[forthetrees]

When MLCer left I designated a set place for the car keys since I would not have anyone else to help look for them- so, commit to always putting them in the same place.

As for the bigger issue, I recommend the website by Marshall Rosenberg for Non-Violent Communication. He boils communication down to the question of what is the intention of the speaker. If you and your husband can both read about this, AND he can train himself to always ask about the intention of your communication BEFORE responding, it will help. Right now he is reacting instead of responding and that does not lead to productive outcomes.

[xyzcf]

I am wondering if we are expecting normal behavior and responses such as being able to engage in a conversation with the MLCer and that they would have some sort of awareness of how their actions/responses affect us? This got me thinking about depression, ( because we have often stated that depression is a big part of the crisis) and so I did a search on "how depression affects the brain".

"There's growing evidence that several parts of the brain shrink in people with depression. Specifically, these areas lose gray matter volume (GMV). That's tissue with a lot of brain cells. GMV loss seems to be higher in people who have regular or ongoing depression with serious symptoms"

"A depression not only makes a person feel sad and dejected – it can also damage the brain permanently, so the person has difficulties remembering and concentrating once the disease is over. Up to 20 percent of depression patients never make a full recovery."

"Results of several MRI scan studies have demonstrated people with depression had a hippocampus volume that was up to 10% lower than people without depression."

When looked at from a physiological effect of depression, are we asking too much to think that they will be able to interact with us in a compassionate and empathetic manner? All these things that we want them to be able to do...just might not be possible.

Is it something like paranoia? I remember Mr xyzcf years ago being at my home when I had a church function here and afterward he said to me "I can read a room full of people really well and those people did not like me"...my perception was very different. The people were friendly, chatted with him and I saw no evidence that they "didn't like him".

We want and have heard of MLCers who come through the tunnel, who return to somewhat of who they once were. Some "return" in a different way...physically they are here but that doesn't mean that emotionally they are capable of meeting any of our needs...even minimally.

My friends ask me all the time why I don't "ask" Mr xyzcf what he wants since he does spend time with me and we do certain things as a family......I truly don't see that it would do any good to ask him anything significant.

And that is why I am thinking, what kind of physiological damage has been done over the years to their brains? Can we ever expect them to engage in a real relationship with us if those parts of the brain have been damaged?

Just my thinking.

I do agree that as hard as it may be, step back and continue to build your own life. It doesn't sound like he's able to or trying to work with you to mend and grow the relationship..but perhaps with time he will feel safe enough or comfortable enough....but as others have said, there is really nothing you can do.

[MadLuv]

A depression not only makes a person feel sad and dejected – it can also damage the brain permanently, so the person has difficulties remembering and concentrating once the disease is over. Up to 20 percent of depression patients never make a full recovery."

I agree with this!! I also agree with your remembrance of how a room of people was perceived. I do feel my XH who has been fighting depression for more than a decade see’s the negative in everything. It really is so sad. It is from this understanding that I still have empathy 

[Returned]

Wow, its great to get so much feedback. Let me see where I can start.

Xyzcf I want you to know that when I read your notes I always value them. Among the crowd you and I are actually the closest both in timeline, in situation, and in attitude. We are both “for better or for worse” LBS, who have been at this for a very very long time so I know you understand how perplexed I am. Yes there are commonalities, and among them is his tendency to perceive enemies where there aren’t any, like the “didn’t like him” comment.

I think just the fact that we are living in the same house, and he is trying his hardest to contribute in a positive way is a huge step forward. I borrowed this attitude from Mamma Bear, the open the door and make no demands approach, and at least so far it hasn’t disappointed me.

Madluv your “I can’t figure out where I left the tape measure” technique is actually a very helpful suggestion. I am very clear that at age 67 xH I am not going to be able to fix or change the way he perceives the world, because this really has nothing to do with me.

Forthetrees our situation is that we are living together as “roommates” but he has not indicated any desire to restore the relationship yet, so things like counseling are not an option. He is also not introspective at all, and so asking him to understand my intention and things like that are really very far beyond his repertoire of possibilities. If I were to make such a request he would feel totally attacked, and it would also cause him great anxiety, because he would likely totally misinterpret my intentions and my request for him to read something would likely be interpreted as a criticism or demand as well.

Treasur I totally get the “not my monkeys” train of thought. However I am basing my decisions on a couple of premises. One premise I have is that his tendency to imagine criticisms or demands may likely never change. This is just who he is at this age. So if we are going to live together it is in our best interest for me to figure out some way of not triggering it. You were right on several of your initial assessments. He did announce he was there to stay, rather than ask permission to stay. Hard to say if it was because of machismo or just because I had always told him "this is your house and your family." Clearly that is a slight exaggeration as to the house, now that we are divorced the house is mine, but I was speaking figuratively and trying to break through his extreme "starting my life over again" fantasy by pointing out that we are still here and we haven't disappeared.

