[Treasur]

She screams of a person who somewhere realizes she let go of someone who cared so much about making sure she knew how loved she was and doesn’t want to lose that.  You “set the example” of how to love for someone who still  can’t figure out how to return it or appreciate it, but seems somewhere in her depths of her sole she recognizes  it ( again, just my opinion)

Thanks MadLuv but in my opinion we (and I know I have done it too) ascribe too many motivations or ideas to our MLCers behaviour that simply are a projection of our needs. I think we need to do that partly to make things ok or try to make sense or maybe even preserve hope. But I fear they are so broken and disordered there is not such thing at play, it is whatever is bubbling up at the moment is all there is.

As time and work has restored my own normal personal ‘factory settings’, I must admit I agree with this.
I did it. We all do. For a variety of reasons….a trauma response, a bit of denial, our own version of avoidance even, trying to make sense of things we don’t understand in the hope that if we understand something we can fix it, working out with time how to navigate and adapt to new realities.

I think one of my biggest learning points was that even if I think I understand the cause of something it changes much less than I used to think it did.

I also think - with hindsight - that there is a tricky balance to be found in the genuine almost life saving - certainly sanity saving value - of a forum like this where people ‘get it’ and care about you with the risk of digging in to a kind of cognitive bias where one sees everything through an MLC lens.  Again jmo, but I think an LBS lens might be more useful….we know more about it after all. The behaviour of our ex/spouse and details of our situations may vary but the common ground of what it feels like to be an LBS and what we have learned together about the most helpful, or least damaging maybe, ways to deal with that is imo something we can more usefully share.

Nowadays, I think I see it more simply in a way. Even if I recognise that I wouldn’t have wanted to hear that simplicity as a newbie or perhaps been able to do too much with it for a while. For whatever causal label one assigns, without even labelling it with other value terms like good, bad, bonkers, broken, disordered etc, these folks we used to love and trust are no longer able or willing to have a reciprocal respectful relationship with us. Whether it is about can’t or won’t doesn’t change actions and effects. They cease to be trustworthy and they prioritise their needs and wants to the point of excluding others almost entirely. They leave bc they choose to leave. They look like someone who no longer values what they used to value bc they no longer value those things. Or us. Imho it’s hard enough for us to get that practical reality without trying to get how or why they do. Or how they square all their own mental circles about it.

Again jmo, but with hindsight, I think the real challenge for most LBS is accepting that at BD there is no We left. And then figuring out what you need to do, usually in baby steps, to protect yourself and your own life from the most damaging aspects of what is happening. And being as kind to yourself as you can be that this is not a very normal life experience and that it isn’t about who you are or anything you did or anything you could do in future.

That’s not an easy pill to swallow, is it? And it takes a bit of time to see that sometimes life events happen to you or around you but not because of you.

[marvin4242]

I have a question Marvin. Was wondering why do you have so much interaction with her? Since you are in a new relationship.

On the seeing things and hope. Maybe. I can see that. I personally have hope that my XH will figure something out and reengage with his kids. We do see reconnections. I’m sure not wishing on a star , however! Haha

MadLuv we do not have any kids so I am in a very different situation with those of you who have had kids that have collateral damage and would like to have a relationship with their other parent. I can't even imagine how to navigate that minefield.

I have stated before because we do not share a life, I really have detached from her for a long while now my approach has been to mirror exactly her communication. When she disappears that is what happens, when she engages in light banter I simple respond like I would a co-worker. Most of her interaction have to solely with her, her needs and she contacts me to "get" something, whether it's an actual thing or as an anchor check.Since her breakdown she seems incapable of showing any empathy or even registering anyone else as a person outsider of herself, except of course the OM who has become her "soul mate."

At this point in my life none of it makes any difference. At most she is a rare annoyance to me. And considering our lives are separate and there are no kids there is no urgency to finalize a legal divorce. And truth is even if she wanted one I have no idea how he could even go through the most basic steps to execute one.

Finally this is a person I have know for a long while. For everything that has happened I wish her no ill will, and in fact I hope one day she finds her way to peace and happiness. She seems to get some sense of security from being at the house and by having some contact with me. Considering I read nothing into it and if it helps her in any way why not? At this point if she wanted to have the house just to herself that would work for me as I have moved on.

