[Evermore]

I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

I agree with this. We know that we can only control ourselves. Hard lesson to learn, but also freeing. We can have hope and focus on our healing at the same time.

We have but this one precious life to live. So we hope for the most healed and fullest life we can have--knowing that we don't control others, but have the powerful ability to control ourselves. Disappointing at first and then freeing and wonderful in the end.

The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel. Other people talk about whether they should give up hoping as though it's a choice; something that they just decide and then pretty much hey-presto, they no longer feel hope! Maybe I'm simplifying it far too much and that's not the case for others at all? I have read posts though of people wondering how long they CAN stand for their marriage (as though they need to make themselves when they'd really rather move on). It just doesn't work for me that way. I still feel love despite telling myself I need to try and move forward and away from loving him. I still feel hope even though I tell myself there is little hope that he will ever again want a close relationship with me. I can't work out how to control that, and really don't want to... which is perhaps part (all?) of the problem? I want to feel how I feel rather than manufacturing my feelings. Not sure. Just know it's bloody hard!

[Treasur]

I’m not sure this is quite the angle I would take on it.
As humans, we have emotions.....sometimes in reaction to external things, sometimes - like we tell kids when they’re Hangry  - because that is just how we feel in the moment...tired or grumpy or a bit down.
Imho the tricksy bit comes with the narrative we add to the feeling. Either about ourselves or others.

Let’s say someone cuts me up when i’m driving and I feel angry or afraid....
I could tell myself that they are an a$$hat...or i’m  a terrible driver....or any number of different stories about it actually.
What the story does not change is that I had an experience and felt angry or afraid.
What the story can tend to colour is how I link that experience to other experiences and perhaps how I act then or in the future.

Or when I went to visit my mother as her dementia unfolded so rapidly.
Sometimes I dreaded it so much I would turn around halfway and not go. Sometimes I cried for hours after a visit. My head was full of thoughts and my heart full of sorrow and deep pain.
What hadn’t changed was my mother’s dementia.....and I had no control at all over whether it would be an ok visit or an awful one, whether she would know who I was or not....my feelings were real, but what I did with those feelings varied depending on the narrative I had on any given day about those feelings. I did not want to accept the reality of how my mother was/is or how it made me feel. All quite understandable. Strangely - and it has taken me years  - it has become easier in the last year or so bc, I think, I have accepted things I couldn’t and let go of expectations of her and me that I held before. And that has changed some of my feelings or at least reduced the strength of some of them. I feel less guilt and helplessness or frustration....and that seems to have made it easier for me to feel love and patience and kindness for her and me.

It’s a pretty normal human behaviour to turn feelings into facts....but again jmo, they are not exactly the same thing. The feeling is a real thing.....but the story we build on the feeling is not necessarily so if that makes sense?

I don’t think anyone here, particularly with the benefit of hindsight, would tell you to not feel how you feel. Or understand that sometimes our feelings can be confusing to deal with and not always easy to deal with. Often tbh I think here on HS we are trying more to encourage people to accept the feelings they have but learn to step away from them enough to explore how they might deal with those understandable feelings in ways that are not harmful to themselves or others. Or indeed contingent on things beyond their control. So, for instance, if you haven’t heard of it, try googling the Stockdale Paradox which has some useful things to say about hope and outcomes.

We feel what we feel. Those feelings move around sometimes in surprising ways over time. And again jmo the challenge for many LBS is finding their own way to accept and respect their own feelings, whatever they might be, and to construct a way of living that feels healthy, constructive, hopeful and peaceful regardless of what their spouse/ex did or is doing or not doing.

[Reinventing]

The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel.

I don't think you are different from other people in having limited control on how you feel. I would have given any amount of money in my power to get rid of the pain, the crushing and all-consuming feelings.

I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

That is why I focused so much on healing. I paid attention to what gave me relief from the excruciating pain. What helped me feel more stable. I did more of what helped me feel stable and less of things that threw me off (e.g. social media). Everything went through that lens.

I didn't give up hope to do these exercises, these things that helped me heal and become a person again. Healing and hope are not mutually exclusive.

A piece of that healing was realizing that my thoughts and feelings are linked (hence the mantras and ways to interrupt obsessing). Who knew? Also, the realization that my XH had every right to live the life he chose. No matter why he did what he did. He is a separate person from me and I couldn't control him.

And I can't control others. But I can control me. So I focused on me, put energy and time into me. I was bound and determined to heal. To lessen feeling the soul-crushing pain, to laugh again, to enjoy the little things in life.

[Treasur]

Could not agree more, Reinventing. I remember a time when I would have given anything to not feel how I felt.

Read this article recently which chimes with what you said above. I really like the phrase ‘winter of the mind’...it felt like a long winter to me  ....but I thought it’s a thought provoking take on how one might move out of survival mode regardless of the cause of the winter. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/mar/20/a-winter-of-the-mind-how-to-escape-survival-mode

[Evermore]

Thanks for your thoughtful thoughts Treasur.

I agree with all you've said when we are talking about transient feelings that we are experiencing because of something that has happened. But I'm not talking about that kind of feeling (and for me, perhaps wrongly, there is a difference).