I don’t think of it as walking on eggshells. I am not tiptoeing around the house worrying he is going to get angry.  He has done his best to be pleasant and helpful, sometimes to the extreme. I just feel like our interactions will be happier if I can somehow figure out a way for him to understand my intentions, and to understand that no one is criticizing him.

MomofSteel I can’t really afford therapy right now, both from money and time constraints. I work about 60 hours a week. Besides I think any therapist would think I am crazy to have him back. No sense in paying someone to argue with me.  As for him, I am sure therapy would be beneficial for him to think things through, but any attempt by me to suggest it would be interpreted as a personal attack. So definitely not on the table at this time.

Titleholder for the last month he is way more in touch with reality than he has been for at least 12 years. 1000% improved, way beyond expectations. If I set the bar higher I think it wouldn’t be reasonable.

Ursamajor I agree in theory that I am only responsible for what I say and not what he hears. However I think at his age asking him to rework his thinking may not be a winning proposition. He has made great progress in the last few weeks, but from a practical viewpoint I think it is safer to assume he will not change, and just try to deal with where we are now without trying to change him

[Treasur]

just try to deal with where we are now without trying to change him

I get that. And I think it is important here on HS to respect the choices other LBS make and have a little humility about all the things we do not know and the ways in which situations differ.

Having said that, sometimes one can see something from the cheap seats worth offering up for another LBS to consider. Or discard lol. Either is fine  What strikes me is that there is a kind of logic hiccup? You say as above that you are not trying to change him.....and you are also trying to change his reactions or feelings to what you think you do (and could change) that triggers him....which is of course trying to change him in some way. Do you see what I mean? So, without any judgement at all about your choices, that just seems a bit apples and pears. And logic hiccups tend to imho make life a bit more confusing sometimes. So my best take is that you pause to reflect a little longer on where you stand on the accept vs change spectrum and what you find uncomfortable about how it is right now? Why it really matters to you and what you can honestly influence perhaps? Bc doing nothing much is also a valid choice sometimes? And things change and evolve in ways we don’t always assume, don’t they? Ha ha, I think that is one of the big LBS life lessons, isn’t it, that things don’t always end up going the way we thought they would 

Important too probably to remind yourself that both of you are in a slightly strange situation right now and that there is bound to be some process of adjustment, and trial and error, for all of your family in figuring out some kind of ‘new normal’. Hopefully others who have been in similar shoes, if perhaps different timelines, will come along to share their hints and tips. Wishing you all the best.

[titleholder]

Titleholder for the last month he is way more in touch with reality than he has been for at least 12 years. 1000% improved, way beyond expectations. If I set the bar higher I think it wouldn’t be reasonable.

You know best! Just make sure you take good care of yourself and your boundaries. I wish you all the best and I hope your H keeps improving

[forthetrees]

It saddens me that you accept that he is unable to learn new communication skills. There is a space in which learning a new skill will lead to change and, for me, that kind of change is an acceptable expectation. If what got you to this place in your relationship was related to an incomplete communication toolbox, then it´s worth searching out new tools for both of you. Yes, if you know a trigger it´s worth not deliberately triggering him but at the same time is it realistic for you to be the one testing for triggers? If his triggers are a minefield, do you want to be the one to walk through the field tapping each mine (conversation) to see if he blows up or not? That does not seem like a peaceful healthy way to exist. 

[Akkie1973]

Is it something like paranoia? I remember Mr xyzcf years ago being at my home when I had a church function here and afterward he said to me "I can read a room full of people really well and those people did not like me"...my perception was very different. The people were friendly, chatted with him and I saw no evidence that they "didn't like him".

Oh wow.... You described my H here. He also thought that people didn't like him. And just like you I ha a different perception. :-0

[Finding Joy]

It’s him coming back still in a relationship that gets me.  That says it all after ten years…

You deserve respect.

[Returned]

As he has stayed here longer he has gradually become less defensive and more relaxed. He works very hard at his new job. He appears genuinely happy to be with the kids. He constantly tries to be helpful with me and some of our conversations are almost pre-BD. He is more in touch with reality. However, I am also increasingly aware that this crisis is not just about our relationship. He has shunned/rejected/avoided almost all his friends. Last night I was bringing up the names of his lifelong friends who live nearby and suggested he get in touch with them. As I mentioned each one he dismissed them, and for some of the names I mentioned he appeared visibly upset. He says that they are avoiding him. There may be a grain of truth in this. Some of his replay behaviors were pretty appalling, as well as the things he was saying and the crowd he was hanging with. I don't doubt that people might be avoiding him. However I also think there is an element of him rejecting them, and I worry about him isolating himself because I think that makes him more susceptible to extreme views and manipulation by the OW. My impression is that he has kept his return home a secret, and that of course is a worrisome sign. It has crossed my mind that he might be embarrassed that he has returned home after saying so many terrible things about me and parading the OW around, and that is why he is avoiding his friends, including the friends he is still close with. Being embarrassed has always been a thing with him.