[Finding Joy]

Standing, I think overall a women’s body is made to reproduce and a lot of those feelings are primal.  In our 40’s most women have kids that are much more independent, if they have kids, and  need to figure out who they are now that they are not so overwhelmed with motherhood.

Also, our culture expects women to be and do it all.  Personally I don’t buy into that, but many women get the short end of the stick in their marriages raising kids, working and doing the majority of the work at home. 

I personally would immediately start looking for another relationship leading to marriage if my marriage ended, because I know that’s what I want and I am whole.  I love having a best friend to live life with.  But, I think what you are seeing and noticing is a product of our broken society.

[Standing Strong]

Thank you FJ 

That you would say that (IMO) speaks volumes. I wonder too, if you are a product of a different time as well. You were married at the same age I was (20), and I feel similar in that should everything go south I don't like the thought of being alone either and would lean towards another R with the intention of M (I never dated just to date, if I didn't think they were potentially M material, I passed entirely).
To see the majority of people (now days, and in our same age group) being a complete 180 from that outlook.... it's a little confusing and distressing (to me). Are we just "old fashioned"? HA!! 

I do see what you mean about getting the short end of the stick (potentially), but I wonder if most men/husbands generally are pretty good? We LBS are in a bit of a different situation than "normal" people with our broken MLC spouses..... but if they hadn't broken, then would we have been "normal" too? Most of us report having good M's or good spouses until they went off the rails (and then we figure out there were a lot of problems we weren't aware of)...... I wonder if that hadn't happened, would we ever have known or cared? I also wonder, if there are changes in life (such as that primal children calling instinct going away), curious that it coincides with the area that MLC often happens. If that is true, and our spouses didn't break in MLC.... I wonder what would've happened in that time and in the R's "naturally". Know what I mean? We will never know since we got to experience MLC instead.... In the case of women, it's very interesting to me what that dynamic would be....... if there is a primal children instinct which influences women to want an H...... what happens when that goes away? How does a woman feel then? If we were to say the guy was good (assuming), what then? I'm guessing that's where "deep love" kicks in? Fills in the blanks? I do know that men (when they marry) assume the way a woman feels about them will not change over time but that's not true is it? I don't think a man who is truly in love with his W changes his feelings over time. Don't think it happens, actually I think a properly functioning man's feelings become more infatuated towards his W as time goes on.  That in itself would be an interesting topic to explore: the thinking, assumptions and construction of men (HA!!). 

I think the questions I'm asking are also difficult because the people who come here are pretty high quality people who actually deeply cared about their life, their marriage and their spouse. That doesn't seem to be the norm anymore does it? Everything is so disposable now days, even people. Broken society indeed..... maybe that is why I'm asking these questions: nothing makes sense to me!! HA!! 

I did have a further thought about what I've seen..... it's going to sound bad, but is this true....... I work with lots of professionals, and I didn't put it together, but the women in their 40's who said they weren't interested in an M anymore: They were all very well to do. They could 100% provide for themselves with ease. The women in the "rush" to get married, a lot of them were not well off. Actually most of them weren't, but a handful were (the handful were almost always the 39'ers). So I wonder if there is a baby component, and if there is a security/financial component. That would explain a lot, but it wouldn't be a very pretty dynamic. Certainly not a romantic one. What do you think about that? Is that a thing from a woman's perspective?

-SS     

[Treasur]

I found myself wondering what lay behind your questions tbh.
Are you trying to infer backwards to make sense of what might be going on with your wife?
Or are you trying to extrapolate out to a general view from a sample of women here?

Either way, Standing, your sample base is rather skewed surely.
My perspective would have been different before becoming an LBS.
And i’m not sure that my perspective now after being an LBS offers much useful about the perspective of an MLC wife. Or your own.

[Standing Strong]

Hi T 

General understanding, a lot of it just theoretical. My brain keeps going back to timelines as all of us naturally follow those throughout life. Everything has a time, everything a season (turn, turn.... LOL  ). Here and there I've listened to a few episodes of Suzanne Venker, what an interesting lady. Unique viewpoint. She doesn't cover MLC (at all) but in a nutshell she believes that women have been sold a lie about being able to "have it all" and that today's women are scrambling to put everything back into place (once they discover they can't have it all). According to her the problem itself revolves around time, stages in life, putting things in place, and deep anger at men (all things my MLC'er has talked about, and so it's interesting to me). Very complicated and multi-layered. Not that her opinion and perspective is the answer, but she does seem (to me) to be a very intelligent person attempting to understand the root issues of modern man/woman relationship dynamics and their underlying construction. Again, nothing to do with MLC but I as an individual would like to understand what makes a woman tick, and why. By the same token, I don't always fully understand my motivations, feelings or thoughts and that would be nice to understand as well.   

