[Returned]

Well, gosh, i’m not very often rendered speechless...but blimey.
Not sure I have anything in the way of useful advice but I hope others here who have returned MLCers will chime in.

I’m assuming from what you post that you wanted his return, even after such a long time, as you let him move in to ‘stay’? And that bc you are divorced, you are practically and financially protected regardless of whether he stays or goes again?

I suppose my only thought regarding your ‘now what do I do’ question is that it must feel rather strange to suddenly have this live in xh/roommate. That he is not a lot of what he was before....that the lines must feel a bit fuzzy. And I imagine that it is going to take some time for you to get to learn what kind of version of himself he is now and what feels like an appropriate role for him to play in your life and in family life. I’m sure it feels like one hell of an adjustment though when you have been single and doing your own thing for so long. Does he seem to expect you to behave like the old wifely you? Or to find the adjustment difficult too?

I guess the uncomfortable nub, reading between the lines, is that you’re not perhaps sure why he has done this. That he announced it more than asked? And it sounds as if he still communicates in that marvellous MLC indirect word salad way  so you’re not at all sure what is going on re ow/his old life or what his intentions are.  Or how much of it is about a relationship with you as opposed to anything else. (Which anecdotally is not uncommon, I think, but perhaps a useful reminder that most reconnected LBS would say that they do not come home magically fixed but often still a bit MLCish)

Out of interest, do you have any boundary lines in the current situation that, if crossed, would cause you to ask him to leave? And what does his presence in your life/home now make easier or more difficult with the shape of your own new life that I guess you had to build and that has a lot of new things in it? I would guess that it probably pushes you back towards needing some of those basic LBS skills....a level of detachment and boundaries and consciously reminding yourself to focus on your own needs and GAL?


I guess bc you posted, that suggests to me that you might feel you need some support? Are there particular things that would be useful for you right now? And, wrt to your title question, do you know what you want to do from here and why?

Wishing you and your family all the best.

Treasur I want to take some time to answer you. I didn't answer immediately because your questions required a great deal of thought, and I have been thinking about them

As for whether I wanted his return, I would say that not wanting his return would be both rational and logical. I think any therapist in her right mind would have urged me to move on. That is to say from a justice viewpoint what happened was very unjust and in some ways very cruel, and it is easy to make an argument for not allowing him to return.

However one thing I learned in his absence was that it wasn't that simple. I had built my life around my family, and my xH was the centerpiece of my family. When he left the boys both spiraled downward. After floundering around for a while it became clear to me that if I did not somehow find a way to rebuild the boys would be forever embittered. I realize that this is not true for everyone, some people very successfully build blended families with new partners. But that is other people, and it would be extremely difficult for me to find someone my boys would accept, and who would accept my boys. I myself was dragged into the separation against my will, I have never felt attraction for another man, either before or after the divorce. Which isn't to say someone might not be out there, but just that I had never met that person.

I don't mind taking a traditional role, it is part of the package when you marry men from certain countries. That is to say my husband comes from a country where women cook and housekeep etc. I am not terribly fond of these things, but I think he needs them in order to understand that he is wanted. If I were not to do them it would send an unspoken message that he is not wanted, and that is not what I want him to understand. It does however raise the issue of cake eating, however again I have suspended all claims for social justice at this time in the interest of the emotional health of my family.

As for boundary lines I do have them. The OW is 3000 miles away so at this point I can indefinitely postpone ultimatums. I think that posing ultimatums would be counterproductive for him gaining insight into what he has done. However if I were to perceive he was siphoning resources from my children to the OW that would most definitely be a dealbreaker. Also any attempt to bring the OW to my home or have her interact with my children would be not acceptable (although they have met her in the past). I would of course feel much better if he did not communicate with her, however I keep reminding myself over and over that we are divorced and not in a physical or emotional relationship so I really don't have any rights in this regard. As a man who has been divorced for more than 8 years he can obviously speak to whomever he pleases.

You are right that the most agonizing part is figuring out his intentions. My xH has always had difficulty with sharing his intentions, and this became even worse after BD.  Based on the cruelty of the things he said at the time it would be easy to imagine many terrible things. However the reality after 10 years is that the only terrible things he did to me were his absence, some very unkind and inaccurate comments about me to me and to others, and prancing around in public with the OW in a way that was very humiliating for me. Our divorce was uncomplicated (you keep what you have, I keep what I have). I am not making excuses but at least so far he has not left me homeless or tried to move the OW into my home or made financial demands as has happened with other LBS's. So it is easy for me to imagine terrible intentions, but it remains to be seen what his intentions really are. Worst case scenario would be him trying to use us financially to bring the OW to the United States. I am hoping that is not the case, but since this is conjecture I will wait to cross that bridge when I get there. 

