[marvin4242]

A marriage requires compromise at times and thinking that somehow our marriages were "unhealthy" seems to me to be rewriting history and somehow finding fault with our role in the breakup...when indeed, it truely is not about us or about the marriages we had.

Thanks XYZCF I only want to make something very clear. I am in no way saying that marriages are "unhealthy" or rewriting history. I think it is absolutely possible to invest in the "3rd party," the common marriage, whatever ones religious or early upbringing shaped beliefs are. And still maintain a healthy separate individuals, both contributing, shaping, creating and nurturing the "3rd party." These things are not mutually incompatible. It does not remove the need to still maintain the separate individual, not dependent or placing ones core well being into the relationship. I made my own personal mistakes as I have shared where in my own work I placed a bit of my safety and the trust in the relationship, not in myself, and then from there contribute to the relationship.

Maintaining a healthy independent individual in no way diminishes a healthy strong relationship. There is a difference in trusting the 3rd entity in a bounded way than NEEDING the 3rd entity to be ok.

[Reinventing]

Maintaining a healthy independent individual in no way diminishes a healthy strong relationship.

I agree and think it actually strengthens the healthy relationship. No person can meet all the needs of another person and shouldn't be burdened to do that.

This doesn't mean that the relationship is less. It means that each person can have friends, personal and work interests and identities  that are specific to them that the other person respects.

It's a balance of how much a person compromises to be in a relationship. An abusive relationship would be one side of the pendulum and a completely cohabiting, disinterested,  transactional marriage on the other side of the pendulum.

I see Marvin describing what the middle and most healthy relationship could be so that the people in the marriage are healthy and the relationship is also healthy.

[MadLuv]

If we truly realize that the other parent is not a part of us, that we have no ability to shape their relationship and how they feel why can't you move forward? This is a question, not a statement to be clear

 I think it is just so complex. You picked this person. You feel responsible in many ways that you “stuck” your kids with this. Also, no matter how hard you try and do your best alone , you can’t make up for that missing piece for them. The rejection they feel. Also, it is that black cloud that isn’t being talked about, but is there. Also, the longer the marriage and normalcy that harder the change. I know when my daughter was given her dads briefcase with communication emails of an EA affair from 2011 she recently stated to her aunt that it changed everything for her. She doesn’t know him and how he came home to us for so long living a lie.

30 years of normal to insanity. They have to watch him parent someone elses adult kids while they ignore them. The trauma is just so much. From my kids to my nieces and nephews. Just so much pain. Time should help, but I think if he remains a lost soul that this will be a lifetime issue in our lives. I pray everyday he finds his way enough to reconnect with his kids. With that said I think we are all trying to just move forward, but our family is very fractured. It has changed the dynamics in a way that I can’t or haven’t completely found a way to repair it, but I continue to try.

[Evermore]

There is a saying: "As a parent, you are only ever as happy as your unhappiest child". I think it's very true.

[marvin4242]

I had an interesting bit of clarity that I wanted to share and add some of my thoughts here not to pollute other people story threads so here goes.

I was listening to a podcast and a thoughtful man was talking about the things that mattered in his life and he brought up how he is loved by his wife. And what he said clearly is something I personally believe and it was summed up like this: he knows that every day she chooses him and that act of being chosen is what make being loved valuable and real. I do not believe in "magical" ideas of love nor do I believe in religious definitions of marriage as a lifelong enforced bond. I believed that what my W and I shared was valuable because we CHOSE to share our lives for almost 23 years, whether married or not. Until the day she decided to no longer choose me.

And somewhere in the back of my mind this manifested into an interesting dream. I was in a room with my wife and she was actually clear and honest and her "old" self. I was asking her questions and she was answering truthfully. And all I remember was her calmly stating "I choose him" apparently in response to a question. And then I woke up.

Nothing shocking or revelatory, just my thoughts manifesting what is going on. And it occurred to me that the best course maybe that we can take is to accept that simple fact. Stop blaming menopause (oh that one is a doozy, women just go "crazy" obviously, maybe let's even say "hysterical" for those of you who know where that word comes from, I can't believe in 2023 there are people who still talk about hormones controlling behaviour of women ffs). Stop explaining how they are in pain (of course they are, but that is not a catch all explanation). Stop trying to "love them" to health, if that worked we would not need therapist, trauma specialists and psychiatrists. Accept simply that they are no longer choosing you. Yes it is painful. Yes it is life shattering. Yes it is a betrayal. And sadly it is simply what it is.

And I say all this as someone who still cares for the well being of a person I called my best friend for over two decades. And I have no anger, no animosity, and honestly accepted that what we had was over at least 5 years ago. But I also understand that it is all up to her, I am just someone who watches from afar. If a day comes and she ASKS for help AND I can help her I will. But as they, I am not holding my breath.