The feelings of hope and love that I am talking about I don't chuck in the same bucket as those types of feelings that are caused by/affected by something we did/something that happened to us/something that someone did to us etc (anger, sadness, confusion etc).

The feeling of love I'm talking about is just 'always there' and it doesn't change. Like the love we have for our children or our parents or our pets. I don't love my kids more when they're behaving and less when they're being annoying. It's not a transient feeling. It's just a constant feeling. And likewise, I don't love my H less because he's gone off and had a MLC (or whatever). I often feel pressure from people who feel that I SHOULDN'T feel the same way any more. That what he did will automatically, or should automatically, wipe my feelings for him away. Because it does seem to do that for some/many people.

As for the feelings of 'hope/yearning/wishing' that I have, this is different from the love feeling because it's regarding a want/wish that I have. It's like... how to explain... my hope/wish for a closer relationship with him is what I want 'for me'. It's something that flows from him to me (or something I would like to flow from him to me  ). Whereas my love for him is something that flows from me to him and requires nothing from him at all. It doesn't change depending on what he's done or is doing (ie unconditional love). I do feel that there are people who simply can't understand how I can still feel that way after everything that has happened. There is even often an implication that I am disrespecting myself by still feeling this way.

I'm not really sure I'm making sense!  And I've taken up enough of s66's thread (I hope you're feeling stronger BTW s66! xx).

Thanks again Treasur (I very much value these types of discussions, also I have read the Stockdale Paradox before).

[Evermore]

The trouble I seem to have more than others (and I think S66 does too?) is that I have absolute control over my actions; some control over what I think; but only limited control over how I feel.

I don't think you are different from other people in having limited control on how you feel. I would have given any amount of money in my power to get rid of the pain, the crushing and all-consuming feelings.

I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

That is why I focused so much on healing. I paid attention to what gave me relief from the excruciating pain. What helped me feel more stable. I did more of what helped me feel stable and less of things that threw me off (e.g. social media). Everything went through that lens.

I didn't give up hope to do these exercises, these things that helped me heal and become a person again. Healing and hope are not mutually exclusive.

A piece of that healing was realizing that my thoughts and feelings are linked (hence the mantras and ways to interrupt obsessing). Who knew? Also, the realization that my XH had every right to live the life he chose. No matter why he did what he did. He is a separate person from me and I couldn't control him.

And I can't control others. But I can control me. So I focused on me, put energy and time into me. I was bound and determined to heal. To lessen feeling the soul-crushing pain, to laugh again, to enjoy the little things in life.

Thanks for your thoughts too Reinventing (such amazing people here).

I just want to emphasise that I feel I'm healing very well and dealing with all the pain etc pretty darn well these days. I have a happy joy-filled life that I'm very grateful for. But that what I'm talking about I think is different than 'those feelings'. Maybe I'm very weird for thinking the way I do. I feel like I'm well on the path to healing... but still love my husband and still 'want to try again'. I feel like many people who get 'where I feel I am now' DON'T want their partner any more, or at least don't care either way. Of course not everyone. But it does feel like a majority? Again, likely not explaining myself well. Thanks again for the discussion.

[Reinventing]

Yes! It was a part of my journey to realize my feeling of love continued no matter what he did or felt toward me. That my love was really what I felt and owned.

I also came to understand that I could have those feelings and still focus on my healing. In fact, with healing, I am much more able to enjoy those feelings, memories and have empathy for him and what he went through.

I realized that love is not controlling and trying to get someone to do what I want. It is to respect them as a separate person. It took me a long time to understand that, as simple of a concept as it seems to be.

One of the things I wish I had understood when I was young.

[MadLuv]

This is such a great discussion, because as you say you can’t change how you feel by any process you try. I felt like you for so long. For me it took accepting that my reality just was no longer. He had changed how our family would be from now on, he changed my safety in him, he changed my control over how I wanted my life and family to play out forever. When I could finally truly accept that reality and realize even if he came back that not only would things not be the same, but we both would not be the same. This changes everything. I think we hold on to hope that they come back and we can easily rebuild what was lost, but in reality we have to start all over and we don’t get that new relationship fresh start. We get a new relationship with all the old damage of the old relationship, but now we are two different people dealing with a history that almost destroyed us. I have so much love for who my XH was and our family as it was. Do I think family’s can come back from this and start a new? I do, but it would and does take a lot of work and I think more effort than most MLCers have in them.

What worked best for me finally was looking at my life now. My children and my friends. Appreciating those who were showing up in my life . Those who valued me and putting my energy into those relationships. I really have no idea how my XH life will play out. I have told him that if he needs a friend he knows where I am and I will answer that call and that knock always. I mean that, but he is not showing up in my life in any real way. So until that changes he is not a focus. My feelings have changed. What made me Love him Is no longer there as we dont as it stands now have the same morals or values. If he had some epiphany I dont know how I would react. Thats what is kind of great about moving forward and dropping that rope of hope. There can always be a little hope in letting go as well. Nothing has to be set in stone. That opens the door for moving forward and to welcome back anyone you want at any time.