What is really helpful from the group is advice on how to cope with some residual MLC behaviors. As he has stayed here longer some of these behaviors are improving. There is more eye contact. I am working to get him to understand that comments are not criticisms. Part of coping every day is being prudent but not speculating.

[xyzcf]

Returned, I do not think many people can really understand why after all this time, you would "accept" him back into your home and life.

I just spent a lovely afternoon with Mr. xyzcf....and I could say a great deal more...the reality is he has a whole life outside of me that I am not a part of.......that I don't want to know about.

After he left, because I often struggle with why do I allow this.....with absolute clarity the answer always is the same...because I love him.

Love is a very complicated thing. It's not "rational", it's not intellectual or logical.

I do "talk" that I want us to be able to have  "family" time with our daughter, that is very very important to me....but...
sitting on the couch, talking, having a glass of wine, his offer to pick me up tomorrow after I drop my car off, his kiss.....


all the rules, all the boundaries, all the "he doesn't deserve any of this"......in my being is dismissed because of this one thing....I love this man.

I also wanted to say I understand this as well:

I keep reminding myself over and over that we are divorced and not in a physical or emotional relationship so I really don't have any rights in this regard. As a man who has been divorced for more than 8 years he can obviously speak to whomever he pleases.

I read something recently that said something about how he's allowed to live his life the way he wants. Now that is not what I understood marriage to be, and I don't think he did either for many many years...but this seems to be what he wants now.

I don't know, it certainly is confusing that they still want something to do with us and our families.

[Returned]

Hi Returned.

Does he show any remorse? I have always wondered about if they come back. If mine ever did. I toss is ass right back out. But mine treated me so badly. Is he trying to reconcile or he just a mess.
I will have to read your story. I probably did years ago. Good luck to you.

EM5731 He is very attentive and considerate, but he has not as of yet expressed any remorse. However, he has made great progress in his ability to relate to me. For years he had converted me into some sort of evil archetype which bore no relationship at all to reality. He imagined things about me and he told things to others about me that were both fantastical and implausible. Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light. I can tell from his gaze that he now has the ability to see us. One would think that now that he is somewhat in touch with reality he would realize that he committed an injustice. However, that may be a step ahead of where we are at this moment. The first step is for him to realize that his assessment was wrong, only then can he realize that what he put us through was unjust.

[barbiedoll]

Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light.

He hears criticisms in his imagination

.

Hello Returned .  What a story and journey you have been on. I too am just flabbergasted by it all and the length of time he was gone.  Just proof that we have no idea what the future hold. 

Yes. My H will very often interpret everything and spin it to a negative.  He told the marriage counsellor that everything I say, he interprets as a negative. This was especially true after BD when i was trying to talk to him and make sense of the entire mess. I think ( in my H's case ) he heard "negative" to justify having an affair . Rather like " well, I have a nasty mean wife...no wonder I am having an affair .  I also believe my H has a shame based identity..hard to get anything but negative from that core space. He does not like himself very much at all and its hard for him to hear positive in regard to himself.  He "beats himself up" internally and boarders on self loathing ...so negative is his "norm" and his work to do to try to change that. He is working with his therapist on a book about self compassion etc.    My H is very avoidant . So he never ever told me that he feels everything as a negative. He was silent. I had no idea how he was hearing what I was saying until it came up in therapy .

He also has an extreme sensitivity to perceived criticism.  I have spent more time saying " this is NOT meant as any kind of criticism ...but I need to say how I feel" .   Its exhausting honestly.  EVERYTHING is a criticism to him.  He hears thru a filter or a "wound" of childhood trauma that has followed him into adulthood. But the worst of it ( to me ) is he would not say anything.  I had no idea until it came up in therapy .  I could not change what I had no idea was even happening.   All hard work with these complex wounded men .

[Returned]

Even the kindest words spoken by me were misinterpreted into a negative light.

He hears criticisms in his imagination

.

Yes. My H will very often interpret everything and spin it to a negative. This was especially true after BD when i was trying to talk to him and make sense of the entire mess. I think ( in my H's case ) he heard "negative"

He also has an extreme sensitivity to perceived criticism.  I have spent more time saying " this is NOT meant as any kind of criticism ...but I need to say how I feel" .   EVERYTHING is a criticism to him.

At the the time of bomb drop back in 2011 I was worried he was having auditory hallucinations. He kept responding angrily to criticisms which I never said. In several cases I hadn’t even spoken. He is slightly better now but I still have to choose my words very very carefully.

