[WHY]

It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation. 

[Evermore]

It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

I don’t think anyone (that has been here a while) dismisses what Song is saying. We have always talked about ‘living like they are not coming back’ (even if they still physically live at home). Standing as it’s generally coached here isn’t contrary to that (at least I don’t feel it is). It’s ‘GALing sensibly’ whilst ‘keeping the door open (well, ajar really)’ that makes both moving forward in your life possible and gives a reconnection down the road a chance (even if not a reconciliation). We all just need constant reminders (I def do! )to detach and keep moving forward (so as always, thanks Song).

[Treasur]

It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner. 

I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

I don’t think anyone (that has been here a while) dismisses what Song is saying. We have always talked about ‘living like they are not coming back’ (even if they still physically live at home). Standing as it’s generally coached here isn’t contrary to that (at least I don’t feel it is). It’s ‘GALing sensibly’ whilst ‘keeping the door open (well, ajar really)’ that makes both moving forward in your life possible and gives a reconnection down the road a chance (even if not a reconciliation). We all just need constant reminders (I def do! )to detach and keep moving forward (so as always, thanks Song).

Wise words from Song imho.
The tough likely truth - and the one that most of us don’t really want to fully swallow when we first come here - is that our spouse has almost always unilaterally and irrecoverably changed the landscape of our marriages, families and way of life.
I am not sure it is possible to move forward - whatever that means for you - until or unless one reaches a point of accepting that. And that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.
I believe it is very important to have deep respect for where any individual LBS is at a given time, as well as understanding that this is a process too and that LBS evolve in their POV and priorities as they stumble forwards. But respect is so important when we come here having been profoundly disrespected, devalued and often lied to and manipulated....it takes longer than we all might wish to find our feet after that, doesn’t it?
With hindsight - and the caveat that I long ago stopped seeing Standing as relevant for me - my best take on it is that it is perhaps more about how wide a gap in the door you are prepared to allow and what kind of different relationship you are prepared to have longer-term. And that probably takes a bit of time to work out too.

[Songanddance]

I am not sure it is possible to move forward - whatever that means for you - until or unless one reaches a point of accepting that. And that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.[

So True Treasur - and I did just that for a long time - longer than I believed I ever could or would. It became comfortable and as one of my favourite show's mantra states " Nothing changes if it isn't challenged"

I'm going to give a different example of  standing that perhaps might resonate with others.  When my middle child (D) was 16 - she ran away from home. She had met this rather undesirable person at her college and in the middle of her job shift - she told the store manager a complete lie about a family death, took the train and went off to a large city with this undesirable.

I was beside myself as was H. H was all for going and dragging her back by her hair if necessary. Two weeks later she returned- very rebellious and so began a series of disappearances for the next 2 years.  Each time getting longer and longer - the longest being 6 months without proper contact other than a quick text to let me know she was still ok.

When it first happened I had to tell my boss (who had no children but plenty of neices and nephews of D's age). Her advice was this " Let her go - keep the door open and one day she will come back to reconnect.  There is no guarantee that she will be the daughter you hoped she would be but she will return as long as you don't push or cajole or persuade. Just keep the door open"

She was right - 2 yrs later D returned - relationship truly over.  The next couple of years were chaotic and unpredictable and she was in denial about her own behaviour. She left home but lived locally for the next couple of years and ran up huge debts which I had to cover etc...... 10 yrs on though from her initial running away - she had a baby (my gorgeous little GD) and now 7 yrs on I am incredibly proud of my D who has done the work on her health, mental well being, she is in demand as a performer and trainer. 

It took me a long long time to equate the words of my boss with what H did - but then I didn't really understand or know about MLC and I was so personally hurt that it took time before I really grasped the principle of leaving the door open.

LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN (if you want to).However only do it because it serves you and your children. A clinger will always come back through the door (open or not) and yo yo frantically for years. A wallower won't even realise the door is open as they are so shut off in their own worlds. A vanisher will not know until or if they decide to make contact.    The only person who will truly keep the door open is the LBSer........and you can still decide not to stand.

Basically eyes off the MLCer and back on your life.

