[Treasur]

That was really thought-provoking, SS, thank you x

[marvin4242]

Well I guess from some of the posts here that obviously the need to hold to an illusory and self reenforcing loop about unconditional love is indeed very strong. It’s almost as if there is a need to reject examination because it threatens something.

I personally have seen more healthy and effective compassion, caring, growth, nurturing and humanity from people in relationships and professionals who clearly practice bounded adult love than in situations that have involved “unconditional” love. I would even go as far as to say that “unconditional” love is really much more rooted in a kind of very self centered need and is not really about the other person. If I’m unbounded your needs and mine are by definition the same. I can only truly “see” and honor another person when I can “see” them outside of my own needs.

And honestly it is a form of hubris to suggest a deeper understanding rather than a simplistic view of love is because, to paraphrase, “you just haven’t experienced it.” I naively believed in “unconditional love” until I matured in my views and gained a much deeper understanding of humanity and emotions. The truest form of love I have received and hopefully have given have been since this understanding.

[Treasur]

That was really thought-provoking, SS, thank you x

To be clear, this was not about my xh or MLC but about finding ways to love with advanced dementia in the moment.

I respect other peoples’ right to see through their own lens and choose as they choose (which of course includes choosing the effects that come with that). And I don’t see love as a competitive sport where some ‘win’ medals and others don’t lol. However my own pov some years on regarding intimate relationships - and certainly wrt my xh - is probably closer to Marvin’s and Nas’s take.

[marvin4242]

To be clear, this was not about my xh or MLC but about finding ways to love with advanced dementia in the moment.

I can only imagine what kind of challenges and feelings this must bring up. It would require a kind of "selfless" love depending on what is going on with dementia at the moment. And maybe even something akin to how a parent loves their children, even if the relationship is reversed as we deal with aging parents. It embodies the idea of a bounded mature love, where it may be at times hard to even get anything in return. My partner works with dementia populations under care and I have learned from what she has shared from her masters work and experience.

And to address an earlier post: when I talk about "parent child unconditional love" I am talking about the ideal form. As you so correctly pointed out this is not what always happens in the real world, and there are giant deviations from this. But I hope that if parents are self aware and well informed they provide a very good version of that to allow children to develop in a healthy manner. But perfection is not needed. In some ways I see a lot of people still searching for some version of the child state love even in their adult relationships.

[FrenchHusband]

Thanks for this very interesting discussion regarding love, that is really inspiring for me to read your different comment and visions

As anyone can guess it reading my signature, I am in the "unconditionnal love" team, and in the same time I also believe that an healthy relationship means boundaries and limits.

In my LBS interior path, after BD I have reached the conclusion that the true sense of my existence is to learn to love as God loves us. So, how does God love us ? I have read, and I believe that God does not give us what we want, but what we need.
So for me to love as God loves means to give to the people I love what they need. And (as per my signature) to give without expecting return.
Then the question for me becomes : how to know what the people need ? I mean, what they really need. The answer is not easy, and I feel humble because often I don't know what people around me really need. To understand it, I have to really listen to them and try to understand them. Accept and respect who they are.

As it is written here, the best example for unconditionnal love is the "ideal" parent child relationship.
It is easier to undersand children, for sure. They need care, attention, a safe space to grow. And they need boundaries, they need limits. Who has tried to educate children without giving boundaries ? I believe those children will be very unhappy. For me, giving boundaries to the children is part of loving them.

The bible is a great love story between God and His people, we can see that God is setting up limits and boundaries. And God forgives also. In the story of the prodigal son, the father loves unconditionnaly his child, he gives the share of the estate without expecting return. The father "lets go" the ungrateful child, that is a big act of love. And in the same text, there are limits : the other share of the estate is a limit, it is out of the reach of the prodigal son : everything I have is yours, says the father to the eldest son (who is a bit bitter). There are likely other limits that are implicit in this text : it is not possible to have a dissipated, lustful and squandering life in front of the father. That is why the prodigal son goes to a distant country.

Now, what about our spouses ? Clearly we are not in a parent-child relationship. And I believe I can continue to love my wife even she is in the way to become soon my ex wife. I am not sure to know all the needs from W currently because she doesn't confide much, but I strongly believe she needs to go on her own path, and I give to her this freedom.

One other word about love. It is written "love your neighbour as yoursef". And I try to do this. My understanding of this verse is that the beginning of love is loving myself, knowing myself (gnothi seauton) and understanding my needs. In my LBS's path  since BD, as other LBSs in the forum, I have progressed on the love for all other people around me by beginning a work on myself and by increasing my daily prayer time. Working on myself is the greatest gift I have made to myself.

