this on their mind. We, the stable spouse, we endure a lot. And we have to learn to expect nothing from our former spouses. In the early days, we can barely expect a kind word, let alone any kind of support for illness and so forth. So it's must be such a complex mix of emotions for you S & D, but, I just can't imagine anyone would consider you callous.

[forthetrees]

Seems that the Universe allowed for the MLC BD to happen prior to the stroke so you are not obligated to become a nurse maid. There was the female co-worker who globbed on to him, he could reach out to her for help. Please don´t box yourself in to being a caretaker when you finally opened up your box.

[Treasur]

It seems to me that when we say ‘the marriage you had is over at BD’ - legally or not - it’s because a kind of implied psychological contract is broken. And that was seemingly their choice at the time. Regretting it later, as some MLC spouses seem to do, doesn’t change that. We mourn it so hard at the time bc we valued it so deeply, but our grief doesn’t change that either. And we LBS are forced to change our lens on a lot of things because of that, aren’t we? And some of those changes become our new normal so that, even if an MLC spouse wants to go back in some way to the old contract and the old spouse they had, we are no longer quite the same as when they BD’d us. In fact, quite a few stories here suggest that MLCers seem a bit taken aback by that no matter how long it has been since BD which is a bit of a WTF in itself 

So, the old ‘deal’ was broken into a million pieces. All of those ‘in sickness and in health etc’ things that we would have done before with (mostly) love and grace bc of how we saw our part in that deal and team effort of a long marriage. Which means that we get to choose what/if we are prepared to offer or not and it’s ok if we do. Bc post BD, it’s a new ‘deal’. Or not. Doesn’t make us callous or selfish or unkind…just means we are living in a different normal than we used to live in. And I think fwiw you are being commendably clear-eyed about that. So, it’s ok to choose what you are or are not prepared to offer in a new kind of relationship with him if you choose to have one, and indeed what you require of him.

I think your ‘parp parp’ system about his self centredness is a useful one. I’ve seen it in quite a few stories here when returning spouses still seem remarkably Me-Me ish, way more interested in what they want to get from some kind of reconciliation than what they might need to give. That may evolve with time - some longer term reconciled here seem to suggest it does, but with years rather than months - so for the moment, it would seem sensible to me to accept that whatever relationship you form will be with someone who still  is disproportionately self focused. The causes of his self centredness might be multiple ones - MLC, character, effects of his stroke, fear of the future - but in a way that doesn’t matter bc you are still dealing with a self-centred person. It’s up to you to decide what feels comfortable and healthy for you in that kind of relationship and what  ‘new deal’ you are prepared to put on the table imo. I imagine though that it must feel much easier to contemplate this from the security of your own home and your own rebuilt life than from where you were a while ago….if nothing else, it means you can take your time to consider it.

On a separate note, how is your son doing?

[Songanddance]

There was the female co-worker who globbed on to him, he could reach out to her for help

And he still does.  He took her to meet the psychiatrist when he went for his first appointment because " She doesn't take my BS and will call me out if I say anything potentially untruthful or embellished"

I found this staggering and called him out on it.  I said that whilst I was not prepared to be his "nursemaid/carer" I was far more qualified to call him out on his BS than she ever would be because he had not abandoned her; he had not broken up her family etc....   He was shocked that I was so angry with him.

That said - the psychiatrist did ask her not to interject or speak unless H proved to be incapable of giving correct information. The psychiatrist also told him that he owed me a huge apology because I had provided him with a secure scaffold all of our married life and that the reason H was struggling was not just down to any diagnosis; it was down to the fact that he broke the one thing that gave him security and safety.

I just said " I knew that - tell me something I don't know!"   And yet quietly I thanked the psychiatrist for at least calling his behaviour out. 
Finally he and she are not getting on as well anymore - he claims that she has said she is getting tired of him and his moaning as well as not running his business (that she thinks she saved single-handedly)

Please don´t box yourself in to being a caretaker when you finally opened up your box

Rest assured FTT - Absolutely NO intention of doing that.  I'm liking my new found life far too much.

I imagine though that it must feel much easier to contemplate this from the security of your own home and your own rebuilt life than from where you were a while ago….if nothing else, it means you can take your time to consider it.

One word to both statements - Totally!

I just can't imagine anyone would consider you callous.

I would hope not but when you are a newbie  and you read my actions;  when you are in so much pain and still very much enmeshed in your love for the MLCer - it might seem that my words and actions are those of a tired and frustrated LBSer who is losing patience and becoming terse - something that as a newbie you hope you would never become.   Does that make sense?