[marvin4242]

As I was reading other thread updates something became clear to me that I wanted to share. A couple of days ago my wife, for the first time in a few years, actually sent me an attacking and aggressive text. First unlike before I found myself getting a little angry, which is not unexpected. I firmly but gently responded that her text and tone were uncalled for, and she in her own way tried to "walk back" what she had done. I do know that right now her stress and anger levels are once again spiking (no idea why), to the point where a long time helper texted me to tell me she is planning on quitting. I had to intervene (I am not home right now and have not been for a while just to clarify, my wife has been staying at the house).

But what suddenly crystallized for me this morning was this: where I am today the relation I had with my wife at its best would no longer be enough. I know back then, where I was, what I had experienced before and what I expected meant that our relationship was something very important and overall satisfying at that time. But now I would no longer be willing to stay nor would it be worthwhile. I do not say this because of everything she blew up, that changes nothing. But I believe the work I had to do, and my additional understanding and changing myself to not put externally what only I can provide to myself has changed things irrevocably for the better. No I do not wish what I had to go through on anyone, but as many before have said having walked through the rubble and destruction and pain I seem to have gained "transferable skills," a greater sense of peace and freedom.

I sill feel sadness for what my wife is going through, but that is her journey and her path to follow. I do hope she finds a way out of where she is. And I will say what has been said by so many before me: do not sit around waiting for your old life back, start creating a new better one. Better just means one where you work on yourself and become your own best friend/resource/nurturer regardless of or in spite of the external circumstances.

Song for the mood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIyrLRixMs8

[MadLuv]

I agree Marvin. You can miss the past, but it is just that. The past. Somehow seeing that clearly and realizing if you choose to stand that it will never be that again. Not for you or your MLCer. So, then you have to also realize that what ever initiates this crisis in the first place they still will walk with forever and for some they will never be able to work through it all or there may be residuals left that would make a healthy relationship a challenge forever.

So, I agree in many ways that I also am at a more calm , peaceful and healthier place as well. I dont miss that chaos. That doesn’t mean you dont miss what was. I also like you hope my XH works through his issues and that at some point we all see a part of him reemerge. My kids want their father in their life, but they dont need who he is now.

[HeavenlyFocus]

But I believe the work I had to do, and my additional understanding and changing myself to not put externally what only I can provide to myself has changed things irrevocably for the better. No I do not wish what I had to go through on anyone, but as many before have said having walked through the rubble and destruction and pain I seem to have gained "transferable skills," a greater sense of peace and freedom.

Needed to hear this today after a tough couple of weeks.  I 100% agree on the skills and growth that has occurred within me for going through this MLC experience.   My focus for the future is on my own growth and path to peace.    Thank you Marvin for continuing to share your story.

HF

[marvin4242]

It's been a little while since I posted anything, and mainly that is because there is nothing to post. As I have said before my STBXW has settled into a particular place where she is by no means happy, she fluctuates from somewhat to very anxious, still writes tons of notes to herself every day for basic daily tasks, etc. She still acts anywhere from civil to almost pretending like nothing has happened and everything is as it was years ago. And as the advice that is given here so often I really did detach and have not at all read anything into what she does, says, and our lives are completely separate at this point with the exception of financial and house sharing details.

But something really snapped into focus for me in reading some of the posts of recent newbies and I thought it may be helpful. I realized a while back that when my relationship with my wife was very good (before her fracture) we were very close, we communicated openly, were each others best friend, and had a lot of fun. Always. We were never bored, we did things together and separately and I really had very few issues or complaints (can't speak for her obviously).

But even I had made a very big mistake in that I had stopped truly viewing us as two completely separate adults. We were a single unit, and although we were very independent and would even spend weeks apart at times my internal state had lost a clear separation between me and "us." I have seen over and over that the best model for relationships is one where there are 3 people in the relationship, the 2 participants who are unique and completely separate individuals and the "3rd person" which is where the 2 people join and create the relationship. This is important because if I had managed to hold that idea clearly I would have NEVER assumed that my wife should have been there, I would have NEVER tried to "mind read" or think that I had any rights or have any demands. Because what happened to my wife is purely hers, not mine. And the only component that is impact for "us" was the "3rd person," that relationship. It died the moment of the first BD. But if I had kept this clear emotional separation I would have been able to understand, move on, and not spend any energy in reading tea leaves, think incorrectly that I knew of understood or was entitled to ANYTHING.

