[MadLuv]

I agree. There is no such thing as unconditional love in the broad sense. If there is, then it is a very unhealthy love.  We all have boundaries and non acceptables!!!I I definitely showed my XH unconditional love in many ways, but then I questioned why?? Why do I feel this way, why is he lying?  Why am I accepting so little while giving so much?? When we put someone continuously over our own well being and at the cost of our own values it is definitely not unconditional love anymore. It becomes abuse. Not all abuse leaves visible marks.

[Nas]

Absolutely agree. I should copy the reply I just put on the links and articles thread and put it here. 😉

I think what I see around me often is the term “unconditional love” being used synonymously with “forever, no matter what” or as a proxy for attachment. The best way I can express it right now is that viewing anything as forever almost makes it so rigid that it diminishes it, if that makes sense.

[xyzcf]

RCR's articles contain a section entitled "The Unconditionals" which include Grace, Agape and Forgiveness. She defines agape as:

Agapé is love in all circumstances; it is absent of feeling--the rational assessment of value--thus without judgment or condition. It is a freely given gift, soft yet firm, an action borne of choice, and devoid of the uncontrolled and chaotic energies of emotion. It has no requirements of the love-object, being independent of lovable qualities or merit and exists regardless of circumstances; agapé does not require a person to like its object; it does not require one to lie across the doormat, allowing abuse. Such actions enable poor and abusive choices and behaviors. Yet agapé is love amidst wise and poor choices and behaviors.

https://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/self-focus_unconditionals_agape.html

Like everything, words have different meanings for people based upon our belief systems. In the Christian faith, we are commanded to "Love one another as I have loved you' and that includes your enemies and those who hurt you.

Who we are, what our FOO life was like all impact how we perceive love and how we give love.

I am doing some inner work, to do with aging and the health issues I am facing and recently came across the 7 archetypes. Not surprisingly, I turned up as the Mother Archetype...we also have parts of the other archetypes in our makeup that might be more or less pronounced at different points in our lives.

The Mother archetype:
"You are a kind and compassionate soul- nothing matters more to you than the people you love...let unconditional love be at the root of everything you do. How can you make the world a better place today? Pour love into everything you do. Move with love, speak with love, touch with love."

Such fascinating stuff and if I am to embrace who I am, then it is of no surprise of my concern, empathy and compassion for the MLCer.

I also am convinced (and I know that others are not) that their crisis is a pathological condition.

"Unconditional love" or whatever word you use to describe this action can be detrimental if the LBSer thinks that they can use this to bring the MLCer back. It is NOT a tool to manipulate or coerce. It doesn't mean that you accept abuse or put yourself in any kind of harm.

I have found that it gives me space and has allowed me to let go of fear of being together, which remains essential to our family's wellbeing. It is a choice and cannot coexist with bitterness, anger, or unforgiveness.

In other words, it is something that brings peace and calm into my life.

But as I said, each one of us is different. Understanding our own inner world can give us immense help in coping with the world, the broken relationships, wars, political craziness, racism...so much is contradictory to the concept of "unconditional love"...my actions towards my husband are also the actions I try to live in all aspects of my life.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails"

1 Corinthians 13:4-7

[marvin4242]

I think it is important to define what "love" means to each person. To me love as a word is overused, used incorrectly and can have many different incarnations. For example to me feeling "love" towards humanity is better defined as having empathy, to see outside of ones own self referential lens, to be able to hold the feeling and needs of someone else WITHOUT confusing or combining it with ones own. So the idea of "Christian love" as I understand it is closest to this idea. Because I believe if we can truly do this then we will be moved to action, to help, to provide, to care.

Part of what I have seen in myself is that we are flooded with a mythical version of love in many forms. I don't mean there is no kernel of truth in what we repeat as a story, rather it has become a "Disneyfied" version of the core idea. And I have always found absolutes and simplified definitions are almost never correct (see what I did there? )

[xyzcf]

 

When I read you question "what does love mean" my head took me immediately to the Hollywood  quote from Love Story "love means never having to say you are sorry" really? To me that is not love.

Of course our world does see love "Disneyfied" as well as disposable.

I also read and recoil alot from the word "karma" being used on HS as I would get no delight of something bad happening to him, or anyone else.

Words do affect us and they apply to our world view. How we define those words will influence our actions and thoughts.

[marvin4242]

Absolutely agree. I should copy the reply I just put on the links and articles thread and put it here. 😉

Here you go

I’ve always found a little bit of tension between the ideas of unconditional love and “love is a choice.” The second one I believe in. Choice is a key component in going in to a relationship. No one has ever tripped over a homeless person on the street and said “oh no, I’ve fallen into unconditional love because I have no choice over who I love and this is the person the universe has sent me to love.“ That’s a snarky comment of course, and coming a little bit from my own wounding, but the point is that in choosing a partner, people look for certain criteria to be met. That alone is a condition under which we choose to start a relationship.

I remember having a conversation with my first therapist after BD, a few months after, and I remember telling her “I want to say out loud that I don’t love him but for some reason I feel like that makes me very very bad person.” I was afraid to stop “loving” him, actually, because something twisted and tangled up with trauma bonding had me believing that loving him would bring me love.

But that’s not how it works. We do choose who we love, but we don’t get to choose who loves  us. And that makes us feel so helpless sometimes that we forget the choice is always at least partially ours.