I have posted this song before, but it fits well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVoBR1AlVQ

[Nas]

Wow, what timing, I just the other day had a long conversation about “choosing” and “being chosen.” I suspect most here would resonate with your words. It was different in my marriage. True narcissists don’t value us for who we are, rather what we provide for them. The beauty of choosing your partner and having them choose you, someone seeing the value of “you,” there is unbelievable value in that.

I think respect for the people we care about is one of if not the most important thing, and it struck me that choosing to accept her choices also is a big testament to the value of what you shared.

[KayDee]

Great set of posts. I've been mulling it over while doing the housework  I think I am in accord, although I seem to snag a bit on the word choose. Maybe because I have a mental image of someone choosing between a blue sweater or a red one - or vanilla or strawberry icecream? There's a bit of objectification in this image I conjure. I do get the sense of this action of choice, but the snagging on the word - that's really interesting for me in terms of how we build relationships.

I also throw out some consideration for the bigger context of said choices. Is it possible that someone chooses from within the landscape they find themselves in - rather than solely on the other person?  And/or based on a belief that the choice is no longer there? e.g. they choose not to try and fix something or believe something is not fixable?

And, IMO we should ask ourselves the same question? Do we now choose our crisis partner? For me that is an equally important and can be overlooked when one didn't make the original 'choice'.

 All sort of rhetorical remarks and questions really, because ultimately it is still a set of choices. Thanks for such a thought-provoking post Marvin.

[marvin4242]

KayDee some interesting thoughts to mull over, thanks.

To clarify for me the idea of "choosing" is not about objects, rather emotional actions. Some people think "love" is something that "happens," you are "soul mates" or "lighting strikes." It is a passive construct, that somehow there is some "magic" that brings people together. I believe in another version that is used more commonly in some circles: we actively CHOOSE to invest our emotional energy and resources rather than passively. That doesn't mean that just anyone will do, but it does imply there is no single "person" for any of us. Rather if there is enough compatibility, overlap of needs and world views, or even in the tension of opposition there is a possibility for us to "choose" that this is the friend/partner/spouse we invest our emotional resources. And if we do this every day we keep building and rebuilding and evolving that relationship. Rather than "we got married and stagnated."

The best model I have seen is that this kind of "love" is like a container. Every day you fill and empty a different amount. And over time if you choose to "fill" more than "empty" then your container is full and that is what being "loved" is. And when people don't do that it simply empties out over time and they claim they have fallen "out of love."

And in the case of what happens to the psyche of some of our partners the vessel is shattered as part of the fracture. That is how they can go from "I love you" to nothing in such a short period of time. Healthy psyches can not change course and drain all the invested emotional currency that quickly.

[KayDee]

KayDee some interesting thoughts to mull over, thanks.

To clarify for me the idea of "choosing" is not about objects, rather emotional actions. Some people think "love" is something that "happens," you are "soul mates" or "lighting strikes." It is a passive construct, that somehow there is some "magic" that brings people together. I believe in another version that is used more commonly in some circles: we actively CHOOSE to invest our emotional energy and resources rather than passively. That doesn't mean that just anyone will do, but it does imply there is no single "person" for any of us. Rather if there is enough compatibility, overlap of needs and world views, or even in the tension of opposition there is a possibility for us to "choose" that this is the friend/partner/spouse we invest our emotional resources. And if we do this every day we keep building and rebuilding and evolving that relationship. Rather than "we got married and stagnated."

Oh, yes, I understood exactly what you were saying. And I have read that before, about love being a choices. So, I was just considering my reaction to the word, because it is often instructive, when we jar with something. Haven't come to any conclusions yet though. I too don't believe in the ol' classic lightening strike love event - attraction, yes, but love, no, that is nurtured and grown and nurtured. I mean, if it were true that there was only The One, we'd die out a species trying to find our matches in the billions of possibilities.  Would make a very boring film 

[zartheit]

And somewhere in the back of my mind this manifested into an interesting dream. I was in a room with my wife and she was actually clear and honest and her "old" self. I was asking her questions and she was answering truthfully. And all I remember was her calmly stating "I choose him" apparently in response to a question. And then I woke up.

I had a remarkably similar dream recently as well. In my dream, my ex-wife was the same as I remember her being though distraught. We were even talking (literally only in my dreams!). It ended with her telling me "I don't know why, but this is what I want". And I woke up. She would always tell me something to the effect of: the grass grows where you water it. While I never thought she would start watering somewhere else, that is what she's done.

Anyway, your dream was too similar for me to not share my own. To contribute a bit to this thread, I personally agree that love is a decision. Maybe to try to be more precise, while I can't pick which emotions I experience, I can decide how to manifest them. I, as I imagine everyone else here, still feel a great passive hope for the well-being of my ex-wife. I'm not, however, going to water the ground beneath her feet.