 For example I am quite forgetful and I misplace my keys. But I can’t say I am looking for my keys because instead of offering to help he will answer  “I didn’t take them.” I also can’t mention when we are out of any food item because he will answer “I didn’t eat it” or “ I will get it today” as if I had demanded that. So it is hard to talk about mundane things because he perceives comments as either a demand or a criticism.

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

[UrsaMajor]

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

To be brutally honest - there is absolutely NOTHING that you can do and no way you can phrase anything that it won't trigger him. Why? Because it is HIS trigger and his thing to work out/work through. You can not spend your life wondering if whatever you say is going to be taken wrong or not. I mean, for those people, telling them "Good Morning" and asking how they slept can be seen as an attack/accusation. It is like you ask how did they sleep and they hear that they were tossing and turning and keeping you awake.... which is NOT what you said at all... but that is, for some reason, what they hear..... and there is nothing that you can do about it.  You can only be responsible for what you say, not what they hear.

[titleholder]

It's crazy how these people are so much alike. Appartently my stbxH has had this sort of thought proces his whole life (I knew this a little bit but never in a million years would have expected it to be this 'bad') and I think that MLC makes their way of thinking 10000 times worse. Reality is gone, gone gone.

I concur with UrsaMajor it's their responsibility and their growing proces, not ours. So don't let yourself get sucked in his weird way of thinking. It seems to be that your H still has a long way to go before really exiting the tunnel.

I hope some of the vets can help you with this. I'm still a newbie myself :-)

[MomOfSteel]

It must be frustrating to not even be able to say benign things without him taking offense.  It would feel to me like the period of time right before my H left where everything set him off.  I’m not sure what to do about it, maybe talking to a good therapist who can help with communication?  The problem is it really is his issue and you aren’t doing anything wrong.  It sounds like he’s very defensive and I’m wondering if that’s his guilt coming out.  He knows he messed up, from the cheap seats, maybe he’s still trying to push those feelings of guilt down because he doesn’t want to deal with them. 

[Treasur]

If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great.

Your question seems to imply two things....firstly that you believe that what you say (or how you say it) can influence his reactions and secondly that there is something about how he reacts that is uncomfortable for you bc you are looking for advice on how to change it?

So, let’s take those as separate items so you can unpick them for yourself a bit.

Do you believe that you are responsible in any way for his reactions? If so, what is the evidence for that?
Do you believe that saying less/more/different has a significant effect on his reactions? If so, what is the evidence for that?
And, given his physical return, have you found that you now have some different expectations of how he should or shouldn't behave? That wouldn’t be uncommon or unreasonable, of course, but it might not ‘fit’ how things actually are right now. When you are looking for your keys, for example, is there some small bit of you that wants him to be helpful or get involved in looking for them? (As he was gone for so long, i’m assuming you had some system for finding your keys before which didn’t involve him.)

And how uncomfortable is this for you? Your post had imho a hint of eggshells to it....a sense of if I can only do x the ‘right’ way then he won’t do y? Are you afraid of y happening, whatever that is? Or are you ttrying to fix something bc you don’t much like it? Why does it matter to you that he says these things? Really, why? (And you don’t need to share your honest reflections here, just to take time to consider it for yourself)

And there are no ‘right’ answers to any of these questions, just honest ones for you.
I have never been in your situation but, as others have shared here, it is not an easy one and probably requires  that kind of honesty about what is really going on for you to create an approach to it that works for you.
I can think of several different approaches depending on what sits comfortably for the kind of person you are.

But all of them probably rest on being a bit more detached from the significance of how he reacts. On not picking up someone else’s monkeys, just your own.

And a good ‘solution’ probably rests on understanding what the nature of the ‘problem’ is from your POV....and i’m not sure I fully understand that from what you posted?

[MadLuv]

  For example I am quite forgetful and I misplace my keys. But I can’t say I am looking for my keys because instead of offering to help he will answer  “I didn’t take them.” I also can’t mention when we are out of any food item because he will answer “I didn’t eat it” or “ I will get it today” as if I had demanded that. So it is hard to talk about mundane things because he perceives comments as either a demand or a criticism.
If anyone has ideas as to how to phrase things so as not to trigger that sort of response It would be great

This was happening in my home as well. Right before BD I couldn’t ask where something I was looking for was without him having a total breakdown. I know I got to a point where I found myself saying, “ I can’t figure out where I put the tape measure “ I started turning everything on me to avoid the breakdowns. Then he would say, that was probably me. Let me look. Where if I said, do you know where the tape measure is? He would start literally crying. I’m so stupid. You have a place for it and I didn’t put it there ( there was a tape measure holder right on the door to the garage) I would then have a 20 minute conversation about how it was ‘t a big deal. I put things down all the time wherever……. The low self esteem and self hatred was the worst!!!