[xyzcf]

Quote from: Songanddance on February 20, 2023, 05:43:36 AM
It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Quote from WHY: I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

Each situation is different. The LBSer doesn't really get the choice to "send them on their way" because many have left on their own, are in other relationships, become vanishers not because of anything the LBSer does. In some cases perhaps the LBSer allows the MLCer to live at home but even when they are living in the same house, they are living separate lives and come and go as they please, do what they please, see who they please........

As like most everything else, you cannot "fix" them or increase your shot at a reconciliation by either sending them away or letting them stay, nor by standing or not standing.

Now regarding "standing"...Song has expressed what we "preach" all the time....

GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

Accepting

that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.

is achieved regardless of whether you decide to stand or not. It doesn't have to be one way or another.

I was never told to stand or not to stand, I did however know from the earliest days that I was "standing"...some say here that means the door is open or left ajar a bit...it doesn't mean that I have only been waiting for our marriage to be restored and somehow have missed out on living my life.

I do believe that MLC happened to him, changed him and is something that occurred without a "conscious decision" and I wish it had not happened but I accept that it did.

Standing for me, accepting that whatever this MLC/depression/brain change/crisis  is......leaving the door ajar....allows our family to spend time together, allows me to forgive him and live without anger or bitterness towards him, allows me to be comfortable to be with him recently twice when he was hospitalized and take care of him while he was recovering, allows us to enjoy watching Super Bowl together...without expecting anything from him..because I accept that his life is his to live and I cannot change any of that.

But I also value the sacrament of our marriage, and that cannot be erased. When we married, there were three at the alter, God, my husband and myself and God and I are still in agreement.....

There is nothing about standing that will hold you back from living. If this is what God has placed in your heart (and that is not something that everyone will experience) but if it is, then all the debate about the "dangers" of standing are nothing.

Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.

[Songanddance]

Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

Quote
The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

And yet Treasur has managed to identify how I stood whilst still in the same house as my MLCer for 9 years. 
Now we're separated I have a clearer picture and realise that  I am on the fence.

The door is open - does this mean I am standing in terms of believing that my H will come back? No it means that that should H be willing to do the hard work and should I be in a similar frame of mind and we choose TOGETHER to reconcile then that is something that my standing has allowed. Equally - just because we have separated and not chosen to divorce doesn't mean that we will reconcile and that call will be on me.  I just don't want to make that decision yet because currently my life is too good with what I am doing and achieving to keep thinking or reflecting on the state of my MLCer and my marriage.

The door is open and it will be up to me to shut it. 

Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.

Standing is about choice and it can and perhaps "should" be a daily choice - not a decision because it is the "right" thing to do.  XY is correct - standing has nothing to do with the chances of reconciliation - it means that you are free to choose based upon your own understandings/beliefs/ philosophies/experiences and outlook on life.

[WHY]

Quote from: Songanddance on February 20, 2023, 05:43:36 AM
It took my H almost a year on his own after 9 yrs as a stay at homer to really begin to understand what he has done. I'm not advocating the kick them out principle either - but I am saying - don't "wait" for your stay at homer - GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Quote from WHY: I think we all too easily dismiss what a seasoned vet like Song is saying here.   I know we advocate for standing and allowing the MLCer to remain or return home.   But it seems like wallowers get stuck and can get stuck for years.  Although I can’t know for sure, Im a strong believer that sending them on their way with grace and leaving the door open, is the best way for your own survival and gives you a shot at reconciliation.

Each situation is different. The LBSer doesn't really get the choice to "send them on their way" because many have left on their own, are in other relationships, become vanishers not because of anything the LBSer does. In some cases perhaps the LBSer allows the MLCer to live at home but even when they are living in the same house, they are living separate lives and come and go as they please, do what they please, see who they please........

As like most everything else, you cannot "fix" them or increase your shot at a reconciliation by either sending them away or letting them stay, nor by standing or not standing.

Now regarding "standing"...Song has expressed what we "preach" all the time....

GAL sensibly, get your finances in order - look after yourself and children first.  If your MLCer is going to come around there is nothing you can do to make that happen any sooner.