Yes, going back in time (for me) and trying to understand, that's part of it.... but also part is a "what if" as to what would have been experienced had all this MLC stuff hadn't happened.... but assuming MLC does come to a conclusion at some point you, I or anyone would then be dropped off with a person we haven't seen in who knows how long. I can only guess that person will restart at some point along the "normal person" timeline and continue on with life. Understanding what a person normally goes thru at the point they re-enter (I think) would be helpful, we are after all out of practice dealing with someone so closely.

For me, having a broken person here at home...... my thoughts do wander into "what would life be like if...... no MLC" (right? we all want what we can't have, it's human). We assume it would be rainbows and sunshine because at some point, it was. The only way to estimate what it would have been like, is to look at those of similar age and see what's happening with them. My limited sample size shows me it's riddled with problems. Since I can't do anything with my broken person (these years and years are being lost and missed, "regular" life skipped on by), I look closely at my friends and acquaintances..... what I find is a mess I can't explain. At the same time, my neighbors on both sides are young and have new babies and young children. I see that happy, confident, solid quality that comes with all that. Oh I know that feeling.... You know, back when you could never imagine the world falling apart (?). It puts things in a different perspective..... I know I thought that feeling would last forever, assumed it would (wrong!!..... HA!!). I am drawn to understand what the change is, what the difference is, and why. Someday, I'll have a W who has made it thru MLC. That by itself will result in someone different, but also her age and the changes which come with it will further make her different. This is a scary and distressing thing to a man...... men need to be needed. It isn't a want to be needed and useful, it's a need. IF there is a component which makes women more independent and have less need (at a certain age), then men need to understand it, adapt, and become useful in a new way. If there is a change that can't be bridged back to the emotional state that existed before, men need to know that also. I realize the core issue is one of connection. When you're young, connection is easy. If that naturally changes, then how does it change, what are the boundaries of that change, and what do we do to re-establish and maintain connection?

There... a jumble of thoughts, interesting what we get caught up processing when we're LBS's. I know I'm stuck trying to resolve these, and I've been unable to thus far..... because I'm not a woman. HA!! 

-SS   

[Curiosity]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot, but haven’t really had much to contribute (and I’m still not sure I do, but chiming in anyway). The thing is… there’s not going to be a single answer to what makes a woman tick, or to what a woman wants in various stages of her life. Just like some women in this community would immediately seek a committed relationship if their marriages ended, and some would appreciate the independence that comes from being single; just like some women in this community are LBSs and some men (and women) in this community have MLC wives… I don’t think we can generalize and hope to understand all or even most women based on a single framework. Same is true for men, for that matter.

My father was either a walk away spouse or an MLCer - he has always been present as a father but is just not someone who makes a good spouse. He married and divorced multiple times, he had affairs… and finally seems to have decided he wants to date but not have a committed relationship. My uncle married his high school sweetheart and more than 50 years later, they are the image of soulmates, best friends, and true life partners. My dad and uncle came from the same parents, grew up in the same circumstances, live in similar communities and have similar socioeconomic statuses… and yet, their approaches to marriage and relationships are completely different.

For me… I appreciate the companionship of having a spouse or long term partner, even more than I need the romantic part of it. Ideally, I could have both… but what this has taught me is that nothing is permanent, and that not everyone values their promises the same way I do. Trust is not as easily given as it used to be, because I can never truly know what’s in someone else’s heart or mind. I think I would be far less likely to make a commitment to someone in the future, because I’m not sure I could believe in their commitment to me - but I also think I would  seek long term companionship from someone. I’m not sure whether that would be platonic or romantic; it would depend on the relationship. I am awed in some ways by people who can, after being betrayed as we all were by MLCers, truly commit their hearts and lives to another person. I’m not sure I could ever do that again - but it’s not because marriage and commitment and partnership have no meaning for me. In fact, it’s precisely because marriage means so much to me that I don’t think I could go there again - not because of any covenant marriage beliefs, exactly, but because it simply requires a level of absolute trust that I personally don’t think I can let myself have again.

[Standing Strong]

What an awesome response C  Thank you!