[Treasur]

Thanks for spelling out the circumstances of your situation, Marvin. It’s a good reminder that what is do-able for different LBS over the longer term is a function of more than just our emotions or their behaviour but also things like kids, money and other resources. As you say, if it doesn’t cost you much emotionally or practically, then it’s easier perhaps to let things be as they are. I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that there is such a thing as sustainable standing dependent on some rather practical issues which vary from one situation to another. Not at all a one size fits all, right?

[marvin4242]

Treasur absolutely. I do not for ONE SECOND believe that my situation in any way compares to the horror stories I have read and heard. The emotional, financial, health and sometimes physical damage I have heard over and over from other LBSes truly horrify me and I have to say my situation, as bad as it was, in no way compares. And all this before any children are involved.

I also had the fortune (or misfortune) of having had some previous significant emotional challenges in my upbringing and in my life. This meant that before all this I had engaged in therapy and had to learn a lot of skill and understanding. These tools in a lot of way helped shield me from some damage. I have shared before that it took me around 2-3 months to discover things were really not normal with my wife. That didn't mean that I could just move on, but the understanding and coping tools I had did help me somewhat. And I re-engaged in therapy 3 months after first BD. I do realize this is not an option for most. But that along with some limited trauma therapy work really helped me enter a new phase in my life. I didn't choose this path, but once I was thrown over the cliff metaphorically there was no point trying to deny it or to try to claw my way back to the person who pushed me over in the first place!

[MadLuv]

Thank you Marvin. I was curious. I also think I would do the same. As my therapist says. He isn’t giving much is he? So, I don’t give much either. We do have children and so I think I have to have hope for them,so I stand for friendship. However, that for me can only happen when I can  believe in his words.  So, that was my reason for my question. I do have boundries now and if he belittled me I would not engage in any conversation. That was my main reason for the question. Even if unaffected I would not tolerate that. I don’t engage in anything disrespectful, but I no longer react. I am kind and wish him a good day and then don’t engage again until I have to for business.

I don’t consider myself a newbie anymore or delusional on who he is or where he is. I dont know now if he is capable of have a deep connection with anyone.  I do have to read his actions and words to know what to mirror in my response. That is when I decide now if I communicate or not.  I’m sure there will come a time like you when I can listen to the nonsense and not care. Right now it causes some discomfort for me to hear a broken man. Not for me, but for him. I think that is due to needing him to be a father and knowing that may never happen. With that they lose a sister and a father. One not preventable and one seemingly preventable, but maybe not.

This was a good conversation to have and I appreciate yours and Treasurs response to it.

[Nas]

Pre-coffee, hope I make sense. Last night I watched the series finale of Deep Space 9, which in my opinion is one of the better character driven Star Trek series. There was a love story between two characters, Kira and Odo, and in the finale, Odo decided he had to go back to his homeland to save his people, leaving Kira behind.

She accepted and let him go in such an immediate and graceful way and my immediate thought was that when someone we love goes away from us, it’s a change and it’s hard and it hurts. But for me at least, it’s different and not devastating, because they would still be someone out there who loves me even if they’re not right beside me. That is so different than someone who chooses to leave and tell me on the way out the door that I was less than or that in fact, they wouldn’t even be affected if I was dead, or (insert damaging leaving MLCer spew here).

All of us loved our spouses for many years. When they leave, they do so in damaging and cruel ways, and for most it’s so different from what the way they were throughout the relationship. Even when we detach and move on, we still remember that they were a big part of our lives. As others have said, everyone’s circumstances are different, but to me, just as there is something beautiful about loving someone, there’s something equally as beautiful in the act of letting them go, remembering the parts that were beautiful, remembering the friend that they were to us, the friend we were to them. (This of course doesn’t make sense in all cases. For a time, many struggle with thoughts of whether the beautiful parts were ever real and many land on “it was real because I was genuine in my caring for them.” In my situation, for instance, there’s no beauty to be found in any aspect, I let him go because he wanted to destroy me, and the love I had for him all those years is not a beautiful memory for me. But we all have different stories.)

It would be very damaging to hold onto the idea of “MLC” and allow a destructive or abusive person to remain in one’s life simply because one is holding out the hope that the MLC will run its course or that the MLCer is some trapped prisoner whose every action needs to be interpreted like a smoke signal. “ reading between the lines” is IMO damaging in any relationship. But if one is detached and moving on with their life and the MLCer is not having an adverse affect on them, I don’t see why one wouldn’t allow them in their life in whatever way they feel comfortable. Just as we learn a lot from someone like Acorn, who shares with us some perspective from her husband who has been doing the work, we also can learn a lot from those who share their experiences with an MLCer who is still lost.