Standing is an intensely personal decision and I disagree with Treasur's assumption:

The difficulty with Standing imho is that it can be easy to avoid accepting that in your bones and lead you inadvertently to a sort of one foot in both worlds way of living. At least for a time.

Accepting

that there is no going back for either our spouse or ourselves to a time before that landscape was changed.

is achieved regardless of whether you decide to stand or not. It doesn't have to be one way or another.

I was never told to stand or not to stand, I did however know from the earliest days that I was "standing"...some say here that means the door is open or left ajar a bit...it doesn't mean that I have only been waiting for our marriage to be restored and somehow have missed out on living my life.

I do believe that MLC happened to him, changed him and is something that occurred without a "conscious decision" and I wish it had not happened but I accept that it did.

Standing for me, accepting that whatever this MLC/depression/brain change/crisis  is......leaving the door ajar....allows our family to spend time together, allows me to forgive him and live without anger or bitterness towards him, allows me to be comfortable to be with him recently twice when he was hospitalized and take care of him while he was recovering, allows us to enjoy watching Super Bowl together...without expecting anything from him..because I accept that his life is his to live and I cannot change any of that.

But I also value the sacrament of our marriage, and that cannot be erased. When we married, there were three at the alter, God, my husband and myself and God and I are still in agreement.....

There is nothing about standing that will hold you back from living. If this is what God has placed in your heart (and that is not something that everyone will experience) but if it is, then all the debate about the "dangers" of standing are nothing.

Standing is not only for those whose religious beliefs are a part of their decision, standing is for anyone who believed that their spouse was a good partner, that their marriage was strong, that they would like a chance to reconcile if that every happens. It isn't a tool or a method to increase the chances of reconciliation, but a philosophy that comes from one's heart.

And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married. 

[Songanddance]

And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married.

I'm not going to be able to answer this.  Remaining intimate with an MLCer is each LBSer's personal choice.  Mine was pretty clear - H had an OW. 

There is differing advice on this forum about this. If you were incredibly and very frequently intimate before BD then the sudden loss of such is very hard to handle. This is why some LBSers might decide that they are not prepared to stand.  They don't want to lose the chance of having close and intimate relationships and so they decide that this might be one of the reasons why they can't stand. 
 
Some will place the closeness and previous deep connections of their marriage above intimacy and decide to stand to gain that before the need to be intimate again. 

Each to his own. 
If you want intimacy and you want it with your wife - then yes, you may have to decide whether to stand or not and also decide whether to pursue  an intimate relationship with her ,even though you know that at this moment in time she is not committed to you and may refuse to maintain a physical relationship.
Or you can choose to stand and be "celibate" but then again there never is any guarantee that the MLCer will choose to return to the marriage. It might not take a decade and then again it might.  Who knows?
That's the really frustrating and sad part about MLC - there is no guaranteed timeline only averages based on anecdotal information.

Or you choose not to stand.

It all comes down to a personal choice based upon your beliefs, your needs, your wholeness and your moving forward as an LBSer.

Sorry - I did say I wouldn't be able to answer your question.

[Ready2Transform]

And what about physical intimacy?  Basically write it off for a decade?  I find it hard to GAL and live “as if” when not being able to be with anyone else because you’re still married. 

To add to what S&D said, which I agree with (none of us can make that decision for another), as a person no longer standing who has been divorced for almost ten years now, I can tell you that "singlehood" is not a guarantee you'll have a sparkling intimacy life either. If the bar was very low? Sure, there are plenty of potential partners who will probably add to your trauma in the long run. Or if you're just looking for casual experiences, you can probably find them easily. But as far as meeting your next soulmate within two weeks of your papers being signed, that's a unicorn story you shouldn't believe. It takes time to find out who you are, what you want out of real relationships, and to meet someone else who is a match for that. At least, that's what I hope. I've met some duds along the way, had some good experiences and some not-so-good ones, and still don't place all of my bets for happiness on someone else. In the grand scheme, what I'm trying to say is, if it takes 5 or 10 years, that may not end up being as much wasted "intimacy" time as you think.

[WHY]

A wallower won't even realise the door is open as they are so shut off in their own worlds.

Song this is an interesting comment.  Does that mean LBS needs to be more explicit about the door being left ajar with wallowers?