I know it is scary and maybe it goes against the made up "romantic ideal" that this is the truth of any relationship. But truthfully if this is not how a relationship operates then it absolutely is co-dependent, enmeshed and unhealthy. And I do see what in the anguished thoughts and actions of so many newbies, because just like me they assume that there was a unit, indivisible, and that any action that occurs is directly aimed at them or that they have any ability to impact that other person by their choices. But if we truly understand there is a 3rd entity and that either part can diminish or terminate this 3rd entity it would help us keep clear boundaries while still allowing us to have healthy and fulfilling relationships. And it fits perfectly with all the advice given, don't assume anything, live your own life, there is no "us," only you and your MLCers.

[HeavenlyFocus]

I know it is scary and maybe it goes against the made up "romantic ideal" that this is the truth of any relationship. But truthfully if this is not how a relationship operates then it absolutely is co-dependent, enmeshed and unhealthy. And I do see what in the anguished thoughts and actions of so many newbies, because just like me they assume that there was a unit, indivisible, and that any action that occurs is directly aimed at them or that they have any ability to impact that other person by their choices. But if we truly understand there is a 3rd entity and that either part can diminish or terminate this 3rd entity it would help us keep clear boundaries while still allowing us to have healthy and fulfilling relationships. And it fits perfectly with all the advice given, don't assume anything, live your own life, there is no "us," only you and your MLCers.

Thank you Marvin.    This the most profound thing that I learned during this past 3 years of craziness.   I realize now that after my XW's life-threatening illness 10+ years ago, our relationship become codependent and unhealthy.   I can say now that I am a very good place although my XW appears to be still in the thick of her crises.

Hoping this helps other during the early part of the crises.   You can find peace no matter what happens with your MLCer.

HF

[Nas]

I’ve been practicing nonattachment (key word: practicing) and the idea  of a separate “third entity” really resonates in a lot of ways. In non-attachment, when a relationship ends, of course you still grieve the loss, but acceptance comes more easily because you’re a whole individual who finds validation from within and you haven’t attached expectations to your partner or the relationship. It’s expectation that really drags us into the abyss.

[MadLuv]

Marvin-
I think all that is so true and valid. Where I continue to find an issue is with the children.  We can detach, but it is very hard to completely move forward if you have an ex spouse who has walked out on his kids and grandkids. They cant get another father. That puts a very heavy burden on the parent left behind. I hear they are adults. They can handle the relationship. They do. There is none, but the confusion and pain alters them. The non intact family is their reminder.

[KayDee]

Marvin, your relationship sounds a lot like mine. And this 'third entity' idea has got me thinking. I have reflected a lot this last 15 months and I know for sure that I was not co-dependent. Perhaps my H was though. While I agree with the principle of three strands, I see much more complexity. A marriage type partnership cannot be silo'ed in this way, it is intrinsically interwoven with our individual lives. We co-create so many things - children is the obvious co-creation - but also a home, an extended family, friends. It determines where we live, thus where we work, and by extension our lifestyle - eg. the type of exercise we might do depending on say urban as opposed to rural living. This in turn effects our body, our health (I could go on - you get the picture ). I may be stating the obvious, but we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity. And this means we must negotiate and compromise at times. I was really aware of when I was compromising to continue a life with my H, but to me, in balance, the scales tipped towards living with H. So, arguably, when one compromises, we 'lose' a bit of our individual self. But this is what a relationship is, is it not?  Adjust our shape to work with the adjusted shape of another. And we benefit, good relationships are rewarding.  I don't see this as co-dependence, I see it as the investment and risk of being in a loving, bonded relationship.

Perhaps I am being too black and white - just my musings really. And it's been interesting for me to consider this, as I grieve the loss of my marriage, which involves untangling much of the above and quite often, conflicting emotions about my H. So thank you for sharing!  I can certainly. see the third entity idea working extremely well in a relationship where each person keeps home, finances, diary etc separate. I do know some people like that. I guess it's down to what we choose.