I had something to add also (which I thought was interesting).
I was talking to my mom last night, and the topic of this thread came up. She was interested and asked "what do you mean?"..... so I explained that I was asking how and if a woman's view/attraction/need/value of or toward a man/husband changes as time goes on.
She didn't understand at 1st, saying "I love your dad" HAHAHHAAHHA!! "Yes, I know that mom..... not what I'm asking"..... then the light came on and she understood...... "Oh.... I don't think women like talking about that"..... Ah Ha!! We have a winner (maybe). Then mom goes on to explain that things change when the kids are leaving and the need for your own territory becomes much stronger..... that in her case, she didn't want dad "on her stomping ground"". How interesting. She talked about her friends and how many of them don't want the inconvenience of dealing with someone, and that it's simpler to just worry about your own worries and not someone else's. How being tired of taking care of other people is a thing.

I was surprised at how open she was about this, although she hesitated at 1st..... and then *POOF* off to the races. 
The bit about "women don't want to talk about that"..... you gals have some secret club us boys aren't allowed to?  HA!!

-SS
 

[Ready2Transform]

Thank you for saying that, Curiosity! I have struggled with how or if to contribute to this thread. I think you summed it up for many of us! Plus we don't just exist as a collective group driven by instinct or hormones. Even in MLC world, it is the uniqueness of our experiences that are the main factors and predictors.

Does there come a point in your life, where a man simply doesn't have the shine it used to have? And if this has happened to you, can you describe it? Or maybe it's not a complete loss of value, but a change in value? If that's the case, can you describe what it's like for you?

I don't feel there has been any change in how I value men. Even though my xH and I started dating in our teens, our relationship was never a means to an end for me. He was my best friend, but I always had other goals, including starting my business young, getting a degree, traveling, working - all things I didn't need to do in tandem with him. He had that freedom as well - spent 8 years in the military, went to college for a while, pursued different job paths and hobbies, lived on his own, etc. I have always had male friends and colleagues, and the dynamic feels like it is the same on my end. But as to romantic or life partnerships, even with xH - I wasn't looking for financial stability (had less with him), I wasn't looking for a co-parent (no kids), or to fill some societal norm. For me, it was more about sharing my life with someone and being able to do things as a married couple more easily (like buy property, get health insurance, etc.). After going through divorce and all that it has entailed due to not picking a partner I was shared "fiscal similarities" with, I would have to weigh the pros and cons before entering into another marriage. But honestly, that doesn't sound as appealing as it did in my 20s, since I've now lived without that for so long. It's easier to make choices just for myself.

In a partner though, I still tend to look for the same things I did when I was young: physical attraction, similar interests and life goals, sense of humor. The men I have dated or had an interest in have not been big money guys or people I would have to change a great deal to be with. Sleeping on someone's couch might be a red flag, but sleeping in an apartment instead of owning would not. Being as co-dependent as my xH was and needing to attach to my life in some sort of symbiotic way where we are each others' everything would absolutely be a deal-breaker. I've seen that in some of my guy friends once they are in relationships, and at this age especially, it's weird. We should all have more of a sense of identity than that.

[beyondblessed]

Standing, I feel like I need to add, in case you haven't followed much of my thread, that I am getting married again in a little over a month.  Even having gone through the single worst experience of my life, I never doubted it was a HIM (the runaway) problem solely....not a "man" problem in general.  Every person comes with a unique set of characteristics,  traits, values, etc.  If life was a one-size-fits-all, it might be easier to understand and cope with, but damn, that would be boring.

Now, what I will say, is that I did date a lot after my D.  I saw a lot of what's out there in that dating pool, and it isn't at all pretty by and large.  At a certain point, I was just done with it because a very high % of the men I come in contact with came waving huge red flags...everything needy codependent issues, to not having any goals or direction, to not having any financial stability or assets, the list goes on and on.  To a woman like me, who was 100% financially stable and gainfully employed, with my own home, my own interests and goals, and liking my own company alone, I certainly wasn't going to waste anymore years than I already had previously,  dating or marrying a man who couldn't keep up or wasn't on my level.  The stunt my xh pulled only served to help me because I knew definitely going into dating again, all the traits, qualities and characteristics I was NOT going to accept.  It helped me treme6 in setting boundaries and keeping my standards high, and if that kept me from finding a partner again, then so be it.  Quite frankly, my life after the D has been the best it's ever been.  If my new guy hadn't shown me just how genuine and truly amazing he is, I would still be single and happily so.  So, I don't think you can just pinpoint one single aspect in what makes women or men act the way they do or make the choices they do.