Choice is always there. There’s choice going in, choice all the way through, and choice coming out, but people somehow deny themselves that conscious choice beyond the initial choice at the beginning. And I actually think making individual choice a key component is empowering and can strengthen relationships with others, but also with ourselves (especially if we’re healing from trauma. Imagine if I had just realized a lot earlier and I had chosen myself instead of him).

[Treasur]

I’ve found this to be a part of my own LBS untangling in working out what ‘love’ means to me in all its’ different forms.

And it’s a deeply personal process that is often linked to all kinds of other issues - our experience of family perhaps, our faith in some cases, what marriage means to us, the other kinds of love we see and experience in our lives.

Having a dead father and a mother removed by dementia, as well as a vanished spouse, provided some interesting juxtapositions for me tbh. How I could love a dead father quite easily even if he wasn’t here, but found it much harder to work out how to love a mentally absent mother who is still physically here but I find it painful to see. What, if anything, was left of my surprisingly deep love for my former husband who had done many things that were quite cruel. How I might wish I could do love as I once did but also had to accept that I didn’t. Reminding myself that just bc I did not have certain kinds of love in my life, or that this kind of love hadn’t turned out to be as I thought, did not necessarily mean that this kind of love did not exist in the world. Tbh, Marvin, I am not even sure I would say that parent-child love is a given let alone unconditional….i know plenty of folks, either as kids or parents, for whom that is not so. I have also witnessed quite a few examples of what I would see as something quite close to ‘unconditional love’ and found it a rather hopeful, joyous thing to see.

How it ‘should be’ or how we ‘wish it to be’ (as per Corinthians) is not always how it is,  is it?

And of course, as always with these things, the underlying question underneath the questions, why does it matter to me? And what, if anything, do I do with whatever I conclude?

Very personal process imho. Maybe a real example of ‘it’s not you, it’s me’, ha ha.

I suppose I wonder if both things can be sort of true at the same time….if most of us love with some underpinning conditions AND if/how/who we love can also be a choice? My best sense is that I see love as a thing that strengthens and grows things and people, rather than weakens and destroys them, so if the experience feels like the latter, that usually is a clue to me that at best it’s love mixed up with some other stuff. Or not love (as I see it) but need or attachment or obligation or something else.

I suppose I also think that pushing love in the face of someone who has said or done things to show that they do not want your love is probably not love to me (although I did it for a long time lol) That accepting someone’s wish to sever a connection or remove you from their lives might also be a kind of love?

There was a young man in Gaza, killed a couple of days ago by shrapnel from a bomb, who decided some months ago that he was going to grow things every day where he was and posted online about it. Bc it represented life and hope and a few vegetables to feed people. That’s what unconditional love looks like to me in practice, I think……a small thing in practice that is actually a rather big thing.

[MadLuv]

I have always struggled with the word “love”  I agree it is so loosely used. People tell me, love you. Love ya…. Like hello!  I mean, no way they love me. Fond
Of, like etc. yes. I use love for my kids and grandkids and a few, but not all of my nieces and none of my nephews. I use it when I feel it. When there loss would be significant in my life. When their presence makes a difference. My parents never told me they loved me until I was older. My mother started using it very late in life before her death. Almost like she realized she should have, but it still lacked the depth of meaning. The last time I saw my Dad before he died he told me he loved me. I felt it. I knew he always did, but never could express it. Im intentional when I use it and I mean it.

[Standing Strong]

How interesting.......

It sounds like some big questions and inner work......

I can say (for me)...... does unconditional love exist? Yes. Without a doubt. No question about it. Does this mean "most" people know or understand what this is? Absolutely not..... which is very sad. After all, how does someone know what it is, if they have never experienced it, were never taught it, never "seen" it?
Furthering this, an LBS trying to apply something they themselves don't understand can be discouraged and then resultingly question the concept of "love" since it doesn't appear to "hold". This would be even more true and trying as time passes and more things are revealed to be temporary. In this context the question of eternal and undying love would also naturally be questioned.
Real love isn't a Disneyfied love..... that is just a perversion of what love actually is. It is not the ideal at all. If anything, what they portray is just amplified infatuation supposedly lasting forever. HA!!! 

What is love? Love isn't just joy and happiness, peace, stability and safety....... inside of Love is also longing, sometimes pain, and always hope.
Love is the rejoicing of good in someone's life, and the hurt and concern over the bad which destroys people.
In all of it is patience, and the desire that in the end...... someone will be sorted out and fine..... even absent our knowledge or presence.

In a romantic setting, love is the seeing of one another..... because we all hide pieces, and to show someone our true self is to invite an opportunity for criticism, scorn, rejection, and then wounds.
It is love that shows kindness & patience to our worst bits, and hopes that they will be better...... and assists in that endeavor with genuine affection.

It is NOT our strength that needs love, it is our weakness..... and our love is not meant to glorify a projection of someone else, but instead the core, which is beautiful and flawed.

How many believe in their heart they are beyond love, beyond redemption, and unworthy of love? Not just MLC'ers, LBS's, or troubled souls..... everyone has this at one point or another... or all along.

To question love is to admit that it is needed. Many will never know what it is, experience what is it, and consequently not know how to give it.
It is not a trinket to be bartered or traded, but it is valuable beyond measure.  It's given freely, or not at all.
It has no conditions. It has no bounds. It is the only thing which lasts throughout a life and past death.
Love does not judge. Love is gentle, and kind, and forgives.
It lives in a soft heart.... and finds no place in a hard heart.

-SS



 

[xyzcf]

Beautifully said SS. I was hoping you would come by.

The love you have shown and continue to show your wife is an excellent example of unconditional love for you truly want her to be well.