A song (maybe for  Kira and Odo 😉):

https://youtu.be/JeSXEuhQKqw

[xyzcf]

I recently had good friends visit me. A couple we were quite close to when our kids were young. I had visited them about a year after BD.

In a discussion concerning my friend's father, who left his mother, for an OW, the comment was made about how happy they were to see me in a much better place. They said "when we saw you years ago, you were terrified of Mr xyzcf." I responded back "terrified?"...and they both agreed. I had never thought about it in those terms.....

My husband was not one of the nasty and hateful MLCer's. Like many here, contact with him used to cause me  a lot of anxiety and distress. He contacts me and I mirror back to him. I often write about how contact can be possible and can be a "good" thing. It allows you to have some insight into the changed person they have become, sometimes I needed that to remind me he is not the man I was married to.....but this was my main reason why contact with him was important.

I did not want to continue to have any fear in  hearing about him or seeing him. I didn't want that to shake me or send me into a state of distress.....one of the things I worked hard for was taking back my power, the knowledge that I had a choice to see him or not. That has brought me the peace I lost after BD, the divorce, all the sadness......

Having a child is also another reason, and in our case there are specific things that make being together with our daughter a good thing. My daughter and I spent Mother's Day weekend together, and periodically we visit this issue and both come to the same conclusion about his being included. Not all children want to have a relationship with their parent who left them as well and the LBS parent has a lot to deal with either way to support their kids.

I do have beautiful memories of our years together. It used to be painful for me to think about those places and things we both enjoyed, many years shared. I don't want to lose those years by not being able to remember them without it causing me to be sad.

There is freedom in accepting that even though I did not choose this, he has gone his separate way and indeed so have I.

In my yoga class this weekend, my teacher spoke about change. She has some guests visiting her that she has not seen for 10 years and every single one of them agree that their lives had not turned out they way they expected them to have been.

As has been mentioned several times, each situation is different. Our life stories are different and backgrounds and they all contribute to how we  make decisions about what is best for us, for our families and I still am willing to consider what is "best" for him.....in the time that we spent together with our daughter.

I can relate to what marvin wrote:

Finally this is a person I have know for a long while. For everything that has happened I wish her no ill will, and in fact I hope one day she finds her way to peace and happiness.

Not everyone will have the opportunity to stay in touch. Many spouses disappear or continue to be mean and hateful, or the LBSer doesn't want contact.....follow what is best for you.

[MadLuv]

Our life stories are different and backgrounds and they all contribute to how we  make decisions about what is best for us, for our families and I still am willing to consider what is "best" for him.

THIS!!!!  That is exactly it!!  I have said many times that I hope and am capable of being in a situation like yours with my XH, but I am also aware with who he is married to that he will not be able to reconnect with his kids in a healthy way.

I think hope does not have to be damaging if you are moving forward and are not standing still waiting for it. If I am honest with myself ( which I feel I am now) I don’t think he will ever face his destruction and demons that put him here. I had to make a choice as it was then disrespectful to my kids. ( if that makes sense) If he reaches out then I will Mirror what he is giving. I have empathy for him, but also for my kids and our rebuilding. I have set a good foundation for a friendship if he is capable or needs one. As my sister has said, “ you are the best ex-wife I have ever seen” I think I have been. Showing grace and compassion for him and the family Left behind.

I so love everyone’s thoughts and perspectives as with each you may see something you didn’t consider and that helps us all. It certainly has helped me.
Sorry, Marvin for hijacking your page from my question

[MadLuv]

I also dragged this over from why’s journalling page where Marvin wrote When and IF any of us get to the true point of detachment then we can choose what if any advantage there is to interact with our MLCers. But until then no or limited contact and firm boundaries are critical to recovery and healing. And I say this as a someone who still has contact with my MLCers six years out, but I definitely have had extended periods of no or limited contact. Initially in the early days, and now when her behaviour swings back into being highly destructive. I don't need to stick my hand in the blender in the name of caring

This is exactly how I feel!! Sometimes I don’t convey correctly what I mean to say, but this is it!!

[marvin4242]

MadLuv nothing to be sorry about and there is no hijack this is a great discussion and I hope useful to others.