[Standing Strong]

Hi BB and R2 

Such wonderful responses, thank you! 

After reading what you both wrote..... I have a new question to all the wonderful women here (related, question)...... All women are different (duh  ) I wonder: When you were younger and met your H's (and before that even)...... were you someone who chased? Or not?

I'm getting the impression that some have been very independent all along, which I would think is not typical especially going back in time... but it is becoming more of the norm nowadays. Since we're talking about something that was a few decades in the past for most of the ladies, it would be interesting to know.
If a woman isn't clingy attached at the start and during the M, then there is less to un-cling later (if that makes sense). What do you think about that idea? Would that be true of you? Or would you alternatively fall into the heavy attachment category? I wonder if there is a difference between the two when it comes to the later stages in a M.
I'm a man so it's different for me, but I know I was love-bombed by W and she chased me.... oh boy I loved it too.  HA!! Ours was absolutely a deep attachment type (for a long time, until those pre-MLC years began).
 
There does seem to be a reoccurring theme of mistrust, hesitancy and a desire for space/independence where you are now (wouldn't you say?)...... now this (I think) is totally natural considering everything all of you have gone thru and does put you apart from other women who have not experienced this trauma.  In that way, you are not like other women at all (IMO). You do not have the same shared experience as your peers. Hmmmmm, that's interesting too. I wonder how you've changed internally because of that damage. Is that something you have wondered? What you would have been like had all this not happened? I know I was severely damaged, but it did make me better, and I'm grateful for it. All the women here (I think) are very strong. I would guess too, that the damage endured made all of you much more emotionally mature than normal. I know you all have friends, you don't/didn't see "something" happen in those years among your "normal" peers in the 40's(ish) age bracket? I've asked several women I know (in person) about their friends and if everything is "normal" in their M's, they always say yes very quickly..... and then I ask how many have D'ed recently, or are in the middle of a D, and then when they think about it and I get something like "Oh, I hadn't really thought about it, yeah a lot have divorced recently, already are D'ed or are in the process".
The men on my team at work going back the last 15 years, 75% of were D'ed in their late 30's (That's 15 guys.... I don't know all the specifics, but I do know it wasn't because any of them cheated. They are all guarded and cautious now too. Very similar to what is described here about being ok alone, not rushing to another R, but I know they all would IF they could trust - and it's been described that way to me directly by three of them, with another two cohabitating but not ok with ever M'ing again).
You haven't noticed this? Maybe it's just the groups I run with.     

-SS

[kikki]

From Standing Strong.   The reason I bring this up for women to answer is this: It is generally thought by many men (not all) that at some point in a woman's life, she can (not always) care a lot less about her H as she turns inward, especially during/following empty nesting, 40+, menopause (?) or something else that I've missed (or don't know about).

It's been such a long time since I have posted, that I had forgotten how to quote   Took me a while.

I very much agree with Curiosity and R2T that we are all very much individuals, and our responses and reasons will vary, and that we continue to make choices based on the reasons we did in our younger years, I guess just with more life experience added into the mix.

I do have a particular interest in this topic as I work as a nurse specialist in Gynaecology.  I read this (below) a while ago, and kept the link as it mirrored something that I have noticed about my own life. After giving so much of myself (willingly and gladly) for the collective benefit of our whole family/business, and after the detonation by the MLCer, I realised that it was not an investment I had the energy or desire to make again.  Partly, for me because I do have my three (now grown sons) and partly because I have not met the right person who I feel would add rather than detract from my life.

https://www.vogue.co.uk/beauty/article/what-to-know-about-menopause?utm_campaign=falcon&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR1phtiHtviLMqK9-BiShaekejo4Q229H8DO2O3gLbIiNANYGEcxryyzPBw

"It isn’t all doom and gloom!

While many women dread the perimenopause – and/or have heard their mums moan about it – it can actually be a very positive time and a pivotal moment in life. “The point of the menstrual cycle is to have sex and create another human, whether you do that or not, so oestrogen makes us interested in other people, and more social and accommodating,” says Hill. “When it goes, we don’t care so much about what other people think – and that is a huge gift.” She says it’s amazing to see her clients thrive as they begin to prioritise themselves, and forgo people pleasing in favour of doing what they want, when they want."

I do think that there is a biological/hormonal component to this attitude shift, and because we are all unique 'what we want and when we want it' will be expressed in a multitude of ways, that may or may not involve other people.