[marvin4242]

FrenchHusband thank you for sharing your very thoughtful views on this. For me you have captured perfectly the complexities of what I would call selfless (rather than unconditional) love. I have always tried to care for and be there for my wife, friends, and others without expecting things in return. But as you pointed out we can not truly know, understand or own the choices, feeling and consequences of decisions for others.

I think a lot of us have had to take a careful look inside ourselves and hopefully find more insight and wisdom about things we used to just "assume" we understood well. And as you said "working on myself is the greatest gift I have made to myself." I think a lot of us share in that view. And I would just like to add its a gift that also gives to the ones around us, as we become more self aware I believe we become much more able to care for others in a selfless way.

[marvin4242]

Its funny how there are layers or perspective and clarity that solidify as time goes on. I wanted to share the latest one.

When everything blew up, when I went from having a very close, sharing, loving relationship with my best friend to losing it all I was completely floored for a while. When I started to find some footing, followed the advice given, sought therapy and starting the hard work of rebuilding I started to discover over time how I had gotten to where I was.

And the truth is there was not much about the relationship that was wrong pre-BD, there were no "cracks" in our lives, etc. But I had really put most of my well being into the relationship as I have shared in the past. Over time I have reclaimed my safety, caring and meaning and make sure they come from WITHIN no matter how strong my external relationships are.

Still today I can see even more clearly how much I had put my well being into someone else, into OUR relationship. And today it seems a bit shocking and in some ways naive of me. I do not say that with any negative connotation, but with a lot of empathy. But what the h**k was I thinking?

Maybe that is part of the hard part of a good relationship, to maintain all the positives without "falling in." And if something does happen to let go of that old conception of what we believed was "right."

[Nas]

Maybe that is part of the hard part of a good relationship, to maintain all the positives without "falling in."

Raise your hand if you’re sick of hearing me talk about non attachment.  In relationships, it’s often misinterpreted, but partly it’s just what you said above. It’s not indifference or avoidance or emotional detachment/not caring. It’s really just enjoying a human connection without looking for it to provide validation or identity or approval. It’s no attachment to outcome. We know people are free to leave at any time, for their own reasons, we have that freedom as well, because we’re not bound by an outcome or a need to cling to the identity or status or whatever we made the relationship provide us. This applies to all relationships, romantic, platonic, whatever.

For obvious reasons to anyone who has read any of my posts over the years, I became attracted to exploring this when I first read something about non attachment being “not trying to get anything from anybody.” That caught me because it’s opposite of every single example I had in life and every single experience I had with relationships, be it family, friends or love relationships. As I delved deeper overtime, I found more and more that it fit with my worldview and how I want to show up in relationships. That’s just my half of the equation though. Obviously we only have control over what we bring to a partnership and we have to have the courage to trust the other person is honest and has good intentions, but I think the other thing that non-attachment allows us that makes it appealing to me is the ability to better trust our choices, allow for more accurate continued assessment, and more easily pivot when it makes sense for us or to bounce back from disappointment or even grief.

The things we learn from a BD, right?

[marvin4242]

Well as they say life keeps rolling along. I am mainly posting this update for everyone who is still looking for "whats ahead." This is one story.

So I am now firmly 7.5 years from first big BD. For the past 2 years my wife, who left after 2nd BD claiming she is never ever coming back home, has been living pretty much back at the house (and I have been staying elsewhere). About a month ago she let me know that she has decide to move (again), this time to Colorado. She claims its at least for six months but probably longer. She did ACTUALLY thank me for letting her stay at the house (which is new).

When I got back I found she has moved almost all her stuff with her (which is good, the house was packed with things). So I get to move back in and start setting things back up. What is funny is that she moved some heavy desks and other items she had bought (which would have been much easier to replace as they were not very expensive). But the amusing parts was when I realized she had taken the electric kettle and most of the pots and pans. Let me make clear the kettle was a basic Amazon one, and the pots are 20+ years old and really past prime.

What does any of it mean? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Trust me. This is the new "happy." I hope she find some calm and settles in in Colorado for a while (at least DON'T COME BACK this way!). She is probably around 30% better than she was when this all started, but she is not happy. And she is not ok. And she is still mostly self absorbed.

Oh and the day she was supposed to leave I got a text that she may not be gone when I get back, because she had packed the moving van and then lost the keys to said moving van. I would say I was surprised, but that would be a lie.

I'll close by saying don't read too much into anything that happens, even as they cycle better or worse, closer and further. If there is real change you will know it. Sadly my wife is settled into a new normal that I fear will never change. And I say that for her sake, I moved on with my life a long long time ago....

[sachertorte]

Appreciate your update! You sound so strong, full of clarity and goodwill, I feel a glow just reading your accounts. I know you don't expect anything, but I truly believe an objective measure of your ex-wife's well-being is her consciously appreciating all that you have done for her. It is the greatest gift anyone can give IMHO. You are an exemplary being. Much bliss to you always.