[Schratz66]

Wow, indeed. What a great point of discussion.

Thank you Ready….you are always so spot on and so kind.

I am not against hope, but place your hope in the mindset that you will heal and you will be in a better place regardless of his actions or outcome.

So true indeed and when I asked my therapist what my purpose is right now, she said your healing. And that is truly what I am focusing now. Oddly enough, every time I think of MLC now, I tell myself to focus on my healing and MLC will be what it will be. Hope no longer has this negative thing attached for me, because I felt I was enslaved by hope, but now it is just something I have but not something that I concentrate on.

Thank you Dragon

It really is important to understand our past traumas so we stop the same cycle.

I honestly had no idea how much child hood trauma played into all of this until the last few years. Once you see, you cannot unsee and want to heal to become the best version of yourself and to stop the needless suffering

Treasur,

Very interesting and maybe an aha moment for me.

Let’s say someone cuts me up when i’m driving and I feel angry or afraid....
I could tell myself that they are an a$$hat...or i’m  a terrible driver....or any number of different stories about it actually.
What the story does not change is that I had an experience and felt angry or afraid.

I used to let stuff like that ruin my day – years ago I decided I can be angry for a few minutes and then toss it because it will not matter in 5 hours….not so easy to translate that into emotional attachment feelings like with your mom for example. I think when emotional attachment is involved we have a much harder time to accept reality and release all expectations, because it involves so many different layers of feelings and experiences and some involve our perceived identity...i.e. daughters, wives, etc

Thank you Reinventing,

I didn't feel human, even.

That is when I seriously began reading about how to heal. I didn't think I could literally survive with those feelings.

Exactly how I felt the last few months. For years I was just focusing on surviving somehow and keeping hope. Something switched since then and I truly simply want to focus on healing to become human again. Human as in wanting to live and wanting to experience joy again.

Evermore,

I often feel pressure from people who feel that I SHOULDN'T feel the same way any more. That what he did will automatically, or should automatically, wipe my feelings for him away. Because it does seem to do that for some/many people

I heard that many times as well and I do not agree. The way I look at it anymore is similar to my dad who was also MLC. He was always my dad and I did love him, but accepted that he did not want me in his life. Tough pill to swallow but it did not negate the feeling I had about him. It was his choice, but my feelings remained the same. I am trying to get there with my MLC. I know I will always love him, but I have to let him make his choice of not wanting me in his life. It’s hard sometimes because we want what we want and it is easy to forget that they are also complete humans and have a right to their choices. That was one of the hardest pills to swallow for me…..that I have no right to think my choice is the only valid one for ‘us’ ….. just like our kids…..we can express that their choices are not what we would have chosen but we have to let them go and experience their own.

Thanks for your thoughts too Reinventing (such amazing people here). 

So true – wonderful, compassionate and wise people on here and I am blessed to have found this forum so early on in this journey.

All in all I am still doing great.....mantras, redirecting and focusing on healing my childhood traumas. Currently stationary for a few days again because apparently I have a twisted lumbar vertebrae and my muscles are completely seized up around it. I have never cried in physical pain, but I did yesterday. So, daily chiropractor visits for the rest of the week and hoping it will get moved back around.

Interestingly in therapy my therapist asked me to list all characteristics that my perfect spouse would have and I did. Surprisingly, the current version of MLC only clears 2 out 10 characteristics.....he's tall and intelligent.....lol.......then she asked what would be a deal breaker for me......most people pick drug or alcohol addiction as deal breakers but oddly that is not a complete deal breaker for me, but a liar is something i would have to say a hard NO to.
So, the current version of MLC is not only not a spouse i want but also recently is a liar. Sure, the lies I do believe are not malicious lies, but more his confusion and inability to stick to what he says, but they are still lies. Realizing those two things has helped me quite a bit. The current version is not someone that I treasure......I still love him, but I do not respect him at the moment and I most certainly could not trust him right now adn that was always huge for me. When I told him at the last interaction that what hurt me the most was that he never broke a promise and this time he did - he was shocked....not that he broke a promise, but the fact that I said he never broke one before......they really have no idea how different of a person they are becoming.

D and her fiance are coming in for Easter so I am looking forward to that. I wish everyone a blessed Easter and may the miracle of his resurrection be an eternal miracle for all of us.

Anyhow, thank you again for stopping by and dispensing wisdom and thoughts and opinions - all of which I need and look forward to.

[KeepItTogether]

.I still love him, but I do not respect him at the moment and I most certainly could not trust him right now adn that was always huge for me. When I told him at the last interaction that what hurt me the most was that he never broke a promise and this time he did - he was shocked....not that he broke a promise, but the fact that I said he never broke one before......they really have no idea how different of a person they are becoming.

This!! They really do become different people and have so little self awareness of this fact.  That said, I also think that we have changed. This whole experience has changed us. Some for the better and a little for the worse unfortunately. I think trusting anyone will be a challenge for most of us.  Your realizations of MLC's current character traits are such a huge reflection of your own healing and growth. It is interesting to see how we can still love them and yet acknowledge that they are not what is best for us right now. For our own healing.

Have a wonderful Easter with your D and her fiancé.