[marvin4242]

I’ve been practicing nonattachment (key word: practicing) and the idea  of a separate “third entity” really resonates in a lot of ways. In non-attachment, when a relationship ends, of course you still grieve the loss, but acceptance comes more easily because you’re a whole individual who finds validation from within and you haven’t attached expectations to your partner or the relationship. It’s expectation that really drags us into the abyss.

I read the article you posted and it has so much wisdom. In addition to non attachment the idea of observing our feelings and reactions and NOT becoming them in itself is so important. It doesn't mean we don't hurt or do not feel, rather we get to swim in the lake of the feeling rather than stuck at the bottom holding a rock in our lap.

Where I continue to find an issue is with the children.  We can detach, but it is very hard to completely move forward if you have an ex spouse who has walked out on his kids and grandkids. They cant get another father. That puts a very heavy burden on the parent left behind. I hear they are adults. They can handle the relationship. They do. There is none, but the confusion and pain alters them.

I have no children so I am not speaking from experience. But when children are adults they are at a point where they are responsible for and have to decide what all relationships, including the ones with their parents, mean to them and how they live with expectations and lack. As the remaining parent all you can do is be the best parent you can be, you only have the ability to be part of your relationship with your kids. If we truly realize that the other parent is not a part of us, that we have no ability to shape their relationship and how they feel why can't you move forward? This is a question, not a statement to be clear.

I may be stating the obvious, but we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity. And this means we must negotiate and compromise at times. I was really aware of when I was compromising to continue a life with my H, but to me, in balance, the scales tipped towards living with H. So, arguably, when one compromises, we 'lose' a bit of our individual self. But this is what a relationship is, is it not?

Great point. Thinking about it this is a choice that each of us make and we choose to what degree. I absolutely agree we choose, compromise, adjust to create any relationship. But question is at what point is a compromise costing us a part of ourselves, at what point we have put to much of our needs and desires into creating this third "entity" and at what cost. Even if we are not emotionally co-dependent what does it mean if we find the benefits and satisfaction of a relationship with someone else as being more than our satisfaction and benefits of being "ourselves?" If one end of the spectrum is living a completely satisfying life but alone, and the other end is to subsume ourselves completely in the name of compromise where is the correct place to land on this spectrum? My experience has been that most people in long term relationships tend to move too far towards the later, which unfortunately means no longer have a clear bounded sense of themselves outside of a relationship. I know I had absolutely done that.

[xyzcf]

Our beliefs about marriage, children and family are formed during our earliest experiences in our own families as well as our cultural norms and religious formation.

Being a "team", working together and supporting one another is an ongoing process in a healthy marriage. The ability to communicate one's wants and needs, the willgness of another to support us and in turn our willingness to journey with them is what makes this intimate relationship different from others that we have in life.

Marriage is not just a contractual agreement for me. In my faith, it is the joining of two to become one flesh, a covenant made and vows exchanged before God.

Up until BD, he was as convinced of the sanctity of marriage as I am . When he broke the vows made to me, the promises made, I could not comprehend how this  most intimate partner could "change his mind".... as we all know, it was devastating and takes a considerable amount of time to recover from.

Not because our marriage was unhealthy or that we were too co-dependent, but because this betrayal, rejection and abandonment was from our spouse, not a coworker, not a friend, not even another family member...but a much deeper and more complex union than any other.

As for children, it doesn't matter if they are adults or not. Their family unit, the stability that they have known all their lives, their parent who has changed suddenly into someone they do not know...this does impact them greatly. Many people have written here of the issues their adult children are having, the therapy they have needed and the emptiness of a "broken" family.

I am in agreement with Kay Dee:

I see much more complexity. A marriage type partnership cannot be silo'ed in this way, it is intrinsically interwoven with our individual lives. We co-create so many things - children is the obvious co-creation - but also a home, an extended family, friends.

we don't have to be co-dependent to be fundamentally shaped by the marriage/partnership we chose. We co-create based on an emotional and physical bond and we trust in that third, shared entity.

Perhaps the danger is in the long term, if the LBSer cannot completely detach and build a life without their spouse. During the marriage, it is important to be independent and have a life separate from that of our partner. A marriage requires compromise at times and thinking that somehow our marriages were "unhealthy" seems to me to be rewriting history and somehow finding fault with our role in the breakup...when indeed, it truely is not about us or about the marriages we had.